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Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)
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well, I suppose the EU don't see the other routes as any more than local routes, which isn't far from the truth. In comparison to European intercity routes, I'd say Cork was lucky to get in!0
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so he's planning to leave sligo waterford rosslare and so on to rot? this is why he needs to be out at the next electionOne of the interesting things that he said was when he put emphasis on improving Dublin->Belfast, Dublin->Cork, Commuter (which presumably means Dublin but possibly including Cork) and that's it. In effect he was saying there's no more money being put into Dublin-Sligo,Galway, or Waterford (the Limerick line sharing the Cork line mostly).
the way i'd do it is have the galway trains stop at the stations on the branch between athlone and galway, and run non stop from athlone, same with westport, an athlone commuter could take up the slack for the rest of the stops as far as newbridge, scheduled right these could enhance the services and allow for limited stop services from galway and westport/balinaghI also think that the idea that non-stop services are politically unacceptable is amusing. Why do people think that they have a right to interfere with how IE runs the system? Because it's in public ownership? Look at BE non-stop services. Why are they acceptable but IE ones aren't?
possibly, and the worst thing is these closures will do nothing but drive more people to cars and it will all be for nothing, as they will undermine the rest of the network outside dart.So eventually we, the gombeen population of this island, are going to prevent non-stop services, and instead insist the trains serve every gatepost, leading to bus services easily kicking the trains services ass (as they are now), leading to a higher subvention per passenger, eventually leading to more closures.
yeah no wonder, as he could shut and rip up south of graystones longford carlow and athlone, replace such services with busses which could eventually fizel out due to possible low demand or "market forces" then people get in their cars, = more road tax, = more revenue, win win for his sort, lose lose for the rest of us, of course thats just speculation on my part but his interview on primetime didn't convince me he was interested in the long term future of the railways that apart from cork belfast and dart he'd like to see the rest gone.No wonder Leo said if he had more money he'd put it into buses!ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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end of the road wrote: »thats ridiculous, surely the majority of our rail network should be part of this plan? it could really come into its own if given a chance, does this mean that all apart from the dublin cork/belfast routes the rest will be effectively left to rot? and once expired it will be shut and ripped up?
I was merely interpreting what he said - but effectively this is what TEN-T will deliver. I don't think it is suggested that there should be any more closures, there certainly will be no more new railways outside the TEN-T route. Re the other radial routes from Dublin, it will all be about maintenance and no further upgrading - there is room for improvement on scheduling and we do need to look at limited stop express services point to point as one poster mentioned above. Certainly for the WRC if Ennis Athenry has any chance of survival a non stop service has to be introduced but with the Athenry stopover I am not sure how much time could be saved. As for the WRC disused sections I can safely say this thread has a few more years to run as what remains of the WRC north of Athenry will remain disused for many years to come. (disused for railway that is)0 -
I think that most people in the region feel the same; they'd love to see a railway opened all the way to Sligo in case they ever felt like taking a trip on it, but they know full well that it will never happen.
From an Enthusiasts point of view (Yes I am one) I would love to see the northern section open with all it's twists and level crossings, it is a fascinating line...it will never happen though I think being realistic.
The real value in this route of course lies in its role as a platform for politicians in the run-up to elections. "Send me to Castlebar/Dublin/Brussels and I'll sort that crowd out, and I'll bring back the money to fix the road/drain the Shannon/open the WRC/move Dublin airport to Knock".
Predictably, they've started on this blather already. Yesterday three euro politicians who haven't been seen for five years have emerged from their hibernation and jumped on the WOT bandwagon. The fact that one of them is a Fine Gael MEP, the party of government, and that government policy is emphatically not to reopen the line is an irony that seems lost on him and his two fellow bandwagon-jumpers. Is he going to resign the FG whip now, before they spend a shed load of money on his election posters, since he clearly doesn't support government policy?
