Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

westtip

corktina wrote: »

I believe the 8 figure came from analysis of IEs passengers figures.... passengers divided by number of trains. I think it was westtip who did the math

Don't think RTE was quoting me. I think last years figures came out at about 8.5 people per train based on number of passengers/number of trains, this figure actually went up to about 11 per train when they ran the price promotions recently and I did a detailed post on that - which on this thread. We have all debated it a lot, Varadkar hit the nail on the head with it last week.

relaxed

westtip wrote: »

Don't think RTE was quoting me. I think last years figures came out at about 8.5 people per train based on number of passengers/number of trains, this figure actually went up to about 11 per train when they ran the price promotions recently and I did a detailed post on that - which on this thread. We have all debated it a lot, Varadkar hit the nail on the head with it last week.

I wonder what the numbers will be like after the long closure due to the line being flooded?

westtip

relaxed wrote: »

I wonder what the numbers will be like after the long closure due to the line being flooded?

Is it still closed?

relaxed

westtip wrote: »

Is it still closed?

Yes:

04 February 2014
Due to severe flooding at Ballycar, bus transfers will remain in operation between Limerick and Ennis for approximately 6 weeks.

jmlfc

That'll help!

theKillerBite

westtip wrote: »

Don't think RTE was quoting me. I think last years figures came out at about 8.5 people per train based on number of passengers/number of trains, this figure actually went up to about 11 per train when they ran the price promotions recently and I did a detailed post on that - which on this thread. We have all debated it a lot, Varadkar hit the nail on the head with it last week.

Let me try the Math:

• 2,872 journeys were made in the first four weeks of 2014 - Therefore for YE 2014 = 37,336 passengers (2,872/4*52wks)
• Trains per Year = 3,016 (58 *52wks) http://www.irishrail.ie/media/11-galwaylimerickcorktralee250920131.pdf?v=gc4dypo

Therefore passengers per Train = 12.37 (37,336/3,016)

Passenger numbers have gone up by 38% according to IE, yet fares have gone down by 66% (€9.99 to €5.99)

corktina

theKillerBite wrote: »

Let me try the Math:

• 2,872 journeys were made in the first four weeks of 2014 - Therefore for YE 2014 = 37,336 passengers (2,872/4*52wks)
• Trains per Year = 3,016 (58 *52wks) http://www.irishrail.ie/media/11-galwaylimerickcorktralee250920131.pdf?v=gc4dypo

Therefore passengers per Train = 12.37 (37,336/3,016)

Passenger numbers have gone up by 38% according to IE, yet fares have gone down by 66% (€9.99 to €5.99)

12 passengers per train! score...

GerardKeating

corktina wrote: »

12 passengers per train! score...

That's a 50% increase on the route. If this continues, in 20/30 years we might have a viable route to rival the DART.

eastwest

GerardKeating wrote: »

That's a 50% increase on the route. If this continues, in 20/30 years we might have a viable route to rival the DART.

If this continues, fares on the WART (western area rapid transit) will be somewhere in the minuses -- they'll be giving free tickets and a few quid with them.

corktina

how does the new fare compare to other similar routes and how many passengers do they carry one wonders.

westtip

corktina wrote: »

how does the new fare compare to other similar routes and how many passengers do they carry one wonders.

that is an interesting question corky. If figures were available I guess you could compare the "intercity" passenger numbers between say Athlone and Galway. About the same distant apart from Athlone to Galway, as say Limerick to Galway, ok population size is not comparable for Limerick/Athlone but the number of trains is probably about the same, but to get a fair comparison you would need to measure the actual passenger traffic between the two urban areas - and not count people passing through Athlone en route to and from Dublin.

My gut feeling is that there wouldn't be a great deal in it in comparing with the WRC - I'm not sure there is an "intercity" railway market between our large towns/provincial cities and the only intercity trade that exists is between the large towns/provincial cities and Dublin. For example if I get on the train in Sligo, to go to Dublin, I don't think I have ever seen people getting off the train at say Mullingar, people use the train from provincial areas to get to Dublin. This theory effectively means - the arguments for intercity routes between Limerick and Galway are meaningless - the market does not exist in sufficient numbers to justify rail investment.

