Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

Markcheese

BoatMad wrote:

Hence the " demise" of railways in ireland was mainly the demise of freight not people

Modal shift, it was easier to just put it on a truck point to point, now most freight is on pallets and in containers and its still easier and cheaper to just truck it door to door,

westtip

From the archives!

I really like the West on Track Website which proudly presents all the past press releases they have published, from time to time it's always worth looking through for those little gems from the past. Here is another for you today, its from a press release issued by West on Track on July 20th 2009

The Western Rail Corridor has already created 400 jobs in the construction phase and will deliver many thousands of jobs in private sector companies, once operational.

It's a classic from the archives. Hilarious stuff.

eastwest

westtip wrote: »

From the archives!

I really like the West on Track Website which proudly presents all the past press releases they have published, from time to time it's always worth looking through for those little gems from the past. Here is another for you today, its from a press release issued by West on Track on July 20th 2009



It's a classic from the archives. Hilarious stuff.

Waterford whispers!

eastwest

What is it with clergymen and transport?
http://galwaybayfm.ie/well-known-clergyman-calls-campaign-bring-galway-airport-back-service/
Are they all trying to go down in history like James Horan? Horan brought the airport to knock, another clergyman wants an empty train rattling around Galway and mayo, and now another lad wants to reopen a failed regional airport.
What all these vanity projects have in common is that they are a huge drain on the public purse, or have the capability to adversely affect existing infrastructure by fishing in the same tiny pond for customers.

Muckyboots

100,000 people travelling between Ennis & Athenry by train....wait for it..... a year. WOT polishing up the old turd again.
https://www.facebook.com/galwaybayfm/posts/1140955689290587

bagels

FFS, this eejit is making a laughing stock of the people. He wants us to ride on the Orient Express to see the abandoned railway station that monentarily appeared in a film made half a century ago.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/orient-express-could-use-railway-in-west-34734372.html

How farsical can this get?

savagethegoat

out of touch with reality or just trying to spin up political capital?

Del.Monte

bagels wrote: »

FFS, this eejit is making a laughing stock of the people. He wants us to ride on the Orient Express to see the abandoned railway station that monentarily appeared in a film made half a century ago.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/orient-express-could-use-railway-in-west-34734372.html

How farsical can this get?

I don't see much harm in this, and his point about using some imagination is well made but unlikely to happen in road obsessed Ireland.

eastwest

bagels wrote: »

FFS, this eejit is making a laughing stock of the people. He wants us to ride on the Orient Express to see the abandoned railway station that monentarily appeared in a film made half a century ago.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/orient-express-could-use-railway-in-west-34734372.html

How farsical can this get?

It shows how out of touch he is. The orient express relies on having sufficient distance so that people can have a leisurely dinner and then a full night's sleep before waking to a good breakfast and a nice day's sightseeing that includes a decent lunch. Now if he thinks he could fit all that into a three hour slow train ride from Limerick to Collooney, I'm sure he can persuade other investors to get on board too. (I'm assuming he's putting his money where his mouth is, or does he expect the taxpayers to stump up?).
He's clearly off his meds.

Muckyboots

Del.Monte wrote: »

I don't see much harm in this, and his point about using some imagination is well made but unlikely to happen in road obsessed Ireland.

He's well out of touch. The people behind the refurbishment of Ballyglunin Station are on the record stating they would rather see a Greenway going through the route. Much better spend potential and a draw for Athenry & Tuam "visitors" plus the bonus of its local amenity value. He's losing and explaining.

eastwest

Muckyboots wrote: »

He's well out of touch. The people behind the refurbishment of Ballyglunin Station are on the record stating they would rather see a Greenway going through the route. Much better spend potential and a draw for Athenry & Tuam "visitors" plus the bonus of its local amenity value. He's losing and explaining.

Is this guy capable of logical thought? It's frightening that somebody who clearly says the first thing that comes into his head without thinking it through has control of any kind of budget.
Hopefully the officials at the department of transport will exercise some kind of governance before he does something really stupid with our money.

westtip

I thought the traditional "silly season" for news was July and August, has Sean Canney bought it forward a couple of months?

eastwest

westtip wrote: »

I thought the traditional "silly season" for news was July and August, has Sean Canney bought it forward a couple of months?

