Solidarity??!!!

iffy

I've spent a bit of time reading this forum, and I am actually sickened by the public v private bickering going on.

I must congratulate the government, hyped up media for turning what should be a time where ALL workers take a stand against a morally corrupt capitalist system, which only serves to keep the wealthy wealthy."Income tax will apply on a progressive basis to those with higher incomes". What does that mean, these people had and still have an enormous amount of wealth, if the average worker is expected to "take the pain" (this comment ***** me right off we did not cause this mess the banks, the backhanders, the government did) why the hell cant those with the money do it!!!

I am actually so frustrated with the people of Ireland, stand together, march together make your voice heard together. TOGETHER!!!

namloc1980

I agree in that the government has created and fanned the flames of this Public vs Private debate......they have basically got the people of Ireland to turn on each other while deflecting alot of anger away from themsleves and turning the public sector employees into the scapegoat.

omahaid

Ok, lets say the whole country marches, what do we do then?

peasant

Where was the solidarity when during the tiger years each and everybody went out to grab as much for themselves as they possibly could?

Solidarity went out the window with the 8 Euro breakfast roll.

Personally I can't think of more than about five people (outside my immediate friends or family) that I could possibly muster solidarity for ..I'm actually quite happy to see that the greed has come home to roost.

If I were younger and more optimistic, I'd express the hope that we as a society might possibly learn from this ...as I'm old and cynical I'll just have another drink (now that it's cheaper)

iffy

Stop this ransacking on the average worker. If a bunch of OAPs, wheelchairs, canes, in toe, can make them change their mind, why not the rest of us??!!

Change didnt come from sitting back and taking it, if women in the 1900s, the civil rights movement in the 50/60's took this approach where would we be??!!

This is a government and of take and no give!!
Put enough public pressure on the government, the budget will then not be passed, which inturn would call a vote of no confidence, which inturn will call for a general election and finally inturn call for a NEW GOVERNMENT.

This is what mass marching and protesting can achieve, but people are too busy fighting with the Jones'!

mickos

Reading the OP reminded me of talking with a French supplier of ours, today in work. He was saying he was amazed by the reaction of the Irish fans following Henrys handball in the match a couple of weeks ago, or moreso the lack of it. He said not a bit of trouble was caused in Paris following the match, but said, if the same had happened France in Dublin there would have been chaos. It just seems its not in our nature to take to the streets.
But in this instance I feel the majority of Irish people understand the futility of marching. We are in this mess now and have to get ourselves out of it. The public private divide has to stop though. Seriously the bickering here is getting us nowhere. I don't think the government have done this deliberately. Public expenditure had to be cut its that simple.
I'm fearful of what actions the unions will decide to take. Strikes will divide the country further and will achieve nothing, cuts have to be made. The country needs to be united on this but not against the government (just yet anyway). We've all taken cuts. The country is broken, it will take us all to fix it.

Dannyboy83

Solidarity - a union of interests or purposes or sympathies among members of a group

Apartheid - a policy involving economic discrimination against people in group y who are not in group x; (one definition - type "define: apartheid" into google)

You are asking people in group y who have no pensions and have been earning 20% less less than those in group x, to unite against the government who are returning equality and breaking down the economic apartheid; and in the process saving the country from sovereign default.


I can't see it happening.

ceret

iffy wrote: »

the civil rights movement in the 50/60's

What civil rights movement was this? AFAIK the civil rights movement didn't start till the late 60s/70s in N.I.

Put enough public pressure on the government, the budget will then not be passed, which inturn would call a vote of no confidence, which inturn will call for a general election and finally inturn call for a NEW GOVERNMENT.

The problem is that the people who would benefit from this (Fine Geal, and Labour) don't want to be in power yet. They want to wait till we've hit total rock bottom. That increases their power (since they get more seats). They also wanna wait till we're close to being on the way up (which will happen without the fools in Lenister House), then get get power and claim their policies are the things that did it.

Count Dooku

iffy wrote: »

I've spent a bit of time reading this forum, and I am actually sickened by the public v private bickering going on.

