New Law To Protect People Defending Their Homes

piby

Good to see that they're doing something about this at long last! Too many people have been screwed over by the legal system the way it is!

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1214/justice.html

DOC09UNAM

RTE NEWS wrote:

The Law Reform Commission is recommending a new law of self defence that would allow a person kill in certain circumstances if defending themselves, their family or their home.

It is just one recommendation contained in the Commission's draft Criminal Law Bill to be published by Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern later today.

The most publicised case of someone acting in self defence was that of Co Mayo farmer Padraig Nally, who shot dead John Ward in October 2004.
Advertisement

Mr Nally was sentenced for six years for manslaughter but served 11 months of that term when he was acquitted after it was accepted that he acted in self defence.

In light of this, the Law Reform Commission has been reviewing the issue of self defence and is today recommending that it be renamed to 'legitimate defence'.

It could be a complete defence to murder and lead to an acquittal.

The Commission is also recommending that gardaí and prison officers be allowed use lethal force when doing their job such as when making arrests, dealing with serious public disorders or preventing prison escapes.

However, it clearly states that the use of force be only allowed used as a defence when it is necessary and proportionate.

The Commission also recommends that the defence of provocation be allowed in murder trials even in cases where the killing does not immediately follow the provocation.

It's about time.

minidazzler

Not gonna happen. They will not say "Yeah, Garda, you are allowed smash someones brain in if he is getting away,"

The Self Defence one is fair enough though! (Grabs gun) "Oh, Flanders, why don't you come over"

Sully

"Defening Their Homes" eh.

DOC09UNAM

Sully wrote: »

"Defening Their Homes" eh.

Simple Typo I'm sure, eh.

ejmaztec

Sully wrote: »

"Defening Their Homes" eh.

I knew they'd have a law allowing people to beat their noisy neighbours to death eventually.

stovelid

They really need to define - and extend, if necessary - the jurisdiction of Home.

I want to make sure I have full legal recourse before I start shooting carol singers through the door window.

richie spice

deadly:D

Mackleton

Definitely for the self defense one, if you can get done for defending yourself from an unprovoked attack by a lunatic in your house then it just shows how backward Ireland really is. Couldn't believe they actually convicted that poor old farmer up the country, fair enough they copped on after but still.

Not so sure about the lethal force business, but then again its not as if they carry guns anyway.

epgc3fyqirnbsx

With regards to protecting your home it seems that its just putting in black and white what they have been deciding in court already, that is that you can defend but your response of force must be proportionate, ie you can't shoot someone in the face if they stick their hand through your letterbox.
Also seem to be getting rid of that nonsense 'retreat first' rule that no court would ever even think of imposing.
Courts sometimes give judgements that are right to everyone sensabilities but maybe controversial with the current law, so then the legislature catches up. Which is ok by my book

With regards to cops and prison officers using lethal force, I couldn't imagine any of them actually using it but they would have the ability to threaten it.
Considering another poor young garda lost his life in Donegal today, R.I.P., I think that they're well entitled to it.
They have a particularly difficult job in Donegal with a lot of Derry scumbags coming in and causing absolute havoc, then driving hard to the boarder and willing to destroy anyone or anything to get there

geeky

Saw this in the Mail. 'You can kill burglars' ran the headline, could practically feel the writer's joy from six feet away.

ScumLord

stovelid wrote: »

They really need to define - and extend, if necessary - the jurisdiction of Home.

I want to make sure I have full legal recourse before I start shooting carol singers through the door window.

Home is where the heart is, always aim for the heart.

CreepingDeath

Time to rewatch "Home Alone" for hints on burglar booby traps.

GavRedKing

Going be a hard one to judge, although given the option a few months of go of having access to something big and blunt or sharp and stabby to use against an intruder in my home I would have done so and not though for a second about the law, as im sure the intruder didnt worry either when he decided to do what he did.

More power to people FTW

Mark200

I'm very confident that you can kill someone at the moment as self defence, as long as the force used was necessary.

