Pay Cuts in Commercial Semi State

MI5

Looks like Lenihan, may go after the state commercial companies. ESB, CIE, Bord Gais.
And well he should. Absolutely no reason what so ever why they should be protected from the cold winds blowing in the private and general public service sectors.
Go for it Brian. Let's get the whole economy competitive again.

MI5

Diarmuid

CIE are the poster boy of why Government run monopoly is a very bad thing. How long have we been waiting for timetables at bus stops with the time the fcukin bus will arrive. JHC, if you can't implement that how useless are you?

Nody

Did not ESB have some seriously silly high averages for salaries (I recall a high 70s figure but that is from foggy memory)?

Update; a quick google puts one at 92k a year from 2006 Deloitte report and second at 67k. I think it is safe to say that there is room for trimming there esp. considering the rage of the PS at 48ish a year.

Ordinary man

I believe this was one of the first that should have been looked at. If the ESB were able to reduce their prices by 10% it would be a saving for every home and business in Ireland(reducing overall prces hopefully) Insurances should be looked at too but i don't know if the government could interfer. They should be looking at reducing overall cost of living and cost of business as well as wage adjustments.

joolsveer

Is RTE included in this group? I think some pay cuts would help their perspective!

Rujib1

joolsveer wrote: »

Is RTE included in this group? I think some pay cuts would help their perspective!

Yeah, it is said that, that crackpot who launched into Pat Kenny on Frontline, has been appointed chairman of a new quango called "commercial semi state remuneration review comittee".
Poor Pat Kenny, might have to sell of that plot of land he quatted on out there in Howth, when our hero is finished with him :D

Riskymove

joolsveer wrote: »

Is RTE included in this group? I think some pay cuts would help their perspective!

I thought there had been widespread cuts in salaries at RTE already, no?


While semi-states who are being suibsidised and are making losses should have reviews I dont see why profit-making ones should


would high profit-making private sector firms propose cuts to their staff?

seclachi

Nody wrote: »

Did not ESB have some seriously silly high averages for salaries (I recall a high 70s figure but that is from foggy memory)?

Update; a quick google puts one at 92k a year from 2006 Deloitte report and second at 67k. I think it is safe to say that there is room for trimming there esp. considering the rage of the PS at 48ish a year.

I have heard from a few people that getting a full time job in the esb is pretty much like winning the lotto.

newbie2

Riskymove wrote: »

I thought there had been widespread cuts in salaries at RTE already, no?

There have been cuts across the board - ranging from 5% to 15%. Agrred and implemented during the early summer.

Rujib1

Riskymove wrote: »

I thought there had been widespread cuts in salaries at RTE already, no?


While semi-states who are being suibsidised and are making losses should have reviews I dont see why profit-making ones should


would high profit-making private sector firms propose cuts to their staff?

Biggest profit making state company is ESB. Why shouldn't they have a pay cut, and a very deep one at that. Average pay in that company is €78k. It's like that because time and again they have held a gun to the heads of sucessive governments over the years. More than any one group of workers they can hold the entire country to ransom and have done so on numerous occasions in the past. That is why governments have not had the balls to deal with them.
Cut their pay, and make the company pass the savings on to the consumer.
This is all about everybody shouldering the pain including semi state workers, passing those savings on where the particular company is profitable.

It's only fair and equitable.

R1

Riskymove

Rujib1 wrote: »

Cut their pay, and make the company pass the savings on to the consumer.
This is all about everybody shouldering the pain including semi state workers, passing those savings on where the particular company is profitable.

It's only fair and equitable.

R1

but he said himself last night that it would not affect the price of electricity?

ESB workers (and other semi-states) are not paid directly out of state revenue therefore reducing their pay would play no role in reducing the deficit

are profitable private companies to be forced to cut staff pay and lower their prices by Government legislation too?

delop

'The General Secretary of the Technical Engineering and Electrical Union (TEEU) Eamon Devoy has said pay cuts to semi-state workers will not be tolertated.'

I wonder if they were privatized how militant would Mr. Devoy be then...