I must congratulate the government, hyped up media for turning what should be a time where ALL workers take a stand against a morally corrupt capitalist system, which only serves to keep the wealthy wealthy."Income tax will apply on a progressive basis to those with higher incomes". What does that mean, these people had and still have an enormous amount of wealth, if the average worker is expected to "take the pain" (this comment ***** me right off we did not cause this mess the banks, the backhanders, the government did) why the hell cant those with the money do it!!!

I am actually so frustrated with the people of Ireland, stand together, march together make your voice heard together. TOGETHER!!!

Why you didn't march before?
For example 12 of September?


or week after


Only when your paycut has been affected, you started to cry

PS unions decided to stay away from anti-NAMA protests



Now it is their turn to learn how to feel betrayed

partyatmygaff

iffy wrote: »

Stop this ransacking on the average worker. If a bunch of OAPs, wheelchairs, canes, in toe, can make them change their mind, why not the rest of us??!!

Change didnt come from sitting back and taking it, if women in the 1900s, the civil rights movement in the 50/60's took this approach where would we be??!!

This is a government and of take and no give!!
Put enough public pressure on the government, the budget will then not be passed, which inturn would call a vote of no confidence, which inturn will call for a general election and finally inturn call for a NEW GOVERNMENT.

This is what mass marching and protesting can achieve, but people are too busy fighting with the Jones'!

Em, I fail to see how a mass march or a protest can prevent cutbacks on spending. Some mass coup to overthrow the government would only destabilise the country because guess what? There is no better alternative at the moment. We are in a DEFICIT. No way to correct it but to cutback and increase income in some way. I can't believe the amount of begrudgery towards high earning people. They didn't just get it handed to them. The likes of judges and doctors had to work years and spend thousands of hours to get where they are. Its not their fault that their line of work is demanding and fetches a high wage, they deserve the money they get!

iffy

First question who is x and who is y?

Secondly 74% of the the pubic service earn less than 50,000 (x I'm guessing)

Thirdly the top 1% of earners in Ireland control 43% of the wealth (we'll make them w)

So in your theory x +y = 99% of the population

99% of the population is being controlled by w, I think we can find enough common ground!!!!

And "we" did not cause this mess. The banks and the capitalist greed hungry system did. If we let this go through this recession will happen again when rely on a graph going up and down for the economic stability of an entire nation!

iffy

Attention of Count Dooku:

I am not a public servant!
I did march!
I am also not a fan of unions they cut there loss with the worker when lay in bed in fine fail

So your argument is now what??........

Rob67

And thus, the reason why solidarity cannot be attained because there are too many axes to be ground.;)

peasant

iffy wrote: »

And "we" did not cause this mess!

We voted for the feckers, we didn't demand their heads when they were caught with the brown envelopes, we bought the overpriced houses, the designer shoyte, the flatscreens, the overpriced crap ...we took out the loans ...nobody forced us.
We got the the governement and "leadership" we deserved...bit late crying over spilled milk now.

sneem-man

Full Scale Rioting on the streets,would be the only answer to that shower of w.....s !:mad:

iffy

Well i did none of that only got the right to vote 4 years ago and didnt go near that shower of (use your imagination)

peasant i feel there is a bit of fight left in you

I agree with you, we were "new money", we never had it so good blah blah.
But this is the problem with this society and the current capitalist regime, it's only focus is profit profit profit, instead of the people the people the people!

Dannyboy83

iffy wrote: »

First question who is x and who is y?

Secondly 74% of the the pubic service earn less than 50,000 (x I'm guessing)

Thirdly the top 1% of earners in Ireland control 43% of the wealth (we'll make them w)

So in your theory x +y = 99% of the population

99% of the population is being controlled by w, I think we can find enough common ground!!!!

And "we" did not cause this mess. The banks and the capitalist greed hungry system did. If we let this go through this recession will happen again when rely on a graph going up and down for the economic stability of an entire nation!