But I think we know that don't we.

corktina

I'd agree, but add journeys into Cork and perhaps other Cities. In other words, Commuter traffic rather than InterCity in essence. As for the Cork line, I doubt anyone commutes to Cork from much further out than Mallow.

bonerjams03

theKillerBite wrote: »

Let me try the Math:

• 2,872 journeys were made in the first four weeks of 2014 - Therefore for YE 2014 = 37,336 passengers (2,872/4*52wks)
• Trains per Year = 3,016 (58 *52wks) http://www.irishrail.ie/media/11-galwaylimerickcorktralee250920131.pdf?v=gc4dypo

Therefore passengers per Train = 12.37 (37,336/3,016)

Passenger numbers have gone up by 38% according to IE, yet fares have gone down by 66% (€9.99 to €5.99)

Again though, does anyone know where these figures are coming from? There is no press release from Irish Rail so far as I can see...

foggy_lad

IRcolm wrote: »

Again though, does anyone know where these figures are coming from? There is no press release from Irish Rail so far as I can see...

AFAIK they are calculated from figures released by Irish rail for the line with adjustments being made for free travel pass holders and those who only ever use the Limerick-Ennis section. You would have to read the entire thread to find the original posts with the figures. and as i'm awake here is one such post:D http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81159563&postcount=2814

corktina

good link....the figures are not however then adjusted for free pass holders. These are included in the figures shown and probably make up a sizable proportion of them . Paying or not, they are still passengers and will be part of the 8 (or is it 12 ?) average.

eastwest

corktina wrote: »

good link....the figures are not however then adjusted for free pass holders. These are included in the figures shown and probably make up a sizable proportion of them . Paying or not, they are still passengers and will be part of the 8 (or is it 12 ?) average.

They're all paying passengers, except that a proportion of them have their fares paid by the dept of social protection. It's something that needs to be taken into account when costing the subsidy to this line; the €3million subvention isn't the only cost to the taxpayers for what Varadkar calls the 'political decision' to open this line.

westtip

IRColm if you want the definitive figures I have always found Irish Rail to be very accommodating in releasing them. They have them compiled as they report them every four weeks to the Ministers office - he takes a very keen interest in how much this line is costing Irish Rail. Just email Barry Kenny the PR Manager of Irish Rail - he will release the figures too you with a breakdown of journies on the Ennis-Athenry section - which is the true story for those doing the through intercity journey.

West on Track dispute the figures and always quote the usage numbers on the line from Athenry - Galway which is of course the main Dublin Galway line and is nothing to do with the so called Western Rail Corridor, and the figures for the commuter line Ennis - Limerick. The simple truth is - the original business case for this line was on highly inflated figures of something like 100,000 passengers for through intercity journies in the first year growing to stupid numbers by year five. None of this materialised, and despite the downturn in the economy and every other excuse under the sun, they never were going to happen. As Leo Varadkar put it recently on primetime, the WRC was built for political reasons and never stacked up on economic grounds or transport planning grounds.

If you want to read some of the earlier claims about the boom this railway line was going to bring to the economy go read some of the old press releases on the West on Track website, Hans Christian Anderson would have been proud of some of that stuff!!

If you want to read what the greenway has done for the economy of West Mayo - that is also easily researched with a little bit of googling. But there you go that is another issue.

Good luck with digging your figures out and further analysis, do share your research when its complete.

eastwest

37,336 passengers for 2014, with a subvention of €3 million, means a subsidy of just over €80 per passenger journey on this line. If a large proportion of the passengers on through journeys have their fares paid by the state as well, the subsidy situation is even worse.
I was surprised at Varadkar's comments that he intends to keep this line open, simply because it is there already. That's not a reason, it's a lame excuse; essentially there's almost nobody using it. Once the motorway link to Tuam is complete, it makes no sense at all to keep running trains on this line.

corktina

well , if he intends to keep it open, he should at least look at closing some of the smaller stations and installing an avoiding line at Athenry. Improving the journey time (a lot) is the only way to make this line of any use at all

westtip

corktina wrote: »

well , if he intends to keep it open, he should at least look at closing some of the smaller stations and installing an avoiding line at Athenry. Improving the journey time (a lot) is the only way to make this line of any use at all

You mean do what they should have done in the first place! Don't be silly corky that is far too logical!:D

end of the road

eastwest wrote: »

37,336 passengers for 2014, with a subvention of €3 million, means a subsidy of just over €80 per passenger journey on this line. If a large proportion of the passengers on through journeys have their fares paid by the state as well, the subsidy situation is even worse.
I was surprised at Varadkar's comments that he intends to keep this line open, simply because it is there already. That's not a reason, it's a lame excuse; essentially there's almost nobody using it. Once the motorway link to Tuam is complete, it makes no sense at all to keep running trains on this line.

