Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

eastwest

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

Is that a catchment area of 100,000 or 100,000 passengers per annum?

Per annum would be only 300 passengers a day

Or a bit less. 4.5 buses, more or less.

eastwest

BoatMad wrote: »

Luxury helicopter myself but....


Let me preface my comment , when presented with a choice of bus or train....,

Or more correctly, when presented with a choice of bus or train and somebody else is paying most of the fare.....

westtip

eastwest wrote: »

Or more correctly, when presented with a choice of bus or train and somebody else is paying most of the fare.....

Or a bus every hour or a train twice a day.

savagethegoat

or buses that actually run through villages and towns where people live and take less time

end of the road

boatmad's comment is correct. for the most part when given a choice between bus and train people will take the train. ireland is a bit of an exception to the rule in sorts but the comment is correct over all.

Muckyboots

end of the road wrote: »

boatmad's comment is correct. for the most part when given a choice between bus and train people will take the train. ireland is a bit of an exception to the rule in sorts but the comment is correct over all.

Boatman's comment may be correct, but it's irellevant to the WRC discussion because "the people" who would need to make the choice of a train don't exist in great enough numbers. This is simple stuff. Running a ghost train up and down between Claremorris and Athenry isn't going to spur a population increase, is it?

Carawaystick

end of the road wrote: »

boatmad's comment is correct. for the most part when given a choice between bus and train people will take the train. ireland is a bit of an exception to the rule in sorts but the comment is correct over all.

Except if you take the train on the wrc to Limerick, you get a bus from Ennis anyway... Why not get the bus the whole way, cheaper, faster, more often, better.

end of the road

Muckyboots wrote: »

Boatman's comment may be correct, but it's irellevant to the WRC discussion because "the people" who would need to make the choice of a train don't exist in great enough numbers. This is simple stuff. Running a ghost train up and down between Claremorris and Athenry isn't going to spur a population increase, is it?

true but let's face it the wrc isn't going to be extended beyond athenry so what else can be said on it?

Carawaystick wrote: »

Except if you take the train on the wrc to Limerick, you get a bus from Ennis anyway... Why not get the bus the whole way, cheaper, faster, more often, better.

a bus is never better then a train. cheeper, sure but then again bus travel will often be. mind you a 26/7/8/900 would be on the same par as a bus. a bus is only faster on that corridor because the alinement is junk. buss is only faster at a stretch on other corridors because speeds weren't improved on the network when the money was been given. "new trains begorra" "shur that will make all issues go away to be sure" was the attitude and it was where a lot of the money was spent. mind you a number of those carriges are now in storage.

random_guy

Muckyboots wrote: »

random_guy wrote: »

Deutsche Bahn have in a few places trains where you just press a button to tell them you're getting off.
No different than a bus.

The trains would be travelling so slow on the north section of the WRC you could just leave the doors open and people could jump on and off, cowboy style, with a minor skip and a few quick steps, at the dozens on the minor and major road crossing, back gardens, cattle crossings and disappearing embankments.

A very good point.

sonnyblack

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

The existing Limerick to Galway train route does not have sufficient passenger numbers.

Multiple buses companies and an imminent M18 motorway have made it a White Elephant. Irish Rail didn't even see the merits of it.

Extending the Western Rail Corridor would be an abuse of the public purse. Even a user friendly timetable won't justify the cost.

I've seen trains from Limerick to Ballybrophy and Limerick Junction to Waterford with no passengers.

Some ideas should be cut down straight away without vested interests becoming involved

See link to independent article and article extract below. does this mean that numbers are growing and the independent tds will have acard to play to extend to claremorris?

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/pressure-mounts-on-fg-to-invest-in-western-rail-corridor-34686753.html


'The first phase from Limerick to Galway began operation more than five years ago and initially had very poor passenger numbers.
However, the most recent study indicates the section between Ennis and Athenry was used by 102,000 people last year.'

eastwest

sonnyblack wrote: »

See link to independent article and article extract below. does this mean that numbers are growing and the independent tds will have acard to play to extend to claremorris?

