Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

pigtown

Thanks for the welcome but I've been lurking here for a fair bit and posting the odd time. As for getting with the programme, as far as I can see there are three on this thread.
1. Close the damn thing and forget it ever happened
2. Build a greenway.
3. WoT are evil and deserve all of the blame for WRC problems.

Nobody ever seems to suggest ways of improving the service provided on the line and to be honest I think the reason is that nobody is familiar enough with it. In the same way that I don't know the ins and outs of the Maynooth line and its issues, other commentators don't know what it would take to get more people from Limerick or Ennis or Galway onto the trains.

From a Limerick perspective I would hazard that halts at Longpavement and Parkway would encourage alot more customers whose final destinations are UL or Thomond Park/Gaelic Grounds, as well as providing locals with another option of getting into the city. But that's just speculation and I really feel that feasibility studies need to be carried out before anything can be dismissed.

The Idyll Race

pigtown wrote: »

Thanks for the welcome but I've been lurking here for a fair bit and posting the odd time. As for getting with the programme, as far as I can see there are three on this thread.
1. Close the damn thing and forget it ever happened
2. Build a greenway.
3. WoT are evil and deserve all of the blame for WRC problems.

Nobody ever seems to suggest ways of improving the service provided on the line and to be honest I think the reason is that nobody is familiar enough with it. In the same way that I don't know the ins and outs of the Maynooth line and its issues, other commentators don't know what it would take to get more people from Limerick or Ennis or Galway onto the trains.

From a Limerick perspective I would hazard that halts at Longpavement and Parkway would encourage alot more customers whose final destinations are UL or Thomond Park/Gaelic Grounds, as well as providing locals with another option of getting into the city. But that's just speculation and I really feel that feasibility studies need to be carried out before anything can be dismissed.

The Maynooth line is interesting, it came out of the period where there were three General Elections in a row. In June 1981, the first one, the local Fine Gaelers were circulating possible timetables which looked remarkably like the timetable eventually adopted. In September 1981 the new FG Minister for Transport announced that he had "Instructed" the board of CIE to institute commuter services from Connolly, serving Drumcondra, Liffey Junction, Ashtown, Castleknock, Coolmine, Clonsilla, Lucan North, Leixlip and Maynooth. CIE went along but only opened Clonsilla, Leixlip and Maynooth first in November 1981 and Ashtown in January 1982.


To show how history repeats itself, there was a comment in the following IRRS journal's Irish Railway News spot, saying that the institution of Maynooth Commuter services compromised the operational efficency of the Railway. In practice, for a long long time the service was operated by the rotting hulks of the infamous push pull sets, de-engined railcars from the 1950s which had been nice internally once upon a time, but by then were plastic seated brown and pus coloured interiors.

Only a handful of trains ran, four in the morning and four in the evening and it was around this time that our Wise Ones in the Sindo were questioning the existence of the railway at all during the DART project. Only when DART was commissioned in June 1984 did the seating improve, and only in 1990 were most of the missing stations built, with doubling of the line from Clonsilla to Maynooth as late as 2001.

Now, it is one of the pivotal rail services in the country. Then it was derided as a waste. This is not to say that WRC is an exact parallel, as I would be hopped on if I said that, but when rail services offer people what they want from a journey FFS it shouldn't be knocked.

pigtown

That is interesting, but I'm not going to pretend that I intended any comparison there. I was just searching for another rail line with a name I could remember. It does show that a bit of effort and planning can have positive results though.

The Idyll Race

pigtown wrote: »

That is interesting, but I'm not going to pretend that I intended any comparison there. I was just searching for another rail line with a name I could remember. It does show that a bit of effort and planning can have positive results though.

In a roundabout way I was trying to say that yesterday's political decision can have good consequences tomorrow. However nothing has ever been easy to get good news for the railway since time immemorial - short term decision making and running the railway don't mix very well.

westtip

pigtown wrote: »

Thanks for the welcome but I've been lurking here for a fair bit and posting the odd time. As for getting with the programme, as far as I can see there are three on this thread.
1. Close the damn thing and forget it ever happened
2. Build a greenway.
3. WoT are evil and deserve all of the blame for WRC problems.