Please avail of the following resource, when determining group x and group y.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055750520

Group w are a composed of both private and public sectors;


How do you suggest we determine group w?

partyatmygaff

sneem-man wrote: »

Full Scale Rioting on the streets,would be the only answer to that shower of w.....s !:mad:

And how exactly will a lot of people fighting and maybe even killing eachother on the streets achieve anything except make the world see us as a 3rd world country?

Count Dooku

iffy wrote: »

Attention of Count Dooku:

I am not a public servant!
I did march!
I am also not a fan of unions they cut there loss with the worker when lay in bed in fine fail

So your argument is now what??........

Too late to do anything now
September was the best time to remove FF even by rejecting Lisbon
It is time to teach greedy public servants, which want to live with capitalists incomes and socialist job security
Traitors must be punished, before they betray other next time

Clare_Guy

iffy wrote: »

I've spent a bit of time reading this forum, and I am actually sickened by the public v private bickering going on.

I must congratulate the government, hyped up media for turning what should be a time where ALL workers take a stand against a morally corrupt capitalist system, which only serves to keep the wealthy wealthy."Income tax will apply on a progressive basis to those with higher incomes". What does that mean, these people had and still have an enormous amount of wealth, if the average worker is expected to "take the pain" (this comment ***** me right off we did not cause this mess the banks, the backhanders, the government did) why the hell cant those with the money do it!!!

I am actually so frustrated with the people of Ireland, stand together, march together make your voice heard together. TOGETHER!!!

I was just about to start a thread on the same subject.

We're all been played to take the focus off the real issues.

It's a classic case of "divide and conquer". Fianna Fail and it's spin doctors are manipulating the population through the media, setting different groups against each other, diverting attention from what we all need to focus on;

The country is in a mess, some of it is because of the global economic downturn™, more of it because we had a property addiction that was fuelled by fianna fail/pds, banks and vested interests, but mainly because fianna fail have been in power too long and have grown fat and lazy.

For too long we've had shallow, short-sighted, nest-feathering leadership. Only interested in keeping their power. For too long we've allowed ourselves to be led by people who buy that power.

They've bought that power by selling us a vision of a low tax economy by lowering income tax rates, all the time cynically diverting the tax burden on to, so called, "stealth taxes".

They've bought that power by fuelling a property boom through tax breaks for the wealthy and cheap credit, with no regulatory control, for the poor people.

They've bought that power by promising us reform of both local and national government and setting up tribunals to help sort out corruption.

Everyone knows the lies and bullsh1t we've been fed over the "boom years" and the bottom line is; what have we got to show for all of the money that we apparently got from the "celtic tiger"?! Answer is, SWEET FECK ALL, that's what!

We all need to focus on who got us here, and how we're going to fix it...

Drumpot

iffy wrote: »

First question who is x and who is y?

Secondly 74% of the the pubic service earn less than 50,000 (x I'm guessing)

Thirdly the top 1% of earners in Ireland control 43% of the wealth (we'll make them w)

So in your theory x +y = 99% of the population

99% of the population is being controlled by w, I think we can find enough common ground!!!!

And "we" did not cause this mess. The banks and the capitalist greed hungry system did. If we let this go through this recession will happen again when rely on a graph going up and down for the economic stability of an entire nation!

People keep talking about the government pitching the private v public ????.

The government didnt have to anything. .

The public service unions did a fantastically solid job of dividing us all by making their members out to be the main victims in this crisis, while ignoring/dismissing (without qualifying) any evidence that shows that paycuts are not particularly "unfair" in the current economic climate of Ireland . .

You do know that 32k is the average industrial wage in the private sector ? So I would say we could assertain that perhaps 50% (conservative) of the public service make more then the average private sector wage ? I will stand corrected on that figure, but the very difference in pay averages, coupled with pension and job security make me believe theres not much more anybody can say to the public service.

