Fingerprint scan for you to claim benefits, would you object?

aligator_am

Hi Guys,

As the title indicates, would you object to needing to pass a fingerprint scan in order to collect the dole etc? I personally wouldn't, if you've nothing to hide then you've nothing to worry about

It would probably cost the goverenment about €30m to install these devices into all post offices (that figure is just a guess) but would save a vast amount of cash on the system cheats that are floating about. Also, if this system was linked in to the Garda database, it should also immediately flag any discrepacies, again, no issue if you've nothing to hide.

Personally, if I had my way then this would be just phase one, next level would be retinal scanners.

The initial cost may be substantial but the money it would save in the long run, I personally believe, would be far greater.

So what do you think? would you have an issue with it? do the PC brigade think it's an invasion of people's privacy? TBH I think there are far too many scammers out there, both homegrown and imported to leave this issue alone, the country is floundering, why not implement this system and recoup some of the lost cash?

chin_grin

Oh the chaos that would ensue.

"Wha deh fu*k? Yer nawh tayken a bih o me souuuuuuuuuuuuuuul!"

Also finding the time to "enroll" (that is capture the fingerprints...well they're not actually fingerprints, it converts points on your finger to a HEX number. But where was I?). Yes getting the time to enroll the populace would be absolute pandemonium!

Also I wonder where the central database for this would be? Mmmmm SQL, om nom nom nom nom nom.

.....It does worry how close we are to 1984. Be it ever so far behind us........Ah. What's this I'm doing!? future-maudlin?

aligator_am

chin_grin wrote: »

Oh the chaos that would ensue.

"Wha deh fu*k? Yer nawh tayken a bih o me souuuuuuuuuuuuuuul!"

Aye, but they'd soon shut their yappers once they realised that they aren't getting any cash until they submit to the scan.

Also, why not simply set a predetermined date for the launch of the system? That way it would give people time to attend site and have their scan taken.

IMO we've gone past the point of worrying about what the PC brigade will say, if they have an issue with it then let them pay the balance of cash to the people who refuse to subject to the scan..... yeah, like that's gonna happen lol.

monkeypants

aligator_am wrote: »

if you've nothing to hide then you've nothing to worry about

Absolutely. What's your name, where do you live and how much do you earn?

aligator_am

monkeypants wrote: »

Absolutely. What's your name, where do you live and how much do you earn?

I can PM you if you like?

CantGetNoSleep

Run to da Hills will be in doing his usual b1tching in a while

blubloblu

aligator_am wrote: »

I can PM you if you like?

Why hide it?

Tigger

@ cant get no sleep

your comment is ironic

monkeypants

aligator_am wrote: »

I can PM you if you like?

No thanks, post it publically. What have you got to hide?

Joey the lips

yes I would and do object to finger print and eye scanning. I do not agree with the attitude that "Well if you have nothing to hide....." Just click on my link it all started with.

A far simpler way would be to insist everyone is paid into a bank account or where not possible must collect with photographic ID.

aligator_am

monkeypants wrote: »

No thanks, post it publically. What have you got to hide?

Alan Matthews
Lucan
€24k per annum


Now that's out of the way, how about some real replies?

monkeypants

Joey the lips wrote: »

A far simpler way would be to insist everyone is paid into a bank account or where not possible must collect with photographic ID.

I was last on the dole in 2002 and I used to get paid into my AIB account. Nowadays I have to go in to my local post office and use a card that I was sent back in 1994 and has sat in the bottom of a drawer, unused, until very recently.

aligator_am

Joey the lips wrote: »

A far simpler way would be to insist everyone is paid into a bank account or where not possible must collect with photographic ID.

AFAIK that was the previous arrangement, which was removed as too many people were being paid the dole into their bank accounts while "travelling", also I believe that you need to currently present photo ID at the post office to collect the dole (not certain), clearly this system doesn't work.

gcgirl

photo id should be the norm pps cards with photos please! Fraud is widespread the amount of b/f's living with their lone parent g/f's its gives those Genuine claimants a bad name!

monkeypants

Here's another response. The points in below are in no particular order, just as they occur to me. I'll probably add more later.

