Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

Muckyboots

BoatMad wrote: »

A right of way , is a right established over property NOT opened by you. CIE/IR does not have to establish or maintain a right of way over its own property .nor does it have to attempt to protect its property from claims of rights of way, no more then any property holder.

You may be referring to adverse possession

Never seen as many people walking on the line as in the last few days since it was cleared. Whatever the motivation was, it has opened it up for lots of people to use as shortcuts and dog walking trails. A Community taking possession- adversely, you could call it.

Carawaystick

BoatMad wrote: »

all public transport is subsidised and hence looses money , that argument is over , Todd andews tried it and it failed.

How much are Citilink subsidised?
Or BA or Lufthansa to fly from Dublin Airport?

BoatMad

Muckyboots wrote: »

Never seen as many people walking on the line as in the last few days since it was cleared. Whatever the motivation was, it has opened it up for lots of people to use as shortcuts and dog walking trails. A Community taking possession- adversely, you could call it.

Ir tolerate trespass , primarily because it's too much effort to police it.

But you can walk on a rail line forever and not claim any rights over it.

Vic_08

BoatMad wrote: »

all public transport is subsidised and hence looses money , that argument is over , Todd andews tried it and it failed.

Hence, merely because a rail project might need ongoing subsidy is in itself not a reason NOT to do something

The inconvenient fact that the 3 coach services competing with the current WRC as well as the services mirroring the next section you want to see reopened are all running without any subsidy rather destroys your point doesn't it.

You are not wrong that the need for ongoing subsidy should be a bar for a project but the reality that that subsidy is likely to be a three figure sum per passenger journey most certainly is. That sort of nonsense is a shameful misuse of taxpayers money and would be better off used for any number of transport improvements elsewhere.

eastwest

Vic_08 wrote: »

The inconvenient fact that the 3 coach services competing with the current WRC as well as the services mirroring the next section you want to see reopened are all running without any subsidy rather destroys your point doesn't it.

You are not wrong that the need for ongoing subsidy should be a bar for a project but the reality that that subsidy is likely to be a three figure sum per passenger journey most certainly is. That sort of nonsense is a shameful misuse of taxpayers money and would be better off used for any number of transport improvements elsewhere.

There is a view in parts of the west that 'money from dublin' is somehow nothing to do with taxpayers, including hard-pressed taxpayers in the west. This magic money is in the gift of politicians, hence the 'send me to Dublin and I'll get you a railway' brand of politics.
It's over. This can't and won't happen again. When we printed out own money everything was possible, and to hell with inflation, but we live in different times.
Well, all of us who understand reality do, at least. Some comments from the wot camp make me wonder.

cgcsb

savagethegoat wrote: »

it is, as has been said many times, a matter of priorities. There are many routes that would be more cost effective than this one to invest in

Surely Navan to M3 would see a lot more benefit or even some more electrification around Dublin.

cgcsb

eastwest wrote: »

It's not about the need for subsidy, it's the level of subsidy. Ennis Athenry is costing the taxpayer nearly €80 per trip, plus the interest on the capital, and excluding the cost of the 'free' travel additional transfers from social protection. For that kind of money they could all be put in limos.
Given that the first phase of the wrc was supposed to be the bit with the best business case, what chance the rest of it?

In fairness Ennis-Galway could have been a success if built on a proper alignment that made the journey time competitive.

savagethegoat

didn't they waste enough money on it as it was?

westtip

cgcsb wrote: »

In fairness Ennis-Galway could have been a success if built on a proper alignment that made the journey time competitive.

That is the whole point of this thing. West on Track have never been good lobbyists for a modern railway system because they lobbied from day one for a piece of crap. They were steeped in history and obsessed with re-opening the old alignment with its hills and dips and curves and twists. It was the best they could get. Had they lobbied for a fast connection that went, Limerick, Ennis, Shannon Airport, Galway, on a new alignmentthey would have more respect. No government was going to give them a new line/route that would have been far too expensive. What they were given was a sop and a poor piece of infrastructure. The road lobby on the other hand did not lobby for all the old N roads to be widened and wee mini by-passes put in around towns and villages. To hell with that, new roads across virgin countryside is what we needed - and got. This is why West on Track have failed. They lobbied for crap and got it. They are lobbying for more crap but won't get it because the crap they got given doesn't work. Could someone go explain it to them.

galwaycyclist

westtip wrote: »

The road lobby on the other hand did not lobby for all the old N roads to be widened and wee mini by-passes put in around towns and villages. To hell with that, new roads across virgin countryside is what we needed - and got.

