Time to arm the gardai

Corcioch

Phototoxin wrote: »

I concur with these points (not your headbutting the latter 2 points)

If the decision was made there would be the cost of implimenting it. No doubt the country would need a panel of 'experts' and 'consultants' to BS about nothing for 18 months before deciding that they needs guns, yes but then guns that might fire bullets. Once there then the type of round containing the bullet would be discussed... bottom line... its not going to happen for a while and after a lot of tax payer money urinated away.

However if it happened there is the issue then of cops v robbers. In all fairness they are getting more ruthless not more intelligent. I dont think irish people want shootouts.

Secondly I think (and I'm heavily biased) that there should be more evidence collection en mass with DNA for arrest-able offenses and for volume crimes like in the UK. That itself is a large and nonviolent threat although of course expensive also.

Finally my experience with armed police in the UK is that they are usually level headed and dont think they are rambo. Sensible lads.
In Ireland, the same although in the UK armed police tend to be more well equipped in terms of 'bulletproof' vest, stun grenades and backup weapons. More like a freaking swat team! However they have to have weapons locked away separately in their cars and need separate authorization to use them Perhaps a similar policy here?

sorry to nip in on the thread but I'm not a regular boards.ie like I was at one point so them's my yoyo cents!

Were not all that different to the UK Trojan units . . . .just a few years behind


In the Summer of 1991 when the First Trojan Units took to the streets of London in their ARV's they too had their Firearms Locked in safes in the boots of their ARV's. ( the firearms locked in the safes policy varies from Garda Division to Garda Division . . .in some divisions members are armed all the time . . . . .Im not going into that here though. )

The "RSU" as they have been called here in Ireland are extremely well equipped and well trained. Each RSU mobile carries alot more than a Semi Automatic Handguns and a Sub machine gun.s

These members carry a comprehensive range of other tactical options both lethal and less than lethal/ non lethal, distraction devices etc etc

Im not going to list the equipment here but believe me it is extremely comprehensive . . . . . and the guys and girls are well trained in its use. And like you cited with the Trojan Units . .SO19/ CO19 . .the members of the RSU are far from being Rambo types . . . . all level headed and very proffesional in my experience.


What we need is more of these units on the ground . . .one in each division at least. That would be far preferable imo than arming one and all Gardai. Many Gardai have NO interest in carrying a firearm and it would be hard to forece it on people as a retrospective condition of service.



. . . . . .

Neither would I support carrying firearms and handing out beatings just to gain the fear of the Eastern European Community as has been not so much recommended here but has been mentioned.


Whats needed there imo is recruitment of persons from such areas of society into An Gárda Síochána. Perhaps the tuition of Polish or Russian in Templemore instead of Gaeilge or some of the other nonesense we are forced to endure and suffer up there. ( Is Gaelgeoir mise ach fós tá ceist ann faoi an meid am a caitheann Abhar Gardaí at foghlaim Gaeilge nach mbeidh in usáid acu riabh )

We should aim to gain the respect of these newer members of society through interaction etc . . .not aim to gain their fear.

never had any more of a problem with these folks than i did with any Irish Goujers.

realismpol

I think we have a major problem in this country right now. Lets face facts. A lot of the problem is down to our drink culture. You all know what im talking about. Unless we get over this main issue things are just gonna get worse. We do have to arm the gardai because things are just getting more violent and the number of people prepared to kill when under the influence of either drink cocaine is rising rapidly.

The problem is and ill probably be the first to say it is that our politicians and public don't have the balls to stand up and admit what the real problem is. Our addiction to alcohol. It will destroy this country. We are raising a whole generation of degenerates and noone seems to care. Noone seems to bat an eyelid at the violence that is filling our town and city streets. We are selfish nation and have an attitude well as long as its not me who cares? Right...exactly.

In the meantime the gardai are bearing the brunt of the surge in violence and they need to be armed. We need to get tough with hardcore criminals, those prepared to commit assualts on gardai etc and most importantly tough with our own addictions.

Whats scary is in about 20 years we are going to see the serious health implications of our addicitions and the crippling effect it will have on our health as a nation and our health services.
Although this may seem like a seperate issue that has no place withing a discussion about arming the gardai the very reason thats causing the need for the gaurds to be armed is the rise in violence mostly down to people frankly off their heads drunk or on drugs.

TheNog

realismpol wrote: »

I think we have a major problem in this country right now. Lets face facts. A lot of the problem is down to our drink culture. You all know what im talking about. Unless we get over this main issue things are just gonna get worse. We do have to arm the gardai because things are just getting more violent and the number of people prepared to kill when under the influence of either drink cocaine is rising rapidly.

The problem is and ill probably be the first to say it is that our politicians and public don't have the balls to stand up and admit what the real problem is. Our addiction to alcohol. It will destroy this country. We are raising a whole generation of degenerates and noone seems to care. Noone seems to bat an eyelid at the violence that is filling our town and city streets. We are selfish nation and have an attitude well as long as its not me who cares? Right...exactly.

In the meantime the gardai are bearing the brunt of the surge in violence and they need to be armed. We need to get tough with hardcore criminals, those prepared to commit assualts on gardai etc and most importantly tough with our own addictions.

Whats scary is in about 20 years we are going to see the serious health implications of our addicitions and the crippling effect it will have on our health as a nation and our health services.
Although this may seem like a seperate issue that has no place withing a discussion about arming the gardai the very reason thats causing the need for the gaurds to be armed is the rise in violence mostly down to people frankly off their heads drunk or on drugs.