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/pressure-mounts-on-fg-to-invest-in-western-rail-corridor-34686753.html


'The first phase from Limerick to Galway began operation more than five years ago and initially had very poor passenger numbers.
However, the most recent study indicates the section between Ennis and Athenry was used by 102,000 people last year.'

Leo Varadkar is on record as saying (when he was minister for transport) that the first phase of the WRC was built for political reasons and that it was a mistake that wouldn't be repeated. The same stance was taken by Pascal Donohoe.
What has happened to the economics of the situation in the interim?

westtip

All we can hope is that the proposed independent report will not be like the "ladybird book" of a report produced by McCann, trawling the Minister of Transports favourite newspaper I came across this from 2005 this morning, worth a read - ten years on

http://www.independent.ie/business/ladybird-wrc-report-a-onetrack-journey-into-madness-25985140.html

westtip

Page 48 of the fine Gael independent document reads

https://thestory.ie/2016/05/05/fine-gaelindependent-partnership-document/

Western Rail Corridor:
The new Government will implement an independent cost benefit analysis and review for the Western Rail Corridor between Atheny and Claremorris for commuter and freight use. This will begin within the first 3 months of the government taking office and be completed with 6 months. No measure will be taken to undermine the use of this corridor for future rail use.

As ever with any of these documents the syntax is critical

1. This now clearly means once and for all north of Claremorris is off the agenda.
2. An independent survey has to be just that. The ladybird McCann report wasn't
3. The final phrase in this agreement was I think Sean Canney throwing in what he thinks will stop the greenway at all costs. Actually it doesn't. Irish Rail are on record of saying this: Interviewed on The Right Hook, Newstalk on Thursday August 1st, 2013, When asked about using old rail lines as Greenways Mr. Barry Kenny, PR director of Irish Rail said

"Greenways actually protect the alignment in case we ever want to use them as railways again"

Ergo A greenway will not contravene the government agreement with the independents as in the view of irish rail it will not undermine the use of this corridor for future rail use.

And then as further evidence of Irish Rail backing this position is the agreement in place with Sligo greenway co-op agreed last year in September part of the press release put out by the Western Rail Trail campaign on September 28th 2015 said this>

Following consultation with Irish Rail in recent days, Sligo Greenway Co-op has been informed that Irish Rail is prepared to enter into an agreement with Sligo County Council for the development of a greenway on the route of the closed rail line from Bellaghy to Collooney, similar to the situation with the Navan-Kingscourt line. Irish Rail typically only enters into such agreements with Local Authorities or similar statutory bodies. Irish rail recognises that a greenway is an effective way of protecting the asset that is the publicly-owned route.
Irish Rail confirms that the licence to use the land for such a purpose would be conditional upon the company remaining as exclusive landowners and that the licence would be restricted on the basis that if Irish Rail wanted to use the land to re-open the railway route as an operational railway at any time in the future then the right to have a greenway along the route could be extinguished.

And then of course there is what the immediate predecessor to the current minister wrote in an email to Brendan Quinn on June 22nd 2015

• “Iarnród Éireann has confirmed that when Greenways are being developed along closed and abandoned railways, there is specific provision in the licence agreement to ensure that the corridor could be brought back to use as a working railway, should it be required at a future date.” and the Minister has stated
• “In addition to the tourism and business benefits that Greenways bring, the development of a Greenway along a rail corridor would of course also fully protect the integrity of the corridor in the event of its future reopening as an operational railway.”

Not forgetting of course what Don Cunningham of Irish Rail said on March 4th 2015 at an oireachtas transport committee meeting chaired by West on Track support TD John O'Mahony - this is what Mr Cunningham said:

“The Company (Irish Rail) is open to non operational lines being developed for alternative uses as long as there is an understanding that they can revert to operational use in the future”

All in all, I would say if the Independent economic survey/feasibility study into the Western Rail Corridor comes up with the same conclusions that have been espoused by nearly every commentator on this issue over the past ten years then the greenway should then become the preferred option...but we all know how this debate can run and run!!!!

eastwest

westtip wrote: »

All we can hope is that the proposed independent report will not be like the "ladybird book" of a report produced by McCann, trawling the Minister of Transports favourite newspaper I came across this from 2005 this morning, worth a read - ten years on

http://www.independent.ie/business/ladybird-wrc-report-a-onetrack-journey-into-madness-25985140.html

