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Child Item

Fingerprint scan for you to claim benefits, would you object?

aligator_am

Hi Guys,

As the title indicates, would you object to needing to pass a fingerprint scan in order to collect the dole etc? I personally wouldn't, if you've nothing to hide then you've nothing to worry about

It would probably cost the goverenment about €30m to install these devices into all post offices (that figure is just a guess) but would save a vast amount of cash on the system cheats that are floating about. Also, if this system was linked in to the Garda database, it should also immediately flag any discrepacies, again, no issue if you've nothing to hide.

Personally, if I had my way then this would be just phase one, next level would be retinal scanners.

The initial cost may be substantial but the money it would save in the long run, I personally believe, would be far greater.

So what do you think? would you have an issue with it? do the PC brigade think it's an invasion of people's privacy? TBH I think there are far too many scammers out there, both homegrown and imported to leave this issue alone, the country is floundering, why not implement this system and recoup some of the lost cash?

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Joey the lips

aligator_am wrote: »

AFAIK that was the previous arrangement, which was removed as too many people were being paid the dole into their bank accounts while "travelling", also I believe that you need to currently present photo ID at the post office to collect the dole (not certain), clearly this system doesn't work.

Another reason why a digital passport would be far better. You are asking we give up our civil liberties because the govt cannot introduce a system where by they know when someone leaves the country.

Its funny because I can got to australia in the morning. They know i am there and they know how long I am staying and they know when I am due to leave.... But the govt in ireland who gave me the passport dont!

ejmaztec

Best thing is a chip in the head for everybody. That way, anyone claiming lone-parent allowance would explode if their chip came too close to the one that they're supposed to be apart from.

smk89

chin_grin wrote: »

.....It does worry how close we are to 1984. Be it ever so far behind us........Ah. What's this I'm doing!? future-maudlin?

Theres a slight difference between having your finger print taken to prevent fraud and the government declaring you an unperson if you disagree

crossmolinalad

smk89 wrote: »

Theres a slight difference between having your finger print taken to prevent fraud and the government declaring you an unperson if you disagree

The dutch are doing that since sept 2009
all who need a new passport must give 4 fingerprints
2 are going into the passport and 2 are going into a central data base
in the future (they think2 /3 years)if everyone have a new one they going to use itfor everything like tax. sw mortage bank accounts ect
u must have your passport or eu id card with u on the streets
if a officer or someone else ask for it u have to show it
not with u they can arrest u untill someone of your family brings it in

fingerprints or a pasphoto on your sw card is a real good idea
last week i was on the post office in ballina there were two wimen who had 5 sw cards with them . from the counter no questions they paid them all out

CantGetNoSleep

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

TBH, I don't think we have anything to worry about for a while, If the Government couldn't get their act together on electronic voting I doubt if they could organize this.

People on the dole should be more concerned about it being scrapped and those kicked out on the streets like most Eastern European countries. :eek:

If there ever is going to be some type of positive ID required for Social Welfare etc it will be in the form of a "smart card" and it will come from Europe.

I think it should be scrapped - and it is not only Eastern European countries that have no dole, the US and Central European countries don't either

Run_to_da_hills

CantGetNoSleep wrote: »

I think it should be scrapped - and it is not only Eastern European countries that have no dole, the US and Central European countries don't either

In the States many of the union shops pay your unemployment benefits, but only for a certain length of time and then you are on your ass.

amen

I think it should be scrapped - and it is not only Eastern European countries that have no dole, the US and Central European countries don't either

so what do you do if you can't find a job ? starve ? starting robbing people for food/money? seel drugs for money?

there are 450,000 unemployed people in Ireland. At least 200,000 of there were working 18 months ago. What are all these people to do?

Run_to_da_hills

amen wrote: »

so what do you do if you can't find a job ?

Sit under an ATM machine with a paper cup.

Mrmoe

I think it is a good idea. It will hopefully prevent people from claiming the dole and not being present in the country, thats if they also install them at airports and ports. The whole system could be automated meaning that you would no longer have to join a queue to sign on every month or so but would simply have to go up to a terminal and get your finger print scanned. If it matches then you get paid your benefits/allowances.

Run_to_da_hills

Mrmoe wrote: »

I think it is a good idea. It will hopefully prevent people from claiming the dole and not being present in the country, thats if they also install them at airports and ports. The whole system could be automated meaning that you would no longer have to join a queue to sign on every month or so but would simply have to go up to a terminal and get your finger print scanned. If it matches then you get paid your benefits/allowances.

I think it will also be an excellent idea, the authorities could take swabs from the thumb print reader and tell if the person was working, ie traces of cement or motor oil etc.

amen

still wouldn't stop someone from working and claiming social welfare.

may stop people claiming in multiple offices (maybe)

bnt

If the government's going to give out money, I'm not surprised they want to try and stop people from abusing the system.

Here's a thought: not everyone has a home, birth certificates, or phone bills, but everyone has a fingerprint. Could this open up benefits to those who currently "fall through the cracks"?