Politics; the art of pulling masses of wool over the eyes of the gullible.0 -
I was merely interpreting what he said - but effectively this is what TEN-T will deliver. I don't think it is suggested that there should be any more closures, there certainly will be no more new railways outside the TEN-T route. Re the other radial routes from Dublin, it will all be about maintenance and no further upgrading - there is room for improvement on scheduling and we do need to look at limited stop express services point to point as one poster mentioned above. Certainly for the WRC if Ennis Athenry has any chance of survival a non stop service has to be introduced but with the Athenry stopover I am not sure how much time could be saved. As for the WRC disused sections I can safely say this thread has a few more years to run as what remains of the WRC north of Athenry will remain disused for many years to come. (disused for railway that is)
the crunch will come when the 22xxx units are worn out. Ireland is well provided for with youthful units mainly, but these will be very thinly spread by that time. I suspect the "other" lines will have to survive on the cast-offs of the ",main" lines. Hard to see what would be available to replace the 22xxx0 -
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i suppose new units? the 22s surely wouldn't be "cast offs" though, as technically they should be running all the long distance lines, its IE incompitents that their not, and government incompitents that their isn't enough to allow for future growth, because any party which stifels it should be out because their not interested in the growth of anything never mind railwaysthe crunch will come when the 22xxx units are worn out. Ireland is well provided for with youthful units mainly, but these will be very thinly spread by that time. I suspect the "other" lines will have to survive on the cast-offs of the ",main" lines. Hard to see what would be available to replace the 22xxxticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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Predictably, they've started on this blather already. Yesterday three euro politicians who haven't been seen for five years have emerged from their hibernation and jumped on the WOT bandwagon. The fact that one of them is a Fine Gael MEP, the party of government, and that government policy is emphatically not to reopen the line is an irony that seems lost on him and his two fellow bandwagon-jumpers. Is he going to resign the FG whip now, before they spend a shed load of money on his election posters, since he clearly doesn't support government policy?
Politics; the art of pulling masses of wool over the eyes of the gullible.
I wasn't surprised to read that Jim Higgins and Pat the Cope made this statement - but surprised at someone who has a semblance of intelligence, or at least I thought she had, Marian Harkin, who has continued along this old mantra, clearly the statement has been driven by the greenway agenda,the fact the statement said this
means the statement has been driven by the greenway agenda, which is good news for the election - the greenway v Railway is now clearly an election issue so we can thank West on Track for participating in the agenda we have set - At least the electorate can vote for dinosaurs or for candidates with some forward thinking, but there is more to come on that...Are you listening WoT?????that the existing railway should be reserved for rail use only.
Read the WoT statement here https://www.facebook.com/WestOnTrack?fref=ts you would think all their birthdays had come at once!0 -
end of the road wrote: »i suppose new units? the 22s surely wouldn't be "cast offs" though, as technically they should be running all the long distance lines, its IE incompitents that their not, and government incompitents that their isn't enough to allow for future growth, because any party which stifels it should be out because their not interested in the growth of anything never mind railways
Didn't Leo rule out investment in the also ran lines?0 -
he did i believe, but he isn't going to be transport minister forever (unless he overthrows the government and becomes dictator of ireland which if that ever happened i wouldn't be here to see the fallout) his agenda will only be on the tabel as long as he is transport ministerDidn't Leo rule out investment in the also ran lines?ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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It doesn't matter who is the Minister, it's EU policy not Leo's0
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It doesn't really matter whose name is over the door, Leo or his successors for the foreseeable future. There are a few facts at play here, and they need to be taken into account. Anything else is just dreaming, fantasy stuff.end of the road wrote: »he did i believe, but he isn't going to be transport minister forever (unless he overthrows the government and becomes dictator of ireland which if that ever happened i wouldn't be here to see the fallout) his agenda will only be on the tabel as long as he is transport minister
1. The country is broke. Not just short of money, we're lumbered with an almost unbelievable level of national and personal debt and a tax burden that is widening all the time to pay for it.
2. The political decision (to use Leo Varadkar's words) to open Ennis-Athenry has proved to be a failure, delivering a mere fraction of the numbers promised by a poorly-informed pro-rail lobby group. No government will be anxious to repeat this disastrous project further up the line, even if they have the money.