in fairness after spending 106000000 on it i'd be afraid to shut it, yes theirs the ongoing costs but unless they can figure out a new use for the stations between ennis and athenry then what does one do? personally i think building the line in general was a good thing, the mistake was building all those little stations between ennis and athenry, linking up 2 branches offering a through service between limerick and galway was right to do, after all better to have 1 line that can utalize rolling stock rather then 2 dead end branches (or 1 if you just include ennis) . i don't have the answer as to what to do i'm afraid but its not going anywhere rightly or wrongly for the forseeable, i do think that closing lines (or a line) to pay for it was an insult (and nobody will convince me that rosslare waterford wasn't closed to pay for ennis athenry, maybe if it was closed after the last beat train the excuse of lack of freight i would buy but not 4/5 years later)

freyners

end of the road wrote: »

in fairness after spending 106000000 on it i'd be afraid to shut it, yes theirs the ongoing costs but unless they can figure out a new use for the stations between ennis and athenry then what does one do? personally i think building the line in general was a good thing, the mistake was building all those little stations between ennis and athenry, linking up 2 branches offering a through service between limerick and galway was right to do, after all better to have 1 line that can utalize rolling stock rather then 2 dead end branches (or 1 if you just include ennis) . i don't have the answer as to what to do i'm afraid but its not going anywhere rightly or wrongly for the forseeable, i do think that closing lines (or a line) to pay for it was an insult (and nobody will convince me that rosslare waterford wasn't closed to pay for ennis athenry, maybe if it was closed after the last beat train the excuse of lack of freight i would buy but not 4/5 years later)

Using the line fairly often I think if times were improved you might see a nice increase in passengers. From my time on it is fairly rare that anyone gets on in any of the stations between gort and athenry. If they do have commuter traffic (doubtful) then stop only the morning and evening line there.

corktina

freyners wrote: »

Using the line fairly often I think if times were improved you might see a nice increase in passengers. From my time on it is fairly rare that anyone gets on in any of the stations between gort and athenry. If they do have commuter traffic (doubtful) then stop only the morning and evening line there.

I would think if times were better the total traffic between Galway and Limerick and intermediate points would shift from being Leisure based towards Commercial based and those "new" travellers would be in a hurry to get to work or wherever and the rail line would be too slow to reap any benefits.

As has been said many times, yes a rail link between Galway and Limerick is a good idea, but this line is too slow and too indirect to compete. It's too late now, but a better alignment, perhaps built in tandem with the Motorway and serving Shannon but not some of the villages and running direct to Galway not via Athenry would have made sense even if it cost an awful lot more.

However it is good to get a regular users point of view.

From an Enthusiasts point of view (Yes I am one) I would love to see the northern section open with all it's twists and level crossings, it is a fascinating line...it will never happen though I think being realistic.

westtip

end of the road wrote: »

personally i think building the line in general was a good thing, the mistake was building all those little stations between ennis and athenry, linking up 2 branches offering a through service between limerick and galway was right to do, after all better to have 1 line that can utalize rolling stock rather then 2 dead end branches (or 1 if you just include ennis) .

Just pulling out part of your quote, and also what Corky said, the inherent problem with the Western Rail Corridor is the route and alignment itself. The concept of the WRC was always based on opening the old alignment - of course WOT knew the limitations of what they could achieve, so focussed on this objective afterall in terms of cost per KM it was a cheap deliverable, the road lobbyists never did this - and they always (in the main) achieved new roads rather than patching up the old ones. This is the reason why the WRC has failed, its a bad product by design that delivers a bad service. It is a fair point about utilizing rolling stock and crews, if a new railway line had been built on a new alignment, Shannon Airport, Ennis, (possibly Gort), and direct to Galway it may well have had a modicum of success. I feel a tad sorry for WOT they campaigned so hard for something which was bad by design from day one. The same issues apply to the rest of the rail network sitting on C19th alignments; if you listen to what Varadkar said on Primetime last week he said to compete with the motorways you need fast point to point services, eg on Dublin Galway - maybe one stop at Athlone and straight into Dublin, not stopping at every station on the way though would not be politically acceptable, just as non stop expresses from Cork to Dublin would be resisted. We are a small country with a small population and now a reasonably good inter-urban road system. Railways on an old railway network are going to find it harder and harder to compete for passenger services, in particular on Dublin- Cork, Dublin-Galway, Dublin-Limerick routes. With these routes struggling a campaign to re-open an old rail alignment that will deliver more of the same in terms of service levels is doomed, this really sums up why the WRC will never be re-opened north of Athenry and why the phase one project was always going to fail.

corktina

WoT would have wanted the original formation anyway as their objective has always been Sligo, not Galway and going via AThenry would suit them to this end.

westtip

corktina wrote: »

WoT would have wanted the original formation anyway as their objective has always been Sligo, not Galway and going via AThenry would suit them to this end.