This is too silly for the silly season, but people need to see it for what it is -- a cynical ploy by a member of west on track to delay the greenway project.
Canney knows full well that the train is not a runner, and unless he's really thick he knows that the orient express suggestion is completely off the wall. All of this is a diversion to draw public opinion off in any direction but towards the logical outcome for this asset.

galwaycyclist

eastwest wrote: »

Is this guy capable of logical thought? It's frightening that somebody who clearly says the first thing that comes into his head without thinking it through has control of any kind of budget.
Hopefully the officials at the department of transport will exercise some kind of governance before he does something really stupid with our money.

I am afraid the precedents are not good. When Alan Kelly got into Transport money was found sitting in the Smarter Travel budget. I understand already earmarked for projects that had been through a competitive assessment.

The money was taken and sent to Tipperary to be used painting cycle lanes in the hard shoulders of downgraded N routes.

A hard shoulder is already a cycling facility.

It was seen within the cycling lobby as a bizarre and indefensible use of scarce public money. If he wanted to spend that budget in Tipperary there were all kinds of potential smarter travel projects other than that.

I wouldn't just blame Kelly though, under our system arguably the main job of civil servants is to spend their budgets within the allocated period. What the money achieves can be a secondary consideration.

eastwest

galwaycyclist wrote: »

I am afraid the precedents are not good. When Alan Kelly got into Transport money was found sitting in the Smarter Travel budget. I understand already earmarked for projects that had been through a competitive assessment.

The money was taken and sent to Tipperary to be used painting cycle lanes in the hard shoulders of downgraded N routes.

A hard shoulder is already a cycling facility.

It was seen within the cycling lobby as a bizarre and indefensible use of scarce public money. If he wanted to spend that budget in Tipperary there were all kinds of potential smarter travel projects other than that.

I wouldn't just blame Kelly though, under our system arguably the main job of civil servants is to spend their budgets within the allocated period. What the money achieves can be a secondary consideration.

To be fair to Kelly, he was the one who initiated the Dublin-Galway greenway, which will eventually (it is taking far longer than necessary) form the backbone of a cycle tourism industry. If only Galway county council and the farming lobby could see the potential, and if they could see the logic of extending it to Sligo and Leitrim!

westtip

Muckyboots wrote: »

100,000 people travelling between Ennis & Athenry by train....wait for it..... a year. WOT polishing up the old turd again.
https://www.facebook.com/galwaybayfm/posts/1140955689290587

Spokesperson Colmán O Raghallaigh says the route has surpassed the targets set in the business case and greater investment is required

. - May 2016 as seen in the above link

Business Case for the Western Rail Corridor was for 100,000 passengers years one. Rising to 250,000 by year 5. At one stage West on Track spoke about a passenger demand in excess of 500,000. This group must not be allowed to hijack figures and place them in the public domain as if they speak with authority, they need to be challenged.

galwaycyclist

eastwest wrote: »

To be fair to Kelly, he was the one who initiated the Dublin-Galway greenway, which will eventually (it is taking far longer than necessary) form the backbone of a cycle tourism industry. If only Galway county council and the farming lobby could see the potential, and if they could see the logic of extending it to Sligo and Leitrim!

Uh no the Galway to Moscow route - Eurovelo 2 - has been around as a European project since 1999.

It was not the "farming lobby" that were the problem with that project but the "roads lobby" in the form of the NRA and council roads dept with their gaze on some nice fat, and wholly unnecessary, construction contracts.

If Kelly was ultimately responsible for the terms of reference given with that project then in my view it is a further black mark against his conduct of his position.

eastwest

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Uh no the Galway to Moscow route - Eurovelo 2 - has been around as a European project since 1999.

It was not the "farming lobby" that were the problem with that project but the "roads lobby" in the form of the NRA and council roads dept with their gaze on some nice fat, and wholly unnecessary, construction contracts.

If Kelly was ultimately responsible for the terms of reference given with that project then in my view it is a further black mark against his conduct of his position.

He was the one who recognised the need to build one long route instead of a hundred disparate short greenways. Yes, the coast to coast route was part of euro velo, but he fast-tracked the project. If he hadn't, it would have taken decades as thirty odd county managers fought to put 'nowhere to nowhere' greenways in their back yards.

westtip

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Uh no the Galway to Moscow route - Eurovelo 2 - has been around as a European project since 1999.