.

I think we should take closer inspection of these comments, in particular point 3. No one is suggesting WOT is evil and deserve all of the blame for the WRC problems. Far from it - the argument has always been that WOT are really barking up the wrong tree and their arguments cannot be supported on socio-economic grounds. Demographics, economics and overall demand for the WRC simply do not support the arguments to invest any more public money in the WRC; sooner or later the realisation there are not enough people on this route to sustain or justify the service levels been demanded or even being provided. Its good money after bad. I note the comparisons with Maynooth commuter services above, the simple word which means there is no comparison is this: Demographics. Simple as - not enough people.

The Greenway way arguments however, are based on sound economics (increasing tourism), sound examples - look at what has been achieved for uk cycling tourism with Sustrans getting so many greenways opened there, not to mention the entire global trend to use old railways for this purpose. sound social reasons - we simply don't have walking facilities in local areas in ireland for social walks in peoples localities, sound Health and safety - walking and cycling promotes health, being separated from our dangerous roads is safer. And as it happens where we have created greenways in Ireland they have been an immense success.

Re close the dam thing and forget it ever happened - no comment to make on this sound idea.

The Idyll Race

westtip wrote: »

I think we shoud take closer inspection of these comments, in particular point 3. Noone is suggesting WOT is evil and deserve all of the blame for the WRC problems. Far from it - the argument has always been that WOT are really barking up the wrong tree and their arguments cannot be supported on socio-economic grounds. Demographics, economics and overall demand for the WRC simply do not suppor the arguments to invest any more public money in the WRC. Its good money after bad. I note the comparisons with Maynooth commuter services above, the simple word which means there is no comparis is this: Demographics.

The Greenway way arguments however, are based on sound economics (increasing tourism), sound examples - look at what has been achieved for uk cycling tourism with Sustrans getting so many greenways opened there, not to mention the entire global trend to use old railways for this purpose. sound social reasons - we simply don't have walking facilities in local areas in ireland for social walks in peoples localities, sound Health and safety - walking and cycling promotes health, being separated from our dangerous roads is safer. And as it happens where we have created greenways in Ireland they have been an immense success.

Re close the dam thing and forget it ever happened - no comment to make on this sound idea.

No comment on the fact that Derry City Council installed a cycleway beside the Foyle Valley Railway tourist narrow gauge and their health and safety people promptly closed the railway, never to be used again?

pigtown

westtip wrote: »

1 I think we shoud take closer inspection of these comments, in particular point 3. Noone is suggesting WOT is evil and deserve all of the blame for the WRC problems. Far from it - the argument has always been that WOT are really barking up the wrong tree and their arguments cannot be supported on socio-economic grounds. Demographics, economics and overall demand for the WRC simply do not suppor the arguments to invest any more public money in the WRC. Its good money after bad. I note the comparisons with Maynooth commuter services above, the simple word which means there is no comparis is this: Demographics.

2 The Greenway way arguments however, are based on sound economics (increasing tourism), sound examples - look at what has been achieved for uk cycling tourism with Sustrans getting so many greenways opened there, not to mention the entire global trend to use old railways for this purpose. sound social reasons - we simply don't have walking facilities in local areas in ireland for social walks in peoples localities, sound Health and safety - walking and cycling promotes health, being separated from our dangerous roads is safer. And as it happens where we have created greenways in Ireland they have been an immense success.

Re close the dam thing and forget it ever happened - no comment to make on this sound idea.

1 Some posters on here and other threads seem to hold WoT as the sole group responsible for the WRC. I say this because I remember defending their right to campaign for anything they like and pointing the blame at whomever sanctioned the reopening in its current form. When you speak about demographics you don't seem to realise the location of the WRC as it approaches Limerick station. It passes through some major suburbs and I would argue that the demographics favour the construction of halts in these areas. And RE the Maynooth line, if you read the comments again you will see my reason for mentioning it.