But this to me sounds like it's legalising an excuse to intentionally kill someone. Not sure how I feel about that. I suppose in very limited circumstances it should be acceptable.

Victor

The article is only a suggestion, it is a long way from being law.

WindSock

To be honest, the 'law' would be the last thing going through my mind if a stranger was in my house willing to harm me.

Chucky the tree

Mackleton wrote: »

Definitely for the self defense one, if you can get done for defending yourself from an unprovoked attack by a lunatic in your house then it just shows how backward Ireland really is. Couldn't believe they actually convicted that poor old farmer up the country, fair enough they copped on after but still.

Not so sure about the lethal force business, but then again its not as if they carry guns anyway.

You can't get done for defending yourself from an attack. As for that "poor old farmer" lol. Hopefully this won't come anywhere close to being brought into law, one Nally case was enough to see how thick a big percentage of Irish people are.

iregk

'Defending their home' - they make it sound like your being bombarded by an all out assault.

I'm picture a family dressed in roman gear with the dad in the middle: "stay together, single colum, single colum" while waving his sword

CreepingDeath

I completed an NRA basic pistol safety course in the States and there was a topic on protecting the home.

Over there, if a burglar is leaving your home you can't shoot them.
There has to be a clear and present danger on your person, not your property.
If they are coming towards you, and they are not cornered / have a route of escape then it's permissible to shoot.

But you can't go Padraig McNally on them, chase them down and shoot them in the back. Which is a shame...

hooradiation

yes, how awful.

Sephiroth_dude

About bloody time.

dermo88

Back in my early days on boards.ie and also on p45.net, I had cause to comment, like many others on the controversial and divisive Patrick Nally case. Currently, I live overseas, in a developing country. If I have the "misfortune" of maiming or killing an intruder in my 'flat' (apartment) the police will shake my hand and play a game of pool with me over a beer or six.

And maybe smoke a joint or two and pop a couple of 'E's".

In Ireland, judging by the treatment of Patrick Nally, they will treat the likes of John Frog Ward like a victim, irrespective of the FACT that John Frog Ward had no less than 46 criminal convictions prior to his death.

Now.......I am not going to even risk a ban, on commenting on the community John Frog Ward came from, but ask some questions.

1. Do pubs close their doors because this particular community is known for their talent in pub quizzes?
2. Are we grateful for our own brand of 'traveller' having seen the kind that comes from Eastern Europe?
3. Other more horribly right wing questions may follow, which are poorly reflective of my character, but more so....of our society.
4. Those questions and their solutions are very final. This is because this grouping in society has failed to address their problems.

Read between the lines, and I hate it.

Overheal

minidazzler wrote: »

Not gonna happen. They will not say "Yeah, Garda, you are allowed smash someones brain in if he is getting away,"

I dont follow.

Sully wrote: »

"Defening Their Homes" eh.

Yeah man: Guns are loud.

Manic Moran

CreepingDeath wrote: »

I completed an NRA basic pistol safety course in the States and there was a topic on protecting the home.

Over there, if a burglar is leaving your home you can't shoot them.
There has to be a clear and present danger on your person, not your property.

Differs from State to State. In California, we've had a Castle Doctrine for years. You're not allowed to kill in defence of property, but it is written into the law that if someone breaks into your house, you are presumed to have a reasonable fear for your life. Not a guarantee, the prosecution could try to prove otherwise if there were certain circumstances, but it's a presumption in your favour.

In Texas, you can shoot someone for stealing your neighbour's TV. Or in that case last year, two or three people.

Castle Doctrines generally only apply to the home. (A man's home is his castle). Again, the definition of home varies, in some States it's the house, in some it's any building on the property, and in some cases it's the property, period.