Cost to setup and run. You admitted that €30m was a guess, but we all know that it'll cost way more that that to even get this started. We'll be looking at billions.

Justification. If X amount of money is being cheated from the system, what percentage of that is due to ID failings?

Track record. How did we get on with voting machines, integrated public transport ticketing and PPARS?

Overheal

fingerprint scans can be faked easilly enough. youd definitely expect to see a fair amount of fraud going on.

Guy:Incognito

Cant see a problem. If you dont want to avail of a service thats your choice , if you do you play by the rules of the people supplyign the service.

monkeypants

Overheal wrote: »

fingerprint scans can be faked easilly enough. youd definitely expect to see a fair amount of fraud going on.

I'd rather than dodgy gits looking for easy money had no reason at all to be cutting off my fingers.

monkeypants

Stekelly wrote: »

Cant see a problem. If you dont want to avail of a service thats your choice , if you do you play by the rules of the people supplyign the service.

Sounds like a good idea. Can I also opt-out of paying for the service too? Seems fair.

Guy:Incognito

monkeypants wrote: »

Sounds like a good idea. Can I also opt-out of paying for the service too? Seems fair.

Nope. You live and work here, you in. You opt out by leaving.

dvpower

Depends.

If there was legislation outlining exactly what the information could be used for, and if it was destroyed soon after it was no longer useful for that purpose and there were controls on who could access the information, then OK.

By the way, what frauds would this type of system prevent? It could certainly verify that the person collecting a payment was the person that made the claim. Have the DSFA said that this type of fraud is a particular problem?

Stercus Accidit

Wouldn't photo ID suffice?

Ziggurat

Yes. I don't like the idea of fingerprint scanning. Least of all by a government.

And yes, I've got plenty to hide. Just like everyone else.

aligator_am

monkeypants wrote: »

Here's another response. The points in below are in no particular order, just as they occur to me. I'll probably add more later.

Cost to setup and run. You admitted that €30m was a guess, but we all know that it'll cost way more that that to even get this started. We'll be looking at billions.

Justification. If X amount of money is being cheated from the system, what percentage of that is due to ID failings?

Track record. How did we get on with voting machines, integrated public transport ticketing and PPARS?

To buy the equipment now would be relatively cheap, even on a scale as large as this, employ a company to maintain the kit, most companies are crying out for work right now and will offer competative rates, also most companies would like to have something like this on their portfolio.

Regarding failings, why not scan each individual finger of the person? that way if one fails then yeah, it's a glitch, if all fail then it's a scammer.

Yes, I admit, those are good examples of epic fails on the govt's behalf, but by Jaysus, they can't afford another catastrophie like that and I reckon they would actually try to do this one right, but that's just my opinion. They should outsource this to someone like Dell or IBM or something, and the key part is to make everything completely transparent / open to the public so they can see that it's not tax payer's money going down the pan.

Capt'n Midnight

maybe you could use existing photo ID when collecting benefits

or a system like in the airport security where you get photographed while at the counter

you may not even need to pre register finger prints - you don't want to ID everyone, you just want to verify that the payments are being made to the same thumbprint each week


of course if you don't want the state to keep tabs on you , you can simply not take the money


Maybe we could have people signing on every week instead of once per month ?

Run_to_da_hills

CantGetNoSleep wrote: »

Run to da Hills will be in doing his usual b1tching in a while

TBH, I don't think we have anything to worry about for a while, If the Government couldn't get their act together on electronic voting I doubt if they could organize this.

People on the dole should be more concerned about it being scrapped and those kicked out on the streets like most Eastern European countries. :eek:

If there ever is going to be some type of positive ID required for Social Welfare etc it will be in the form of a "smart card" and it will come from Europe.

monkeypants

Stekelly wrote: »

Nope. You live and work here, you in. You opt out by leaving.

