TV's with DVB-T2 (DTT) AND Satellite Tuners

championc

Hi all,

Are there TV's with standard Analog UHF / VHF tuners but then have BOTH DTT and Satelite Tuners Integrated ? I have an Old Sky box which I only use for Free-To-Air channels but would be interested in replacing my TV to one which has this and ALSO an MPEG-4 / 5 Tuner for the Irish DTT.

I read another posting by someone who mentioned a Panasonic model with an Ethernet connector - what is this used for ?


Cormac

M00lers

The Pioneer KRP500A has all of these but the EPG software is a pig to use. A seperate box would be better in my opinion.

championc

I don't think I even go as big as a 42" let alone a 50" !! Anything in the 32 or 36's ? Or who are likely do to do them once the UK start producing sets with MPEG-4 tuners for Freeview-HD ?

And what are Ethernet connectors intended to be used for ?


C

steveq

The Panasonic TX32LZD81 (also available as a 37") Freesat models have connectors for Satellite and UHV / VHF aerials.
Freesat models only available in the UK though.
I can tune into the Irish DTT and Analogue transmissions and can also receive Freesat directly.

There is a new model out now (mine is about 10 months old) and I assume it can do the same.

fat-tony

I don't think there are any DVB-T2 TVs available yet. STBs are starting to come on stream only now with the implementation in the UK.

No DVB-T2 implemented in Ireland - but it's a "hot-button" topic with some posters on this forum:D

mrdtv

fat-tony wrote: »

I don't think there are any DVB-T2 TVs available yet. STBs are starting to come on stream only now with the implementation in the UK.

No DVB-T2 implemented in Ireland - but it's a "hot-button" topic with some posters on this forum:D

DVB-T2/Freesat TVs will be available at the end of 2010 from Panasonic and Sony: the TV of choice in Ireland perhaps?

championc

I thought that DVB-T = MPEG2 (UK Freeview) and that DVB-T2 = MPEG-4 (Irish DTT and UK Freeview HD) - No ?


C

mrdtv

championc wrote: »

I thought that DVB-T = MPEG2 (UK Freeview) and that DVB-T2 = MPEG-4 (Irish DTT and UK Freeview HD) - No ?


C

No.

DVB-T2 = UK Freeview HD

DVB-S2 = Sky HD + Freesat

Both are MPEG4 based services.

Freeview currently = MPEG2 DVB-T1

Irish DTT proposed = MPEG4 DVB-T1

So a T2/S2 receiver will also do T1/S1. Perfect solution.

championc

Can Freesat equiped TV's tune into any Channels from Astra at 28.6e (or any other satellites for that matter) ?

STB

mrdtv wrote: »

DVB-T2/Freesat TVs will be available at the end of 2010 from Panasonic and Sony: the TV of choice in Ireland perhaps?

Probably not. They are availble now. DVB-T2 is irrelevant to Ireland in the short to medium term - next 5 years anyway.

Freesat TVs have been available on the market to work with Irish MPEG4 TV for over a year now although not advertised over here as such. DVB-T2 models will not be able to compete with the current prices of MPEG4 on DVBT and or combo models. DVB-T2 TVs or TV combos not available yet anyway.

Panasonic infact have launched 2 Freesat/DTT ranges for DVB-T1 in the last year and a quarter. The PZ81/LZD81 range and then the G10s. Both should be avoided like the plague as Panasonic have taken short cuts with the service types defined on DVB-T and have adopted a special UK profile mantra as a smokescreen. In short don’t buy one as it avoids headaches updating and overwriting the memory with an SD card.

The LG LF7700 does however tick all the boxes for HD Freesat and Irish DTT and are full HD (and have MHEG5).

LG 47LF7700 699 Richer Sounds (was 599 a few weeks back)
LG 42LF7700 599 Richer Sounds

There is also a 32 and 37. Shop around I’ve seen the 32 for as low as 399 STG in the UK.

OP please note that nearly all Freesat Combo TVs will not have a VHF analogue tuner. Believe it or not some people have bought these thinking they could use also use them for analogue NTL which defeats the purpose of course of a free TV combo anyway.

And just to correct a few misleading comments above.

Irish DTT - MPEG4 on DVB-T. MHEG5
Freesat Tuner - MPEG4 HD for HD channels - all other channels broadcast in MPEG2 which MPEG4 can also display.

You will therefore not need the DVB-T2 tuner (which only replicates the HD channels available on Satellite)

Don’t be misled.

UK will continue to broadcast MPEG2 on DVB-T for the 95% of stations for a long time to come alongside maybe up to 4 (but initially 2) MPEG4 HD stations on dvb-t2.

This technology is years down the road before it comes commercially and economically attractive to the British never mind the Irish who are using different technology and for which adequate technology is commercially and easily available on an affordable basis.

Mike 1972

DVB-T2 is irrelevant to Ireland in the short to medium term - next 5 years anyway.

Even the parts of Ireland which can get "Freeview HD" signals from the UK ?

mrdtv

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Even the parts of Ireland which can get "Freeview HD" signals from the UK ?

Bullseye! Availability of BBCHD, ITVHD, 4HD and 5HD without cards or subs will be a key driver for this service. Most IDTV vendors in EU are preparing the transition to T2. Note that Freesat is unlikely to carry 4HD or 5HD for the foreseeable future due to the lack of space on Astra 2D with its tighter footprint. I would not be remotely surprised if Irish DTT had not been launched by this time next year for the usual reasons, despite the unwillingness to acknowledge the economic issues by some enthusiasts on this board. We will see...