3. No government (even in the heady Celtic tiger days) ever promised to reopen Claremorris-Collooney. Given that we will never again see such free-spending madness in the department of transport, the future for this section is either amenity or loss to squatters. There is no third option.
4. The Gort-Tuam motorway will kill off any rationale for reopening Athenry-Tuam, since a bus will be able to deliver Tuam commuters to their jobs in about a third of the time that the detour through Athenry would take.
5. It will also drive the final nail in the coffin of the loss-making Ennis-Athenry section. At some stage, a minister will be faced with biting the bullet on this heavy drain on the public purse.
I have no doubt that the three politicians who jumped on the WOT bandwagon this week know all this, but a bit of cynicism never lost anyone favour with the electorate in that part of the world. Telling people what they want to hear, instead of the facts, is what gets votes; essentially, people will believe anything.
Drain the Shannon, anyone?0 -
They've invested in a lot of them; they turned them into cycle paths and created a booming tourism product that has brought life back to remote communities.end of the road wrote: »yes sorry your right, i forgot, bet you the EU bosses france and germany will invest in their "margianel" railways along with their major ones though
A million Germans take a cycling holiday each year. None of them come to Ireland, we have no cycle ways that can accommodate a cyclist for a week or a fortnight.
An empty train rattling through a small town brings zero benefits, except maybe that you can set your watch by it, like the old days. Does anyone in somewhere like Claremorris really believe that a Galway-Sligo train will do anything for their town? You'd have to block the tracks and force the passenger(s) off; they would hardly get off voluntarily.0 -
end of the road wrote: »yes sorry your right, i forgot, bet you the EU bosses france and germany will invest in their "margianel" railways along with their major ones though
They have specifically said they wont. The "other" lines are not even recognised in the plans0 -
in fairness i wasn't referring to the WRC, i'm worried enough about the rest never mind ennis athenry and specially galway Claremorris Collooney.It doesn't really matter whose name is over the door, Leo or his successors for the foreseeable future. There are a few facts at play here, and they need to be taken into account. Anything else is just dreaming, fantasy stuff.
1. The country is broke. Not just short of money, we're lumbered with an almost unbelievable level of national and personal debt and a tax burden that is widening all the time to pay for it.
2. The political decision (to use Leo Varadkar's words) to open Ennis-Athenry has proved to be a failure, delivering a mere fraction of the numbers promised by a poorly-informed pro-rail lobby group. No government will be anxious to repeat this disastrous project further up the line, even if they have the money.
3. No government (even in the heady Celtic tiger days) ever promised to reopen Claremorris-Collooney. Given that we will never again see such free-spending madness in the department of transport, the future for this section is either amenity or loss to squatters. There is no third option.
4. The Gort-Tuam motorway will kill off any rationale for reopening Athenry-Tuam, since a bus will be able to deliver Tuam commuters to their jobs in about a third of the time that the detour through Athenry would take.
5. It will also drive the final nail in the coffin of the loss-making Ennis-Athenry section. At some stage, a minister will be faced with biting the bullet on this heavy drain on the public purse.
I have no doubt that the three politicians who jumped on the WOT bandwagon this week know all this, but a bit of cynicism never lost anyone favour with the electorate in that part of the world. Telling people what they want to hear, instead of the facts, is what gets votes; essentially, people will believe anything.
Drain the Shannon, anyone?ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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end of the road wrote: »in fairness i wasn't referring to the WRC, i'm worried enough about the rest never mind ennis athenry and specially galway Claremorris Collooney.
politics will get in the way of any rational to close anymore lines, although nenagh line may struggle. WRC phase one is safely in the game now and won't be closed, for the same reasons it was opened - political. Everything else East West says is true. Its shameful how some of these western politicians are still using this sham for political gain - but I think the public are beginning to see through it.0 -
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From the West on Track FB page.Three sitting Western MEPs reiterate support for development of Western Rail Corridor
12 March 2014
The three sitting MEPs for the former Connacht-Ulster constituency, Jim Higgins MEP, Marian Harkin MEP and Pat the Cope Gallagher MEP, have today issued a joint statement of support for the development of the Western Rail Corridor and for the West on Track campaign.
