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Child Item

Pay Cuts in Commercial Semi State

MI5

Looks like Lenihan, may go after the state commercial companies. ESB, CIE, Bord Gais.
And well he should. Absolutely no reason what so ever why they should be protected from the cold winds blowing in the private and general public service sectors.
Go for it Brian. Let's get the whole economy competitive again.

MI5

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ei.sdraob

balrog wrote: »

Ever bit helps and they should take a pay cut. They cant hold us to ransom. Cut them now

what bit?

i provided a link to the accounts above

i want figures and facts

how much can be saved??

go right a head :rolleyes:

Stheno

Rujib1 wrote: »

Good point. ESB is one of the few assets the government has, which could be sold off for a good price. Lenny need the cash, so why not sell it off?

It would be difficult to sell the ESB off due to the size of their pension deficit, which runs to hundreds of millions of Euro iirc

Rujib1

Looks to me that it's pretty easy be profitable when you can be at the top of the European price league for your product.
When you think about it, ESB charge per Kwh, is on a par with Germany.

The economy where ESB gets it's revenue these days, is more on a par with Greece, as the bond markets keep reminding us.

Just look at the table here http://www.energy.eu/#domestic

Cut the pay and be done with it. Make ESB cut prices sharply and be done with it. If regulator has a problem with either, cut the regulator and be done with it.

Let's make this economy competitive again. Can't make an omlette without breaking some eggs.

r1

Riskymove

Rujib1 wrote: »

Cut the pay and be done with it. Make ESB cut prices sharply and be done with it. If regulator has a problem with either, cut the regulator and be done with it.

you seem to want to just keep going on these lines without thinking about whats been posted here

1. ESB wanted to lower prices, regulator/Governemtn would not let them

2. a paycut will not reduce electricity prices

3. there is competition with bord gais and airtricity, if you think esb is too high change - btw do you think airtricity wages should be cut by Government?

4. ESB wages are not part of the public sector pay bill, so cut will not help balance the books

Riskymove

nouggatti wrote: »

It would be difficult to sell the ESB off due to the size of their pension deficit, which runs to hundreds of millions of Euro iirc

try around €2bn

AlekSmart

CIE are the poster boy of why Government run monopoly is a very bad thing. How long have we been waiting for timetables at bus stops with the time the fcukin bus will arrive. JHC, if you can't implement that how useless are you?

Good News for Diarmuid....The responsibility for implimenting the Roadside infrastructure for the Bus Atha Cliath Real Time Passenger Information system has been taken from that company and allocated to ( a rather surprised) Dublin City Council.

The City Council is currently embarking on a thorough study of the implimentation structures and work on the planning of the roll-out phase is imminent.

Mind you,Bus Atha Cliath was ready to roll-out on this project far earlier but were refused the necessary funding due to concerns about their market-dominance.

So it`s not ALL bad news.......?

Padraig Mor

Pete4779 wrote: »

Because ESB are actually a very well-run company that makes money. .

Well, that's if you ignore the gaping hole in their pension fund - what is it, €2.5 billion??!! Of course, they're just waiting for the govt to fill that, despite not paying the pension levy.

Cut their pay, and use the savings to shore up the pension fund.

Rujib1

Riskymove wrote: »

you seem to want to just keep going on these lines without thinking about whats been posted here

1. ESB wanted to lower prices, regulator/Governemtn would not let them

2. a paycut will not reduce electricity prices

3. there is competition with bord gais and airtricity, if you think esb is too high change - btw do you think airtricity wages should be cut by Government?

4. ESB wages are not part of the public sector pay bill, so cut will not help balance the books

Read my full post.

I said, if regulator gets in way of price cuts, cut the regulator.
Essentially, the rules and regs of the pat decade no longer work.
We know that from the financial regulator, and that offices failure.

When it comes to the energy regulator, they also need to change approach.

I know reduced wage costs in ESB, will not help government debt directly.

However, reduced electricity prices could help the total economy gegain lost competivness. That could help the government coffers indiretly if industry could pick up as a result of gaining competitivness.

I'm not about just cutting for the sake of it. Just cut to make the economy more competitive. That's all. No more, no less.

Stop people travelling to NI for basic shopping, by driving down every and all components of cost to retailers in south for example.

Help exporters in this economy, gain more advantage in each and every part of their cost.

Lifting the export sector revenues and sales volumes, is key to turning this country around.

Energy prices need to be much, much lower in the European league table.

Much lower. If there is some difficulty in allowing the regulator sanction such a reduction by ESB, then government needs to get rid of the difficulties.