Souriau

championc wrote: »

Can Freesat equiped TV's tune into any Channels from Astra at 28.6e (or any other satellites for that matter) ?

LG LF77** does have FreeSat and also you can scan other channels from Astra
Press FreeSat button will get you the FreeSat channels
Press FreeSat button again will get you non-FreeSat channles

Souriau

championc wrote: »

Hi all,

Are there TV's with standard Analog UHF / VHF tuners but then have BOTH DTT and Satelite Tuners Integrated ? I have an Old Sky box which I only use for Free-To-Air channels but would be interested in replacing my TV to one which has this and ALSO an MPEG-4 / 5 Tuner for the Irish DTT.

I read another posting by someone who mentioned a Panasonic model with an Ethernet connector - what is this used for ?


Cormac

LG LF77** does have
both analouge tuners, UHF and VHF,
Digital Tuner with MPEG-4 and MPEG-2 with MHEG5 for both UK and Irish DTT
Satellite Digital tuner, FreeSat and Non-FreeSat, both SD and HD

Souriau

championc wrote: »

I don't think I even go as big as a 42" let alone a 50" !! Anything in the 32 or 36's ? Or who are likely do to do them once the UK start producing sets with MPEG-4 tuners for Freeview-HD ?

And what are Ethernet connectors intended to be used for ?


C

Future use for BBC iPlayer

slegs

The latest Sony W5800 Freesat range should be perfect for Ireland. It is Sony's first foray into freesat and their MPEG4 TVs have been the most compatible (EPG, MHEG5 dig teletext) since the beginning.

Its DVB-T / DVB-S2(Freesat) with MPEG4 and MHEG5 and full 7 day EPG by the way.

Anyone got one? How is the EPG switching handled? Can they be merged?

championc

Souriau wrote: »

Future use for BBC iPlayer

Is it likely that all manufacturers will start incorporating Ethernet sockets on the UK TV's for this ?

I'm beginning to lean from Pana towards LG. Does the LG LF77** support DVB-T2 ? I don't think there's any point in me looking at a new Tele until I can somewhat futureproof myself. There's nothing wrong with my current set (CRT) so I'm in no immediate hurry to change

fat-tony

You can't really futureproof yourself in these times of rapid technological change. The best you can hope for is a window of about 6 -12 months before the "next big thing":)
That said, DVB-T2 is of no real use to you unless you live in a border area or on the East coast where there is a possibility of reception from High-Def UK DTT transmitters. RTENL are using DVB-T transmitters at the moment, so you won't need DVB-T2 until they decide to migrate. Ethernet sockets on the TV may be useful if you want to stream media to it from a home PC or media centre. The BBC i-player service is restricted to UK IP addresses at the moment, so it's not really usable in Ireland unless you have access to a proxy service. RTE might extend their web-based player service to MHEG at some time in the future. In any case it's a good way to use up your monthly bandwidth allowance;)

"STB's" posts are a good indicator of useful TV purchases. The magic words to look for are DVB-S2, DVB-T, MPEG4, MHEG5 if you are looking for a fully capable receiver.

But really, if you want to store programme material, you're going to be looking for a PVR of some sort. Then it is the device that needs to be as futureproof as you can make it. The display device, in that case, doesn't need any tuner - just the ability to display a high-definition picture via HDMI. You could even retain your old CRT assuming it has a SCART socket, for SD picture viewing. Problem is, a set-top box or PVR which does everything doesn't exist just right now:( I use a Humax Freesat PVR for satellite reception including HD and MHEG. I have a separate Mvision box which does HD satellite and MPEG4 DTT, but doesn't support MHEG.

Once the UK HD DTT rolls out (started this month), the box manufacturers will start producing combo STBs which will provide, hopefully, all the facilities needed. Then someone will announce super-HD and we'll all be looking for replacement technology again:D

championc

Many thanks for your update and thoughts. I am in Dublin (Ballinteer) and get my UK stations from Divis and have recently put a digital LNB on my old dish so coupled with an old Sky Box, I've plenty of options.

However, what do you think the chances are of Ireland jumping into DVB-T2 ? Is this the million dollar question ? It sounds like there could be many very disappointed people if it's decided to go for T2, especially with the launch of it now in the UK

L1011

We've an agreed spec and T2 is not it. Its not going to happen for standard SD reception.

fat-tony

+1 as regards T2. The DVB-T spec for Ireland does not include T2. The issue is more of an immediate problem in the UK, where terrestrial HD will only be available on T2 equipped STBs or receivers. Wait for that stink to die down first;)
As regards LNBs - they are not specifically "digital" in nature - they are part of the antenna system. Universal LNBs handle all signals in the analogue domain and just down convert the signal from satellite frequencies to 950 - 2000Mhz on the cable so that the receiver can demodulate it into the digital domain. The newer receivers used for digital reception are designed to work with universal LNBs, but general purpose FTA receivers have menu functions which will allow them to work with different LNBs. The same LNB can be used to receive analogue or digital satellite signals.

Souriau

Would I be safe saying that there is no DVB-T2 iDTV MPEG-4 HD available yet?
So the LG LF7700 is DVB-T1 MPEG-4 HD?