In their statement, sent to West on Track, they confirm that the development of road, rail, ports, airports and broadband infrastructure in the West and North-West, as part of the Western Arc, remains their immediate priority as European representatives, and that the existing railway should be reserved for rail use only.
A West on Track spokesman welcomed the statement and said that messages of support had also been received from a number of other candidates.
What shall we call them "The Western Rail Troika" is my suggestion.
What a bunch of wally's0 -
note that they put ROAD first though....0
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From the West on Track FB page.
What shall we call them "The Western Rail Troika" is my suggestion.
What a bunch of wally's
Are they not entitled to their opinion? Just like the supporters of the greenway cyclic campaign are?
These guys have an elected mandate and we live in a democracy here. It's not Syria or Ukraine
It is fair that the west of Ireland is treated like other parts of the country is it not when it comes to infrastructure of amenities including transportation? The west if Ireland will never get a chance to rise unless government in the capital city wakes up and acknowledge we exist. Donegal, Leitrim, Sligo, Roscommon will I continue? All counties in the west ignored by central government. Where are the leaders with the voices representing the west? Nowhere!
Entitled to a transport infrastructure...
We may as well become a Catalonia or Basque region and break away and keep our oil and gas reserves, because at the moment that's the way we may aswell be.0 -
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Are they not entitled to their opinion? Just like the supporters of the greenway cyclic campaign are?
These guys have an elected mandate and we live in a democracy here. It's not Syria or Ukraine
It is fair that the west of Ireland is treated like other parts of the country is it not when it comes to infrastructure of amenities including transportation? The west if Ireland will never get a chance to rise unless government in the capital city wakes up and acknowledge we exist. Donegal, Leitrim, Sligo, Roscommon will I continue? All counties in the west ignored by central government. Where are the leaders with the voices representing the west? Nowhere!
Entitled to a transport infrastructure...
We may as well become a Catalonia or Basque region and break away and keep our oil and gas reserves, because at the moment that's the way we may aswell be.
Ah yes the poor wesht. Sure it needs trains that no one will ride on. 20 years ago it took 7 hours to drive from Dublin port to Ballina. It now takes 3 hours. Why. Because the roads to the west are much better.
Five years ago I only had dial up network poor quality broadband, now, I don't yet have fibre optic but I have a very good connection to the www
I live in a village in the west of Ireland with a five year old primary health care centre, a purpose built pre-school childcare facility, a post office, a national school, a secodary school, local shops and pubs I can walk to. due to improvements to the N59 Im only half an hour away from an A&E. I can now drive to Dublin in 3 hours not 6 hour. Every decent size town in the west has the usual array of national brand stores. There are also two ATMs in the village - 15 years ago there were none.
My rent is 40% of what it would be in Dublin. The quality of life is twice what it would be in Dublin. A pint of Guinness is the outrageous €4 last week in Dublin I was asked for €4.80 for a pint of the same plain. I now actually ask how much a pint is before I order it in a pub in Dublin. Ah yes the poor wesht.
I was in county Wicklow last week, even a bale of briquettes was more expensive in local shops than it is in the poor wesht.
Oh yes I am three hours from the west end of London, door to door via Knock Airport, which has I think 6/7 daily flights to the UK, flights to Germany, Spain etc etc
Ah the poor wesht. but shhh.... don't tell to many people or they will all want to come out here.0 -
It's not their opinions I'd have a problem with, it's their absolute cynicism in jumping on a bandwagon that they know to be a complete con-job.Are they not entitled to their opinion? Just like the supporters of the greenway cyclic campaign are?
These guys have an elected mandate and we live in a democracy here. It's not Syria or Ukraine
It is fair that the west of Ireland is treated like other parts of the country is it not when it comes to infrastructure of amenities including transportation? The west if Ireland will never get a chance to rise unless government in the capital city wakes up and acknowledge we exist. Donegal, Leitrim, Sligo, Roscommon will I continue? All counties in the west ignored by central government. Where are the leaders with the voices representing the west? Nowhere!
Entitled to a transport infrastructure...
We may as well become a Catalonia or Basque region and break away and keep our oil and gas reserves, because at the moment that's the way we may aswell be.