To be fair, if it came down to it, I probably would leave. I've lived elsewhere and paid taxes elsewhere and you don't get much back for it in this country. If they brought in such a sledgehammer-for-a-walnut scheme in this country, it really would be a sign that they'd lost the plot completely.

monkeypants

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Maybe we could have people signing on every week instead of once per month ?

Now there's a suggestion. I originally made my application back in September and my first date for signing on it in the middle of January.

aligator_am

monkeypants wrote: »

Here's another response. The points in below are in no particular order, just as they occur to me. I'll probably add more later.

Cost to setup and run. You admitted that €30m was a guess, but we all know that it'll cost way more that that to even get this started. We'll be looking at billions.

Justification. If X amount of money is being cheated from the system, what percentage of that is due to ID failings?

Track record. How did we get on with voting machines, integrated public transport ticketing and PPARS?

monkeypants wrote: »

To be fair, if it came down to it, I probably would leave. I've lived elsewhere and paid taxes elsewhere and you don't get much back for it in this country. If they brought in such a sledgehammer-for-a-walnut scheme in this country, it really would be a sign that they'd lost the plot completely.

Well it's as simple as this, Ireland is seen as a soft target by international scammers, it's also seen as a soft target by plenty of Irish naer do wells, if the govt are so determined to show the world that they can take a tough line and implement several severe budgets then sure this kind of system would help their case?

And I must say, I mean no offense to anyone who has lost their job in the recession, it's aimed squarely at the lifelong scroungers and their ilk, I mean no hurt to any genuine people out there who are suffering from this fun time that we live in

monkeypants

aligator_am wrote: »

And I must say, I mean no offense to anyone who has lost their job in the recession, it's aimed squarely at the lifelong scroungers and their ilk, I mean no hurt to any genuine people out there who are suffering from this fun time that we live in

That's a different issue and one that I would personally support. When I applied, I had to have a certain amount of contributions over the previous two years, which I had. I don't understand how you can claim if you have never paid any money in. Surely that would be a better place to start?

Biggins

No objection

Joey the lips

aligator_am wrote: »

AFAIK that was the previous arrangement, which was removed as too many people were being paid the dole into their bank accounts while "travelling", also I believe that you need to currently present photo ID at the post office to collect the dole (not certain), clearly this system doesn't work.

Another reason why a digital passport would be far better. You are asking we give up our civil liberties because the govt cannot introduce a system where by they know when someone leaves the country.

Its funny because I can got to australia in the morning. They know i am there and they know how long I am staying and they know when I am due to leave.... But the govt in ireland who gave me the passport dont!

ejmaztec

Best thing is a chip in the head for everybody. That way, anyone claiming lone-parent allowance would explode if their chip came too close to the one that they're supposed to be apart from.

smk89

chin_grin wrote: »

.....It does worry how close we are to 1984. Be it ever so far behind us........Ah. What's this I'm doing!? future-maudlin?

Theres a slight difference between having your finger print taken to prevent fraud and the government declaring you an unperson if you disagree

crossmolinalad

smk89 wrote: »

Theres a slight difference between having your finger print taken to prevent fraud and the government declaring you an unperson if you disagree

The dutch are doing that since sept 2009
all who need a new passport must give 4 fingerprints
2 are going into the passport and 2 are going into a central data base
in the future (they think2 /3 years)if everyone have a new one they going to use itfor everything like tax. sw mortage bank accounts ect
u must have your passport or eu id card with u on the streets
if a officer or someone else ask for it u have to show it
not with u they can arrest u untill someone of your family brings it in

fingerprints or a pasphoto on your sw card is a real good idea
last week i was on the post office in ballina there were two wimen who had 5 sw cards with them . from the counter no questions they paid them all out

CantGetNoSleep

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

TBH, I don't think we have anything to worry about for a while, If the Government couldn't get their act together on electronic voting I doubt if they could organize this.

People on the dole should be more concerned about it being scrapped and those kicked out on the streets like most Eastern European countries. :eek:

If there ever is going to be some type of positive ID required for Social Welfare etc it will be in the form of a "smart card" and it will come from Europe.