A more liberal version of the doctrine which is becoming popular in a number of States is known as the "Stand your ground" law. These laws provide immunity from penalty if you are somewhere where you have every legal right to be, be it your front lawn or a shopping street. Prior to that, if you had an escape route, or some other way of not killing someone, you were supposed to take it. Which is a wonderful idea in theory, but can you imagine having the tactical environment Monday-morning-quarterbacked by a jury of 12 private citizens?

NTM

Gmol

If people are breaking into your home why can you not use whatever force you want, they are not in there for the good of your health. If my wife & child are in the house and it is broken into I regard that as a threat to their safety as I don't know what there intentions are

Overheal

Manic Moran wrote: »

In Texas, you can shoot someone for stealing your neighbour's TV. Or in that case last year, two or three people.

Epic!

Stupid. But Epic.

genericguy

dermo88 wrote: »

In Ireland, judging by the treatment of Patrick Nally, they will treat the likes of John Frog Ward like a victim, irrespective of the FACT that John Frog Ward had no less than 46 criminal convictions prior to his death.

Now.......I am not going to even risk a ban, on commenting on the community John Frog Ward came from, but ask some questions.

1. Do pubs close their doors because this particular community is known for their talent in pub quizzes?
2. Are we grateful for our own brand of 'traveller' having seen the kind that comes from Eastern Europe?
3. Other more horribly right wing questions may follow, which are poorly reflective of my character, but more so....of our society.
4. Those questions and their solutions are very final. This is because this grouping in society has failed to address their problems.

Read between the lines, and I hate it.

i don't see your point. it is far more likely that the person breaking into your house will be anto or deco frm up the road looking for money for some skag, rather than a member of the travelling community.

at any rate though, i wouldn't discriminate against anyone who broke into my house based on their race, i'd batter every intruder equally.

nice1franko

WindSock wrote: »

To be honest, the 'law' would be the last thing going through my mind if a stranger was in my house willing to harm me.

Defo. I'd be in extreme flight or fight mode and fukc knows what I'd do.

Manic Moran

It is worth noting that a couple of years ago, the Italians changed their laws to, in effect, make it legal to shoot burglars. It's not commonly known, but there are a lot of guns in Italy, as you would expect from the land of Beretta and Benelli.

NTM

kincsem

The leaflet delivery people will be looking for danger money. When does the hunting season begin?

SEPT 23 1989

All that will happen now is that the scumbags will carry handguns rather than screwdrivers when robbing your home,a lot of innocent people will lose their lives over this

aDeener

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

All that will happen now is that the scumbags will carry handguns rather than screwdrivers when robbing your home,a lot of innocent people will lose their lives over this

they carry guns as it stands! :rolleyes:

SEPT 23 1989

aDeener wrote: »

they carry guns as it stands! :rolleyes:

no they dont they are scum but they are not complete fools

Capt'n Midnight

Reese Abundant Campus wrote: »

you can't shoot someone in the face if they stick their hand through your letterbox.

:rolleyes:

Until you open the door you can only shoot them in the hand.

ScumLord

dermo88 wrote: »

In Ireland, judging by the treatment of Patrick Nally, they will treat the likes of John Frog Ward like a victim, irrespective of the FACT that John Frog Ward had no less than 46 criminal convictions prior to his death.

I doubt that, I was quite surprised to be on a bus going down Gilmartin road after that happened full of people cheering. Travelers get no respect in this country and most people supported Nally, he even got off really lightly considering he went out and shot the guy in the back. The vast majority of Irish people applauded his actions.


I'm not picking any sides or saying whats right or wrong, I'm just saying your way off the mark if you think travelers are anything but despised in this country, that's just a fact of life.

Chucky the tree

dermo88 wrote: »

Back in my early days on boards.ie and also on p45.net, I had cause to comment, like many others on the controversial and divisive Patrick Nally case. Currently, I live overseas, in a developing country. If I have the "misfortune" of maiming or killing an intruder in my 'flat' (apartment) the police will shake my hand and play a game of pool with me over a beer or six.

And maybe smoke a joint or two and pop a couple of 'E's".