And yes, cut Airtricity as well. Every power generator needs to teke lower price for their product.

R1

parsi

It's a free market.

So let Airtrcirity and Bord Gaid drop their prices significantly and wait for the rush of customers.

People complain about the ESB prices being high but yet there are two companies who are at least 10% cheaper.

Why aren't these two options inundated with customers - the chanegover process is easy. The ESB make no attempt to restrict your move.

ei.sdraob

parsi wrote: »

It's a free market.

So let Airtrcirity and Bord Gaid drop their prices significantly and wait for the rush of customers.

People complain about the ESB prices being high but yet there are two companies who are at least 10% cheaper.

Why aren't these two options inundated with customers - the chanegover process is easy. The ESB make no attempt to restrict your move.

your forgetting that they are 10% cheaper because ESB is not allowed to cut their prices to match them and below (they wanted 15% cut)

so no its not a free market

as it would "hurt" the above 2 companies and other

the regulator cares about these companies not the consumer

parsi

My point is that everyone is railing at the ESB. The Busienss Unions - ISME , IBEC and SFA - are constantly demanding that the ESB reduce their prices and expressing outrage.

However all these people have an immediate alternative which offers at least 10% reduction.

So why aren't the competitors inundated with business ? Is it just the usual case of folk bitching for the sake of it or is it part of a concerted effort to get rid of the ESB ?

balrog

Look cut the ESB they are no differernt than the PS. Any saving that can be made should be done. No matter how small the % of the overall pay is. A small % of a large amount is a large amount. I hope the goverment have the balls to do this. Dont forget anglo aswell please. Average pay 78 thousand bring them on:pac::pac::pac:

MI5

parsi wrote: »

My point is that everyone is railing at the ESB. The Busienss Unions - ISME , IBEC and SFA - are constantly demanding that the ESB reduce their prices and expressing outrage.

However all these people have an immediate alternative which offers at least 10% reduction.

So why aren't the competitors inundated with business ? Is it just the usual case of folk bitching for the sake of it or is it part of a concerted effort to get rid of the ESB ?

My business account with Energia. My home account with Airtricity.
Basically both promise to be 10% lower than ESB at all times.
So if ESB reduce prices I automaticall get the benefit.

Every sensible citizen in this country should move their account away from ESB. Save some bucks.

Wonder how many of our esteemed shoppers going north, have overlooked switching from ESB.

Them boys in TEEU, wouldnt long be sitting up if Joe Public got off his ass and switched en mass to the competition. Wouldn't be profitable then would they? :rolleyes:

murphaph

Everyone should switch to Bord Gais or another cheaper electricity provider. That would soon see the ESB's profitable status wiped out overnight and then perhaps their overpaid staff would get the paycuts everyone else is enduring.

However, if you are too lazy to switch provider, don't complain that the current one fleeces you (regardless of whether they are ordered to fleece you by a stupid regulator).

Riskymove

MI5 wrote: »

My business account with Energia. My home account with Airtricity.
Basically both promise to be 10% lower than ESB at all times.
So if ESB reduce prices I automaticall get the benefit.

are you sure?

I switched to Bord gais for the discount but its only for this year and the next two years that its guaranteed I think

Absurdum

MI5 wrote: »

Them boys in TEEU, wouldnt long be sitting up if Joe Public got off his ass and switched en mass to the competition. Wouldn't be profitable then would they? :rolleyes:

Yes.

Rujib1

Absurdum wrote: »

Yes.

Absolutely!

Cufflink

Has everyone forgotten the reason why ESB charges are so high? They were forced up on ideological grounds by the late and very unlamented PDs in order to attract in foreign competition to the Irish electricity market so as to force down electricity prices. Really Irish, isn't it?

MI5

Not to worry folks. Heard Brendan Train Stopper Ogle on Matt Cooper this evening.
He made a few really impressive blood curling yeeehaws, about going toe to toe with Brian Neo Liberal Lenihan. He promised a ferocious response from the intrepid beards in ESB.

No matter the merits or demerits of ESB, and for sure as state companies go, it has been successful, but one has to really stop and think about the consequences of leaving the country exposed to any one group of workers in such a critical industry led by an out and out proven "maverick", as Ogle.

irish_bob

parsi wrote: »

It's a free market.

So let Airtrcirity and Bord Gaid drop their prices significantly and wait for the rush of customers.

People complain about the ESB prices being high but yet there are two companies who are at least 10% cheaper.