It was not the "farming lobby" that were the problem with that project but the "roads lobby" in the form of the NRA and council roads dept with their gaze on some nice fat, and wholly unnecessary, construction contracts.

If Kelly was ultimately responsible for the terms of reference given with that project then in my view it is a further black mark against his conduct of his position.

Varadkar, who was the head honcho in Transport when Kelly was there was one of the key drivers behind the Galway - Dublin Greenway getting started and Donohoe picked up the mantle of both Kelly and Varadkar to keep pushing it. Re the comments re the farming lobby I'm afraid you really have to look at the Famers reaction to the greenway in East Galway,

Take a look at this link http://connachttribune.ie/east-galway-farmers-remain-concerned-despite-shelving-of-greenway/

and this quote from it:

Farmers in East Galway have given a cautious welcome to news that plans for a greenway from Athlone to Galway have been ‘paused.’

and this report also from the CT

http://connachttribune.ie/65-of-galway-farmers-opposed-to-greenway/

I am afraid the farmers in East Galway have really stopped this plan from benefitting the communities they live in, go back to these reports and decide who is stopping this Eurovelo route? these quotes come from the second CT links:

Up to 85% of landowners in some areas of the county have spoken out against the development of the Galway to Dublin greenway......

Galway County Council Director of Services Liam Gavin says....the greenway would generate roughly 10-12 million euro in tourism revenue for the county.

galwaycyclist

westtip wrote: »

Varadkar, who was the head honcho in Transport when Kelly was there was one of the key drivers behind the Galway - Dublin Greenway getting started and Donohoe picked up the mantle of both Kelly and Varadkar to keep pushing it. Re the comments re the farming lobby I'm afraid you really have to look at the Famers reaction to the greenway in East Galway,

Take a look at this link http://connachttribune.ie/east-galway-farmers-remain-concerned-despite-shelving-of-greenway/

and this quote from it:



and this report also from the CT

http://connachttribune.ie/65-of-galway-farmers-opposed-to-greenway/

I am afraid the farmers in East Galway have really stopped this plan from benefitting the communities they live in, go back to these reports and decide who is stopping this Eurovelo route? these quotes come from the second CT links:

Try this one from the Galway Cycling Campaign

http://www.galwaycycling.org/cycling-campaign-welcomes-decision-to-suspend-funding-on-athlone-galway-cycle-route/

The idea of CPO ing a virgin "greenway" through family farms was ridiculous, unnecessary, and doomed to failure.

What is more relevant to the topic of this thread is that the cack handed and incompetent handling of the Dublin Galway project has helped to create an organised anti greenway lobby in Galway.

So the Dublin Galway idiocy has put a bullet in the back of efforts to put a greenway on the old Athenry Claremorris rail alignment. Ditto for those working to achieve Eurovelo 2.

eastwest

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Try this one from the Galway Cycling Campaign

http://www.galwaycycling.org/cycling-campaign-welcomes-decision-to-suspend-funding-on-athlone-galway-cycle-route/

The idea of CPO ing a virgin "greenway" through family farms was ridiculous, unnecessary, and doomed to failure.

What is more relevant to the topic of this thread is that the cack handed and incompetent handling of the Dublin Galway project has helped to create an organised anti greenway lobby in Galway.

So the Dublin Galway idiocy has put a bullet in the back of efforts to put a greenway on the old Athenry Claremorris rail alignment. Ditto for those working to achieve Eurovelo 2.

It wouldn't have mattered much, being anti-greenway is a populist position much favoured all over ireland by local politicians and the farming lobby.
Even the Deise Greenway was opposed by farming groups, some of whom extracted very expensive perks from the taxpayer in return for condescending to allow the infrastructure to be developed.
One farming lobby group was openly boasting in newspaper ads that their usp was their result in Galway.

galwaycyclist

eastwest wrote: »

It wouldn't have mattered much, being anti-greenway is a populist position much favoured all over ireland by local politicians and the farming lobby.
Even the Deise Greenway was opposed by farming groups, some of whom extracted very expensive perks from the taxpayer in return for condescending to allow the infrastructure to be developed.
One farming lobby group was openly boasting in newspaper ads that their usp was their result in Galway.

Sorry but with regret that doesn't wash and is a gross over simplification in my view.