In simple terms, the lower paid in public service are better off then the lower paid in the private sector. Why do you think we would march with them so they can remain better paid (at our expense), in better jobs ? ?

iffy

44 per cent of all public servants earn less than €30,000 (this information was supplied in a written answer to a Dáil question on November 3rd)

So in your estimates that is nearly one in 2 of every civil servant earns less than the average industrial wage.

As the industrial wage (which I did know was 32000 due to the fact that Joe Higgins MEP takes this wage instead of the MEP salary) is just an average what amount of people are earning a hell of alot more than this???!!!

Drumpot everyone has the right to job security.

The union heads are a joke, just take a look at their wage? i in no way agree with the union leaders!

What annoys me more is that some employers are using this recession to their advantage, cutting hours, outsourcing jobs, redundancies etc, whilst they are still gaining massive profits. (a well known cola brand for example)

Public service workers, private service workers, we are all workers, we have all finally woken up to the nightmare that is a capitalist system and its huge deficiencies.

So yes I do say lets stand together as workers the majority of us earning the average industrial wage, and say no we wont let this happen again.

If there is anything wrong with wanting a fairer society for everyone?

Drumpot

iffy wrote: »

44 per cent of all public servants earn less than €30,000 (this information was supplied in a written answer to a Dáil question on November 3rd)

So in your estimates that is nearly one in 2 of every civil servant earns less than the average industrial wage.

As the industrial wage (which I did know was 32000 due to the fact that Joe Higgins MEP takes this wage instead of the MEP salary) is just an average what amount of people are earning a hell of alot more than this???!!!

Drumpot everyone has the right to job security.

The union heads are a joke, just take a look at their wage? i in no way agree with the union leaders!

What annoys me more is that some employers are using this recession to their advantage, cutting hours, outsourcing jobs, redundancies etc, whilst they are still gaining massive profits. (a well known cola brand for example)

Public service workers, private service workers, we are all workers, we have all finally woken up to the nightmare that is a capitalist system and its huge deficiencies.

So yes I do say lets stand together as workers the majority of us earning the average industrial wage, and say no we wont let this happen again.

If there is anything wrong with wanting a fairer society for everyone?

I have stood corrected on my figures . .

I agree we need to make a stand . .

Im just worried that we make a stand without a plan . .

Ive said it on other threads . . We need to DEMAND more from all our politicians. Getting rid of FF is not the answer to our trouble . . Its replacing them with a credible alternative who know that we will not accept anything less then fairness, clarity and hard work . .

I am an admitted cynic and I fear that FG/Lab could get an easy ticket into power and wont need to do much to please the punters (as FF have dished out an anwful lot of pain that will be difficult to top!) .

iffy

Drumpot wrote: »

I have stood corrected on my figures . .

I agree we need to make a stand . .

Im just worried that we make a stand without a plan . .

Ive said it on other threads . . We need to DEMAND more from all our politicians. Getting rid of FF is not the answer to our trouble . . Its replacing them with a credible alternative who know that we will not accept anything less then fairness, clarity and hard work . .

I am an admitted cynic and I fear that FG/Lab could get an easy ticket into power and wont need to do much to please the punters (as FF have dished out an anwful lot of pain that will be difficult to top!) .

I think a Lab/FG government is a joke, and i am disguisted with myself that i ever took Labour seriously. For a party that is supposed to be of the left leaning kind to associate itself with an even further right party than FF is shocking!

What we need is a credible left party, one that shares the voice of workers not the bankers.

cson

iffy wrote: »

And "we" did not cause this mess. The banks and the capitalist greed hungry system did. If we let this go through this recession will happen again when rely on a graph going up and down for the economic stability of an entire nation!

As much as the reckless lending is to be abhorred, there are a lot of irresponsible members of the public out there that took on more debt than they could afford. Even disregard the mortgages and the level of credit card and personal debt out there is astounding. People with 5 figure debt on their credit cards. In my eyes, there as culpable as the bank who allowed them to get that far in the red.

iffy wrote: »

I think a Lab/FG government is a joke, and i am disguisted with myself that i ever took Labour seriously. For a party that is supposed to be of the left leaning kind to associate itself with an even further right party than FF is shocking!