Absurdum

Rujib1 wrote: »

Biggest profit making state company is ESB. Why shouldn't they have a pay cut, and a very deep one at that. Average pay in that company is €78k. It's like that because time and again they have held a gun to the heads of sucessive governments over the years. More than any one group of workers they can hold the entire country to ransom and have done so on numerous occasions in the past. That is why governments have not had the balls to deal with them.
Cut their pay, and make the company pass the savings on to the consumer.
This is all about everybody shouldering the pain including semi state workers, passing those savings on where the particular company is profitable.

It's only fair and equitable.

R1

Making a truthful and accurate post would be fair and equitable.

Riskymove

delop wrote: »

'The General Secretary of the Technical Engineering and Electrical Union (TEEU) Eamon Devoy has said pay cuts to semi-state workers will not be tolertated.'

I wonder if they were privatized how militant would Mr. Devoy be then...

the TEEU represents both private and public sector

for those of you with short term memorys you might recall the little matter of an electricians strike during the summer, seems pretty miltant to me

Pete4779

Rujib1 wrote: »

Biggest profit making state company is ESB. Why shouldn't they have a pay cut, .......It's only fair and equitable.

Because ESB are actually a very well-run company that makes money. The price increases they were forced to pass on to customers over the past few years were mandated by government and against the wishes of ESB management.

If they are profitable, then they can reward their staff - that is what is "fair and equitable".

In fact, to get down to brass tacks, if it's about fair and equitable then the people on welfare now would have a 60% cut in benefits as they contribute so little to the system. Furthermore, people on low 20k/year salaries would be paying compulsory health insurance like in Germany and not getting it for free from those who make over 60k/year.

Rujib1

delop wrote: »

'The General Secretary of the Technical Engineering and Electrical Union (TEEU) Eamon Devoy has said pay cuts to semi-state workers will not be tolertated.'

I wonder if they were privatized how militant would Mr. Devoy be then...

Good point. ESB is one of the few assets the government has, which could be sold off for a good price. Lenny need the cash, so why not sell it off?

Absurdum

Pete4779 wrote: »

Because ESB are actually a very well-run company that makes money. The price increases they were forced to pass on to customers over the past few years were mandated by government and against the wishes of ESB management.

These are facts that are constantly ignored here.

gandalf

The thing about these Semi-State bodies is that they may be profitable but their costs effect everyone in the country. If a wage readjustment can reduce the charges everyone pays for lets say electricity then it benefits everyone and business and makes the country as an entity more competitive which is the name of the game now.

Absurdum

gandalf wrote: »

. If a wage readjustment can reduce the charges everyone pays for lets say electricity then it benefits everyone and business and makes the country as an entity more competitive which is the name of the game now.

The regulator is who fixes the price of electricity.

Riskymove

Absurdum wrote: »

The regulator is who fixes the price of electricity.

and to quote Lenihan again, as people seem to have missed it, he said that pay cuts "would not have a big impact on electricity prices"

Lenihan is not talking about pay-cuts in order to lower the price of electricity, thats not what his aim is.

Rujib1

Absurdum wrote: »

These are facts that are constantly ignored here.

Effectively a state monoply. I know there are a few small independents, but in reality ESB is monopoly. It is well run to be fair. That's no reason for them to escape the cuts in the economy in general.
Remember, without a functioning and growing economy, the ESB will quickly run into commercial difficulties like any other company.

billy the squid

If lenihan wanted to reduce the cost of electricity all he would have to do is recommend to the regulator to do so. This would force the ESB to cut it's costs.

Why should people working in a profitable company be subjected to pay cuts though.

any pay rises they received were as a result of partnership agreements. these can now be allowed to expire and a pay freeze introduced.

and the price of electricity has in fact being going down in recent months.

Riskymove

Rujib1 wrote: »

Remember, without a functioning and growing economy, the ESB will quickly run into commercial difficulties like any other company.

how will a reduction in pay to ESB workers contribute to a functioning and growing economy?

zootroid

Pete4779 wrote: »

Because ESB are actually a very well-run company that makes money. The price increases they were forced to pass on to customers over the past few years were mandated by government and against the wishes of ESB management.