T-Square

slegs wrote: »

The latest Sony W5800 Freesat range should be perfect for Ireland. It is Sony's first foray into freesat and their MPEG4 TVs have been the most compatible (EPG, MHEG5 dig teletext) since the beginning.

Its DVB-T / DVB-S2(Freesat) with MPEG4 and MHEG5 and full 7 day EPG by the way.

Anyone got one? How is the EPG switching handled? Can they be merged?

I have a Sony Bravia KDL46W5810 and the built in hybrid tuner is excellent.
It picks up heaps of channels, several in HD. Also has an ether net port.

Dunno about this terrestrial lark, don't have the antenna, but maybe later.
Don't know what to buy to be honest, any recs?

scath

I would say, that spec is over a year old now, designed for when Boxer were going to launch and T2 wasn't at the stage of receiver manufacture.

. So don't get hung up on it and see it as written in stone. That may be the situation at the transmission end and probably is. But One Vision if it signs on the dotted line may well decide for T2 boxes, given the timelines.

So don't get hung up on that spec. Its subject to change. Just like they decided on MPEG4, they are within their rights to change to T2 also since they've not yet publicly launched. And anyone who went out and bought equipment were advised there is no receivers decided spec at the moment by RTÉ NL.ie What they currently have is only an indication of what its at at the moment

That's what it says...so don't get too hung up on the spec...its subject to change, though certainly T1 is more likely, Onevision could decide on a T2 box spec and give RTÉ NL a contribution to put the T2 headend equipment in place. Arquiva have the expertise in the UK with DVB-T2. It's not beyond the bounds of possibility. As all official boxes for DTT here will be pay TV compliant, which helps the business case and RTÉ NL (from viable pay TV) they could go for T2 boxes. That's my point Chamionc is right, that they may not use it, but it makes upgrade easier and painless for the viewer.

its really betting stages now...if they'll go for T2 or T1 boxes, either could happen. T1 is more likely but the current spec is a pre-launch one. Developments technically have overtaken that spec judgement, which may not have been foreseen, at that time Boxer were to launch in 2009 so that spec is appropriate to boxer. If you look at the pdf brochure on aerials for it, it mentions Boxer.

This is now 2010, T2 equipment will be available by the time One Vision if they do, sign with the BAI, so that spec can be changed as its pre-launch. So place your bets lads, but don't get hung up on the 2008 spec, written when T2 wasn't finalised.

championc

Hi Scath,

That's exactly what I was thinking. It would possibly sound like we might end up with a mixture of T1 and T2 services so especially since, as you say, nothing is officially launched whereas as soon as something IS launched, there's no going back. Obviously, nothing might appear in T2 for a few years but the providers could at least have the option open to them.


C

Souriau

Now that the DVB-T2 spec is set by the UK, sure the Irish spec would also go that way so it is up and ready for T2 and backward compatable with T1 MPEG-4 and MPEG-2, it would leave a suitable HD transmission ready for the settop boxes to reveived them without the viewer have to buy another settop box.
I know technology change so much that you can not futureproof it but at lease it is the latest spec of DVB-T
At the moment with Freeview from Divis in Belfast the transmission mode are

Mux 1 = 16QAM 3/4 2k DVB-T ch.29 Operator BBC A
Mux 2 = 64QAM 2/3 2k DVB-T ch.33 Operator D3&4
Mux A = 64QAM 2/3 2k DVB-T ch.23 Operator SDN
Mux B = 16QAM 3/4 2k DVB-T ch.26 Operator BBC B
Mux C = 16QAM 3/4 2k DVB-T ch.48 Operator Arqiva A
Mux D = 16QAM 3/4 2k DVB-T ch.34 Operator Arqiva B

Change over in 2012 will be
Mux 1 = 64QAM 2/3 8k DVB-T ch.27 Operator BBC A
Mux 2 = 64QAM 2/3 8k DVB-T ch.21 Operator D3&4
Mux A = 64QAM 2/3 8k DVB-T ch.23 Operator SDN
Mux B = discontuine, change to Mux HD
Mux C = 64QAM 2/3 8k DVB-T ch.26 Operator Arqiva A
Mux D = 64QAM 2/3 8k DVB-T ch.29 Operator Arqiva B
Mux HD = 256QAM 2/3 32k DVB-T2 ch.24 Operator BBC B

championc

Thanks Souriau

As a matter of interest, do you know what will be using
Mux D = 64QAM 2/3 8k DVB-T ch.29 Operator Arqiva B
Given that this is RTE1 UHF freq from Three Rock, what is the effect of a stronger UHF Analog frequency meeting a Digital one - could a digital TV tuner ignore the analog signals or would the Analog one block all digital signal ?

Sorry if it's a daft question for those in the know

slegs

T-Square wrote: »

I have a Sony Bravia KDL46W5810 and the built in hybrid tuner is excellent.
It picks up heaps of channels, several in HD. Also has an ether net port.

Dunno about this terrestrial lark, don't have the antenna, but maybe later.
Don't know what to buy to be honest, any recs?

Depends on where you are. If in Dublin then a coat hanger or rabbits ears may be enough

cnocbui

Why would anyone think that there is even the faintest chance of T2 deployment if the cost of deploying T1 is so horrendous it wont be implemented even a year after it was supposed to have been? I would think there is a very good chance we still wont even have T1 even two years from now, given the total shambles that has transpired.

scath

cnocbui wrote: »

Why would anyone think that there is even the faintest chance of T2 deployment if the cost of deploying T1 is so horrendous it wont be implemented even a year after it was supposed to have been? I would think there is a very good chance we still wont even have T1 even two years from now, given the total shambles that has transpired.