I think it should be scrapped - and it is not only Eastern European countries that have no dole, the US and Central European countries don't either

Run_to_da_hills

CantGetNoSleep wrote: »

I think it should be scrapped - and it is not only Eastern European countries that have no dole, the US and Central European countries don't either

In the States many of the union shops pay your unemployment benefits, but only for a certain length of time and then you are on your ass.

amen

I think it should be scrapped - and it is not only Eastern European countries that have no dole, the US and Central European countries don't either

so what do you do if you can't find a job ? starve ? starting robbing people for food/money? seel drugs for money?

there are 450,000 unemployed people in Ireland. At least 200,000 of there were working 18 months ago. What are all these people to do?

Run_to_da_hills

amen wrote: »

so what do you do if you can't find a job ?

Sit under an ATM machine with a paper cup.

Mrmoe

I think it is a good idea. It will hopefully prevent people from claiming the dole and not being present in the country, thats if they also install them at airports and ports. The whole system could be automated meaning that you would no longer have to join a queue to sign on every month or so but would simply have to go up to a terminal and get your finger print scanned. If it matches then you get paid your benefits/allowances.

Run_to_da_hills

Mrmoe wrote: »

I think it is a good idea. It will hopefully prevent people from claiming the dole and not being present in the country, thats if they also install them at airports and ports. The whole system could be automated meaning that you would no longer have to join a queue to sign on every month or so but would simply have to go up to a terminal and get your finger print scanned. If it matches then you get paid your benefits/allowances.

I think it will also be an excellent idea, the authorities could take swabs from the thumb print reader and tell if the person was working, ie traces of cement or motor oil etc.

amen

still wouldn't stop someone from working and claiming social welfare.

may stop people claiming in multiple offices (maybe)

bnt

If the government's going to give out money, I'm not surprised they want to try and stop people from abusing the system.

Here's a thought: not everyone has a home, birth certificates, or phone bills, but everyone has a fingerprint. Could this open up benefits to those who currently "fall through the cracks"?

Joey the lips

I am very surprised at some of the people who have agreed with this idea. Here are some of the reasons I am against it.

Arguments against
Further information: freedom of movement and propiska

This section may contain original research or unverified claims. Please improve the article by adding references. See the talk page for details. (July 2009)

• Commercial organisations such as banks typically do not try to authenticate the identity of a person, but rather the validity of a transactions (e.g. by signature or PIN) due to the acknowledged difficulty in reliably identifying an individual in a fraud proof and convenient manner. In otherwords. If the cards and signature match. The onus is on you to prove you did not take out the money. Sound familular to anyone!
• It has been argued that identity cards impose a disproportionate burden upon both government and citizens while empowering the executive, which is contrary to the maxim: "the government that governs best, governs least". Some have pointed out that extensive lobbying for identity cards has been undertaken, in countries without compulsory identity cards, by IT companies who will be likely to reap rich benefits in the event of an identity card scheme being implemented.
• Cards with centralised database could be used to track anyone's movements and private life, thus endangering privicy. The proposed British ID card (see next section) will involve a series of linked databases, to be managed by the private sector. Managing disparate linked systems using a range of institutions and any number of personnel is alleged to be a security disaster in the making. This is actually what the star system on jews did in world war 2
• A requirement to carry an identity card/Finger print at all times can lead to the inconvenience of arbitrary requests from card controllers (such as the police). This can lead to functionality creep whereby carrying a card becomes de facto if not de jure compulsory, as in the case of Social security numbers in the USA and RSI numbers over here, which are now widely used as ID.
• This bit is important. Government claims that identity cards will prevent crimes may not be based in fact. The former UK Home sec Charles Clarke conceded that identity cards may be useful only in the identification of bodies in the aftermath of a crime. As a strong presumption of identity is given in favour of a card holder, the identity card scheme might be an asset to potential terrorists.
• In many cases, other forms of documentation such as a drivers licence, passport serve a similar function on a more limited scale, and thus an ID card is not needed.
• The cost of introducing and administering an identity card system can be very high. Figures from £30 (US$60) to £90 or even higher have been suggested for the proposed UK ID card.
• In some countries where ID cards were required to show religious affiliation (as used to be the case in greece) or ethnic background, this led to cases of discrimination. Under some interpretations of sharia law, apostate Muslims may be sentenced to death. malaysia's identity cards state the religion only if a person's religion is islam. This can become a bureaucratic nightmare or even lead to death when a person changes his or her affiliation.
• Some schemes do not adequately take into account whether data subjects have legitimate reasons to conceal their identity. Victims of domestic violence, witnesses in criminal investigations and trials, and others, may not want their identity or locations to be widely known. Some proposed schemes also do not adequately address these considerations.
• ID cards could lead to an increase in identity fraud since it would lead to official reliance on a card or document that can be forged. No country has ever successfully produced a totally unforgeable ID card. Also, stolen ID cards have also been used for identity fraud. Some countries have no expiration time, so that the photos can be old and unreliable, making stolen cards easier to use.
• Rather than focus on government-issued ID cards, federal policy has the alternative to encourage the variety of identification systems that exist in the private marketplace today. Many of the private systems already provide better assurance of identity and trustworthiness than many government-issued ID cards.