His article was uncannily prophetic; he got it all right, all the way, but they went ahead anyway and threw public money at a project that was guaranteed to fail.
Now another 'lining up of planets' has created a chance for history to repeat itself, for government to ignore common sense and the best advice possible and throw more tax euros at a bottomless pit while real public transport needs cry out for funds.
If ever there was an argument for not voting for independents, we have it this week.

westtip

Press release From: The Western Rail Trail campaign
May 8th 2016 for immediate release
• Western Rail Trail Campaign welcomes commitment by government to fund immediate feasibility study of western ‘rail corridor’ route.

• Taoiseach’s deal to secure support of Independent Sean Canney ‘may bring long-running debate to a head.’

• Feasibility study ‘unlikely to change position of Department of Transport and Irish Rail’.

A spokesman for the Western Rail Trail Campaign – a group campaigning to preserve the alignment of the disused rail line from Athenry to Collooney by utilising the route for tourism and leisure – today welcomed the agreement by government to deliver an independent economic feasibility study of the disused rail line north of Athenry, part of the northern section of the so-called ‘western rail corridor.’

The commitment to an independent economic study was given to secure the support in government of Galway East Independent TD Sean Canney, a long-term supporter of the pro-rail lobby. The government has committed to funding a feasibility study of the route from Athenry to Claremorris, to be completed in six months.

Brendan Quinn of the Western Rail Trail said that this commitment will ‘at least bring this long-running debate to a head.’ He said that ‘if the study confirms what is already accepted by most observers, that it would be economic folly to spend more money on ghost train lines, then that is effectively the end of the matter and we need to move on.

This vital public asset could then be secured in public ownership by building a greenway on the route which is the accepted international best practice to protect closed railway routes in public ownership. This would open up all the towns along the line to a rural-tourism bonanza as has been the experience wherever this kind of development has taken place.’

Quinn went on to point out that successive Ministers of Transport have clearly stated that the building of the first phase of the rail line from Ennis to Athenry was done for political reasons only and was a mistake that would not be repeated. We have no reason to suspect that the Department of Transport view will change on this matter.

He said that he was pleased to see that An Taoiseach had not gone down the route of promising to build an uneconomic railway to compound the previous errors, but had instead agreed only to fund an independent study.

Quinn said “If a study using tax payers money is to proceed; the scope of the study should consider the view of all stakeholders on the route; the railway lobby, the tourism and leisure lobby seeking a greenway and those that see the route as ideal for ‘industrial strength broadband’. All stakeholders should be consulted in the process, looking at the potential economic benefits of preserving the route as a greenway, until such time as a railway is possible, with industrial strength broadband on the route as well – this should form part of the economic analysis ”

‘Irish rail is on record as stating that they have no funds for the rail project, and that any such rail line would require substantial subvention’, said Quinn, adding that the route had also been excluded from European Ten-T strategic transport planning, which means that all the capital cost would have to be carried by the Irish taxpayer. ‘It seems unlikely’ said Quinn, ‘that this situation will change between now and the delivery of the report, and we look forward to an early decision to connect the North West to the Dublin-Galway greenway at Athenry at the earliest opportunity.

‘We need tourism jobs and local amenities in this region’ said Quinn, ‘not imaginary trains.’


Editor's note : body text 549 words
contact brendan quinn on 087 4198193

Vic_08

sonnyblack wrote: »

See link to independent article and article extract below. does this mean that numbers are growing and the independent tds will have acard to play to extend to claremorris?

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/pressure-mounts-on-fg-to-invest-in-western-rail-corridor-34686753.html


'The first phase from Limerick to Galway began operation more than five years ago and initially had very poor passenger numbers.
However, the most recent study indicates the section between Ennis and Athenry was used by 102,000 people last year.'

Bus Eireann alone provide over 900,000 seats annually on that route, add in Citylink and you have approx 1.1m. Neither would keep running at 10% capacity it would be unprofitable. They would be around 50-50% at least so 600,000 pax per year at conservative estimates.

trellheim

are there actually people who still want trains north of Athenry ?