2 I don't question the benefits of a greenway, and infact I note that Limerick County Council have applied for permission to extend the Great Southern Trail as far as the Kerry border, I just wonder why it occupies so much of a thread about the WRC, and no discussion on possible ways of improving the service.

highlydebased

Long pavement and parkway stations would be a waste. Students who travel to Galway/Ennis already use the bus services which operate from both LIT and UL. People wanting to travel to Dublin/Cork etc are highly unlikely to get a shuttle to the Parkway, a train into town and then onto another train, not to mention the cost of it. Bear in mind Dublin Coach and JJ Kavanagh have much of the Dublin bound business from UL.

I'd like to see a proper suburban rail network in Limerick but Parkway and particularly Longpavement would not be the way to go.

pigtown

You might be right. I'm not saying these should be built, I'm merely saying that a feasibility study should be carried out on any and all possible projects that would make the WRC more attractive to passengers.

And just as a thought, LIT are planning on establishing a transport system that links their proposed new campus at Coonagh to their existing ones at Moylish and Clare St. I would suggest that extending it to meet a halt at Parkway and on to UL would do alot for the WRCs popularity among students.

MayoForSam

We should not be confusing the issue by assuming that folks are either for or against the entire WRC.

The second post on this thread from 3 years ago still holds:

corktina wrote: »

potential...

limerick to ennis quite good
ennis to galway may be Ok
galway to tuam doubtful
tuam northward none

IMHO

There may very well be a good argument to be made by local advocates, more familiar with the area, supporting additional stops at Longpavement and Parkway in Limerick. This holds for all urban areas in the country where the commuting population may justify a rail service.

No one is saying a Greenway should be built immediately adjacent to the revamped Galway-Ennis line (perhaps in future if circumstances were to change). H&S aspects would of course need to be considered if this was to happen.

Those of us living near the northern section realise the futility (based on demographics, proposed M17, etc.) of trains ever running again on the track in Galway, Mayo and Sligo. A Greenway should be built ASAP north of Galway (and certainly Tuam) to promote tourism in the west. However, WOT seem determined not to even discuss this possibility and the government / local politicians are reluctant to propose anything too radical (nothing new there).

glineli

Planning submitted to Clare County Council again for the new Crusheen station

dowlingm

pigtown - there is a curious relationship between WoT and IE, WoT always seem to know when an IE press release is coming out and hijack it for their own ends. Their whole attitude of "look what they (usually Dublin) got we want what's due" is not only divisive but often based on false premises.

(incidentally if you have any links to discussion of the proposed LIT inter-campus connector I'd be interested in a look)

highlydebased - to be honest because of the way IE and BE Limerick are unintegrated, I would agree a Parkway halt would be of limited utility - I only mention it because WoT claim people will commute from Galway to UL on the service as it is now and then schlep out on the bus (which when I took it was a decent walk from Colbert). At least the Parkway would halve the connection distance. Also, you mention the Dublin market but I don't see the Parkway station being attractive there because of the need to go in Colbert and likely change trains, just for the Galway/Ennis/Sixmilebridge catchment. Last I heard it was still 5mph in and out of Colbert yard so I figure there is some time to be gained by avoiding going there at all.

Longpavement on the other hand... I think if we're serious about Moyross - let's be honest gentrifying it, a word I think gets too bad a rap - then a railway station is a fairly significant permanent investment in respect of local planning which unlike Broombridge has a significant demand centre Mon-Fri plus an occasional demand centre for leisure activities (Thomond Park) which should put many eyes on it especially if the 309 bus called there too. In the early stages you'd only be talking about a 90m platform, a shelter and a TVM anyway - not even a car park, hardly mad money; no loop but it's not far enough into the block that one would add a lot of flex to the schedule unlike somewhere like Cratloe or Sixmilebridge. The trains aren't tearing onto/from the Shannon bridge so the stop/go wouldn't be from what passes for full speed.

