Time to arm the gardai

TheNog

Zambia232 wrote: »

Expand please what facilities do you refer to ?

Id imagine he is referring to shooting facilities for training and practice. At the moment AGS has an indoor facility in the College. I think there is another one in the Depot or at least they were talking about installing one there. The only other place for training is in Gormanstown, Meath which is owned by the Army.

pah

coach23 wrote: »

RSU will be the ones pointing the MP7 at him, he'll get the difference fairly quickly!

At least they won't be pointing UZI's

Hooch

TheNog wrote: »

Id imagine he is referring to shooting facilities for training and practice. At the moment AGS has an indoor facility in the College. I think there is another one in the Depot or at least they were talking about installing one there. The only other place for training is in Gormanstown, Meath which is owned by the Army.

They have a few more like Kilworth and one in Tipperary that I know of. Also the FATS mobile training system.

Le King

You arm the Gardai it becomes easier for criminals to get arms. I wouldn't trust them with guns anyway. The power-hungry-kicking-down-doors brigade already get away with murder as it is. No need to make that literal.

I know a few people in the Gardai and I wouldn't trust them with a pocket knife, never mind a gun.

I mean I don't want us ending up like the States where every brown shirted clown gets to use a gun.

And do you seriously think the Government would pay for EVERY Garda member to be trained with a gun, don't forget were not talking about a few games of Call of Duty, then to give them a gun and then to employ some sort of a tagging system to keep a record of all the guns so they don't "get lost" in the system. I doubt it.

Bad idea to be honest.

Delancey

Osu wrote: »

You arm the Gardai it becomes easier for criminals to get arms. I wouldn't trust them with guns anyway. The power-hungry-kicking-down-doors brigade already get away with murder as it is. No need to make that literal.

I know a few people in the Gardai and I wouldn't trust them with a pocket knife, never mind a gun.

I mean I don't want us ending up like the States where every brown shirted clown gets to use a gun.

And do you seriously think the Government would pay for EVERY Garda member to be trained with a gun, don't forget were not talking about a few games of Call of Duty, then to give them a gun and then to employ some sort of a tagging system to keep a record of all the guns so they don't "get lost" in the system. I doubt it.

Bad idea to be honest.

While by no means agreeing with the above post the question of firearms training is a valid one given the current state of Driver Training . It would be unthinkable to have Gardai carrying guns '' on Chiefs Permission '':rolleyes:

Hooch

Osu wrote: »

You arm the Gardai it becomes easier for criminals to get arms. I wouldn't trust them with guns anyway. The power-hungry-kicking-down-doors brigade already get away with murder as it is. No need to make that literal.

I know a few people in the Gardai and I wouldn't trust them with a pocket knife, never mind a gun.

I mean I don't want us ending up like the States where every brown shirted clown gets to use a gun.

And do you seriously think the Government would pay for EVERY Garda member to be trained with a gun, don't forget were not talking about a few games of Call of Duty, then to give them a gun and then to employ some sort of a tagging system to keep a record of all the guns so they don't "get lost" in the system. I doubt it.

Bad idea to be honest.

Careful now.....trolling posters will be banned. Warning issued.

Terrontress

Osu wrote: »

You arm the Gardai it becomes easier for criminals to get arms. I wouldn't trust them with guns anyway. The power-hungry-kicking-down-doors brigade already get away with murder as it is. No need to make that literal.

I know a few people in the Gardai and I wouldn't trust them with a pocket knife, never mind a gun.

I mean I don't want us ending up like the States where every brown shirted clown gets to use a gun.

And do you seriously think the Government would pay for EVERY Garda member to be trained with a gun, don't forget were not talking about a few games of Call of Duty, then to give them a gun and then to employ some sort of a tagging system to keep a record of all the guns so they don't "get lost" in the system. I doubt it.

Bad idea to be honest.

Don't mince your words there!

He does have a point though in that any evaluation of a Garda from application to today has been as of an unarmed member. I am sure there are those who superior officers might doubt their abilities in an armed situation but are happy with their current performance without a gun. Would arming AGS require psychological profiling of all members?

For the person a few posts ago who said that you'd be surprised at the number of people who curl in to a ball when being hit with an asp; should you hit someone who is curled in to a ball and presumably unable to pose a threat due to being curled up? I wouldn't describe your ability to hit the body in such a circumstance as a skill.