All of them are sitting MEPs, so they all know full well that there's not a snowball's chance in hell of the EU doing an about turn and providing finance to extend a loss-making branch line along a thinly populated route using a twisting alignment with hundreds of crossings on it, particularly when the government doesn't support it. They're just cynically telling gullible people what they want to hear.
You can understand the Shinners waffling on about fairytale projects; opposition is a great place for fantasy. Sitting MEPs know the truth, but these three wafflers are happy to promise whatever they think people want to hear. When they don't deliver, it's easy to blame 'government' or the EU, or 'that crowd up in Dublin'.
Mayo has a taoiseach and a tainiste, so how come west on track hasn't persuaded either of them to come out with this nonsense?0 -
So all that can be discussed is a cycle way then...
That must be you then that passes me out going to Dublin in 3 hours, the road ain't that great, good but not great.
If it's that good of a road how come largo foods are moving operations to Meath? If the infrastructure is that good in the west how come there are no multi national or international company's investing here? Where is the vision for the west of Ireland to come out of the duldrums of 1930? If we are left by the way side of central government in the global tropical city, there is an argument of a breakaway, our own country as we might aswell look after ourselves and our own riches0 -
So all that can be discussed is a cycle way then...
That must be you then that passes me out going to Dublin in 3 hours, the road ain't that great, good but not great.
If it's that good of a road how come largo foods are moving operations to Meath? If the infrastructure is that good in the west how come there are no multi national or international company's investing here? Where is the vision for the west of Ireland to come out of the duldrums of 1930? If we are left by the way side of central government in the global tropical city, there is an argument of a breakaway, our own country as we might aswell look after ourselves and our own riches
Largo don't use rail freight at all; they have their own truck fleet. Rail wouldn't suit their product; it's too light and bulky.0 -
Are you listening at all? The Ten T plan doesn't even recognise the Dublin to Galway line for investment (or any other than the Belfast/Dublin/Cork corridor) and those MEPs KNOW that and yet in a squalid attempt to gain votes they jump on the bandwagon of "the poor west we must have the line from Athenry to Sligo re-opened if we are going to prosper at all"
They know this won't ever happen, and they are pulling the wool over the eyes of people like you, it's truly cynical what they are doing. It's up to people like you who care about the west to open your eyes and see what you REALLY need.
Look at the results of the rest of the WRC...it won't be any better further north and there are so many ways money could be spent to benefit you other than this White Elephant0 -
On this forum, we can and do discuss all potential uses for this asset, including the creation of a cycling and walking path that will protect he asset until maybe things change in twenty or thirty years. However it behoves elected representatives on publicly-funded salaries to discuss this asset in terms of available and realistic options, and not to tell lies to people. The truth is that funding for a railway is neither available nor realistic.So all that can be discussed is a cycle way then....
The behaviour of this troika -- three politicians who haven't a good word to say for each other for five years -- is cynical in the extreme.
Just look at what they've done. They have come together to issue a statement designed to give them electoral advantage, when they above anyone know the true story-- this railway dream is dead and there is no possible funding stream to make it otherwise.
Do some people still not get that? Where do they think the billion euro to build this vanity project will come from? It's not coming from Europe; the TEN-T budget is agreed and won't be revisited. It's not coming from government; the minister has clearly stated that there's no money, that the first phase was a mistake, and that government's priority is to keep existing lines open.
So, where is the money coming from? You believe the troika, apparently, so tell us where the money is coming from?
MOFNEY, as someone once said.
(Oh, there's no F in money).0 -
So all that can be discussed is a cycle way then...
That must be you then that passes me out going to Dublin in 3 hours, the road ain't that great, good but not great.