EDIT: as of the 16th the Moyross bus will apparently be the 303: http://www.buseireann.ie/pdf/1347005558-Limerick-city-network.pdf

Sponge Bob

dowlingm wrote: »

Longpavement on the other hand... I think if we're serious about Moyross - let's be honest gentrifying it, a word I think gets too bad a rap - then a railway station is a fairly significant permanent investment in respect of local planning which unlike Broombridge has a significant demand centre Mon-Fri plus an occasional demand centre for leisure activities (Thomond Park) which should put many eyes on it especially if the 309 bus called there too.

Anyone who thinks that €3bn will be spent on Limerick 'regeneration' has another think coming, Moyross will be emptied and bulldozed. Probably seeded with salt and all.

dowlingm

glineli wrote: »

Planning submitted to Clare County Council again for the new Crusheen station

:rolleyes: A village of a few thousand gets a station because of a Celtic Tiger commitment at the behest of a developer, a station likely for the most part cannibalising existing Ennis custom, and wasn't there a dispute over the station/lands too?

L1011

dowlingm wrote: »

:rolleyes: A village of a few thousand gets a station because of a Celtic Tiger commitment at the behest of a developer, a station likely for the most part cannibalising existing Ennis custom, and wasn't there a dispute over the station/lands too?

Few thousand? 864 at the 2011 census.

glineli

dowlingm wrote: »

:rolleyes: A village of a few thousand gets a station because of a Celtic Tiger commitment at the behest of a developer, a station likely for the most part cannibalising existing Ennis custom, and wasn't there a dispute over the station/lands too?

Yes, the local developer wanted more cash so didnt hand over the land. The new station now is also a bit of a walk aswell. I just cant see people using it. Please put the cash towards gort - tuam road!!!

The Idyll Race

MayoForSam wrote: »

We should not be confusing the issue by assuming that folks are either for or against the entire WRC.

The second post on this thread from 3 years ago still holds:



There may very well be a good argument to be made by local advocates, more familiar with the area, supporting additional stops at Longpavement and Parkway in Limerick. This holds for all urban areas in the country where the commuting population may justify a rail service.

No one is saying a Greenway should be built immediately adjacent to the revamped Galway-Ennis line (perhaps in future if circumstances were to change). H&S aspects would of course need to be considered if this was to happen.

Those of us living near the northern section realise the futility (based on demographics, proposed M17, etc.) of trains ever running again on the track in Galway, Mayo and Sligo. A Greenway should be built ASAP north of Galway (and certainly Tuam) to promote tourism in the west. However, WOT seem determined not to even discuss this possibility and the government / local politicians are reluctant to propose anything too radical (nothing new there).

In the impossible event that anyone ever decided to build a railway through Quigley's Point to Derry I would be delighted, and use it. Can't ever see a situation where I would say "no don't want your naughty infrastructure, please make it impossible to use". Maybe it's just me.

The Idyll Race

glineli wrote: »

Yes, the local developer wanted more cash so didnt hand over the land. The new station now is also a bit of a walk aswell. I just cant see people using it. Please put the cash towards gort - tuam road!!!

Dundrum bypass: 1km of road, €1m to build, €13m to owners of land.

Throwing impossible amounts of money into the hands of landowners for roads seems to be okay though.

dowlingm

Idyll - the station at Crusheen probably wouldn't have been on the radar if it wasn't for the developer offering the land. Once negotiations hit a pothole IE should have just walked away. Also: if you're talking about Dundrum in Dublin it's a pretty different situation to if 13m had been paid for a 1km chunk of road in the Crusheen area.

The Idyll Race

dowlingm wrote: »

Idyll - the station at Crusheen probably wouldn't have been on the radar if it wasn't for the developer offering the land. Once negotiations hit a pothole IE should have just walked away. Also: if you're talking about Dundrum in Dublin it's a pretty different situation to if 13m had been paid for a 1km chunk of road in the Crusheen area.

