New Law To Protect People Defending Their Homes

piby · 14-12-2009 04:06PM #1

Good to see that they're doing something about this at long last! Too many people have been screwed over by the legal system the way it is!

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1214/justice.html

DOC09UNAM · 14-12-2009 04:08PM

RTE NEWS wrote:

The Law Reform Commission is recommending a new law of self defence that would allow a person kill in certain circumstances if defending themselves, their family or their home.

It is just one recommendation contained in the Commission's draft Criminal Law Bill to be published by Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern later today.

The most publicised case of someone acting in self defence was that of Co Mayo farmer Padraig Nally, who shot dead John Ward in October 2004.
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Mr Nally was sentenced for six years for manslaughter but served 11 months of that term when he was acquitted after it was accepted that he acted in self defence.

In light of this, the Law Reform Commission has been reviewing the issue of self defence and is today recommending that it be renamed to 'legitimate defence'.

It could be a complete defence to murder and lead to an acquittal.

The Commission is also recommending that gardaí and prison officers be allowed use lethal force when doing their job such as when making arrests, dealing with serious public disorders or preventing prison escapes.

However, it clearly states that the use of force be only allowed used as a defence when it is necessary and proportionate.

The Commission also recommends that the defence of provocation be allowed in murder trials even in cases where the killing does not immediately follow the provocation.

It's about time.

minidazzler · 14-12-2009 04:09PM

Not gonna happen. They will not say "Yeah, Garda, you are allowed smash someones brain in if he is getting away,"

The Self Defence one is fair enough though! (Grabs gun) "Oh, Flanders, why don't you come over"

Sully · 14-12-2009 04:09PM

"Defening Their Homes" eh.

DOC09UNAM · 14-12-2009 04:10PM

Sully wrote: »

"Defening Their Homes" eh.

Simple Typo I'm sure, eh.

ejmaztec · 14-12-2009 04:12PM

Sully wrote: »

"Defening Their Homes" eh.

I knew they'd have a law allowing people to beat their noisy neighbours to death eventually.

stovelid · 14-12-2009 04:17PM

They really need to define - and extend, if necessary - the jurisdiction of Home.

I want to make sure I have full legal recourse before I start shooting carol singers through the door window.

richie spice · 14-12-2009 04:18PM

deadly:D

Mackleton · 14-12-2009 04:19PM

Definitely for the self defense one, if you can get done for defending yourself from an unprovoked attack by a lunatic in your house then it just shows how backward Ireland really is. Couldn't believe they actually convicted that poor old farmer up the country, fair enough they copped on after but still.

Not so sure about the lethal force business, but then again its not as if they carry guns anyway.

epgc3fyqirnbsx · 14-12-2009 04:22PM

With regards to protecting your home it seems that its just putting in black and white what they have been deciding in court already, that is that you can defend but your response of force must be proportionate, ie you can't shoot someone in the face if they stick their hand through your letterbox.
Also seem to be getting rid of that nonsense 'retreat first' rule that no court would ever even think of imposing.
Courts sometimes give judgements that are right to everyone sensabilities but maybe controversial with the current law, so then the legislature catches up. Which is ok by my book

With regards to cops and prison officers using lethal force, I couldn't imagine any of them actually using it but they would have the ability to threaten it.
Considering another poor young garda lost his life in Donegal today, R.I.P., I think that they're well entitled to it.
They have a particularly difficult job in Donegal with a lot of Derry scumbags coming in and causing absolute havoc, then driving hard to the boarder and willing to destroy anyone or anything to get there

geeky · 14-12-2009 04:28PM

Saw this in the Mail. 'You can kill burglars' ran the headline, could practically feel the writer's joy from six feet away.

ScumLord · 14-12-2009 04:28PM

stovelid wrote: »

They really need to define - and extend, if necessary - the jurisdiction of Home.

I want to make sure I have full legal recourse before I start shooting carol singers through the door window.

Home is where the heart is, always aim for the heart.

CreepingDeath · 14-12-2009 04:30PM

Time to rewatch "Home Alone" for hints on burglar booby traps.

GavRedKing · 14-12-2009 04:41PM

Going be a hard one to judge, although given the option a few months of go of having access to something big and blunt or sharp and stabby to use against an intruder in my home I would have done so and not though for a second about the law, as im sure the intruder didnt worry either when he decided to do what he did.

More power to people FTW

Mark200 · 14-12-2009 04:45PM

I'm very confident that you can kill someone at the moment as self defence, as long as the force used was necessary.

But this to me sounds like it's legalising an excuse to intentionally kill someone. Not sure how I feel about that. I suppose in very limited circumstances it should be acceptable.

Victor · 14-12-2009 04:49PM

The article is only a suggestion, it is a long way from being law.

WindSock · 14-12-2009 04:50PM

To be honest, the 'law' would be the last thing going through my mind if a stranger was in my house willing to harm me.

Chucky the tree · 14-12-2009 05:02PM

Mackleton wrote: »

Definitely for the self defense one, if you can get done for defending yourself from an unprovoked attack by a lunatic in your house then it just shows how backward Ireland really is. Couldn't believe they actually convicted that poor old farmer up the country, fair enough they copped on after but still.

Not so sure about the lethal force business, but then again its not as if they carry guns anyway.

You can't get done for defending yourself from an attack. As for that "poor old farmer" lol. Hopefully this won't come anywhere close to being brought into law, one Nally case was enough to see how thick a big percentage of Irish people are.

iregk · 14-12-2009 05:02PM

'Defending their home' - they make it sound like your being bombarded by an all out assault.