Hmmm. Uh no actually what happened is as you described and was an enormous mistake in my view. If you wanted a balanced transport infrastructure with a mix of transport types then that had to start with a national program of town bypasses and N-Road upgrades where needed.

Much of this motorway effort never appeared on any honest road needs study for a country of our size and population distribution. Most of it still wouldn't. Yes the roads lobby were successful at promoting motorways as an end in themselves but that doesn't make it true.

The motorway program was part of a national effort to push cars at any cost and is one of the reasons we now have neither a national system of greenways nor viable rail routes.

westtip

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Hmmm. Uh no actually what happened is as you described and was an enormous mistake in my view. If you wanted a balanced transport infrastructure with a mix of transport types then that had to start with a national program of town bypasses and N-Road upgrades where needed.

Much of this motorway effort never appeared on any honest road needs study for a country of our size and population distribution. Most of it still wouldn't. Yes the roads lobby were successful at promoting motorways as an end in themselves but that doesn't make it true.

The motorway program was part of a national effort to push cars at any cost and is one of the reasons we now have neither a national system of greenways nor viable rail routes.

GW I actually agree with a lot of what you say, my point is the roads lobby were better at their lobbying than the like of WOT. I think the motorway system we got is poorly designed - with the old radial from Dublin being the model, but that is a much wider debate, the west and north west in particular is still badly served in comparison to anywhere on a line south of the M6. You are right though need and traffic volumes do not justify motorway in many parts of the country, having said that driving on a near empty motorway west of Kinnegad is a joy compared to suffering on the UK motorways and they do reduce deaths on the road, of that there is little doubt.

BoatMad

westtip wrote: »

That is the whole point of this thing. West on Track have never been good lobbyists for a modern railway system because they lobbied from day one for a piece of crap. They were steeped in history and obsessed with re-opening the old alignment with its hills and dips and curves and twists. It was the best they could get. Had they lobbied for a fast connection that went, Limerick, Ennis, Shannon Airport, Galway, on a new alignmentthey would have more respect. No government was going to give them a new line/route that would have been far too expensive. What they were given was a sop and a poor piece of infrastructure. The road lobby on the other hand did not lobby for all the old N roads to be widened and wee mini by-passes put in around towns and villages. To hell with that, new roads across virgin countryside is what we needed - and got. This is why West on Track have failed. They lobbied for crap and got it. They are lobbying for more crap but won't get it because the crap they got given doesn't work. Could someone go explain it to them.

WOT never could have justified a new alignment , hence they played the hand they were dealt and they did a good job of it

BoatMad

westtip wrote: »

GW I actually agree with a lot of what you say, my point is the roads lobby were better at their lobbying than the like of WOT. I think the motorway system we got is poorly designed - with the old radial from Dublin being the model, but that is a much wider debate, the west and north west in particular is still badly served in comparison to anywhere on a line south of the M6. You are right though need and traffic volumes do not justify motorway in many parts of the country, having said that driving on a near empty motorway west of Kinnegad is a joy compared to suffering on the UK motorways and they do reduce deaths on the road, of that there is little doubt.

I thank god for our motorway system , one of the few really useful things that came from the cleric tiger yeas

We need to finish it and build M20 , or more correctly waterford-corl-limerick-galway to HQDC standards

the future is personal transport , however its powered, there is no going back to 19th century forms of personal transport no matter what pseudo social engineering cyclists leftist greenies would like ( to use a general characterisation )

L1011

BoatMad wrote: »

WOT never could have justified a new alignment , hence they played the hand they were dealt and they did a good job of it

WOT didn't really even care about Ennis-Athenry. They knew well enough it wouldn't do well, hence the cries for Claremorris-Collooney to be done first.

westtip

BoatMad wrote: »

WOT never could have justified a new alignment , hence they played the hand they were dealt and they did a good job of it

Well did they? They got a poor quality railway from Ennis to Athenry and they won't achieve anything north of Athenry. Do you call that a "good job" to have had 105 million capital spent on an unsuccessful railway that needs far more subvention than the original plan ever envisaged.

westtip

BoatMad wrote: »

Ir tolerate trespass , primarily because it's too much effort to police it.

But you can walk on a rail line forever and not claim any rights over it.