Is there anywhere where we can see the trade off between construction costs and land acquisition for the M17/M18? I cited Dundrum because it was one of the very few occasions that the veil was lifted from the incredibly opaque process of compensating land owners for road construction. A very small number of people have enriched themselves in Ireland for having a holding on the right line on a map, which could well have been shifted for party political reasons.

MayoForSam

The Idyll Race wrote: »

In the impossible event that anyone ever decided to build a railway through Quigley's Point to Derry I would be delighted, and use it. Can't ever see a situation where I would say "no don't want your naughty infrastructure, please make it impossible to use". Maybe it's just me.

I'm not so sure I would be happy for someone to come along and build a railway out the back of my house using taxpayer's (i.e. my) money unless there was a very good business case for doing so and it served the greater good.

The Idyll Race

MayoForSam wrote: »

I'm not so sure I would be happy for someone to come along and build a railway out the back of my house using taxpayer's (i.e. my) money unless there was a very good business case for doing so and it served the greater good.

Well, your mileage may vary. I wouldn't get into a panic about any working railway "spoiling" the Burma Road any time soon.

pigtown

dowlingm wrote: »

1 pigtown - there is a curious relationship between WoT and IE, WoT always seem to know when an IE press release is coming out and hijack it for their own ends. Their whole attitude of "look what they (usually Dublin) got we want what's due" is not only divisive but often based on false premises.

2 (incidentally if you have any links to discussion of the proposed LIT inter-campus connector I'd be interested in a look)

3 highlydebased - to be honest because of the way IE and BE Limerick are unintegrated, I would agree a Parkway halt would be of limited utility - I only mention it because WoT claim people will commute from Galway to UL on the service as it is now and then schlep out on the bus (which when I took it was a decent walk from Colbert). At least the Parkway would halve the connection distance. Also, you mention the Dublin market but I don't see the Parkway station being attractive there because of the need to go in Colbert and likely change trains, just for the Galway/Ennis/Sixmilebridge catchment. Last I heard it was still 5mph in and out of Colbert yard so I figure there is some time to be gained by avoiding going there at all.

4 Longpavement on the other hand... I think if we're serious about Moyross - let's be honest gentrifying it, a word I think gets too bad a rap - then a railway station is a fairly significant permanent investment in respect of local planning which unlike Broombridge has a significant demand centre Mon-Fri plus an occasional demand centre for leisure activities (Thomond Park) which should put many eyes on it especially if the 309 bus called there too. In the early stages you'd only be talking about a 90m platform, a shelter and a TVM anyway - not even a car park, hardly mad money; no loop but it's not far enough into the block that one would add a lot of flex to the schedule unlike somewhere like Cratloe or Sixmilebridge. The trains aren't tearing onto/from the Shannon bridge so the stop/go wouldn't be from what passes for full speed.

EDIT: as of the 16th the Moyross bus will apparently be the 303: http://www.buseireann.ie/pdf/1347005558-Limerick-city-network.pdf

1. Hey I'm not saying I agree with WoT, I was just making the point that whatever you think of them, they are entitled to campaign for anything they want. At the end of the day its not them that makes the final decision.

2. The LIT expansion plans were announced to much fanfare this week but info about the project is thin on the ground. There was mention of linking up the three campuses with some sort of a transport system. I'd imagine it will be a few shuttle buses. There is a thread on it here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056744910

3. I would imagine a Parkway halt with a shuttle would really only serve the passengers from Ennis/Galway working or schooling in UL or the technology park in Plassey. I do think it would encourage students from Ennis in particular to get the train as it's so far from Colbert. And you may not be aware that UL and NUIG actually have an exchange programme that involves students attending both colleges in the same year. This does lead to students basing themselves in one city for the year and commuting up and down when they need to.

4. The Moyross regen plan actually includes a station at Longpavement. I would see demand coming from the bigger population getting into the city or shopping at the centres around Parkway. LIT students at Moylish could also be tempted to use it. Big match days at Thomond or the Gaelic Grounds could possibly see passengers from Galway, Cork and Dublin as interchange at Colbert would be relatively easy.

glineli

The Idyll Race wrote: »

Dundrum bypass: 1km of road, €1m to build, €13m to owners of land.