What we need is a credible left party, one that shares the voice of workers not the bankers.

Socialism is bankrupt in this country.

iffy

cson wrote: »

As much as the reckless lending is to be abhorred, there are a lot of irresponsible members of the public out there that took on more debt than they could afford. Even disregard the mortgages and the level of credit card and personal debt out there is astounding. People with 5 figure debt on their credit cards. In my eyes, there as culpable as the bank who allowed them to get that far in the red.



Socialism is bankrupt in this country.

Cynasicm is still alive and well though


What alternative do you suggest then? You like the current government? You think a further right even more public service hating party FG? You think a labour government who doesnt have an identity any more left or right is the answer?

What is the alternative??

cson

I think this is a mess that'll be there regardless of who's in power. It'll have to be cleaned up more or less within the same parameters whether it's Fianna Fail, Fine Gael or Labour who do it. There is no miracle alternative available to the Irish electorate.

I assume you're referring to my point that socialism is bankrupt in Ireland as cynicism? I do take objection to that; it's realism. Please show me otherwise if you think it is not.

iffy

Read anything other than the mainstream media, which is controlled by the wealthy, who only have their interests at heart.
Noam Chomskey is a very interesting man with very interesting ideas.
Look at the alternative left parties, do some research, they actually have websites in this oh so modern era.

Realism i hate that word, that word just sounds defeatist.
We are not a defeated nation, nearly but not quite.

cson

iffy wrote: »

Read anything other than the mainstream media, which is controlled by the wealthy, who only have there interests at heart.
Noam Chomskey is a very interesting man with very interesting ideas.
Look at the alternative left parties, do some research, they actually have websites in this oh so modern era.:)

Realism i hate that word, that word just sounds defeatist.
We are not a defeated nation, nearly but not quite.

All the socialist ideals in the world won't make Irelands debt disappear. That's realism. That's the fact that there will be no short term cure for this recession.

iffy

cson wrote: »

All the socialist ideals in the world won't make Irelands debt disappear. That's realism. That's the fact that there will be no short term cure for this recession.

54 billion would put a huge dent in our debt.
On that billion dollar answer i am going to 'march' myself to bed

cson

54 Billion pretty much is our debt sadly.

Clare_Guy

cson wrote: »

54 Billion pretty much is our debt sadly.

27 billion of which is lying in cash in the NTMA...

http://www.ntma.ie/Publications/2009/QI_Press_Release.pdf

bottom of page 5...

anyone else feel it's a striking coincidence that the NAMA amount is exactly the same as the current national debt?! so it neatly doubles our national debt with a few strokes of a pen...

Peanut

iffy wrote: »

Drumpot everyone has the right to job security.

Ehhh you what now?
Everyone should have the right to be treated fairly, this doesn't necessarily mean security though, it just can't in the uncertain physical world.

iffy wrote: »

Public service workers, private service workers, we are all workers, we have all finally woken up to the nightmare that is a capitalist system and its huge deficiencies.

It was working ok, generally speaking. It still works pretty well in other places.

It doesn't matter what system you have, people are always the weakest link, I don't think there is any such thing as a perfect system.

Count Dooku

iffy wrote: »

44 per cent of all public servants earn less than €30,000 (this information was supplied in a written answer to a Dáil question on November 3rd)

Nice cheating from public services
Source
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/Xml/30/DAL20091103A.PDF
38669/09

up to
10,000 49,747
20,000 64,116
30,000 69,766
40,000 69,954
50,000 55,586
60,000 34,562
70,000 22,555
80,000 15,635
90,000 10,379
100,000 7,045
100,000+ 15,278

Total PS workers 414,623

How you will explain that number of public servants, according to this statistic has grown to 414,623

BTW, according ICTU, 66% of PS workers (210,000) earn more then 40K
According to Revenue 230,994 earn more then 40K

ICTU statement was issued in 2009, Revenue statistic belongs to 2007


So
question
How many public servants do we have?