I'm not saying T2 will necessarily be deployed at the transmission end. But it could be at the stb end. That answer depends on One Vision. I guess the chances are probably slim because One Vision may not want to spend more than necessary at this point. But it is possible if they want to, the equipment is now there and it would take the same time between sign and launch as procuring the boxes to upgrade masts.

Judging by the latest article, different types of guarantees could overcome the problem. I think the chances are good that we'll see launch by November 2010.

I think it looks like Eircom are eager for DTT and I've no doubt they'll want to move into the project canvas idea of IPTV over the TV set aswell. Its a triple play driver. If they don't then they're going to be weak in the market and I suspect UPC would be more than happy to take the license via Easy TV and tie up the market versus Sky. I'm sure Eircom know that & I expect that they'll sign. They also have a new parent with the money aswell so they couldn't be in a fresher shape to invest

Sponge Bob

I think a lot of it will be made up as we go along . RTE have the world cup in 2010 and they COULD give us a DVB-T1 HD feed and keep that going for the All Ireland as well. They will have enough transponders to do this whether Onevision launch or not.

The alternative is to abandon the airspace to the BBC/Freesat/SKY platforms which would be dreadfully shortsighted and them picking up the HD inbound feeds and with the core network out to the transmitters live since November .They can launch the SD fully and an 'experimental' HD network with it on one of the other 3 transponders. So what if Dunphy HD looks dreadful

I am inclining towards an April/May 2010 launch now, irrespective of whether eircom accept the licence or not and largely because RTE/UPC are next up to be offered the licence if not.

Sam Russell

I agree that an early 2010 launch is likely. It would be a big push if RTE offered an HD varient of RTE1 or even a complete HD service like the BBC HD - some RTE1, and some RTE2, depending on HD availability. It would also allow a little time shift. I do not know how much HD kit RTE has, but HD is where the action is, so much of their production must be in HD if only to sell it overseas.

DVB-T2 is not likely, but it is possible that Onevision could purchase such STBs so that a later switch is possible. 30% extra capacity could be welcome if it were to take off, and if they do not belieive it will take off, they would walk away now.

Here's hoping for a March launch.:D

Sponge Bob

Sam Russell wrote: »

I agree that an early 2010 launch is likely. It would be a big push if RTE offered an HD varient of RTE1 or even a complete HD service like the BBC HD - some RTE1, and some RTE2, depending on HD availability.

They always left themselves the option within the minimum spec

http://www.rtenl.ie/downloads/RTE-FTA-DTT-Receiver-Spec.pdf

This document specifies the minimum receiver (technical) requirements for reception of standard definition television (SDTV) services, high definition television (HDTV) services, and ancillary data services, from the free-to-air (FTA) digital terrestrial television (DTT) transmission network in Ireland.

specifically "Service 3"

Service 3 (HDTV); MPEG4 AVC HP@L4 HDTV video, HE.AAC multi-channel audio, DVB Subtitling and MHEG5 “superteletext”

so as long as there isn't some 'awkward flag' in the Freeview HD spec it should eb cool, the UK Freeview HD spec cannot be downloaded to check

http://www.dtg.org.uk/news/news.php?id=3294

DVB-T2 is not likely, but it is possible that Onevision could purchase such STBs so that a later switch is possible. 30% extra capacity could be welcome if it were to take off, and if they do not belieive it will take off, they would walk away now.

Here's hoping for a March launch.:D

Here is hoping.

reslfj

cnocbui wrote: »

Why would anyone think that there is even the faintest chance of T2 deployment if the cost of deploying T1 is so horrendous it wont be implemented even a year after it was supposed to have been? I would think there is a very good chance we still wont even have T1 even two years from now, given the total shambles that has transpired.

The difference between T1 and T2 at the transmitter is a simple and inexpensive 19"x1.5" rackmounted box with 'computer chips' inside.
All the expensive parts - the mast, the antennas, the UHF power amps. can in almost all cases be 100% reused going from T1 to T2.

But the operational costs will be very much lower.

3 DVB-T muxes will carry 3x24.1 Mbps = 72 Mbps.

2 DVB-T2 muxes will carry 2x40.2 Mbps = 80 Mbps = +11%

So DVB-T2 could provides 11 % more capacity and save 33% of the power and of most other costs. The cost of maintaining the TXmast itself will of cause remain unchanged.

Lars

PS! "It ain't over 'til the fat lady sings"

Souriau

I also think it is better to get a DBV-T2 boxes as even the transmission is not just ready for T2, whenever it will change over to DVB-T2 format, the boxes are already there so the viewer does not need to go out and buy another kit.

reslfj

Sam Russell wrote: »

DVB-T2 is not likely, but it is possible that Onevision could purchase such STBs so that a later switch is possible. 3 0 % extra capacity could be welcome if it were to take off,

Now STOP this nonsense about 3 0 % extra .


In UK and Ireland DTT will - post-DSO - be using

1.  DVB-T   64-QAM   24.13 Mbps   or
2.  DVB-T2 256-QAM   40.21 Mbps

(40.21 - 24.13)*100% / 24.13 = 66.6% extra capacity. This is the only relevant value to quote for a full power UK/ROI(MFN) DTT multiplex.


