The Black and tans in Ireland

junder

T runner wrote: »

As you can see from the below Controlled or State controlled schools have the Protestant Churches represented on the board of governers which is quite far from your claim of protestant churches relinquishing all control.
These are essentially protestant schools.


SOURCE






In the Republic 55% of schools are categorized as secondary with some religious influence. The state paying 93% of teachers cost uniformly in each school. This percentage is falling rapidly.

The remainder are fully supported state schools and the expectation is that these mixed religion schools will be in the majority shortly.

BTW Protestant population in Dublin now 9% (100,000) and rising.

you missed this quote

"The majority of Protestant children in Northern Ireland attend state controlled schools, whilst the majority of Catholic children attend Catholic maintained schools. These are essentially Protestant and Catholic schools"

And the reason the protestant population is now growing is due to immergartion, alot of africans for example would belong to the reformed faith.

but this has nothing to do with the thread, as already picked up on by somebody less prone to pontificating real or imagined the precepetion the free state was a catholic state for catholic people and protestants/unionists were/are not welcome and as i said preception is everything

junder

McArmalite wrote: »

Indeed here's a link to a unionist rally in Donegal. No fight out of the same 'Ulster Volunteers' when the brits said cheerio, we're leaving you. Not a shot or barely a whimper from them or their unionist brethern across the border.

On October 2. 1913, Sir Edward Carson held a great rally at Raphoe. 1500 Donegal volunteers paraded under the command of the fifth Earl of Leitrim.

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/reading-room/history-heritage/heritage-towns/the-heritage-towns-of-don/raphoe/the-laggan-and-the-ulster/index.xml
Well there you have it from a typical lovely unionist who claims to believe in democracy. So even if there is a nationalist majority in the occupied counties, the Lambeg drum etc will be brought out and screams of 'bloodbaths', ' a slaugther from Dublin to Cork ' , etc is what our lovely unionists friends might threaten to do

And then these are the very people who pontificate that democracy cannot be hijacked by the threats of a violent minority ?


Sure the Catholic Church had too much influence in the state, but lets not pretend it was a mirror reflection of the unionist regieme in the six counties.


The UVF, FFS what's their capability. Often half drunk, running into a pub or firing from a car in a nationalist area on totally defenceless and innocent people. If the IRA and Free State army had taken on you crowd minus the brits - they'd have finished in a handful of days. And anyway, it's very questionable if they had the guts to kick off without the brits.

I was refering to the 1912 UVF and the my point about any debate about the free state being able to defeat the UVF descending into a pissing contest was directed at you

CDfm

junder wrote: »

I was refering to the 1912 UVF and the my point about any debate about the free state being able to defeat the UVF descending into a pissing contest was directed at you

Fair comment; and the 1969 threatened invasion of direct military intervention in Northern Ireland was laughable.

WAs it 8000 UVF vs 2,500 in the Irish Army ???

How close we came to being British again:rolleyes:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/30/ireland-dublin-troubles-1969-invasion
'planned invasion of Northern Ireland'

Republic 'faced a Bay of Pigs' if Jack Lynch had sent in troops as Troubles erupted .

The BBC's Belfast HQ and the city's international airport were to be blown up as part of an Irish invasion in response to the eruption of the Troubles in Northern Ireland, a TV documentary reveals. But troops sent by the government in Dublin to take over Newry across the border would have been annihilated by the UK army responding to the invasion.
Although an incursion into Northern Ireland never happened in August 1969, the programme claims that forces inside Jack Lynch's government tried to push for a military intervention. He came under tremendous pressure to respond militarily, especially from hardline nationalists inside his Fianna Fáil party. Des O'Malley, Lynch's parliamentary secretary and later founder of the Progressive Democrats, said cabinet hard-liners such as Kevin Boland and Neil Blaney pushed for an armed invasion.
"Boland was the most vocal, and Blaney was not far behind him, I think…their attitude was that the Irish government should take a very belligerent stance," O'Malley said. "They wanted overt military activity."
Many unionists, including Northern Ireland's prime minister, James Chichester-Clark, also thought the Irish army would try to seize nationalist majority towns such as Newry and the west bank of Derry. On the programme John Taylor, then junior home affairs minister and later deputy Ulster Unionist leader, says: "James Chichester-Clark believed that the Irish army was going to invade Northern Ireland. I was very anxious, very worried, because I knew it depended on me advising the prime minister to what exactly was going on."
Taylor ordered the mobilisation of 8,000 part-time B Specials to repel a possible invasion. He claims Lynch's TV broadcast on 13 August, warning the Republic would "not stand by" while northern nationalists were injured in clashes with the Stormont police force, only inflamed the situation. Now Lord Kilclooney, Taylor calls Lynch's remark "one of the most irresponsible" in the past 40 years.