Why aren't these two options inundated with customers - the chanegover process is easy. The ESB make no attempt to restrict your move.

if the ESB as part of strike action ( in the face of proposed pay cuts ) decide to turn off the power , do you think bord gais or airtricity customers wont be effected , yes , they will , the ESB has a monopoly on the hardware

irish_bob

murphaph wrote: »

Everyone should switch to Bord Gais or another cheaper electricity provider. That would soon see the ESB's profitable status wiped out overnight and then perhaps their overpaid staff would get the paycuts everyone else is enduring.

However, if you are too lazy to switch provider, don't complain that the current one fleeces you (regardless of whether they are ordered to fleece you by a stupid regulator).

bord gais dont have men who go up poles or even meter readers , you can change from eircom to perlico for cheaper calls but if your phone isnt working , its an eircome technician who will call out to your house , as i said , ESB own the hardware and regardless of who your with , if the ESB turn off the power , you will be like moses when the lights went out

irish_bob

MI5 wrote: »

Not to worry folks. Heard Brendan Train Stopper Ogle on Matt Cooper this evening.
He made a few really impressive blood curling yeeehaws, about going toe to toe with Brian Neo Liberal Lenihan. He promised a ferocious response from the intrepid beards in ESB.

No matter the merits or demerits of ESB, and for sure as state companies go, it has been successful, but one has to really stop and think about the consequences of leaving the country exposed to any one group of workers in such a critical industry led by an out and out proven "maverick", as Ogle.

someone needs to give that scumbag ( brendan ogle ) a gift of a book explaining political idealogy definitions for christmas , the idiot keeps banging on about how we had a neo conservative goverment this past decade :eek: , love theese hypocrites like ogle , self proclaimed socilists who insist on HIGH WAGES for themselves and thier workers regardless of the cost to everyone else

murphaph

irish_bob wrote: »

bord gais dont have men who go up poles or even meter readers , you can change from eircom to perlico for cheaper calls but if your phone isnt working , its an eircome technician who will call out to your house , as i said , ESB own the hardware and regardless of who your with , if the ESB turn off the power , you will be like moses when the lights went out

This is all true Bob, but my point was that people should switch to Bord Gais etc. so the regulator allows the ESB to compete. It is pointless complaining about what the ESB might do when customers can change to a cheaper provider in 10 minutes, but most appear to lazy to do so.

MI5

irish_bob wrote: »

bord gais dont have men who go up poles or even meter readers , you can change from eircom to perlico for cheaper calls but if your phone isnt working , its an eircome technician who will call out to your house , as i said , ESB own the hardware and regardless of who your with , if the ESB turn off the power , you will be like moses when the lights went out

I thought ESB (power generation) and ESB Networks (power distributin) were two different companies. Independent power generators, get access to the market through the ESB Networks, in the same way as ESB Power Gen get access.
Bet there is some catch in there whic could prevent the Network company preventing the independents going to market, if say ESB generation took 12 days unplanned holidays. I could be wrong though.

thebman

Riskymove wrote: »

While semi-states who are being suibsidised and are making losses should have reviews I dont see why profit-making ones should

would high profit-making private sector firms propose cuts to their staff?

ESB prices are set artifically high by the regulator to try to encourage consumers to switch to other operators.

Obviously this is working about as well as it is with eircoms high line rental given the lack of real competition in the market due to who owns the network and people wanting to be with the network owner in case issues arise.

ESB price rates should be cut and employees should take a cut in wages as a result of the reduced profits and all the savings passed on to consumers (which includes ESB employees) and businesses who will see reduced cost of doing business and will be able to reduce prices to consumers as a result (which ESB workers will also benefit from).

In reality though, this is to maximise the states take from the ESB I imagine as a shareholder so serves little purpose to help the economy.

Riskymove wrote: »

how will a reduction in pay to ESB workers contribute to a functioning and growing economy?

See above if it was done right but it wouldn't be so there is no point other than the state wanting more money to reduce its deficit more. Not entirely a bad idea but it would benefit the economy more I think if the savings were passed on to consumers.

parsi wrote: »

It's a free market.

So let Airtrcirity and Bord Gaid drop their prices significantly and wait for the rush of customers.

People complain about the ESB prices being high but yet there are two companies who are at least 10% cheaper.

Why aren't these two options inundated with customers - the chanegover process is easy. The ESB make no attempt to restrict your move.

Its no a free market, its a regulated market. People don't trust the other operators to provide service or deal with network problems and others are renting and need the landlord permission.

Rev. BlueJeans

Plenty of ESB people have little time for Ogle either.

Look, it's like this, if companies are profitable (and ESB is-and has been subject to many reviews down through the years, making it by far the leanest of the semi-states-you guys should have seen it 15 or 20 years ago!) then they should be left well enough alone.

If they are not, and most of them are not, then rationalisation and review should be the order of the day, and if pay is deemed a part of that-then so be it.

The same would apply to ESB if they ended up costing the exchequer.

What worries me, and FG are all for it, is the selling off of critical infrastructure. Aunty Mary did it with Eircom, and our comms infrastructure ended up in the hands of aussie asset strippers, with the result that half the eircom lines in the country are lying on top of ditches. And now they want to do the same with one of the most advanced and well run electricity networks in the world, which has been subject to billions in investment in recent years, with much more to come in green energy, micro-generation and smart metering?

Make no mistake, and it's heartening to see that most of you already know this-the enrgy sector here is grossly over-regulated, in stark contrast to the banks. If and when ESB can get a free reign on the market price they set (hopefully this is only months away), we will all be paying much much less for our electricity.

Perhaps those of you that see ESB in a negative light will be swayed when this happens.

Rev. BlueJeans

By the way, working in ESB is not a blank cheque, or akin to winning the lotto. This is a most facetious remark, and people should not believe what they read in the Indo.

I will concede that the CEO is on crazy money, almost three times that of Cowen.

Bogger77

balrog wrote: »

Look cut the ESB they are no differernt than the PS. Any saving that can be made should be done. No matter how small the % of the overall pay is. A small % of a large amount is a large amount. I hope the goverment have the balls to do this. Dont forget anglo aswell please. Average pay 78 thousand bring them on:pac::pac::pac:

Seriously, did you read anything in the thread, or are you just repeating some drunken speil you heard in the pub.

In relation to semi states, ESB and Bord Gais, do not get any subsidy from the State. CIE and anPost get a large percentage of day to day running costs directly from State subsidy payment. They could not function without it.
ESB, have for as many years as I can remember paid the government a nice dividend at the each of each year. That's right, the ESB gives the Government money each year.
ESB staff do not receive a pension from the state for the time they've worked in the ESB, granted staff who worked elsewhere before hand are due a payment at whatever PRSI rate they paid in. So there's money the government can spend on other people. Most staff would also be members of the in-house health insurance scheme, and don't rely on Public health system, again more money saved.
ESB staff current, and pensioners, contribute significantly to the local economies as most staff in generation are based in rural area's. Be that LadyFalls on the Erne or Great Island in Wexford.
The price of consumer electricity is set by the Energy regulator, who has refused ESB permission to drop it's prices, so that airtricy etc, can survive. It's the reverse of communism, where the state owned operator, is being hampered and forced to charge more so that the private operator can generate a profit. ESB's prices are at least 7 to 10% higher than the ESB would like to charge. Add in that ESB networks paid for the overall of the network in the last 5 years, at zero cost to airtricty

If you want a more efficient ESB, force the Regulator to allow ESB to drop to commercial charging and doing so will increase profits, giving the government a larger yearly dividend.

Trying to force a pay cut will result in one thing, lights out, and goodbye to pay and service agreements. A country can survive with a semi functioning public service, it cannot survive without electricty. At the moment, ESB works, it generates a large yearly payment for the government, and you forget the take from tax from each employee and pensioner.
That's right, ESB pensioners get monthly salary, from which tax is paid.

I suggest you read up on the Semi States, some are basket cases (CIE group), some should be shut down as defunct (BnM), some should be merged with others (Shannon Dev/Udras, IDA, Enterprise Irl), while some are clearly functioning as designed (ESB, BG).

One other little thing, you're not understanding, is that the government signed up to standard wage agreements, which stated pay and conditions for most sectors of the economy, if it breached those, it'd set a very bad precedent, and be illegal anyhows.

OLP

balrog wrote: »

Look cut the ESB they are no differernt than the PS.

Yes they are, the ESB aren't paid by the tax payer, they're paid by the ESB, which is a profitable company. That's why I don't think the government gets a say on how much they get paid.

And people need to stop looking at the ESB as one big company, the main two concerned here are ESB Power Generation, who produce and sell electricity, and ESB Networks, who own and maintain the network. However ESB Networks don't OPERATE the grid, that is EirGrids job.

balrog

you will find the goverment have already broken the pay agreement or ask some PS about that. They did not signalled that they would cut wages by the areed method and see what difference that made. Anyway the ESB and Bord Gais never get a penny out of the goverment you are right. why cause they cant make a loss its in their rules. So they hedge the gas prices the worng way. The hit the customer to make up the difference. Go ESB. Bring them in and cut the wage by at least 3.5%, the cost of deflation.