Throwing impossible amounts of money into the hands of landowners for roads seems to be okay though.

I wasnt talking about landowners, i was talking about the building costs. As far as i know, all the land has already been purchased for the M18

westtip

Well done Galway News - they didn't take the latest propaganda Press release from WOT and just produce it verbatim - they reported the bit WOT failed to point out in their press release

New drive to increase train passenger numbers
September 6, 2012 - 7:00am
by Enda Cunningham
Iarnród Éireann is offering free parking at several Galway stops in an effort to boost passenger numbers on the floundering service to Limerick.

Recent figures showed and average of just 95 people per day were using the route – one-third of initial projections – last year.However, the rail company has said passenger numbers rose by 50% during the summer months.

http://www.galwaynews.ie/27628-new-drive-increase-train-passenger-numbers

50% increase over the summer - so we now rejoice at almost 150 passengers per day on the 12 daily trains - How many fare paying passengers - we don't know but with six up trains and six down trains a day its still an average of 13 passengers per train - a large minibus or small coachload - depending which way you look at it!

If 95 per day was one third of initial projections - then initial projects were about 300 a day - it seems the real 50% that should be headlined is that in the summer - the line managed to achieve 50% of it's projected figures for passenger numbers; my guess is things won't get much better in the Autumn. Just a hunch.

You can fudge figures but you can't fudge the truth. Demographics, not enough people, car dependent society etc etc.

Wote

westtip wrote: »

Well done Galway News - they didn't take the latest propaganda Press release from WOT and just produce it verbatim - they reported the bit WOT failed to point out in their press release

New drive to increase train passenger numbers
September 6, 2012 - 7:00am
by Enda Cunningham
Iarnród Éireann is offering free parking at several Galway stops in an effort to boost passenger numbers on the floundering service to Limerick.

Recent figures showed and average of just 95 people per day were using the route – one-third of initial projections – last year.However, the rail company has said passenger numbers rose by 50% during the summer months.

http://www.galwaynews.ie/27628-new-drive-increase-train-passenger-numbers

50% increase over the summer - so we now rejoice at almost 150 passengers per day on the 12 daily trains - How many fare paying passengers - we don't know but with six up trains and six down trains a day its still an average of 13 passengers per train - a large minibus or small coachload - depending which way you look at it!

If 95 per day was one third of initial projections - then initial projects were about 300 a day - it seems the real 50% that should be headlined is that in the summer - the line managed to achieve 50% of it's projected figures for passenger numbers; my guess is things won't get much better in the Autumn. Just a hunch.

You can fudge figures but you can't fudge the truth. Demographics, not enough people, car dependent society etc etc.

So you found some figures to back up your anti rail agenda. Take a pat on the head.

There is a longer game being played with the WRC, in that ultimately it will connect up Cork with Sligo by rail and maybe even Donegal at a later stage.

The Maynooth line took a number of years to build up custom and so too will the WRC when it is properly expanded. Watch this space.

dermo88

Wote

There is a longer game being played with the WRC, in that ultimately it will connect up Cork with Sligo by rail and maybe even Donegal at a later stage.

The cows are small because they are far away. Look at the picture.

Near....

Far away....

Good. I hope you understand the reference.

corktina

I dunno, do they get Father Ted in London?


Just want to point out by way of an edit , that Cork and Sligo are already linked by rail.

end of the road

westtip wrote: »

the 12 daily trains
six up trains and six down trains a day

between galway and limerick? lucky them. meanwhile its closely followed by the rosslare dublin line with their fantastic 5 down and 4 up trains per day (i know i know) we should be greatful as were lucky to have a train service at all considering irish rail would shut and lift the line if they could but still the fact that a line which has more users is further down the pecking order then the WRC is a kick in the face to be honest.

Wote

corktina wrote: »

I dunno, do they get Father Ted in London?


Just want to point out by way of an edit , that Cork and Sligo are already linked by rail.

So too are Galway and Limerick following your logic.