Fratton Fred

T runner wrote: »

There is a large English ethnic minority in Dublin. Do they account for many of the congregation?

out of an average congregation of about 65, there are only two that I am aware of, both of whom are married to Irish Catholics.

CDfm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

out of an average congregation of about 65, there are only two that I am aware of, both of whom are married to Irish Catholics.

But a lot of catholics have joined other christian churches too.Thats not for reasons of advancement.

Very surprised at English as an ethnic minority - I wouldnt class them as that in the same way as I wouldnt class the french as an ethnic minority. Maybe thats just me.They assimilate.

Fratton Fred

CDfm wrote: »

But a lot of catholics have joined other christian churches too.Thats not for reasons of advancement.

not now it isn't, but in Victorian Ireland it would have been

CDfm wrote: »

Very surprised at English as an ethnic minority - I wouldnt class them as that in the same way as I wouldnt class the french as an ethnic minority. Maybe thats just me.They assimilate.

aah sure, we're almost Irish except for our accents so.:D

CDfm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

aah sure, we're almost Irish except for our accents so.:D

Thats all right so:D

You might like this http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63624202&postcount=25

CDfm

I have been told of a female relative killed by the Black and Tans - is there any definative list of civilian casualties of the war of independence

Morlar

CDfm wrote: »

I have been told of a female relative killed by the Black and Tans - is there any definative list of civilian casualties of the war of independence

I don't know of any definitive online sources unfortunately. I know you said she was a civilian casualty but you might get lucky and find something here;

http://www.military.ie/dfhq/archives/bureau.htm


Bureau of Military History (1913-21)

The Bureau of Military History was established in January 1947 by Oscar Traynor TD, Minister for Defence and former Captain in the Irish Volunteers.

The objective of the Bureau was 'to assemble and co-ordinate material to form the basis for the compilation of the history of the movement for Independence from the formation of the Irish Volunteers on 25th November 1913, to the 11th July 1921.' (Report of the Director, 1957).

Over the following ten years 1773 witness statements, 334 sets of contemporary documents, 42 photographs, 12 voice recordings, 210 photographs of action sites Easter Week and a collection of press cuttings were assembled by the Bureau from a variety of people involved in activities of the time.

The establishment of the Bureau gave individuals involved a chance to record their own stories. Members of groups such as the Irish Volunteers and subsequently the IRA, Cumann na mBan, the IRB, Sinn Féin, the Irish Citizen Army, relatives of deceased individuals and people not associated with any organisation were sought out to give as broad a range as possible to the collection. At present there are four civilian archivists working at Military Archives under the direction of Comdt Victor Laing processing the collection.

The Bureau of Miltary History collection is now open to the public.

Unfortunately they are closing on march 1st until may

http://www.nationalarchives.ie/contactus/MilitaryArchivesClosureLetter.html

Vourney

My grandfather was threatened at gunpoint once or twice. But this information only came out a few times when my father was drunk and started to rage about black and tans, so the real facts were unclear. My grandfather worked as a guardsman for one of the railway companies, so he may have been suspect due to his job. I know he did everything he could to stay out of the conflict. There was a story that they tore apart my grandfathers house searching for something, in Cork. Not sure which house, probably Cork City. Prior to that they lived in Kinsale and Waterfall Junction.

CDfm

As I understand it from my grandfather the IRA in Cork used to move arms along the railway tracks and of course the quickest way of moving troops was by rail.