Lars

Sam Russell

reslfj wrote: »

Now STOP this nonsense about 3 0 % extra .


In UK and Ireland DTT will - post-DSO - be using

1.  DVB-T   64-QAM   24.13 Mbps   or
2.  DVB-T2 256-QAM   40.21 Mbps

(40.21 - 24.13)*100% / 24.13 = 66.6% extra capacity. This is the only relevant value to quote for a full power UK/ROI(MFN) DTT multiplex.


Lars

OK, I am not up to speed on the difference, but extra capacity would be very welcome to a commercial enterprise, as more channels equals more money. And that is what they are all about. If T2 boxes are specified by Onevision (oe whoever) they can start with one Mux and convert as they require, and allow RTE to piggyback. The FTA-only boxes would be T1 and very cheap, as they are existing technology and would not need to be equipped with cams.

Roll on Roll out.:D

T-Square

slegs wrote: »

Depends on where you are. If in Dublin then a coat hanger or rabbits ears may be enough

This should be enough to get the free to air terresterial stuff?

• Integrated freesat tuner – watch free-to-air HD and SD satellite broadcasts without the need for an additional set top box
• Watch digital TV with the integrated standard definition digital terrestrial tuner (MPEG-2, also receives analogue)
• Watch cable TV with the integrated digital cable tuner (subject to country and with supported operators only

I was thinking of going to Maplins, to buy something discreet, has anyone bought something they would recommend from them?

ynotdu

The LG32 mentioned in many posts here could not be got in the last two weeks.Power City website claimed they had three in the Tallaght store only,next day said they were gone:(

Also a trader who posts here(N Ireland )said he could sell as many of them as he could stock,but had none and said he "heard they were discontinued,but might relaunch in the new year"

The Specs are/were TOO good for the price.
It will proably 'relaunch' in the new year but at a much higher price,It was too good to last:(

championc

I know, I know, I was the one who started this thread but I may need to rethink things. If I run my Satellite cable directly into my TV, then I'm obviously going to need another feed from my dish to support an STB connected to my DVD Recorder.

Is there any box / gadget which will run two LNB feeds down one cable. I obviously need to links in case one channel needs to view a H channel and the other a V channel - or am I wrong ?

weehamster

Stacker De-Stacker Switch

scath

I don't think we can see a launch in April, May 2010.

First of all you have the marketing lead in time. It takes time to draw up a marketing campaign & produce it for media, to buy airtime across media and to negotiate with channels and to order the required number of set top boxes which must be pay TV compliant which presumably Freeview HD boxes made will not be (not sure on the last bit there).

Also the consortium has to register as a company, notify to the Competition Authority presumably and get approval etc late March.

I would say we're talking website creation within just before contracts signed, September announcement its coming shortly, TV programmes about DTT, RTÉ, TV3 etc with retailers being stocked up in October co-inciding with marketing blitz end of October that its coming, with launch in November 1st for the lead into Christmas. That's two years ASO time! presuming end of 2012 is now decided, or a year if you count that start of 2012. I guess that's why One Vision were concerned about the Government supporting financially the ASO.

My own view on ASO is that we should co-time switch exactly the time Northern Ireland do, and agree a joint marketing campaign and budget with Digital UK so that everyone knows the situation. That's better for viewers across the island, its simple. It makes life easier if we all go for DVB-T2 for border viewers etc.

I wonder is their any gain for One Vision do a deal with Top-up TV for the Northern Ireland market for upgrading a 2nd mux there for T2? and do its operations up North aswell? Probably too much to take on for the number of viewers sign-up able. Presumably Top up TV will benefit from One Vision DTT boxes, especially if they're T2 boxes. It will help drive down costs. However switchover of more muxes in the UK doesn't coincide for Top-up TV. Having said that, I guess to have HD channels, Top up TV will have to go for T2 boxes with Freeview HD then part of their offering so that could help drive down costs for One Vision just a little on the stb. That would future proof Top-up TV for when the next Mux is switched to T2 and it gets more capacity.

Given the energy savings and capacity improvements, having RTÉ NL upgrade masts with the T2 kit also makes sense as Lars points out. Ongoing cost of operations savings are what its all about and you can bet Arquiva are aware of that. There's enough time for RTÉ NL to do it under the timeline I'm talking about. If it can be done quicker ie in 3 months then of course you're talking about end May in time for the World Cup but that would be lightening fast and not much time for everything to settle in.

championc

scath wrote: »

My own view on ASO is that we should co-time switch exactly the time Northern Ireland do, and agree a joint marketing campaign and budget with Digital UK so that everyone knows the situation. That's better for viewers across the island, its simple. It makes life easier if we all go for DVB-T2 for border viewers etc.

Certainly would make huge sense to piggyback onto UK NI Campaign and have a whole Island of Ireland switchoff at the end of 2012. I think we all except that the Irish service will certainly start with DVB-T1 channels (and will then possibly add T2 ones as they go along), it would be very interesting to know at this point as to how many households would already be able to receive T1 transmissions ?

Sam Russell

scath wrote: »

I don't think we can see a launch in April, May 2010.

First of all you have the marketing lead in time. It takes time to draw up a marketing campaign & produce it for media, ........

.