If you want to succeed in a project then you conduct an exercise called "stakeholder analysis" so as to identify both positive and negative stakeholders. If you ignore the interests of obvious stakeholders and fail to take account of them then your project is unlikely to go smoothly.

Dismissing all concerns - particularly from affected landowners - as mere populism and looking for "perks" will do you no favours in my view.

To ask an obvious question. If a group managed to defeat a project as obnoxious and poorly conceived as the Dublin-Galway proposals why should they not "boast" about it?

What went on was a scandalous abuse of power by the official agencies involved without any effort to examine alternative options.

Muckyboots

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Try this one from the Galway Cycling Campaign

http://www.galwaycycling.org/cycling-campaign-welcomes-decision-to-suspend-funding-on-athlone-galway-cycle-route/

So the Dublin Galway idiocy has put a bullet in the back of efforts to put a greenway on the old Athenry Claremorris rail alignment. Ditto for those working to achieve Eurovelo 2.

The Athenry-Claremorris objection is completely separate to the south Galway landowners one. WRC/WRT Greenway is being constantly frustrated by a Western Dev Commision kabal who have had years of unquestioned, self serving, dedication to the holy grail of rail and take great exception to their spin being unspun.

galwaycyclist

Muckyboots wrote: »

The Athenry-Claremorris objection is completely separate to the south Galway landowners one. WRC/WRT Greenway is being constantly frustrated by a Western Dev Commision kabal who have had years of unquestioned, self serving, dedication to the holy grail of rail and take great exception to their spin being unspun.

Sure logically yes. But the bizarre and destructive behaviour of the DoTTS, NRA and council roads departments (both county and city) has contrived to create a county-wide anti-greenway movement.

Muckyboots

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Sure logically yes. But the bizarre and destructive behaviour of the DoTTS, NRA and council roads departments (both county and city) has contrived to create a county-wide anti-greenway movement.

Agreed too. When the M17 motorway was being CPO'd there was barely a whimper. Cycling is just not accepted, or portrayed, as a legitimate form of transport ( in truth we have a long way to go in the West to make a serious claim that it should be) and unlike the simple idea of a road it's often understood as just a, "lucrative for a few", leisure activity. It's like saying to a landowner- we're CPO'ing your land for a golf course or fishing lake.
Disused rail and tow paths are still the best hope we have in the medium term to lay any kind of cycling network down.

westtip

Galwaycyclist, yes there was some cack handedness about the Galway-Dublin Greenway but there was also an attitude that did come from parts (and not all I hasten to add) of the farming community that a greenway is not "real infrastructure" as opposed to the motorway which was all cpo'd land in this very area, and quite a few landowners on that route made handsome money on that scheme. There is still a rather quirky attitude to anyone from outside the parish walking or cycling past our land and houses, one cited reason I heard against the greenway was the fear of crime. In truth the efficient motorway network is probably responsible for more rural crime as criminals can get in and out of hitherto remoter spots of the country quite quickly. greenways don't bring crime waves, just ask in West Mayo.

Galwaycyclist I am sure you are on our side, re the greenway on the WRC, the arguments are pretty clear and outstanding, but for reasons that have been well touted on these pages we are still pushing water uphill. Its a pity, but there you go.

By the way have a look at this short 2 page paper I submitted to DOTTs and all the county councils back in 2011. The example in the lake district I always felt would have been perfect for the west of Ireland.

eastwest

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Sorry but with regret that doesn't wash and is a gross over simplification in my view.

If you want to succeed in a project then you conduct an exercise called "stakeholder analysis" so as to identify both positive and negative stakeholders. If you ignore the interests of obvious stakeholders and fail to take account of them then your project is unlikely to go smoothly.

Dismissing all concerns - particularly from affected landowners - as mere populism and looking for "perks" will do you no favours in my view.

To ask an obvious question. If a group managed to defeat a project as obnoxious and poorly conceived as the Dublin-Galway proposals why should they not "boast" about it?

What went on was a scandalous abuse of power by the official agencies involved without any effort to examine alternative options.