Zambia

TheNog wrote: »

Id imagine he is referring to shooting facilities for training and practice. At the moment AGS has an indoor facility in the College. I think there is another one in the Depot or at least they were talking about installing one there. The only other place for training is in Gormanstown, Meath which is owned by the Army.

Thats plenty , having armed Gardai does not meant they bang of shots every week.

They get passed on the weapon they are going to be using/carrying. Then have to undergo requalifications at set times.

Its not like training the RSU or some sort of SWAT team. You are simply training officers in how to fire a weapon. When to fire and when not to does not need a range, and thats the important part.

Gardai are already given huge responsibilty in relation to public safety. Anyone currently in the force that would not be trusted with a firearm. IMO should not be in the force at all.

Terrontress

In your opinion, perhaps, but that does not form the basis of many policies I'd expect.

Surely there are many serving Gardaì who would be incapable of handling a firearm. They didn't sign up to be an armed officer and may even have doubts of their own abilities in that regard.

What would happen to these folk if the force becomes armed?

coach23

Terrontress wrote: »

Don't mince your words there!

He does have a point though in that any evaluation of a Garda from application to today has been as of an unarmed member. I am sure there are those who superior officers might doubt their abilities in an armed situation but are happy with their current performance without a gun. Would arming AGS require psychological profiling of all members?

For the person a few posts ago who said that you'd be surprised at the number of people who curl in to a ball when being hit with an asp; should you hit someone who is curled in to a ball and presumably unable to pose a threat due to being curled up? I wouldn't describe your ability to hit the body in such a circumstance as a skill.

If you had read my post correctly you would say that i never said that they curl up in a ball when we hit them or that they are in a ball when we decide to hit them that would be ridiculous and illegal, dont think of us as "brown shirted clowns" or mindless thugs I've 2 degrees as do alot of my colleagues. what i attempted to explain was that the asp is a potentially lethal weapon as is a gun the user is the dangerous thing here gun wont fire unless you pull the trigger asp wont hit unless you take it out and swing it If a failed to get this point across thats my fault and i'm sorry. If you had ever been hit with the asp or seen it in action you might try to lessen the impact too by making yourself smaller or tightening up that's the action I was trying to explain. You do seem to have a lot of resentment towards gardai and do not seem to rate them at all perhaps this is the wrong forum for you?

As for the chiefs permission comment and psychological testing! Having been in the army previously and now wearing a blue uniform i feel i can answer this one too. Driving on chiefs permission is simply not good enough and has to change But at this time the job will not work without it. As for carrying a firearm on chiefs NEVER GONNA HAPPEN. When i filled out the application for the army and indeed did the interview there was no great emphasis on psychological testing and everyone there is armed with a multitude of weapons far more powerful than the gardai would be armed with. And no disrespect to my brothers in green but for the bulk of the army the educational requirements to gain entry are inferior to that of the gardai.

Should the mass arming of gardai be required it would be done on a phased basis to accommodate the sheer numbers. but it would be done properly and under no circumstances would anyone be armed if they couldn't pass the course thats fairly obvious lads

the locust

Purely out of curiosity i would be interested to see one division in Dublin armed; perhaps as a pilot scheme. I'd love to see the review after a 9months - a year and see how it impacted the community through a survey of how people felt etc... also see how the crime stats would be affected.

bravestar

the locust wrote: »

Purely out of curiosity i would be interested to see one division in Dublin armed; perhaps as a pilot scheme. I'd love to see the review after a 9months - a year and see how it impacted the community through a survey of how people felt etc... also see how the crime stats would be affected.

I would be more interested in if members felt safer while going about their duties and how having a firearm impacted stats in relation to serious assaults on members.

Zambia

Terrontress wrote: »

In your opinion, perhaps, but that does not form the basis of many policies I'd expect.

Surely there are many serving Gardaì who would be incapable of handling a firearm. They didn't sign up to be an armed officer and may even have doubts of their own abilities in that regard.

What would happen to these folk if the force becomes armed?

We give the gardai a huge amount of Power already. If someone is to irresponsible to handle that a firearm is a much lesser evil.

Terrontress

Zambia232 wrote: »

We give the gardai a huge amount of Power already. If someone is to irresponsible to handle that a firearm is a much lesser evil.