Look, they have it all working now. They just need to tell everyone, including those in the TV trade. Identify the STB, and away they go. Tell everyone that the analogue goes off in 1st Jan 2011, and switch off the analogue one channel at a time. There is no quicker way of changing over than sitching off the old one. When my telly broke down, I went out and bought a new one, that day. If it has to be, the it has to be. People currently pay $ky and UPC upto €65 euros a month, the STB would be less than that as a single payment.

The ESB could distribute the new STBs if they were cheap enough, they used to do cookers. Or maybe Eircom could leave them on the doorsteps like they do with the Yellow Pages.:D

There is no money for a big campaign, but word of mouth, and telling people through the tranmitters that it will soon be switched off is cheaper and more effective.

scath

Sam Russell wrote: »

Look, they have it all working now.

Yea at the network end. But the whole company formation, channel line-up negotiations with broadcasters will take at least a month or two. Set top boxes will take longer, to have sufficient quantity available from a variety of manufacturers (DVb-T1) MPEG4 boxes and TVs are only becoming more widely available here with DVB-T2 boxes on a few months behind given the UK market is skipping our intermediate spec and feeds the ROI TV market.

Sam Russell wrote: »

They just need to tell everyone, including those in the TV trade.

And how do you do that? I agree there are cheap ways to do this, such as news programmes like Prime Time etc. use of libraries, colleges with posters, Newspaper free CD explanation. But ultimately rather than just informing, as in the case of FTA DTT, you have to have a marketing campaign to attract subscribers to the pay DTT end, simple as. You have to set your stall and sell. Even Freeview do a little of that. That takes afew months from inviting pitches to selecting one, to booking airtime. You also have to put in place customer service teams etc... for the marketing and stb ends.

All that will simply take at least 3 months and maybe more. That's not to say it can't be done. But its alot of rushing. That's not to say they can't achieve launch by June. It just means rushing. So yes its possible, but of course if OneVision don't sign then you're definitely talking Christmas or Paddy's Day 2011.

I just have a feeling that One Vision may go with T2 boxes & seek transmitters upgrade to T2. Of course they mighn't & who knows they may not have been in a rush, striking for the best deal they could get, also aware of the T2 situation stb timeline before now, also seeking direction from their new parent towards DTT. Now its an option for them pre-launch. I think if the security bond is overcome & I think it might be, then you'll have launch. You could even see RTÉ NL invited to place a nominal shareholding in the project.

Sam Russell wrote: »

Tell everyone that the analogue goes off in 1st Jan 2011, and switch off the analogue one channel at a time. There is no quicker way of changing over than sitching off the old one. When my telly broke down, I went out and bought a new one, that day. If it has to be, the it has to be. People currently pay $ky and UPC upto €65 euros a month, the STB would be less than that as a single payment.

I agree as most know, like the Euro changeover, that the quickest way to increase subcribers to One Vision and save costs on broadcasting simultaneous analogue and digital is brief switchover. But this is a 'political decision' (Broadcating Act 2009), Minister has power here, ultimately and the Government will want to be seen to give people time to switchover. Ultimately it makes sense for us to co-time switchover with NI. That is something I think the BBC will be keen for. They're also keen for us to adopt DVB-T2 from their input in my dissertation about that as it simplifies matters.

One could switchover on dates according to transmitter over the 2 years, mirroring the UK set-up. That would be expensive method, as would rely on local papers which some don't read and be prolonged advertising, potential for confusion as to where you get signals from.

The big bang is cheaper, to inform just turn them off first at Donnybrook, then decomission the analogue setup.

The thing is that the Analogue Switchover Group was only recently formed presumably once negotiations were at an advanced sate in the BAI licensee signed off. RTÉ being in the 3rd consortium would obviously speed things up.

At which point then stakeholders will be invited. At the moment, its only to advise the Minister internal department group, its not a stakeholders panel which probably explains http://www.tvaccess.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=88:dttprogress&catid=45:digital-terrestrial-television-articles&Itemid=65

One Vision not to have clarity about approach from the Government beyond 'sometime in 2012'. I suspect that once there's a DTT sign-off that that will start in earnest.

I suspect they'll go with a big bang similar to NI. Ideally if we could get NI to bring forward to switchover to the same time as us, it would be great and that means that January 1st 2012 is do-able. 1 year is enough. You have to give people time.

Sam Russell wrote: »

The ESB could distribute the new STBs if they were cheap enough, they used to do cookers. Or maybe Eircom could leave them on the doorsteps like they do with the Yellow Pages.:D

I think yer being humourous there hahahaha...ESB are out of that a few years now, with no appetite presumably to get back into it. As ror Eircom, I think they'll look to sell the set top box through retailers rather than offer them for free to every household with their Eircom Phonebook. BTW, Yellowpages is owned by Truvo I think, not Eircom I think,anymore see: http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/836427m-profit-for-golden-pages-producer-1727852.html

Sam Russell wrote: »

There is no money for a big campaign, but word of mouth, and telling people through the tranmitters that it will soon be switched off is cheaper and more effective.

You'll find that there is money for a campaign. Any company launching a commercial product has to have one.

The problem about telling people through the transmitters could scare the bejasus out of some people. That solution is more suited to ASO, which is used in UK. I've advocated word of mouth to as in Town Hall type meetings I call them travelling roadshows in universities, chambers of commerce, etc with demos and information on nearest retailer. Definitely and internet are the cost effective methods. But Newspapers and TV and probably radio have to be used aswell. But it doesn't need to be a big campaign. More a sustained one. And its not a complicated proposition.