In Ireland, judging by the treatment of Patrick Nally, they will treat the likes of John Frog Ward like a victim, irrespective of the FACT that John Frog Ward had no less than 46 criminal convictions prior to his death.

Now.......I am not going to even risk a ban, on commenting on the community John Frog Ward came from, but ask some questions.

1. Do pubs close their doors because this particular community is known for their talent in pub quizzes?
2. Are we grateful for our own brand of 'traveller' having seen the kind that comes from Eastern Europe?
3. Other more horribly right wing questions may follow, which are poorly reflective of my character, but more so....of our society.
4. Those questions and their solutions are very final. This is because this grouping in society has failed to address their problems.

Read between the lines, and I hate it.

Says it all really.

Jesus Juice

Nice one.

Its good to know a burglar can now get a face full of a hurley if he tries to rob our house.

stovelid

dermo88 wrote: »

And maybe smoke a joint or two and pop a couple of 'E's".

I've often wondered how one would "pop" these Es of which you speak.

Jesus Juice

stovelid wrote: »

I've often wondered how one would "pop" these Es of which you speak.

Presumably,like popping a boner?

Overheal

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

no they dont they are scum but they are not complete fools

You'd think that.

The irony of course being this man shot at the Gardai through his own front door.

Oh and more to your point, there was this. And this. Just two, very recent cases of scumbags with guns.

A google search for Dublin Shooting is too easy, tbh.

stovelid

Jesus Juice wrote: »

Presumably,like popping a boner?

Excellent. So if you rub Es, they get bigger?

DonkeyStyle \o/

RTE NEWS wrote:

The Commission is also recommending that gardaí and prison officers be allowed use lethal force when doing their job such as when making arrests, dealing with serious public disorders or preventing prison escapes.

I remember hearing some of the lisbon 'no' voters mentioning this exact lethal force issue, apparently it was in some lisbon treaty foot note. I can't find anything about it from searching the text of the actual treaty, and there was an awful lot of scaremongering, so maybe it's total arse. (maybe someone who actually knows the treaty well can shed some light)
Interesting timing though, why now?
If this is about Ireland getting in line with the lisbon treaty, then I don't think this proposal is going away.

If that's why they're doing this, it really makes the home/self-defence aspect look like sugar coating... "yes, yes, wonderful self defence for everyone, free padraig nally... and oh by the way police can lawfully kill you"
I think this is what the debate really needs to be about.

The_Minister

piby wrote: »

Good to see that they're doing something about this at long last! Too many people have been screwed over by the legal system the way it is!

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1214/justice.html

Who has been screwed over?

The_Minister

dermo88 wrote: »

In Ireland, judging by the treatment of Patrick Nally, they will treat the likes of John Frog Ward like a victim, irrespective of the FACT that John Frog Ward had no less than 46 criminal convictions prior to his death.

He was the victim.
Being guilty of many crimes, be they prostitution, drug-dealing or stealing, doesn't take away the right to life - we don't have the death penalty.

Look:
Man attacks you, you kill him - grand (within reason).
You shoot man, he is crawling away, doubtless crying in fear, you enter house, reload, come back outside and finish him in cold blood - not ok.

dermo88 wrote: »

Now.......I am not going to even risk a ban, on commenting on the community John Frog Ward came from, but ask some questions.

1. Do pubs close their doors because this particular community is known for their talent in pub quizzes?
2. Are we grateful for our own brand of 'traveller' having seen the kind that comes from Eastern Europe?
3. Other more horribly right wing questions may follow, which are poorly reflective of my character, but more so....of our society.
4. Those questions and their solutions are very final. This is because this grouping in society has failed to address their problems.

Read between the lines, and I hate it.

:eek: OMG, I just got that now.

stovelid

The_Minister wrote: »

Man attacks you, you kill him - grand (within reason).
You shoot man, he is crawling away, doubtless crying in fear, you enter house, reload, come back outside and finish him in cold blood - not ok.

Unfortunately to the baying mob that often comprises public opinion in this country, it is OK.