Im not sure if Im reading your post right but you seem to be talking about public order incidents which imo if I was armed I would not be introducing a firearm. The ASP and spray that I would be carrying would in my mind be enough to deal with public order situations.

If you are talking about the obvious increase in firearms crimes, well I think we should wait to see what effect the RSUs have. The RSU is in its infancy at the moment and hopefully it will have a positive effect. The economic recession could help too on drug consumption to some extent. As I said earlier in this thread I do think it may come to it where the entire force is armed within my service. I hope it doesnt come to that but it may.

Zambia

realismpol wrote: »

I think we have a major problem in this country right now. Lets face facts. A lot of the problem is down to our drink culture. You all know what im talking about. Unless we get over this main issue things are just gonna get worse. We do have to arm the gardai because things are just getting more violent and the number of people prepared to kill when under the influence of either drink cocaine is rising rapidly.

The problem is and ill probably be the first to say it is that our politicians and public don't have the balls to stand up and admit what the real problem is. Our addiction to alcohol. It will destroy this country. We are raising a whole generation of degenerates and noone seems to care. Noone seems to bat an eyelid at the violence that is filling our town and city streets. We are selfish nation and have an attitude well as long as its not me who cares? Right...exactly.

In the meantime the gardai are bearing the brunt of the surge in violence and they need to be armed. We need to get tough with hardcore criminals, those prepared to commit assualts on gardai etc and most importantly tough with our own addictions.

Whats scary is in about 20 years we are going to see the serious health implications of our addicitions and the crippling effect it will have on our health as a nation and our health services.
Although this may seem like a seperate issue that has no place withing a discussion about arming the gardai the very reason thats causing the need for the gaurds to be armed is the rise in violence mostly down to people frankly off their heads drunk or on drugs.

The way I read this is you think people in Ireland drink to much so you thing the Gardai should have the option of shooting them when they go off the rails?

Corcioch

realismpol wrote: »

I think we have a major problem in this country right now. Lets face facts. A lot of the problem is down to our drink culture. You all know what im talking about. Unless we get over this main issue things are just gonna get worse. We do have to arm the gardai because things are just getting more violent and the number of people prepared to kill when under the influence of either drink cocaine is rising rapidly.

The problem is and ill probably be the first to say it is that our politicians and public don't have the balls to stand up and admit what the real problem is. Our addiction to alcohol. It will destroy this country. We are raising a whole generation of degenerates and noone seems to care. Noone seems to bat an eyelid at the violence that is filling our town and city streets. We are selfish nation and have an attitude well as long as its not me who cares? Right...exactly.

In the meantime the gardai are bearing the brunt of the surge in violence and they need to be armed. We need to get tough with hardcore criminals, those prepared to commit assualts on gardai etc and most importantly tough with our own addictions.

Whats scary is in about 20 years we are going to see the serious health implications of our addicitions and the crippling effect it will have on our health as a nation and our health services.
Although this may seem like a separate issue that has no place withing a discussion about arming the gardai the very reason that's causing the need for the gaurds to be armed is the rise in violence mostly down to people frankly off their heads drunk or on drugs.

I dunno mate . . . . .I wholeheartedly agree with you on the issue of Irish Addiction, particularly in relation to Alcohol and of late Narcotics. And I completely agree that Health Initiatives put in place to combat these aspects or Ills Of Irish Society have been lacking to say the least . . . BUT,

Firearms are not the solution to straight forward alcohol/ drug fulled Public Disorder on our streets . . . .A firearm is the LAST thing you need in such a situation.

However,

There are often situations encountered that do require a different tactical option to soft policing . . . .be it a Public Order Unit to deal with a Violent Deranged Person ( granted which could be due to drink/ drugs ) or if such a violent person has knives or "hostages" then it would be the RSU/ ERU.

Granted situations do arise where Alcohol/ Drugs are the cause of incidents where weapons and even hostages" are involved and yes pepper spray and ASPs are at times not sufficent . . . . ( pepper spray used recently on a drunk violent suspect in a domestic situation who came at members with a large knife took nearly 5 minutes to have an effect!!!! . . . . Thats A Long Time!!! . . .too Long!!! . . . . Synthetic Incapacitant Spray is far from the be all and end all!! )

So Yes Firearms can be necessary where Alcohol/ Narcotics are a factor in Incidents where there are also Knives or other weapons and maybe "hostages" ( By that I mean family members being threatened by the Offender or such ) . . . . . .

BUT, imo,

1. These incidents are the minority not the majority or Alcohol/ Narcotics related Problems

2. Firearms have no place imo when dealing with weekend type Violent Public Disorder thats fueled by Alcohol/ Narcotics on our streets outside of Pubs/ Clubs. . . . fights, assaults etc

3. The RSU/ ERU . . . . or even Public Order Unit are the best option where Alcohol/ Narcotic fueled Incidents are more serious . .as they have a level of training/ equipment that the Ordainary Member doesn't.


So would you not think that maybe the solution intead of arming every member would be to . . .leave members deal with soft policing issues and ensure they are genuinely backed up by A) readily available diverse tactical options & Supervisors capable of making the descisions . . .when incidents go beyond the scope of ordinary members training/ equipment.

The whole topic is certainly one worthy of ongoing discussion imo . . .