Vic_08

trellheim wrote: »

are there actually people who still want trains north of Athenry ?

People who want trains: yes.

People who want to use trains: no, but Mary has a pass and it'd be nice to go on the choo-choo once for a day out.

After all Dublin has lots of trains so the wesht should have some too. And remember it doesn't count if it goes to Dublin cause that is not a real train for real country folk.

eastwest

trellheim wrote: »

are there actually people who still want trains north of Athenry ?

There may be a few, but once the motorway is finished the bus services from Tuam to Galway will be far faster.

what_traffic

eastwest wrote: »

There may be a few, but once the motorway is finished the bus services from Tuam to Galway will be far faster.

Would need to put in Bus Lanes in Galway City Centre to be 100% on this but at least these will be used by 100's of local city bus services as well.

Grandeeod

I'm going out on a limb here in the interest of debate.

For a start, I disagree with every aspect of the WRC, including the reopened section. However, I don't think anyone should under estimate the influence of western politicians in relation to a pro WRC stance. While Canney got his "report" (yet another one:rolleyes:) the very makeup of Irish politics means we cannot rule out the latest report recommending something. You may well see trains to Tuam yet.

eastwest

Grandeeod wrote: »

I'm going out on a limb here in the interest of debate.

For a start, I disagree with every aspect of the WRC, including the reopened section. However, I don't think anyone should under estimate the influence of western politicians in relation to a pro WRC stance. While Canney got his "report" (yet another one:rolleyes:) the very makeup of Irish politics means we cannot rule out the latest report recommending something. You may well see trains to Tuam yet.

I don't think we'll ever see trains; there would be uproar nationally if a government that couldn't fund metro north or navan was able to find exchequer funding for a railway that is guaranteed to fail.
But you're right; never underestimate the likes of Canney. He doesn't need to ever see trains on the line, he just needs to make sure that the greenway is stopped and to make sure the symbolic lifting of a single rail doesn't happen.
That's all he has to do. So if the report says that there might be a case for freight if all the roads close and if a massive ore body is found in mayo, then that can be spun to stop anyone making a decision one way or another.
In theory, this report is good, but beware the sly cunning of local politics.

Muckyboots

eastwest wrote: »

I don't think we'll ever see trains; there would be uproar nationally if a government that couldn't fund metro north or navan was able to find exchequer funding for a railway that is guaranteed to fail.
But you're right; never underestimate the likes of Canney. He doesn't need to ever see trains on the line, he just needs to make sure that the greenway is stopped and to make sure the symbolic lifting of a single rail doesn't happen.
That's all he has to do. So if the report says that there might be a case for freight if all the roads close and if a massive ore body is found in mayo, then that can be spun to stop anyone making a decision one way or another.
In theory, this report is good, but beware the sly cunning of local politics.

I'm going to remain comfortably naive on this one. The independent economic assessment on passenger rail has already been completed by the Ten-T funding report, and that was before the motorway was considered. The case for freight too was at least ignored, if not outrightly rejected by the WRD report and that was before the cost of rebuilding Ballyglunin Bridge from scratch was factored in. No Foynes- no freight. Bring it on, I say, and let the devilment begin. Sean Canney has chosen to personalise it and turned the spotlight firmly on himself. Let's see how he handles the heat now. D4 journo's - sharpen your pencils.

mayo.mick

Grandeeod wrote: »

I'm going out on a limb here in the interest of debate.

For a start, I disagree with every aspect of the WRC, including the reopened section. However, I don't think anyone should under estimate the influence of western politicians in relation to a pro WRC stance. While Canney got his "report" (yet another one:rolleyes:) the very makeup of Irish politics means we cannot rule out the latest report recommending something. You may well see trains to Tuam yet.

end of the road

eastwest wrote: »

I don't think we'll ever see trains;

i hope you are right. if we do, it will most likely be wexford who will see it's last line close in part or full

eastwest wrote: »

there would be uproar nationally if a government that couldn't fund metro north or navan was able to find exchequer funding for a railway that is guaranteed to fail.

oh i don't know. i think public transport investment is one of those issues that most people unfortunately don't care about. if it was to reopen, what we would be guaranteed to get is
1. a good discussion out of it on here.
2. a tad bit of ranting on social media by a small few
3. the papers possibly going a bit mad.
but nothing more really i don't think.