For example: UK is going digital as is Europe, satellite has gone digital, cable is undergoing digital presently.
terrestrial (transmission to aerial) in RO Ireland is finally going digital

Why? More radiowave capacity=more channel capacity 4*8 or 10 but less radiowave required needed
More services available and integration with internet
Better viewing expericence
Greater choice
Home regulated service, Irish jobs, more channels from Irish broadcasters
3rd Force competition for Pay TV- One Vision

Simple enough!

Sam Russell

scath wrote: »

The big bang is cheaper, to inform just turn them off first at Donnybrook, then decomission the analogue setup.

The problem about telling people through the transmitters could scare the bejasus out of some people. That solution is more suited to ASO, which is used in UK. I've advocated word of mouth to as in Town Hall type meetings I call them travelling roadshows in universities, chambers of commerce, etc with demos and information on nearest retailer. Definitely and internet are the cost effective methods. But Newspapers and TV and probably radio have to be used aswell. But it doesn't need to be a big campaign. More a sustained one. And its not a complicated proposition.

The job of telling people about payTV is one for Onevision. The Government just needs to cope with those who cannot afford the STB. The STB will not work with TVs older than SCART, so that is a problem that needs a solution. However, we are only talking about the 20% or so who do not have 'other channels' through a payed subscription or FTA satellite. Overspill will probably be aware of the switchover and will already have gone DTT or plan to go soon.

The Government usually do little planning for such a switchover, and letting the commercial bodies pick up the job. If the NRA build a motorway, we do not need a miniter to cut the ribbon before it is used. [Unless you own a corner shop near the M9 and have the ear of the minister and need the business before Christmas!]

Just let it launch by having it on the news, just as they did with DAB. A new channel or two would boost take up no end, particularly RTE HD.


People will be quick to get it if it catches on. And it will. The trade will see to that.

scath

Well that's what I was meaning. That's it, no doubt RTÉ & TV3 helping out. But they have to watch this one or they'll have UPC and Sky on their back crying fowl unless they charge for ads, which they would. But also Sound & Vision Fund can be used for this aswell. Prime Time would do alot of explaining, followed up by a check uptake every month just to keep it in the public eye.

RF cable is usually an option on stb's. The main job will be picking up the tab for those on social welfare or pensioners. This is the part the Government could do without, but they'll have to pick up part or all of that cost.

I know what you're saying, the dept can go the cheap way. But is that informing people properly? On a TV ad will do that. I suspect they'll have to pay for airtime etc as they did with Change.ie promoting the website, basic explanation like i said. I suggest Séana Squirrel as the digital Mascot!!

With competitors. In my view One Vision should consider offering the monthly and weekly Top-Up options which would be more expensive than annual subscriptions. I'll say it again, USB sticks, and also offer the channels from One Vision's website via online aswell. My One Vision broadband TV! as Boxer Sweden have started doing over the last year, cos TV is heading towards broadband!

Well ya know how things are done here lol. Easy going, informally, oh...we better do something, quick, a news conference, that'll do hehehe.

I know its not funny but that's the way we often do things. Well I looked at how the UK & others did it and did dissertation on it and that's with them gratis.


The point is that TV is considered bigger business than TV. Prime Time would be more prominent than the News. A programme devoted to it across all TV channels would be the way to go including Sky.

I think you'll see One Vision as the main ones pushing it. I'll be interested to see how much the Dept put into it there at, just at the start for a few days and then towards the ASO end.

It can be very quick, along lines points I suggested, and the website

http://www.digitaltelevision.ie.

I think to show balance they're going to have to add links to Sky and UPC aswell or they'll get criticism for promoting one platform over others.

I think really that website will need to be jigged up about all providers.

Sam Russell

scath wrote: »

I know what you're saying, the dept can go the cheap way. But is that informing people properly? On a TV ad will do that. I suspect they'll have to pay for airtime etc as they did with Change.ie promoting the website, basic explanation like i said. I suggest Séana Squirrel as the digital Mascot!!


Well ya know how things are done here lol. Easy going, informally, oh...we better do something, quick, a news conference, that'll do hehehe.

I know its not funny but that's the way we often do things. Well I looked at how the UK & others did it and did dissertation on it and that's with them gratis.


I think to show balance they're going to have to add links to Sky and UPC aswell or they'll get criticism for promoting one platform over others.

I think really that website will need to be jigged up about all providers.

This is not a new platform for the FTA, it is just goimn Digtal. A STB converter is just converting. Our phones went digital without a fuss. As far as ASO is concerned, and the Government for that matter, is that all people in the state can get FTA TV. The STB for that could be very basic, and so very cheap. Onevision [or whoever] must look after themselves. It is not the Government's business to promote paytv, nor the BAI's.

If Onevision do not sign up now, RTE and RTENL should just announce that the test are over, and it is now a service for those in the coverage areas; and the STB recommended is ......, but any MPEG4/MHEG5 unit will work. Your retailer will advise you. Or words to that effect. Also you have 12 months to get one.