If they are profitable, then they can reward their staff - that is what is "fair and equitable".

In fact, to get down to brass tacks, if it's about fair and equitable then the people on welfare now would have a 60% cut in benefits as they contribute so little to the system. Furthermore, people on low 20k/year salaries would be paying compulsory health insurance like in Germany and not getting it for free from those who make over 60k/year.

It's very easy to be profitable when you are practically a monopoly, and the product/service you sell is essential to the entire population.

ei.sdraob

Ordinary man wrote: »

I believe this was one of the first that should have been looked at. If the ESB were able to reduce their prices by 10% it would be a saving for every home and business in Ireland(reducing overall prces hopefully) Insurances should be looked at too but i don't know if the government could interfer. They should be looking at reducing overall cost of living and cost of business as well as wage adjustments.

ESB are able to reduce by 10% (and more) and asked the regulator to do so

but were not allowed to reduce prices by state Regulator in order not to hurt "co petition" (airtricity and other green fluffy companies whose electricity costs a bit)

as for salaries not everyone is on high salaries (ive been there, just about paid for living in Dublin) like all of temp/contract staff,
tho the core are fairly well paid, wouldnt hurt to get a paycut

tho then again they are not a state company so we are threading on dangerous "communist" like ground, and last thing the government need are strikes in ESB like happened in 80s, now that will bring the country to a standstill

/

MI5

Riskymove wrote: »

how will a reduction in pay to ESB workers contribute to a functioning and growing economy?

Pass on savings. Help the general economy become more competitive.

Look, back over the past 15 years. Demand for power grew enormously on the back of the surging economy. ESB benefited. Their employees benefited, as indeed did workers of all kinds in all sorts of private sector businesses and public sector benefited through benchmarking.

Now the hard times have arrived. Economy is contracting. Government effectively devaluing, through the only means at it's disposal. That's through pay cuts, as we cannot devalue the euro.

Everybody it seems apart from semi state employees have had their pay cut.

There is absolutely no reason why any one sector should be immune.

Make savings in these areas. Pass savings on to general economy. It just makes a lot of basic sense to me at least.

ei.sdraob

MI5 wrote: »

Pass on savings. Help the general economy become more competitive.

i already posted ESB accounts details before (google them they are available for free)

the salaries are a tiny portion of the costs

majority of the cost is fuel and maintenance

Riskymove

MI5 wrote: »

Pass on savings. Help the general economy become more competitive.

for the third time, it has been suggested by Lenihan himself that a pay cut wont have a big impact on prices so therefore no savings to be passed on

balrog

the salaries are a tiny portion of the costs

Ever bit helps and they should take a pay cut. They cant hold us to ransom. Cut them now

Riskymove

balrog wrote: »

Ever bit helps and they should take a pay cut. They cant hold us to ransom. Cut them now

how are they holding you to ransom?

ei.sdraob

Riskymove wrote: »

for the third time, it has been suggested by Lenihan himself that a pay cut wont have a big impact on prices so therefore no savings to be passed on

it wont because employees salaries are a tiny percentage of overall expenses and falling rapidly as employee numbers fall

this would be apparent to anyone who bothers looking at accounts
http://www.esb.ie/downloads/about_esb/2007/esb-annual-report-complete-2007.pdf

but lets not have facts get in the way of passionate and uninformed arguments eh?

another interesting load info here
http://www.esb.ie/downloads/facts-at-a-glance-2008.pdf

ei.sdraob

balrog wrote: »

Ever bit helps and they should take a pay cut. They cant hold us to ransom. Cut them now

what bit?

i provided a link to the accounts above

i want figures and facts


how much can be saved??

go right a head :rolleyes:

Stheno

Rujib1 wrote: »

Good point. ESB is one of the few assets the government has, which could be sold off for a good price. Lenny need the cash, so why not sell it off?

It would be difficult to sell the ESB off due to the size of their pension deficit, which runs to hundreds of millions of Euro iirc

Rujib1

Looks to me that it's pretty easy be profitable when you can be at the top of the European price league for your product.
When you think about it, ESB charge per Kwh, is on a par with Germany.