BoatMad

i hope you are right. if we do, it will most likely be wexford who will see it's last line close in part or full

yes the opening of the line to claremorris would scavenge the rest of the network, the likelihood is waterford to LJ and/or Wexford to rosslare harbour would be closed

westtip

Grandeeod wrote: »

I'm going out on a limb here in the interest of debate.

For a start, I disagree with every aspect of the WRC, including the reopened section. However, I don't think anyone should under estimate the influence of western politicians in relation to a pro WRC stance. While Canney got his "report" (yet another one:rolleyes:) the very makeup of Irish politics means we cannot rule out the latest report recommending something. You may well see trains to Tuam yet.

Yep GD you could be right and remember there are votes in pensioners and those with "the state package" who get free rail passes, BTW on those claims of 100,000 passenger journies now on Ennis/Athenry posted up a few pages back, Any breakdown on social welfare tickets and paying guests, any breakdown on subvention figures, any mention of the fact the line was built with a forecast usage of 100,000 journies in year one (2010) rising to 250,000 by year five (2015) Any mention that the line is now running at 40% of its forecast usage and this is likely to level off as its norm/peak, Any mention of the fact that had the original forecast been circa 25,000 passenger journies in year one rising to 100,000 in year five, the project would have never happened - and that fares had been slashed to achieve this growth to 40% of original forecast and that the 100,000 passengers would be made up of a fair proportion of soclal welfare "free" passengers, any mention of this in those passenger figures?

There should be in the Government economic report. Let's repeat failure. is that going to be the recommendation of an independent report?

eastwest

westtip wrote: »

Yep GD you could be right and remember there are votes in pensioners and those with "the state package" who get free rail passes, BTW on those claims of 100,000 passenger journies now on Ennis/Athenry posted up a few pages back, Any breakdown on social welfare tickets and paying guests, any breakdown on subvention figures, any mention of the fact the line was built with a forecast usage of 100,000 journies in year one (2010) rising to 250,000 by year five (2015) Any mention that the line is now running at 40% of its forecast usage and this is likely to level off as its norm/peak, Any mention of the fact that had the original forecast been circa 25,000 passenger journies in year one rising to 100,000 in year five, the project would have never happened - and that fares had been slashed to achieve this growth to 40% of original forecast and that the 100,000 passengers would be made up of a fair proportion of soclal welfare "free" passengers, any mention of this in those passenger figures?

There should be in the Government economic report. Let's repeat failure. is that going to be the recommendation of an independent report?

Is that figure of 100,000 the total number of journeys on the Limerick-Galway line or on the new bit between Ennis and Athenry?

westtip

eastwest wrote: »

Is that figure of 100,000 the total number of journeys on the Limerick-Galway line or on the new bit between Ennis and Athenry?

For once not sure will need to double check, in hindsight it appears high, although there was an increase when fares were cut significantly, which resulted I think in a net loss on income. I seem to recall a figure of about 37,000 been quoted for the Ennis/Athenry bit and that was the new figure, let me do some research and clarify, I may have substantially over quoted the numbers! Not like me to give an inch on this subject.:D

In fact the 102,000 came from the Independent last week, who knows I know it has been going up and it may well have achieved its year one target, The Irish Times reported this figure on January 7th 2015:

The first phase of the network – the Limerick to Galway line – has been operational for almost five years. The link, which cost €105 million to build, experienced disappointing passenger numbers in the first year of operations.
However, during the first 11 months of 2014 there was a dramatic increase of almost 80 per cent in volume on the key Athenry to Ennis section of the line compared with the similar period in 2013.
The increase however came from a low base and even with passenger numbers approaching 50,000 per annum on that section of the line, the Government does not consider the figure high enough to justify any further investment in the corridor.

here is the link, http://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/government-does-not-intend-to-complete-western-rail-corridor-1.2056968

schemingbohemia

The Heavy Rail Census for 2015 won't be published until October/November given previous form. So not sure where that figure coming from.

And the Rail Statistics bulletin won't issue until July.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/publications/statistics/bulletins/