I am sure your grandfather was top on everyones list

Padraig Og

Heres an example of one of the worst killings (By the RIC Auxiliaries not the Tans) - the photographs mentioned of the bodies are in the archives in Galway

http://www.warofindependence.net/?page_id=260

Padraig Og

he regular British soldiers weren't always the nicest chaps either
http://www.warofindependence.net/?page_id=147

Vourney

That's interesting. I'm just starting to learn about the impact of the civil war in Cork, as I was raised in the US, and my family never talked about it. My father left cork in 1952. Even when it was talked about it, some of the talk was lies or half truths. But yes, I figured his position on the railway would make him suspect. Plus I am not sure about his father, my great-grandfather, whether or not he was neutral or not. He also worked on the railway. They were from Currah, near Crossbarry, which I have learned was in the middle of it -- the civil war. The story we were told was that he traded farming for railway work to have a good steady job.

Vourney

I saw the names of the third west cork brigade somewhere, and there was a Denis Kelly on the list, for the division or group related to Bandon, which is the same area as Currah/Crossbarry. I wonder if I would ever be able to find out if this was my great grandfather, or my grandfather's brother, Denis Kelly. I'm sure there were probably quite a number of Denis Kelly's in the area.
I don't mean any disrespect at all, but I don't have to see any statistics or proof of how bad it was, I full well remember the sound of my father's voice whenever he spoke of the black and tans, which said it all. And any talk of the auxies was beyond that.

Read this

One poster drew a comparison with the Black and Tans and current contractors in Iraq. There are some similarities - especially in the amount of latitude they were given. But the ruthlessness of the B&T's was also borne out of their experience on the Western Front. They had already seen mass murder up front, and nothing shocked them. Many must have been sociopaths by the time they reached Ireland. They indeed committed many atrocities, and hastened Britain's withdrawal. That other sociopath - Churchill - did of course have a hand in it too.

It is rumoured that the IRA might have murdered one or two people as well.

And everybody went to Church on Sunday.

CDfm

If you give a bunch of guys booze, guns and a police badge ........................

not bakunin

CDfm wrote: »

Fair comment; and the 1969 threatened invasion of direct military intervention in Northern Ireland was laughable.

WAs it 8000 UVF vs 2,500 in the Irish Army ???

How close we came to being British again:rolleyes:

I don't think that Lynch was approaching this situation from a military point of view, despite your or the Gaurdian article's claims. He saw the issue as a humanitarian crisis, and was suggesting sending Irish troops just over the border to help set up hospital camps and provide ambulance services etc.

This is the full quote from his speech on the 13th August '69 which caused all the commotion: "The Irish Government can no longer stand by and see innocent people injured, or perhaps even worse".
He was also advising British PM Harold Wilson on the situation at this time, hardly advisable if you're considering "going to war" with that nation.

Read this

CDfm wrote: »

McArmalite wrote: »

]


.

Protestants dont pontificate

That was funny.

Vourney

I was wondering if there was a "central repository" for all of the information from various sources about the civil war. It seems like there is a lot of information out there. Is there any one of the Irish Universities history departments that is known to be the expert in this area?

indioblack

How long were the Tans in Ireland and why were they withdrawn?

CDfm

Vourney wrote: »

I was wondering if there was a "central repository" for all of the information from various sources about the civil war. It seems like there is a lot of information out there. Is there any one of the Irish Universities history departments that is known to be the expert in this area?

there isnt really -what are you looking for ????

indioblack wrote: »

How long were the Tans in Ireland and why were they withdrawn?

They arrived in March 1920 and you have to look at it in context that the British also recruited for "auxiliaries" to assist the white Russians and David Bowie's Grandfather (? or great uncle) joined that force.

My understanding is that after independence they were redployed to Palestine.

MarchDub

indioblack wrote: »

How long were the Tans in Ireland and why were they withdrawn?

The Tans were disbanded at the time when the RIC was disbanded in 1922. During their two years in Ireland about 7,000 served.

They were a troubled bunch and afterwards some of them were imprisoned in Britain for crimes committed there. Two were hanged for murder in Britain and another wanted for murder there committed suicide prior to being apprehended.