The economy where ESB gets it's revenue these days, is more on a par with Greece, as the bond markets keep reminding us.

Just look at the table here http://www.energy.eu/#domestic

Cut the pay and be done with it. Make ESB cut prices sharply and be done with it. If regulator has a problem with either, cut the regulator and be done with it.

Let's make this economy competitive again. Can't make an omlette without breaking some eggs.

r1

Riskymove

Rujib1 wrote: »

Cut the pay and be done with it. Make ESB cut prices sharply and be done with it. If regulator has a problem with either, cut the regulator and be done with it.

you seem to want to just keep going on these lines without thinking about whats been posted here

1. ESB wanted to lower prices, regulator/Governemtn would not let them

2. a paycut will not reduce electricity prices

3. there is competition with bord gais and airtricity, if you think esb is too high change - btw do you think airtricity wages should be cut by Government?

4. ESB wages are not part of the public sector pay bill, so cut will not help balance the books

Riskymove

nouggatti wrote: »

It would be difficult to sell the ESB off due to the size of their pension deficit, which runs to hundreds of millions of Euro iirc

try around €2bn

AlekSmart

CIE are the poster boy of why Government run monopoly is a very bad thing. How long have we been waiting for timetables at bus stops with the time the fcukin bus will arrive. JHC, if you can't implement that how useless are you?

Good News for Diarmuid....The responsibility for implimenting the Roadside infrastructure for the Bus Atha Cliath Real Time Passenger Information system has been taken from that company and allocated to ( a rather surprised) Dublin City Council.

The City Council is currently embarking on a thorough study of the implimentation structures and work on the planning of the roll-out phase is imminent.

Mind you,Bus Atha Cliath was ready to roll-out on this project far earlier but were refused the necessary funding due to concerns about their market-dominance.

So it`s not ALL bad news.......?

Padraig Mor

Pete4779 wrote: »

Because ESB are actually a very well-run company that makes money. .

Well, that's if you ignore the gaping hole in their pension fund - what is it, €2.5 billion??!! Of course, they're just waiting for the govt to fill that, despite not paying the pension levy.

Cut their pay, and use the savings to shore up the pension fund.

Rujib1

Riskymove wrote: »

you seem to want to just keep going on these lines without thinking about whats been posted here

1. ESB wanted to lower prices, regulator/Governemtn would not let them

2. a paycut will not reduce electricity prices

3. there is competition with bord gais and airtricity, if you think esb is too high change - btw do you think airtricity wages should be cut by Government?

4. ESB wages are not part of the public sector pay bill, so cut will not help balance the books

Read my full post.

I said, if regulator gets in way of price cuts, cut the regulator.
Essentially, the rules and regs of the pat decade no longer work.
We know that from the financial regulator, and that offices failure.

When it comes to the energy regulator, they also need to change approach.



I know reduced wage costs in ESB, will not help government debt directly.

However, reduced electricity prices could help the total economy gegain lost competivness. That could help the government coffers indiretly if industry could pick up as a result of gaining competitivness.

I'm not about just cutting for the sake of it. Just cut to make the economy more competitive. That's all. No more, no less.

Stop people travelling to NI for basic shopping, by driving down every and all components of cost to retailers in south for example.

Help exporters in this economy, gain more advantage in each and every part of their cost.

Lifting the export sector revenues and sales volumes, is key to turning this country around.

Energy prices need to be much, much lower in the European league table.

Much lower. If there is some difficulty in allowing the regulator sanction such a reduction by ESB, then government needs to get rid of the difficulties.

And yes, cut Airtricity as well. Every power generator needs to teke lower price for their product.

R1

parsi

It's a free market.

So let Airtrcirity and Bord Gaid drop their prices significantly and wait for the rush of customers.

People complain about the ESB prices being high but yet there are two companies who are at least 10% cheaper.

Why aren't these two options inundated with customers - the chanegover process is easy. The ESB make no attempt to restrict your move.

ei.sdraob

parsi wrote: »

It's a free market.

So let Airtrcirity and Bord Gaid drop their prices significantly and wait for the rush of customers.

People complain about the ESB prices being high but yet there are two companies who are at least 10% cheaper.