If it's that good of a road how come largo foods are moving operations to Meath? If the infrastructure is that good in the west how come there are no multi national or international company's investing here? Where is the vision for the west of Ireland to come out of the duldrums of 1930? If we are left by the way side of central government in the global tropical city, there is an argument of a breakaway, our own country as we might aswell look after ourselves and our own riches
180 miles, average speed 60 mph is within the legal limit, as the last 50 miles is now in a 79 mph speed limit. Re all this investing here business, you seemingly don't get it that if all the business in tourism in tiny little businesses was rolled up together then the corporate body of west of ireland tourism inc would be every bit as a important as any multi-national. Pray tell me how many jobs have been created as a result of the Athenry Ennis line? How many jobs have been created in Newport/Mulranny etc as a result of the GWG - the answer is quite a lot. The west of Ireland no more than Brittany in the west of France or kyntyre in the west of scotland is not going to attract large multi-national employers. The vision to take the west of ireland out of the doldrums is a sustainable tourism industry with lots of small service providers (activity tourism like cycling) and good quality hi-tech businesses that need good telecoms infrastructure (one of the things we promote using this route for as well as a greenway) and good quality agri-food industry - which is what the natural gas should be used for if you want manufacturing industry here.
A frigging railway from Athenry to Sligo will not bring in a single job bar the construction phase and potentiallly a few more rosters could be created for pampered workers of irish rail.
The cycle way on the WRC route will not be the answer to everything! But it will start to help achieve a vision for tourism in the west that clearly some people cannot see, including the Western Rail Troika (lets just call them the WRT)0 -
A recurring feature if this debate is the lack of logical argument coming from the pro-rail lobby.
There are two fundamental questions that I have failed to get answers to; campaigners for rail always gloss over them with the 'build it and they will come' argument, despite this being proved a total failure on phase one.
The first question is this: Where will the money to build the railway come from? It's not coming from Europe, and the government hasn't got it and have confirmed that even if they had, they wouldn't spend it on a new railway in a sparsely populated area. So, where is the money coming from?
The second question assumes that the money comes from somewhere, and it is this: What will this railway do for the region if it is built? Forget wooly projections coming from the same school of thought that projected 200,000 passengers on Ennis-Athenry, what exactly will this railway do for towns like Claremorris, Collooney and the places in between? Will it bring tourists? Hardly, unless people looking out the window of a passing train are seen as a benefit. Tourists are like you and I, they are not a separate species. If they have a rail option between Galway and Sligo, what possible reason would they have to get off in Claremorris, which quite frankly has few attractions for a rail traveler? Somebody on a bike has no choice but to stop a while, but if Claremorris is going to be attractive to rail travellers it would already be booming with car travellers.
Likewise the notion that railways bring industry is daft, and isn't even worthy of dissection. If it was the case, Athenry or Limerick Junction would be the employment hotspots of Ireland. The criteria for location of industry have little or nothing to do with railways.
So, can somebody please tell me, where is the money coming from to build the railway, and what benefit exactly will a railway between Claremorris and Collooney bring to that region?0 -
it's their absolute cynicism in jumping on a bandwagon that they know to be a complete con-job ...They're just cynically telling gullible people what they want to hear.these three wafflers are happy to promise whatever they think people want to hear.
Why do these three politicians (and plenty of others besides) think that people want to hear this - in other words why is this popular? For that you must concede that West-On-Track have done a great job in convincing people that this is a great idea. Irish politicians are renowned for having their ear to the ground so what is it that they are hearing that convinces them to "jump on the bandwagon"?They have come together to issue a statement designed to give them electoral advantage
I can understand one aspect of it - people look at a built piece of infrastructure and say that it's a shame it has been let go. The problem is that they haven't, up until now, been convinced that there could be another use for it. Or at least, they are not communicating that to politicians.
In other words, if politicians are simply reflecting the views/concerns of the electorate, then greenway support groups have not been as successful in the electorate as West On Track were.0 -
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In other words, if politicians are simply reflecting the views/concerns of the electorate, then greenway support groups have not been as successful in the electorate as West On Track were.
Watch this space, I don't think West on Track are going to have the unanimous support for the Railway that they have always had in the past at elections, local or European.
The western rail Troika have been in Brussels for too long and not listening to what is going on at home. They still think West on Track represent public opinion, they don't and doing a volte face is not our politicians style. But they are not the only candidates in the race and they do not represent the views of all everyone on the hustings.0
This discussion has been closed.
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