All I am saying is that guns should not be issued just to be waved around and fired off in the air. If you accept a firearm it is with the knowledge that you'll be killing someone if you use it.

There are probably some people able to deal with that and, given that AGS is representative of society as a whole, there will be those who have difficulties with that.

Both those who would not have what it takes to kill someone and those who would be all to happy to do so should be weeded out in advance.

So there is the issue with arming AGS retrospectively.

Terrontress

coach23 wrote: »

If you had read my post correctly you would say that i never said that they curl up in a ball when we hit them or that they are in a ball when we decide to hit them that would be ridiculous and illegal, dont think of us as "brown shirted clowns" or mindless thugs I've 2 degrees as do alot of my colleagues. what i attempted to explain was that the asp is a potentially lethal weapon as is a gun the user is the dangerous thing here gun wont fire unless you pull the trigger asp wont hit unless you take it out and swing it If a failed to get this point across thats my fault and i'm sorry. If you had ever been hit with the asp or seen it in action you might try to lessen the impact too by making yourself smaller or tightening up that's the action I was trying to explain. You do seem to have a lot of resentment towards gardai and do not seem to rate them at all perhaps this is the wrong forum for you?

As for the chiefs permission comment and psychological testing! Having been in the army previously and now wearing a blue uniform i feel i can answer this one too. Driving on chiefs permission is simply not good enough and has to change But at this time the job will not work without it. As for carrying a firearm on chiefs NEVER GONNA HAPPEN. When i filled out the application for the army and indeed did the interview there was no great emphasis on psychological testing and everyone there is armed with a multitude of weapons far more powerful than the gardai would be armed with. And no disrespect to my brothers in green but for the bulk of the army the educational requirements to gain entry are inferior to that of the gardai.

Should the mass arming of gardai be required it would be done on a phased basis to accommodate the sheer numbers. but it would be done properly and under no circumstances would anyone be armed if they couldn't pass the course thats fairly obvious lads

Apologies, my mistake. You didn't use the word ball. You just spoke about using force on someone who has curled up. Not using force on someone who has curled up "into a ball" as I suggested.

timmywex

foinse wrote: »

Have any mules on here ever noticed that there is not much respect flowing from the eastern europeans towards the Gardai, having spoken to one while releasing him from custody, i asked him why all the attitude, he told me that in Poland they fear the police, because they'll be rough and have guns, whereas here we're too soft and the most we have is a baton.

To be honest i think theres not much respect from some irish either.

Lets look at the last week of news headlines

One garda killed, one seriously injured after a wanted man crashed into their patrol car Garda stabbed in face and requiring plastic surgery after intervening in a shop robbery Garda sergeant injured by shards of glass after bullets fired into a hallway with 3 gards in it.

And thats only the headline stuff

coach23

Terrontress wrote: »

Apologies, my mistake. You didn't use the word ball. You just spoke about using force on someone who has curled up. Not using force on someone who has curled up "into a ball" as I suggested.

out of everything i wrote thats all you read

Irish_polizei

From an article on the RTE website: http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1214/justice.html

A snippit from the above article :

The Commission is also recommending that gardaí and prison officers be allowed use lethal force when doing their job, such as when making arrests, dealing with serious public disorders or preventing prison escapes.

source

timmywex wrote: »

To be honest i think theres not much respect from some irish either.

Lets look at the last week of news headlines

One garda killed, one seriously injured after a wanted man crashed into their patrol car Garda stabbed in face and requiring plastic surgery after intervening in a shop robbery Garda sergeant injured by shards of glass after bullets fired into a hallway with 3 gards in it.

And thats only the headline stuff

I'm well aware of it Timmywex, i have been on the receiving end of headbuts, punches, kicks and other general assaults. The point i'm making is that the eastern europeans, have come from countries where they fear the police due to 2 things, 1 they're armed and 2 they tend not to deal with things in the pc manner we do.

I do agree that Irish people have lost respect for AGS too but it's more to do with not having fear of reprisals, sentences handed down from the courts are sneered at by local criminals. so they know nothing much will happen if they do something illegal.

pah

Irish_polizei wrote: »

From an article on the RTE website: http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1214/justice.html

A snippit from the above article :

The Commission is also recommending that gardaí and prison officers be allowed use lethal force when doing their job, such as when making arrests, dealing with serious public disorders or preventing prison escapes.