As far as I am aware the only people who have claimed rights over the railway are squatters who never seem to get criticised by councillors or WOT. The owners of the land Irish Rail has said on closed railways they will give permissive access rights for walking and cycling on a greenway on the condition that a railway can be restored at any time it is needed or can be justified. This is the legal position Meath county council have been given in regard to the Navan Kingscourt line and is the position Sligo county council and the Sligo Greenway Co-op have been told will be the position in regard to the Sligo section of the Western Rail Trail from Collooney to Charlestown. As far as I am aware, although I don't mind being corrected nobody from the greenway lobby is trying to claim any ownership rights over Irish Rail as custodians of the public piece of land upon which the closed and rotting railway from Athenry to Collooney sits.

galwaycyclist

BoatMad wrote: »

I thank god for our motorway system , one of the few really useful things that came from the cleric tiger yeas

We need to finish it and build M20 , or more correctly waterford-corl-limerick-galway to HQDC standards

the future is personal transport , however its powered, there is no going back to 19th century forms of personal transport no matter what pseudo social engineering cyclists leftist greenies would like ( to use a general characterisation )

Hmm when this cyclist gets into green its DPM and involves shooting things with high velocity ammunition but I digress

westtip

BoatMad wrote: »

I thank god for our motorway system , one of the few really useful things that came from the cleric tiger yeas

I agree with this, I also think the concept of the national cycle network and the fledgling beginnings made on it with projects like the Great Western Greenway were also a useful thing to come out of the CT years. Minister for tourism in Westport loves shooting his mouth off about the GWG but never says it wasn't him who instigated this project, he inherited it from the previous administration, (don't worry I am not praising them!), Minister Ring has singularly failed to offer any support to the Western Rail Trail campaign despite what it would do for tourism, we think it is because he only sees greenway tourism in one stretch of coastline - from Westport to Achill.

....I wonder why that is.

Muckyboots

BoatMad wrote: »

Ir tolerate trespass , primarily because it's too much effort to police it.

But you can walk on a rail line forever and not claim any rights over it.

Yes, but you can't walk away from a rail line forever and expect the community in whose landscape it blots not claim a right to put it to better use. We should be thankful it's a bunch of walking and cycling fanatics, with a nostalgia for railway heritage, rather than a local landowner with a need for some space to extend his sheds or a householder with a eye on a bit of extra garden.

end of the road

Muckyboots wrote: »

a local landowner with a need for some space to extend his sheds or a householder with a eye on a bit of extra garden.

which can all be removed in the middle of the night with a digger if IE were brave enough or bothered enough to do it

westtip

end of the road wrote: »

which can all be removed in the middle of the night with a digger if IE were brave enough or bothered enough to do it

Mind you it would also help if county councils didn't turn a blind eye to developments on a railway route they claim is an essential part of Regional Planning Guidelines.....but then allow all kinds of developments to go ahead.

BoatMad

westtip wrote: »

Well did they? They got a poor quality railway from Ennis to Athenry and they won't achieve anything north of Athenry. Do you call that a "good job" to have had 105 million capital spent on an unsuccessful railway that needs far more subvention than the original plan ever envisaged.

Im not a fan of WRC, but the line is more then adequate for what it serves , its laid with continuous welded rail on concrete sleepers and is more then adequate for the intended use ages

as for the spending , well that argument applies to all rail infrastructure, but one of the key features missing in irelands rail network is feeder lines to bring passenger to main lines, WRC helps in that .

westtip

BoatMad wrote: »

Im not a fan of WRC, but the line is more then adequate for what it serves , its laid with continuous welded rail on concrete sleepers and is more then adequate for the intended use ages

as for the spending , well that argument applies to all rail infrastructure, but one of the key features missing in irelands rail network is feeder lines to bring passenger to main lines, WRC helps in that .

Sorry if you have misunderstood me, I am not saying the actual rail line is poor quality, it is the fact it sticks to the old alignment - for land cost reasons. A fast line connecting Galway and Limerick if being designed from scratch would have gone Limerick-Ennis- Shannon Airport- (possibly Gort) Galway. The Athenry loop would be cut off.

Re branch lines feeding into main lines. Fine in the nineteenth century but we have a new thing now called the internal combustion engine and buses and cars to get us to the nearest railway station that will take us to Dublin. Lets face it fast links to Dublin is what our mainline train service is about. Your comment reminds of the famous line in Thomas the Tank engine. And thomas was such a good little engine the fat controller gave him a branch line all to himself.

The days of branch lines, unless there is a specific critical mass that can justify them are well and truly over! There was not the critical mass to justify the branch line from Ennis to Athenry.

BoatMad

westtip wrote: »

Sorry if you have misunderstood me, I am not saying the actual rail line is poor quality, it is the fact it sticks to the old alignment - for land cost reasons. A fast line connecting Galway and Limerick if being designed from scratch would have gone Limerick-Ennis- Shannon Airport- (possibly Gort) Galway. The Athenry loop would be cut off.