Just replace the card with the Fingerprint. Granted it cannot be stolen or forged but it takes away the same rights.

Collie D

No. I am not a criminal therefore nobody is taking my fingerprints. As for retina scans - my eyes are my best feature and I don't want the ugly old git in the post office cloning them. B-)

Bandit12

Yes i object

sold

Simply photo ID would be ok,!!

I know a family (I won't disclose the section of society they are from) and in the family there are 7 John Jones (surname not real name) Of the 7 only 4 collect the dole for the seven johns, 3 of the Johns are working in London. Since they all have the same name its an easy scam on the dole.

meditraitor

ID is the most economical way to go, but I think long term unemployed people should have to SIGN ON 2 or 3 time a week at the local unemployment office. There needs to be other processes as well, showing that the person is actively trying to get employment, CVs sent, courses applied for etc and this should be shown regularly.

On the flip side, accessing unemployment benefit should be streamlined and speeded up, its a disgrace that some newly unemployed people are waiting 1,2 months to get assistance.

themadchef

Here's a thought.

Instead of thinking up the most expensive ways for our government to prevent SW fraud. Why not spend the money on getting the people off the SW in the first place?

Almost everyone knows someone who is riding the system for all it's worth. If there wasint such a stigma attached to coming forward with information on these people more people would speak up.

It was never cool to grass up your neighbour even if they are practically taking the money from your pocket, it should be. You are made out to be the bad person even though they are the ones scamming the system. That's where the problem lies IMO.

Capt'n Midnight

In France they trailed a credit card with thumbprint instead of signature
fraud rates droped drastically

At present the only biometric used is a signature. Is this being verified anywhere ?
Is current OCR technology able to do this , do all the dockets signed end up in your file.

joe the lips wrote:

Commercial organisations such as banks typically do not try to authenticate the identity of a person, but rather the validity of a transactions (e.g. by signature or PIN) due to the acknowledged difficulty in reliably identifying an individual in a fraud proof and convenient manner. In otherwords. If the cards and signature match. The onus is on you to prove you did not take out the money. Sound familular to anyone!

This is why I dislike chip and pin , prior to it the banks accepted the risk on the transaction
NOW it's the customer who takes the risk, so there is no financial pressure on the banks to improve security unless customers change to a different bank

TouchingVirus

"Linked in to the Garda database" - Clearly you don't have much experience of inter-departmental cooperation within the civil service OP

I'm currently on the dole and would be against this system. Mainly because it'll require a database of fingerprints to be stored of everybody who is eligible for social welfare (i.e. most of the people with PPS numbers) - the thought of that unsettles me a good bit.

I'm not against cracking down on people who claim social welfare illegally, but other methods should be explored first