Rubbish.

I would imagine this is a case of poor grammar.

Gardaí allowed to use lethal force when making arrests, public disorder,prison escapes????

Gardaí can already implement lethal force but it is in relation to legality, proportionality and neccessity, this won't change no matter what kind of laws are passed.

Zambia

Terrontress wrote: »

All I am saying is that guns should not be issued just to be waved around and fired off in the air. If you accept a firearm it is with the knowledge that you'll be killing someone if you use it.

There are probably some people able to deal with that and, given that AGS is representative of society as a whole, there will be those who have difficulties with that.

Both those who would not have what it takes to kill someone and those who would be all to happy to do so should be weeded out in advance.

So there is the issue with arming AGS retrospectively.

Guns are never issued to be waved off and fired in the air.

There is no issue that would stop the arming of AGS as you describe, as it would be AGS union calling to be armed. The tail does not wag the dog.

If a member had an issue with carrying that is for AGS to sort with that member. The whole force would not stay unarmed because a few members did not sign up for it.

Each officer would have to be trained in the weapon any concerns would be flagged during their course , if carrying will be a problem for the officer the trainer should spot it.

Phototoxin

I'm well aware of it Timmywex, i have been on the receiving end of headbuts, punches, kicks and other general assaults. The point i'm making is that the eastern europeans, have come from countries where they fear the police due to 2 things, 1 they're armed and 2 they tend not to deal with things in the pc manner we do

I concur with these points (not your headbutting the latter 2 points)

If the decision was made there would be the cost of implimenting it. No doubt the country would need a panel of 'experts' and 'consultants' to BS about nothing for 18 months before deciding that they needs guns, yes but then guns that might fire bullets. Once there then the type of round containing the bullet would be discussed... bottom line... its not going to happen for a while and after a lot of tax payer money urinated away.

However if it happened there is the issue then of cops v robbers. In all fairness they are getting more ruthless not more intelligent. I dont think irish people want shootouts.

Secondly I think (and I'm heavily biased) that there should be more evidence collection en mass with DNA for arrest-able offenses and for volume crimes like in the UK. That itself is a large and nonviolent threat although of course expensive also.

Finally my experience with armed police in the UK is that they are usually level headed and dont think they are rambo. Sensible lads.
In Ireland, the same although in the UK armed police tend to be more well equipped in terms of 'bulletproof' vest, stun grenades and backup weapons. More like a freaking swat team! However they have to have weapons locked away separately in their cars and need separate authorization to use them Perhaps a similar policy here?

sorry to nip in on the thread but I'm not a regular boards.ie like I was at one point so them's my yoyo cents!

Terrontress

coach23 wrote: »

out of everything i wrote thats all you read

If you feel that what you wrote misrepresents you, why not try to clarify it here?

Terrontress

Zambia232 wrote: »

Guns are never issued to be waved off and fired in the air.

There is no issue that would stop the arming of AGS as you describe, as it would be AGS union calling to be armed. The tail does not wag the dog.

If a member had an issue with carrying that is for AGS to sort with that member. The whole force would not stay unarmed because a few members did not sign up for it.

Each officer would have to be trained in the weapon any concerns would be flagged during their course , if carrying will be a problem for the officer the trainer should spot it.

Yes, you have agreed with everything that I have said.

merc998

Im with arming the gardai for sure nearly every other countrys police service are armed we need to wake up and get tough with these criminals!!!!

Zambia

Terrontress wrote: »

Yes, you have agreed with everything that I have said.

I don't read it that way, however its not important.

Terrontress

Zambia232 wrote: »

I don't read it that way, however its not important.

Well, I said there will need to be evaluation of each armed member prior to their arming. You said the instructors will pick them up.

I said, and I hope people picked up on the sarcasm, that guns are not issued to be waved around or be shot around in the air. You said no firearm is issued to be fired off in the air.

100% agreement.

pah

M4 Carbines all round I reckon

tracekins

bravestar wrote: »

As a serving member I find your comment both offensive and sickening.

Have to agree with you here, I am also a serving member and there is no need for such disgusting comments like that to be made

goldie fish

CiaranC wrote: »

Got an actual source for this?

About 20000 Templemore Policing dissertations on the subject:D