I agree that the DOT handled that one badly, but look at the Deise greenway. Farmers who had no possible claim on the rail line created such opposition to the project that it resulted in a lot of money being spent unnecessarily. One farmer who doesn't keep giraffes had his land bounded by an eight foot fence. Another who already had an underpass under the rail line got a bridge as well.
In north Kerry, farmers along the line have managed to stop the greenway, and the ringleader is a Fg councillor.
It's all about money, with farm bodies so conditioned to motorway compensation that every infrastructure project is seen as a goldmine.

eastwest

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Sure logically yes. But the bizarre and destructive behaviour of the DoTTS, NRA and council roads departments (both county and city) has contrived to create a county-wide anti-greenway movement.

That is only a small part of it.
There is a clear correlation between the farming lobby in Galway and the blocking of the greenway project. If you look at http://www.smartertravel.ie/sites/default/files/uploads/2015_10_30%20Landowner%20consultation%20report%20to%20DTTAS%20%28Galway%20greenway%29%2025Sept2015.pdf you will see that in Roscommon around three quarters of landowners were for the greenway with some undecided and the rest against. In Galway, where the farming organisations were tripping over themselves to find a cause that would deliver them members, the numbers were more or less reversed with three quarters against.
Remember this in the context of a Galway man getting the top job in the IFA, among other things. Ambition and competition between farming leaders can create strange dynamics, with populism always to the fore and logic not always important.
It is very easy to stampede farmers.

Muckyboots

Michael Fitzmauice- unaligned independent "The new Minister for Transport Shane Ross will have to ensure that a proper transport infrastructure plan for the West of Ireland is drawn up and he will have to bypass a lot of the advice that he is being given by Department of Transport.
In the past week we have seen statistics about the use of rail in the Western region allegedly coming from the Department of Transport. These figures are totally incorrect according to independent analysis that has been done. Once again we see no word about any possible Dunboyne to Dublin route or indeed any other routes in the West and I would like to see the figures on those. Shane Ross will have to cover his ears when some of these Department officials are trying to fill his head with skewed information and I hope he stands up to the mark and does his own investigations on these matters.
Over the past few years we know that there has been a chronic lack of transport infrastructural developments in the regions. The statistics will tell you that 80% of the staff in the Department of Transport are from the Dublin area. It would follow that people who live in the Dublin area will want to solve the problems that they encounter in their daily lives. I would like these officials to come to the West of Ireland, or indeed why not move the Department to the West altogether. Let these officials try to move around in the West as easily as they can in Dublin and they might then realise the dire need for immediate transport infrastructural projects in the West. I hope that Shane Ross will not listen to the waffle that I have heard from the Department of transport last week. Incidentally now that Sean Canny is a Minister for State I hope that he will move on the things that he has talked about in the recent past as well, as his colleague Shane Ross is now the Minister for Transport."
"or indeed why not move the Department to the West altogether" now there is something that worked well for the country before! Election please.

eastwest

Muckyboots wrote: »

Michael Fitzmauice- unaligned independent "The new Minister for Transport Shane Ross will have to ensure that a proper transport infrastructure plan for the West of Ireland is drawn up and he will have to bypass a lot of the advice that he is being given by Department of Transport.
In the past week we have seen statistics about the use of rail in the Western region allegedly coming from the Department of Transport. These figures are totally incorrect according to independent analysis that has been done. Once again we see no word about any possible Dunboyne to Dublin route or indeed any other routes in the West and I would like to see the figures on those. Shane Ross will have to cover his ears when some of these Department officials are trying to fill his head with skewed information and I hope he stands up to the mark and does his own investigations on these matters.
Over the past few years we know that there has been a chronic lack of transport infrastructural developments in the regions. The statistics will tell you that 80% of the staff in the Department of Transport are from the Dublin area. It would follow that people who live in the Dublin area will want to solve the problems that they encounter in their daily lives. I would like these officials to come to the West of Ireland, or indeed why not move the Department to the West altogether. Let these officials try to move around in the West as easily as they can in Dublin and they might then realise the dire need for immediate transport infrastructural projects in the West. I hope that Shane Ross will not listen to the waffle that I have heard from the Department of transport last week. Incidentally now that Sean Canny is a Minister for State I hope that he will move on the things that he has talked about in the recent past as well, as his colleague Shane Ross is now the Minister for Transport."
"or indeed why not move the Department to the West altogether" now there is something that worked well for the country before! Election please.

Not only is he off the wall with his call for a minister to ignore the facts, he's Ill-informed. There is a rail link between Dunboyne and Dublin.
This is just a deflection from the bad press he's getting for chickening out of government.