Liam Byrne

ScumLord wrote: »

Travelers get no respect in this country and most people supported Nally, he even got off really lightly considering he went out and shot the guy in the back. The vast majority of Irish people applauded his actions.

If "travellers get no respect", it's partially because groups like Pavee Point try to defend the indefensible.

If an individual traveller (or anyone) commits a crime, or intimidates someone, or gets drunk and violent, or even leaves a place in a complete mess, then groups like this should not defend them, because the resultant opinion because of their actions is that they all defend and condone it.

And this isn't just a traveller issue; reading through the papers about people who get off lightly for assault based on some half-assed excuse or on the basis that they can't control themselves after drinking too much is sickening.

Likewise, any "foreign" criminals and scumbags should be dealt with without accusations of racism, while those who behave and don't excuse/condone the thugs should be welcomed and supported.

ScumLord wrote: »

I'm not picking any sides or saying whats right or wrong, I'm just saying your way off the mark if you think travelers are anything but despised in this country, that's just a fact of life.

Decent, respectful, law-abiding travellers citizens are OK by me; others who impose on law-abiding people or start rows over nothing or drink too much or intimidate people are not.

And that is a just fact of life.

I couldn't give a bollox what religion, race, ethnicity someone is; if they're sound, they're sound. But if they excuse objectionable behaviour then they're obviously not sound.

Liam Byrne

The_Minister wrote: »

....doubtless crying in fear......

Sorry, but that's an attempt at emotive bull****! :mad:

What about the householder who was crying in fear ?

The bottom line is that if a scumbag doesn't break in or threaten you, they've nothing to "cry in fear" about.

And if they do, any resulting occurrences are 100% based on their decision to be a thug.

epgc3fyqirnbsx

dermo88 wrote: »

Back in my early days on boards.ie and also on p45.net, I had cause to comment, like many others on the controversial and divisive Patrick Nally case. Currently, I live overseas, in a developing country. If I have the "misfortune" of maiming or killing an intruder in my 'flat' (apartment) the police will shake my hand and play a game of pool with me over a beer or six.

And maybe smoke a joint or two and pop a couple of 'E's".

In Ireland, judging by the treatment of Patrick Nally, they will treat the likes of John Frog Ward like a victim, irrespective of the FACT that John Frog Ward had no less than 46 criminal convictions prior to his death.

Now.......I am not going to even risk a ban, on commenting on the community John Frog Ward came from, but ask some questions.

1. Do pubs close their doors because this particular community is known for their talent in pub quizzes?
2. Are we grateful for our own brand of 'traveller' having seen the kind that comes from Eastern Europe?
3. Other more horribly right wing questions may follow, which are poorly reflective of my character, but more so....of our society.
4. Those questions and their solutions are very final. This is because this grouping in society has failed to address their problems.

Read between the lines, and I hate it.

Jeebus! Are you proposing a final solution!?
Might make 'em sweat under the collar anyway...

The_Minister

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Sorry, but that's an attempt at emotive bull****! :mad:

What about the householder who was crying in fear ?

The bottom line is that if a scumbag doesn't break in or threaten you, they've nothing to "cry in fear" about.

And if they do, any resulting occurrences are 100% based on their decision to be a thug.

In that case the man had been shot. With a shotgun. And beaten IIRC.
He was trying to crawl away, when the man came back out, with a loaded shotgun, and blew him away there and then.

Had the first shot killed him, I wouldn't have cared, but only a coward kills a man whose shot and bleeding on the ground, trying to retreat, and no honourable man would defend one who did so.

SEPT 23 1989

Overheal wrote: »

You'd think that.

The irony of course being this man shot at the Gardai through his own front door.

Oh and more to your point, there was this. And this. Just two, very recent cases of scumbags with guns.

A google search for Dublin Shooting is too easy, tbh.

All those examples you give are of organised crime
im talking about the average small time burgler who breaks into houses they do not carry guns