Re branch lines feeding into main lines. Fine in the nineteenth century but we have a new thing now called the internal combustion engine and buses and cars to get us to the nearest railway station that will take us to Dublin. Lets face it fast links to Dublin is what our mainline train service is about. Your comment reminds of the famous line in Thomas the Tank engine. And thomas was such a good little engine the fat controller gave him a branch line all to himself.

The days of branch lines, unless there is a specific critical mass that can justify them are well and truly over! There was not the critical mass to justify the branch line from Ennis to Athenry.

The experience recently in the uk is that several former branch lines have been successfully reopened , including in Scotland and Wales.

The fact is the numbers on WRC have risen considerably since fares were reduced and timetables altered .

Yes it's all funny economics , but the passangers are travelling , the same experiences were seen when effectively the Ennis Limerick branch line was reintroduced some time ago.

Travel convienence suggests that if people are faced with a relatively long journey to a railway station , then they will actually complete the whole journey by car.

Given the government very heavily subsidies the rail network , if you accept than to better to concentrate on building passanger rail travel numbers then worry about pure transport economics , the public goal being to shift transport pstterns away from road dependency. Non Dublin inter-urban rail should be a strategic goal in furtherance of that policy. Rail access to Dublin is now extremely congested and unlikely to cope with further increases in service without massive capital spending , there is scope to deploy lower cost rail car solutions in lower density areas outside Dublin as feeder services to local major urban centres.

Maintaining strategic rail corridors open for future service re-introduction , including freight is also a strategic requirement. This alone should justify retaining Anthenry claremorris and rosslare -Waterford. Otherwise train paths will take emerging virtually into Dublin, resulting in further congestion and delay.

Your argument sounds like the detractors of the harcourt street line in the 70s , " sure it's a white elephant , bulldoze it, funny that.

There is a key need to counterbalance Dublin and rural rail has a part to play

Discussions about better alignments or new lines are just fairy tales and best left for comic books. Given we won't build dart underground , we never going to build new alignments in the country side

There are many other " branch ones that could be promoted , including youghal cork etc.

Carawaystick

Tuam is the only town between Athenry and Claremorris.
It's population is 8200 from the last Census.

You are suggesting that this population justifies building the line to let these 8200 go to Dublin once* a year or so?
There will be motorway access from Tuam to Dublin in a year. The bus from Dublin city centre to Galway is already faster than the train...



*free travel pensioners will probably travel more often to get the average journeys up.

MayoForSam

I see that the Cathaoirleach of Galway Co. Council has done an about-turn and will now support the establishment of a Greenway in Tuam, he will resign from the Western Rail committee at the earliest opportunity (it states in the full article that they don't meet very often, I wonder why?): http://www.tuamherald.ie/news/roundup/articles/2015/12/02/4110576-greenway-funding-request-falls-short-but-mayoral-uturn-boosts-campaign/

The worm is finally turning if the local politicians are starting to see the light.

end of the road

Carawaystick wrote: »

The bus from Dublin city centre to Galway is already faster than the train...

but way less comfortable and you can really only sit down. the train is far superior then a bus could ever be, you can walk around, work on your laptop, and so on. thats not saying the line should be built, but busses aren't a good reason not to build it. neither are motor ways. the motor ways need real competition. rail can offer that especially where existing.

Carawaystick

end of the road wrote: »

but way less comfortable and you can really only sit down. the train is far superior then a bus could ever be, you can walk around, work on your laptop, and so on. thats not saying the line should be built, but busses aren't a good reason not to build it. neither are motor ways. the motor ways need real competition. rail can offer that especially where existing.

Maybe you've missed the countless threads of people complaining about standing on trains...

Rail can't offer offer real competition on the wrc. The trip from Galway to Limerick is desperately long and that's before the M18 is completed.

savagethegoat

end of the road wrote: »

but way less comfortable and you can really only sit down. the train is far superior then a bus could ever be, you can walk around, work on your laptop, and so on. thats not saying the line should be built, but busses aren't a good reason not to build it. neither are motor ways. the motor ways need real competition. rail can offer that especially where existing.

Can I suggest you actually go on a coach journey? The modern vehicles are much more comfortable now i'm told and I can't say I ever went for a walk about on a train, except perhaps to the toilet, and many coaches have these too now.

end of the road

Carawaystick wrote: »

Maybe you've missed the countless threads of people complaining about standing on trains...

i didn't but i'm not seeing how it is relevant here.

savagethegoat wrote: »

Can I suggest you actually go on a coach journey? The modern vehicles are much more comfortable now i'm told and I can't say I ever went for a walk about on a train, except perhaps to the toilet, and many coaches have these too now.

i all ready did. frankly, they are still not as comfortable as the train and never will be. even if they were, the train always meets my needs more. so you can keep your coaches for those who do wish to use them