This is the cheap option, and the quick option. Why the delay? Why spend money we have not got, doing something we can do for next to nothing? We are not changing from driving on the left to driving on the right. We are not closing the hospitals. We are not sacking all RTE star performers. We are just getting rid of old technology. There was no fuss when the MW transmitter was turned off. No marches in the street. No protest from pensioners with their Athlone/Hilversum/Luxemburg valve radios that no longer have anything to receive. No one noticed.

The FTA start-up/changeover should go ahead as soon as Onevision decides, whichever way they go. And there is a nice touch to have the main transmitters turned off on 1st Jan 2011, 50 years after they started.

$ky and NTL have nothing to do with FTA terrestial broadcasting. They are just competitors to the payTV side.

It is all there, just start the service by a little announcement in the Personal Collum in the Irish Times. That is all that is needed.:D

scath

No, its not totally all about getting people to have FTA TV. If it was RTÉ would have been given an earlier launch date.

Instead it has been Dept policy over the last few years that it would be combination of both that is best for DTT. That makes sense and what the UK doesn't. But then a Top-up TV type service didn't succeed in getting the license which was lost to Freeview TV. It arrived 2 years later.

.With that in mind, of getting best return on investment Having FTA DTT go ahead of Pay DTT as we see in the UK undermines the potential of pay DTT. If you look at the answer of the Minister to TV Access he takes advice from RTÉ on the matter. RTÉ has to run as much as business as it can to not lose money. See: http://www.tvaccess.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=88:dttprogress&catid=45:digital-terrestrial-television-articles&Itemid=65

For DTT to pay its investment back to RTÉ, it needs Pay DTT rental payments to pay back its sunk investment. That's the reality. RTÉ hasn't got any Rupert Murdoch behind it.

Otherwise RTÉ might be aswell throwing its lot in with broadband providers and just switching of the ATT network full stop insisting on cable and satellite and broadband.

That's the reason that has been stated and restated by RTÉ on a few occasions over the last year. And I understand that. Its business versus enthusiast. Its a business. RTÉ NL are part of Easy TV so they may well see that as their next option and would be in a position having gone through 2 consortia already what is needed. RTÉ have to launch anyways commercially so why not doing it with UPC. And if not with UPC, I suspect Sky would be more than happy to step in in UPC's place and see can it expand its subscriber base, driving a hard bargain with the BAI as the remaining hope for DTT!

So I think this is happening with Pay DTT, simply because RTÉ require it to make back the suck investment in DTT.

What you're talking about is a Freeview model and of course it could be done on the cheap but newspapers isn't enough and one programme on TV. It has to be advertised.

Also Freeview would depend on getting enough Free to Air channels on DTT. That might be possible with UK Channels joining. Would they pay to join and make it back in advertising? I don't know, and with cable it works the other way.

I suspect launch will be in Summer/Autumn if One Vision sign and Paddy's Day if they don't and giving people 6 months is abit tight. People need a year, from early adopters to slow coaches. I know what you're saying, it could be done in 6months, it probably could. And there'd be benefits in that but really ideally its better to co-time with NI on it though we could witch ourselves too.

But, indications are good from One Vision's recent shareholding changes if you also read:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...261300612.html bodes well for DTT, doesn't it! No surprise about the increased stake. Makes sign-off quite likely now.

John Collins writes in Irish Times: 'SINGAPORE-BASED STT has indicated to the Communications Regulator that it will invest in Eircom’s network infrastructure when it acquires the business and that it intends to stay in Ireland for the long term....“From our discussions with them they are looking at Eircom like it’s a telco and not an ATM,” said John Doherty, chairman of ComReg told The Irish Times '

It seems its prepared to invest money. So I think indications are good. Am just surprised Sky aren't taking a stake in the operation. But hey, they may be happy enough not to create more competition for themselves. Anyways, pay DTT is win win for Sky whether or not they're directly involved. More advertising reach and for sub channels wholesale royalty payment per subscriber to them.

Sam Russell

Scath:

We differ in the approach to the marketing of the DTT service. If it is up nad running FTA, then tat will concentrate the minds of the commercial operator. It will be publicised by the same approach as any Free alternative does, people talk about it and recommend it to their friends and family. When the TV retailers get involved, they will advertise their competing products and their services. They may even give Freesat a plug while they are at it.

If the commercial side want to get involved, they pay their own advertising. Boxer cost 7 months delay, Onevision has cost 7 months more, and we are still nowhere. Time to move on, and RTE can do it all on their own. The Good Friday agreement negotiations spoke about All Ireland TV, cross border culture, etc. etc. If there is no commercial involvement, the negotiations for that would be different.

I think now is the time to move, we have €50 million already invested with no return and not even a saving of reduced costs to RTE with the analogue turned off. The sale of spectrum released could be a help, if the money went to pay for DTT.

We now have motorways opening ahead of schedule, and below projected cost. Why does DTT have to be the orphan no-one wants to know?

The Minister does not seem to be advised, and is not interested. RTE are keeping thier powder dry, BAI are also playing a waiting game. Why?

Why is it so secret?

championc

The Gov may only be duty bound to assist those who pay the TV Licence - now that would be interesting too see how many people are still on old B&W TV's !!!

I believe Scart sockets have been on TV's for the last 20 years or so. I doubt there are very many TV's in use around the country of over 20 years old.

I think the Gov's obligation is to make the National Channels (RTE1 & 2 and Radio Channels) available to all citizens so these could always be done via T1 with maybe could be backed up by T2 Based HD services (along with Commercial operators' channels)