Actually corky - Sligo was never the big target for WOT, it was all about making Claremorris the Clapham Junction of the west!

westtip

eastwest wrote: »

If this continues, fares on the WART (western area rapid transit) will be somewhere in the minuses -- they'll be giving free tickets and a few quid with them.

If SF are the main political protagonists for this route could it become the Fenian Area Rapid Transit...... so the WART becomes a ......work it out for yourselves folks and when there is the annual flooding down near Ennis it becomes a wet one?

serfboard

westtip wrote: »

The inherent problem with the Western Rail Corridor is the route and alignment itself ... if a new railway line had been built on a new alignment, Shannon Airport, Ennis, (possibly Gort), and direct to Galway it may well have had a modicum of success.

Agree.

westtip wrote: »

If you listen to what Varadkar said on Primetime last week he said to compete with the motorways you need fast point to point services, eg on Dublin Galway - maybe one stop at Athlone and straight into Dublin, not stopping at every station on the way though would not be politically acceptable, just as non stop expresses from Cork to Dublin would be resisted.

One of the interesting things that he said was when he put emphasis on improving Dublin->Belfast, Dublin->Cork, Commuter (which presumably means Dublin but possibly including Cork) and that's it. In effect he was saying there's no more money being put into Dublin-Sligo,Galway, or Waterford (the Limerick line sharing the Cork line mostly).

I also think that the idea that non-stop services are politically unacceptable is amusing. Why do people think that they have a right to interfere with how IE runs the system? Because it's in public ownership? Look at BE non-stop services. Why are they acceptable but IE ones aren't? :rolleyes:

So eventually we, the gombeen population of this island, are going to prevent non-stop services, and instead insist the trains serve every gatepost, leading to bus services easily kicking the trains services ass (as they are now), leading to a higher subvention per passenger, eventually leading to more closures.

No wonder Leo said if he had more money he'd put it into buses!

westtip

serfboard wrote: »

One of the interesting things that he said was when he put emphasis on improving Dublin->Belfast, Dublin->Cork, Commuter (which presumably means Dublin but possibly including Cork) and that's it. In effect he was saying there's no more money being put into Dublin-Sligo,Galway, or Waterford (the Limerick line sharing the Cork line mostly).!

He was effectively saying TEN-T European policy is the only show in town, as TEN-T stated the only irish rail corridor route that will get investment is the Cork-Dublin-Belfast corridor. As Europe is the only possible place we will get money to invest in any rail infrastructure we have to accept this is the only route that will get upgraded for fast express services, because any application for European Capital funds on rail will only qualifiy if they fulfil TEN-T criteria. These are the simple facts that anyone backing the West on Track campaign has to now accept - there is no money for the WRC project because it does not exist in the TEN-T policy approved and passed by the EU parliament and accepted by our government. The most annoying thing about Varadkar is he is still playing the fence sitting game - allowing some western politicians and indeed West on Track to espouse views in public that the WRC is still on the agenda for the 2016 national development plan along with other projects. It's not. Simply as and you can stick this post up in 2016 to say there you go westie was right all along!!!:D

end of the road

westtip wrote: »

He was effectively saying TEN-T European policy is the only show in town, as TEN-T stated the only irish rail corridor route that will get investment is the Cork-Dublin-Belfast corridor. As Europe is the only possible place we will get money to invest in any rail infrastructure we have to accept this is the only route that will get upgraded for fast express services, because any application for European Capital funds on rail will only qualifiy if they fulfil TEN-T criteria. These are the simple facts that anyone backing the West on Track campaign has to now accept - there is no money for the WRC project because it does not exist in the TEN-T policy approved and passed by the EU parliament and accepted by our government.

thats ridiculous, surely the majority of our rail network should be part of this plan? it could really come into its own if given a chance, does this mean that all apart from the dublin cork/belfast routes the rest will be effectively left to rot? and once expired it will be shut and ripped up?