CDfm

MarchDub wrote: »

The Tans were disbanded at the time when the RIC was disbanded in 1922. During their two years in Ireland about 7,000 served.

Here is a link that might interest you.

The Image of “Black and Tans” in late Mandate PalestineRichard Andrew Cahill The “Black and Tans” were an auxiliary force that the British had hobbled together after World War I, in order to squelch the Irish Rebellion of 1919-1920. They became infamous for their use of excessive force, brash tactics (including torture) and communal punishment. In a recent article, I examined how over 650 former “Black and Tans” were signed on to serve in Palestine in the early 1920s. Based on research in the records of the British National Archive as well as newspapers and other sources from the 1920s and 1930s, I traced the activities and several personalities of the former “Black and Tans” who served together from 1922 to 1926 as the British Palestine Gendarmerie, and then as individual members of the Palestine Police. Many rose to the highest rank and some were at the center of controversies. In that same article, I analyzed public discourse, including the media, concerning these former “Black and Tans.” The astonishing finding was that up through the late 1930s, public discourse in the U.S. and Britain did not bat an eye at the conduct of these infamous men



http://www.jerusalemquarterly.org/ViewArticle.aspx?id=330

Stinicker

I had two Great Grand Uncles shot dead by the Black and Tans while playing Gaelic Football, My Grandfather was a medic with the IRA in the War of Independence and they were shot in reprisal for his involvement.

On my Fathers side of the Family the black and tans used the adjoining Farm as a shooting target range but they never troubled my fathers family. A protestant gamekeeper was disarmed and shot dead with his own gun in the locality a few years before the war so I think they were watching the area tightly for insurrections. During the Civil War the IRA inflicted a heavy toll upon the freestaters in the area and my fathers side of the family were staunc FG to this day, my mothers being IRA were Fianna Fail up until 2007 and are now FG!

History is great!

Vourney

Whereabouts were your great grand uncles shot, if you don't mind me asking.

CDfm

Vourney you should look at this or search rhe CIE archives

Morlar wrote: »

I don't know of any definitive online sources unfortunately. I know you said she was a civilian casualty but you might get lucky and find something here;

http://www.military.ie/dfhq/archives/bureau.htm


Bureau of Military History (1913-21)

The Bureau of Military History was established in January 1947 by Oscar Traynor TD, Minister for Defence and former Captain in the Irish Volunteers.

The objective of the Bureau was 'to assemble and co-ordinate material to form the basis for the compilation of the history of the movement for Independence from the formation of the Irish Volunteers on 25th November 1913, to the 11th July 1921.' (Report of the Director, 1957).

Over the following ten years 1773 witness statements, 334 sets of contemporary documents, 42 photographs, 12 voice recordings, 210 photographs of action sites Easter Week and a collection of press cuttings were assembled by the Bureau from a variety of people involved in activities of the time.

The establishment of the Bureau gave individuals involved a chance to record their own stories. Members of groups such as the Irish Volunteers and subsequently the IRA, Cumann na mBan, the IRB, Sinn Féin, the Irish Citizen Army, relatives of deceased individuals and people not associated with any organisation were sought out to give as broad a range as possible to the collection. At present there are four civilian archivists working at Military Archives under the direction of Comdt Victor Laing processing the collection.

The Bureau of Miltary History collection is now open to the public.

Unfortunately they are closing on march 1st until may

http://www.nationalarchives.ie/contactus/MilitaryArchivesClosureLetter.html

dermothickey

Heard about an old woman in Cork one day when a bunch of English West Ham supporters arrived in her pub and started singing "FOREVER BLOWING BUBBLES" She told them to hush up and stop singing black n tan songs. Apparently it was a popular song of the time and the Tans used to sing it in jest to people who's tongues they cut off who wouldn't talk or else talked As Ghaeilge

cmickdaly

in cork prison during the war of independence rape was used habitually as a means of control by prisoners against prisoner and guards against prisoners. a work colleague told me about her grandfather who witnessed such activities

Del.Monte

Anecdotal tripe in an ancient thread. :rolleyes: