Irishness a weakness???

gob

I'm through to the final round interview with one of the large investment banks on Monday so I rang a relation of mine for some advice.

I mentioned during the conversation that I was a bit put off at the assessment centre last week because everyone else was from one of the top U.K. universities (Oxford, Cambridge etc.) and I'm currently studying for my masters in DCU having done my undergrad. in UCD. He told me that alot of these big companies have a rating system for universities (all the Irish ones being 'bronze' with the exception of Trinity which is 'silver').

He also suggested that if asked what my greatest weakness was that I should say that I don't go to a top school and he went even further to suggest I say that it's the fact I'm Irish! He told me that these big companies have diversity quotients to meet and often look for people from what might be considered nontraditional backgrounds compared to their usual intake.

To clarify this relation is Irish himself, educated in Ireland and has interviewed people for these positions so he knows what he's talking about.

I thought I did really well getting through to the final round now I'm beginning to wonder if I might be the beneficiary of positive discrimination!

Anyone else think experienced anything like this? Think Irishness is a weakness in the international business world?

partyatmygaff

gob wrote: »

I thought I did really well getting through to the final round now I'm beginning to wonder if I might be the beneficiary of positive discrimination!

Anyone else think experienced anything like this? Think Irishness is a weakness in the international business world?

Discrimination is never positive. Anyways, I wouldn't dwell too much on that thought. Just go for it and do your best in the interview, think too much about it and you will lose confidence and it shows.

TheZohanS

gob wrote: »

Anyone else think experienced anything like this?

Yes, I have relations that are d!cks too.

loveissucide

Surely coming from a predominantly white,English speaking,rich country would rule the whole diversity bit out.

Agricola

loveissucide wrote: »

Surely coming from a predominantly white,English speaking,broke country would rule the whole diversity bit out.

FYP

Sand

They might be disgusted if you play the "poor me" card. Theyll be looking for heartless monsters to help them exploit the 3rd world and the working class, not people obsessed with their own failings.

When an interviewer asks you what your weaknesses are, they are looking for you to give them a reason to not give you the job. Dont give them one. Best advice I got was to explain how, in the past, I had such and such an issue - I addressed it through training or whatever, and now I would no longer consider it a weakness. I.E. turn a weakness into a strength.

Cadiz

TheZohan wrote: »

Yes, I have relations that are d!cks too.

Ahem, attack the post, not the poster's relatives

gob

loveissucide wrote: »

Surely coming from a predominantly white,English speaking,rich country would rule the whole diversity bit out.

That's what I would have thought. Though having spent time living and working in US and Australia I was surprised at the amount of people that don't think very positively about the Irish at all.

gob

Sand wrote: »

They might be disgusted if you play the "poor me" card. Theyll be looking for heartless monsters to help them exploit the 3rd world and the working class, not people obsessed with their own failings.

When an interviewer asks you what your weaknesses are, they are looking for you to give them a reason to not give you the job. Dont give them one. Best advice I got was to explain how, in the past, I had such and such an issue - I addressed it through training or whatever, and now I would no longer consider it a weakness. I.E. turn a weakness into a strength.

Exactly what I did in the previous interview. I have no intention of saying being Irish is my weakness but it did get me thinking about how we are considered as a race/nation.

gob

Cadiz wrote: »

Ahem, attack the post, not the poster's relatives

He's a decent guy and he was just telling me what some people in these companies think; not necessarily his view.

Naos

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Discrimination is never positive. Anyways, I wouldn't dwell too much on that thought. Just go for it and do your best in the interview, think too much about it and you will lose confidence and it shows.

Look up the meaning of Positive Discrimination.

Edit: Op - even if the positive discrimination edged it for you, it's more likely your qualifications got you there. Besides, as you're from the rich whiteclass background, it's not exactly the same

Cadiz

gob wrote: »

Anyone else think experienced anything like this? Think Irishness is a weakness in the international business world?

I don't think it is anymore Gob. I don't know about it being a positive either though, I think they've just become more aware of Irish candidates in the last few years.

My sis in an investment banker in the City. At her particular institution they had a thing about UL grads, they recruited a disproportionately high amount of them in the seven years she was there. But they recruited plenty of Nigels and Jeremys from 'top' public schools as well.

Latchy

gob wrote: »

Exactly what I did in the previous interview. I have no intention of saying being Irish is my weakness but it did get me thinking about how we are considered as a race/nation.

What you have to remember is that national sterotypes that have built up over centuries in other countries filter through and are handed down from generation to generation, so even though you might be a confident educated person and have ticked all the right boxes on the page ,you will still find that your 'Irishness ' will be commented upon at some stage by individuals or groups ,That's being my expierence from time to time . How you react depends on the individual .

laugh

All these Oxford, Cambridge etc educated investment bankers have been doing a great job.

Say the people doing risk analysis for Anglo, were they pure ****e or just ignored? Either way whats the point?

whadabouchasir

Sometimes being Irish it can be an advantage when applying for a job.I've heard of one hospital in East london that recently hired 200 Irish nurses.Apparently this is because they get more practical training when in college and so are more sought after than UK nurses.

EKRIUQ

gob wrote: »

That's what I would have thought. Though having spent time living and working in US and Australia I was surprised at the amount of people that don't think very positively about the Irish at all.

Very true , in Australia they seem to think a lot of Irish are thick, possibly comes from the Paddy Irish jokes, but in a interview situation you have the opportunity to put your self across but stereotypes and ignorance do exist even more so from minorities.

citizen_p

well in some places its positive....too have a tolkein irish....

but most of the time being an immigrant is bad enough

whadabouchasir

Mousey- wrote: »

well in some places its positive....too have a tolkein irish....

but most of the time being an immigrant is bad enough

I assume you mean "token" and not the lord of the rings author.

stovelid

You didn't go into the interview with a pig under your arm did you?

dr.bollocko

whadabouchasir wrote: »

I assume you mean "token" and not the lord of the rings author.

Actually the Elvish Irish are well known for their work ethic.

whadabouchasir

dr.bollocko wrote: »

Actually the Elvish Irish are well known for their work ethic.

They prefer to be caled "little people"

Latchy

whadabouchasir wrote: »

They prefer to be caled "little people"

No they dont but their employers prefer to

whadabouchasir

Latchy wrote: »

No they dont but their employees prefer to

So the employees of the elves prefer to be called "Little people".This can't be true as elves are rarely given management positions due to their poor decision making skills and an inability to assert themselves.Unfortunately as a result many elves now find themselves in poorly paid menial factory jobs.

Latchy

whadabouchasir wrote: »

So the employees of the elves prefer to be called "Little people".This can't be true as elves are rarely given management positions due to their poor decision making skills and an inability to assert themselves.Unfortunately as a result many elves now find themselves in poorly paid menial factory jobs.

Actually my bad ,I ment to say 'Employers ' not Employees

whadabouchasir

Latchy wrote: »

Actually my bad ,I ment to say 'Employers ' not Employees

Soon the elves will become unionised and then the tables will be turned on these unscrupulous employers.

nyarlothothep

Whenever the fact that I'm from Ireland comes up I treat it as a matter of utter irrelevancy because it is. Works every time.

Latchy

whadabouchasir wrote: »

Soon the elves will become unionised and then the tables will be turned on these unscrupulous employers.

Yes , Yes, the elves people will revolt

Eoin

Naos wrote: »

Look up the meaning of Positive Discrimination.

Are you implying that there's nothing wrong with it?

Boskowski

I have to admit I never even came close to those circles where it mattered whether I've been to a 'big name' university or any university or the one I've actually been to. Therefore I'm not really qualified to answer this. Me and 99.9% of the other readers here no doubt.

But to me this sounds rather revolting to be frank. Everything about it.

Naos

eoin wrote: »

Are you implying that there's nothing wrong with it?

Nope - I'm wondering if Party knew the expression is all.

Eoin

Naos wrote: »

Nope - I'm wondering if Party knew the expression is all.

I think s/he was just saying that discrimination is discrimination, no matter what spin you put on it.

opinion guy

gob wrote: »

I'm through to the final round interview with one of the large investment banks on Monday so I rang a relation of mine for some advice.

I mentioned during the conversation that I was a bit put off at the assessment centre last week because everyone else was from one of the top U.K. universities (Oxford, Cambridge etc.) and I'm currently studying for my masters in DCU having done my undergrad. in UCD. He told me that alot of these big companies have a rating system for universities (all the Irish ones being 'bronze' with the exception of Trinity which is 'silver').

He also suggested that if asked what my greatest weakness was that I should say that I don't go to a top school and he went even further to suggest I say that it's the fact I'm Irish! He told me that these big companies have diversity quotients to meet and often look for people from what might be considered nontraditional backgrounds compared to their usual intake.

To clarify this relation is Irish himself, educated in Ireland and has interviewed people for these positions so he knows what he's talking about.

I thought I did really well getting through to the final round now I'm beginning to wonder if I might be the beneficiary of positive discrimination!

Anyone else think experienced anything like this? Think Irishness is a weakness in the international business world?

Are you freaking kidding me ???
I think he gave you terrible advice. Firstly if you say you don't go to a top school the immediate question is: "Why didn't you go to a top school ?". Plus its disloyal, and no-one wants a disloyal worker. And if you say your Irish that's also kind of disloyal. I also think they would see thru it as a tactic.
Let me put it this way - I would only say that if you did NOT want the job.

InTheTrees

My niece is doing her masters in Edinburgh right now and its costing her nothing at all so we cant help but be thankful for that.

She's said about 80% of students in her class are from Ireland which makes me curious about exactly what their quotas might be.

jumpguy

Trinity is "silver"? But what if we don't want/have a posh accent and think saying "Samuel Beckett theatre" makes you sound like a ponce?

Cadiz

realcam wrote: »

I have to admit I never even came close to those circles where it mattered whether I've been to a 'big name' university or any university or the one I've actually been to. Therefore I'm not really qualified to answer this. Me and 99.9% of the other readers here no doubt.

But to me this sounds rather revolting to be frank. Everything about it.

True realcam, the world of investment banking is rather revolting (no offence OP)

InTheTrees

Its very common in the US to grade people by the university they attended. Some places are better than others and have higher entrance reqs so I'd expect a graduate from there to be a few notches smarter then their equivalent from less stringent school...

Intothesea

Maybe you could head down the suggested road without appearing to be disloyal -- by saying that your different cultural ethos is a known wildcard that you're sure you can deal with successfully given time. Though maybe that's as good as saying that you used to be Irish but learned to overcome it by focusing on moving to England to take up a great job :pac: Maybe could dwell on the relatively informal business demeanor accepted in Ireland, and that your awareness of it will keep you on your toes. /0.02.

citizen_p

whadabouchasir wrote: »

I assume you mean "token" and not the lord of the rings author.

i knew i shouldve edited that.....but i only noticed in closing th thread and was too lazy too come back.

im guessing your the only guy to notice when somone says somthing stupid, who then proceeds to repeat it to a group, after said stupid person thought no one noticed.




ohh and happy 1054th post to me....
i never noticed the 1000 mark

enniscorthy

YOU'LL
NEVER
BEAT
THE
IRISH

Duiske

Tell them your name is Dooh Nibor, and you like to rob from the poor and give to the rich. That will get you a job in any bank.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Discrimination is never positive. Anyways, I wouldn't dwell too much on that thought. Just go for it and do your best in the interview, think too much about it and you will lose confidence and it shows.

Discrimination may very well be positive, but not in this case...

indough

eoin wrote: »

I think s/he was just saying that discrimination is discrimination, no matter what spin you put on it.

but what does that have to do with the term? all the word 'positive' means in this context is that the discrimination has worked in your favour rather than against you, it has nothing to do with the ethical implications

muboop1

Its very simple, every year there is a ranking taken globally on all universities.

There are A classes (top 50) and B classes (50-100) and simply the rest.

UCD is now a B class, While Trinity is an A class.

The top 10-20 schools again are almost like their own particular league...

The reasons are simple, better staff, facilities and in general higher standard to incoming students, ie they are more picky!

A graduate from business from harvard compared with one from trinity in same degree would always be seen as a better candidate in general I'm afraid. Why? they likely had to work harder to get into the university and are known to produce better quality graduates.

A lot of the UK schools would be in the top in the world.

It's not because you are irish likely, probably these people have what is considered a higher basic qualification.

smcgiff

Worst advice ever :eek: - these bankers may or may not have some intrinsic negative perception (I doubt it) - they'll certainly think you're taking the Michael if you give this as a weakness in such an interview.

They'll most like drop their jaws, give a quick look at each other and rap up the interview sharpish.

If they ask for a weakness it has to be work related, and has been mentioned above mention something that you have had in the past and corrected or something you currently have and are in the process of training to correct, through training etc.

As for positive discrimination - they'll most likely know you are Irish from your accent, unless you're the type to lose their accent after spending the weekend away

As for Irish in the UK - think the aviation industry or in particular Peter Sutherland.

Exon

Don't ask advice, tell him the truth, if he doesn't think you're good enough it's their loss!

gob

Just to be clear I have no intention of saying that being Irish or studying at DCU is a weakness. I was as surprised as many of you! I just wanted to know if anyone had experienced anything like this before?

With respect to the university rankings they have to have some method of separating candidates as over 1200 people applied for the position I'm going for and we're now down to the last 4. There's ample opportunity through the application process to sell yourself and prove your smarts by doing well on the online tests they get you to do so it's not just where you come from.

I always figured coming from an Irish university would be a disadvantage but it had never occured to be that actually being Irish might be a disadvantage.

seraphimvc

FYI,ucd's smurfit has a better ranking in business than trinity - what he said was total BS!go google if ya dont believe!

a degree is a degree,irish uni has a good reputation on that matter too - tell me if you got a 1st class and these people dare to look you down:D

kowloon

An Oxford graduate who comes across badly will lose out to someone from any Irish college who seems like they'll be a good person to work with. Particularly in interviews for smaller companies/departments where the interviewer will have to work with you.

mehmeh12

OP your applying for a job in the banking sector despite the fact that your coming from a country that has failed ridiculously to keep itself solvent. Thats rich. Oh wait its not. The country is ruined. Perhaps the interviewers think your of the same ilk as Brian Cowen?

gob

mehmeh12 wrote: »

OP your applying for a job in the banking sector despite the fact that your coming from a country that has failed ridiculously to keep itself solvent. Thats rich. Oh wait its not. The country is ruined. Perhaps the interviewers think your of the same ilk as Brian Cowen?

So you think I shouldn't be applying for a banking job in the UK because I'm from a country with a ruined banking system even though I have never worked in that system?

mehmeh12

gob wrote: »

So you think I shouldn't be applying for a banking job in the UK because I'm from a country with a ruined banking system even though I have never worked in that system?

Highly unequal yes but no dought the interviewers may be thinking this in the back of their head. Just like the way in Ireland whenever anything goes wrong its some foreigner who is scapegoated for some non existent wrongdoing. Dont be suprised-its just how society is to outsiders. Its not like the english have a great history with the irish anyway.