I'm picture a family dressed in roman gear with the dad in the middle: "stay together, single colum, single colum" while waving his sword

CreepingDeath · 14-12-2009 05:03PM

I completed an NRA basic pistol safety course in the States and there was a topic on protecting the home.

Over there, if a burglar is leaving your home you can't shoot them.
There has to be a clear and present danger on your person, not your property.
If they are coming towards you, and they are not cornered / have a route of escape then it's permissible to shoot.

But you can't go Padraig McNally on them, chase them down and shoot them in the back. Which is a shame...

hooradiation · 14-12-2009 05:05PM

yes, how awful.

Sephiroth_dude · 14-12-2009 05:26PM

About bloody time.

dermo88 · 14-12-2009 05:29PM

Back in my early days on boards.ie and also on p45.net, I had cause to comment, like many others on the controversial and divisive Patrick Nally case. Currently, I live overseas, in a developing country. If I have the "misfortune" of maiming or killing an intruder in my 'flat' (apartment) the police will shake my hand and play a game of pool with me over a beer or six.

And maybe smoke a joint or two and pop a couple of 'E's".

In Ireland, judging by the treatment of Patrick Nally, they will treat the likes of John Frog Ward like a victim, irrespective of the FACT that John Frog Ward had no less than 46 criminal convictions prior to his death.

Now.......I am not going to even risk a ban, on commenting on the community John Frog Ward came from, but ask some questions.

1. Do pubs close their doors because this particular community is known for their talent in pub quizzes?
2. Are we grateful for our own brand of 'traveller' having seen the kind that comes from Eastern Europe?
3. Other more horribly right wing questions may follow, which are poorly reflective of my character, but more so....of our society.
4. Those questions and their solutions are very final. This is because this grouping in society has failed to address their problems.

Read between the lines, and I hate it.

Overheal · 14-12-2009 05:38PM

minidazzler wrote: »

Not gonna happen. They will not say "Yeah, Garda, you are allowed smash someones brain in if he is getting away,"

I dont follow.

Sully wrote: »

"Defening Their Homes" eh.

Yeah man: Guns are loud.

Manic Moran · 14-12-2009 05:41PM

CreepingDeath wrote: »

I completed an NRA basic pistol safety course in the States and there was a topic on protecting the home.

Over there, if a burglar is leaving your home you can't shoot them.
There has to be a clear and present danger on your person, not your property.

Differs from State to State. In California, we've had a Castle Doctrine for years. You're not allowed to kill in defence of property, but it is written into the law that if someone breaks into your house, you are presumed to have a reasonable fear for your life. Not a guarantee, the prosecution could try to prove otherwise if there were certain circumstances, but it's a presumption in your favour.

In Texas, you can shoot someone for stealing your neighbour's TV. Or in that case last year, two or three people.

Castle Doctrines generally only apply to the home. (A man's home is his castle). Again, the definition of home varies, in some States it's the house, in some it's any building on the property, and in some cases it's the property, period.

A more liberal version of the doctrine which is becoming popular in a number of States is known as the "Stand your ground" law. These laws provide immunity from penalty if you are somewhere where you have every legal right to be, be it your front lawn or a shopping street. Prior to that, if you had an escape route, or some other way of not killing someone, you were supposed to take it. Which is a wonderful idea in theory, but can you imagine having the tactical environment Monday-morning-quarterbacked by a jury of 12 private citizens?

NTM

Gmol · 14-12-2009 05:45PM

If people are breaking into your home why can you not use whatever force you want, they are not in there for the good of your health. If my wife & child are in the house and it is broken into I regard that as a threat to their safety as I don't know what there intentions are

Overheal · 14-12-2009 05:49PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

In Texas, you can shoot someone for stealing your neighbour's TV. Or in that case last year, two or three people.

Epic!

Stupid. But Epic.

genericguy · 14-12-2009 05:49PM

dermo88 wrote: »

In Ireland, judging by the treatment of Patrick Nally, they will treat the likes of John Frog Ward like a victim, irrespective of the FACT that John Frog Ward had no less than 46 criminal convictions prior to his death.

Now.......I am not going to even risk a ban, on commenting on the community John Frog Ward came from, but ask some questions.

1. Do pubs close their doors because this particular community is known for their talent in pub quizzes?
2. Are we grateful for our own brand of 'traveller' having seen the kind that comes from Eastern Europe?
3. Other more horribly right wing questions may follow, which are poorly reflective of my character, but more so....of our society.
4. Those questions and their solutions are very final. This is because this grouping in society has failed to address their problems.

Read between the lines, and I hate it.

i don't see your point. it is far more likely that the person breaking into your house will be anto or deco frm up the road looking for money for some skag, rather than a member of the travelling community.

at any rate though, i wouldn't discriminate against anyone who broke into my house based on their race, i'd batter every intruder equally.

nice1franko · 14-12-2009 05:54PM

WindSock wrote: »

To be honest, the 'law' would be the last thing going through my mind if a stranger was in my house willing to harm me.

Defo. I'd be in extreme flight or fight mode and fukc knows what I'd do.

Manic Moran · 14-12-2009 06:08PM

It is worth noting that a couple of years ago, the Italians changed their laws to, in effect, make it legal to shoot burglars. It's not commonly known, but there are a lot of guns in Italy, as you would expect from the land of Beretta and Benelli.

NTM

kincsem · 14-12-2009 06:11PM

The leaflet delivery people will be looking for danger money. When does the hunting season begin?

New Law To Protect People Defending Their Homes

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