Why aren't these two options inundated with customers - the chanegover process is easy. The ESB make no attempt to restrict your move.

your forgetting that they are 10% cheaper because ESB is not allowed to cut their prices to match them and below (they wanted 15% cut)

so no its not a free market

as it would "hurt" the above 2 companies and other

the regulator cares about these companies not the consumer

parsi

My point is that everyone is railing at the ESB. The Busienss Unions - ISME , IBEC and SFA - are constantly demanding that the ESB reduce their prices and expressing outrage.

However all these people have an immediate alternative which offers at least 10% reduction.

So why aren't the competitors inundated with business ? Is it just the usual case of folk bitching for the sake of it or is it part of a concerted effort to get rid of the ESB ?

balrog

Look cut the ESB they are no differernt than the PS. Any saving that can be made should be done. No matter how small the % of the overall pay is. A small % of a large amount is a large amount. I hope the goverment have the balls to do this. Dont forget anglo aswell please. Average pay 78 thousand bring them on:pac::pac::pac:

MI5

parsi wrote: »

My point is that everyone is railing at the ESB. The Busienss Unions - ISME , IBEC and SFA - are constantly demanding that the ESB reduce their prices and expressing outrage.

However all these people have an immediate alternative which offers at least 10% reduction.

So why aren't the competitors inundated with business ? Is it just the usual case of folk bitching for the sake of it or is it part of a concerted effort to get rid of the ESB ?

My business account with Energia. My home account with Airtricity.
Basically both promise to be 10% lower than ESB at all times.
So if ESB reduce prices I automaticall get the benefit.

Every sensible citizen in this country should move their account away from ESB. Save some bucks.

Wonder how many of our esteemed shoppers going north, have overlooked switching from ESB.

Them boys in TEEU, wouldnt long be sitting up if Joe Public got off his ass and switched en mass to the competition. Wouldn't be profitable then would they? :rolleyes:

murphaph

Everyone should switch to Bord Gais or another cheaper electricity provider. That would soon see the ESB's profitable status wiped out overnight and then perhaps their overpaid staff would get the paycuts everyone else is enduring.

However, if you are too lazy to switch provider, don't complain that the current one fleeces you (regardless of whether they are ordered to fleece you by a stupid regulator).

Riskymove

MI5 wrote: »

My business account with Energia. My home account with Airtricity.
Basically both promise to be 10% lower than ESB at all times.
So if ESB reduce prices I automaticall get the benefit.

are you sure?

I switched to Bord gais for the discount but its only for this year and the next two years that its guaranteed I think

Absurdum

MI5 wrote: »

Them boys in TEEU, wouldnt long be sitting up if Joe Public got off his ass and switched en mass to the competition. Wouldn't be profitable then would they? :rolleyes:

Yes.

Rujib1

Absurdum wrote: »

Yes.

Absolutely!

Cufflink

Has everyone forgotten the reason why ESB charges are so high? They were forced up on ideological grounds by the late and very unlamented PDs in order to attract in foreign competition to the Irish electricity market so as to force down electricity prices. Really Irish, isn't it?

MI5

Not to worry folks. Heard Brendan Train Stopper Ogle on Matt Cooper this evening.
He made a few really impressive blood curling yeeehaws, about going toe to toe with Brian Neo Liberal Lenihan. He promised a ferocious response from the intrepid beards in ESB.

No matter the merits or demerits of ESB, and for sure as state companies go, it has been successful, but one has to really stop and think about the consequences of leaving the country exposed to any one group of workers in such a critical industry led by an out and out proven "maverick", as Ogle.

irish_bob

parsi wrote: »

It's a free market.

So let Airtrcirity and Bord Gaid drop their prices significantly and wait for the rush of customers.

People complain about the ESB prices being high but yet there are two companies who are at least 10% cheaper.

Why aren't these two options inundated with customers - the chanegover process is easy. The ESB make no attempt to restrict your move.

if the ESB as part of strike action ( in the face of proposed pay cuts ) decide to turn off the power , do you think bord gais or airtricity customers wont be effected , yes , they will , the ESB has a monopoly on the hardware