Joey the lips

I am very surprised at some of the people who have agreed with this idea. Here are some of the reasons I am against it.

Arguments against
Further information: freedom of movement and propiska

This section may contain original research or unverified claims. Please improve the article by adding references. See the talk page for details. (July 2009)

Commercial organisations such as banks typically do not try to authenticate the identity of a person, but rather the validity of a transactions (e.g. by signature or PIN) due to the acknowledged difficulty in reliably identifying an individual in a fraud proof and convenient manner. In otherwords. If the cards and signature match. The onus is on you to prove you did not take out the money. Sound familular to anyone!
It has been argued that identity cards impose a disproportionate burden upon both government and citizens while empowering the executive, which is contrary to the maxim: "the government that governs best, governs least". Some have pointed out that extensive lobbying for identity cards has been undertaken, in countries without compulsory identity cards, by IT companies who will be likely to reap rich benefits in the event of an identity card scheme being implemented.
Cards with centralised database could be used to track anyone's movements and private life, thus endangering privicy. The proposed British ID card (see next section) will involve a series of linked databases, to be managed by the private sector. Managing disparate linked systems using a range of institutions and any number of personnel is alleged to be a security disaster in the making. This is actually what the star system on jews did in world war 2
A requirement to carry an identity card/Finger print at all times can lead to the inconvenience of arbitrary requests from card controllers (such as the police). This can lead to functionality creep whereby carrying a card becomes de facto if not de jure compulsory, as in the case of Social security numbers in the USA and RSI numbers over here, which are now widely used as ID.
This bit is important. Government claims that identity cards will prevent crimes may not be based in fact. The former UK Home sec Charles Clarke conceded that identity cards may be useful only in the identification of bodies in the aftermath of a crime. As a strong presumption of identity is given in favour of a card holder, the identity card scheme might be an asset to potential terrorists.
In many cases, other forms of documentation such as a drivers licence, passport serve a similar function on a more limited scale, and thus an ID card is not needed.
The cost of introducing and administering an identity card system can be very high. Figures from £30 (US$60) to £90 or even higher have been suggested for the proposed UK ID card.
In some countries where ID cards were required to show religious affiliation (as used to be the case in greece) or ethnic background, this led to cases of discrimination. Under some interpretations of sharia law, apostate Muslims may be sentenced to death. malaysia's identity cards state the religion only if a person's religion is islam. This can become a bureaucratic nightmare or even lead to death when a person changes his or her affiliation.
Some schemes do not adequately take into account whether data subjects have legitimate reasons to conceal their identity. Victims of domestic violence, witnesses in criminal investigations and trials, and others, may not want their identity or locations to be widely known. Some proposed schemes also do not adequately address these considerations.
ID cards could lead to an increase in identity fraud since it would lead to official reliance on a card or document that can be forged. No country has ever successfully produced a totally unforgeable ID card. Also, stolen ID cards have also been used for identity fraud. Some countries have no expiration time, so that the photos can be old and unreliable, making stolen cards easier to use.
Rather than focus on government-issued ID cards, federal policy has the alternative to encourage the variety of identification systems that exist in the private marketplace today. Many of the private systems already provide better assurance of identity and trustworthiness than many government-issued ID cards.

Just replace the card with the Fingerprint. Granted it cannot be stolen or forged but it takes away the same rights.

Collie D

No. I am not a criminal therefore nobody is taking my fingerprints. As for retina scans - my eyes are my best feature and I don't want the ugly old git in the post office cloning them. B-)

Bandit12

Yes i object

sold

Simply photo ID would be ok,!!

I know a family (I won't disclose the section of society they are from) and in the family there are 7 John Jones (surname not real name) Of the 7 only 4 collect the dole for the seven johns, 3 of the Johns are working in London. Since they all have the same name its an easy scam on the dole.

meditraitor

ID is the most economical way to go, but I think long term unemployed people should have to SIGN ON 2 or 3 time a week at the local unemployment office. There needs to be other processes as well, showing that the person is actively trying to get employment, CVs sent, courses applied for etc and this should be shown regularly.

On the flip side, accessing unemployment benefit should be streamlined and speeded up, its a disgrace that some newly unemployed people are waiting 1,2 months to get assistance.

themadchef

Here's a thought.

Instead of thinking up the most expensive ways for our government to prevent SW fraud. Why not spend the money on getting the people off the SW in the first place?

Almost everyone knows someone who is riding the system for all it's worth. If there wasint such a stigma attached to coming forward with information on these people more people would speak up.

It was never cool to grass up your neighbour even if they are practically taking the money from your pocket, it should be. You are made out to be the bad person even though they are the ones scamming the system. That's where the problem lies IMO.

Capt'n Midnight

In France they trailed a credit card with thumbprint instead of signature
fraud rates droped drastically

At present the only biometric used is a signature. Is this being verified anywhere ?
Is current OCR technology able to do this , do all the dockets signed end up in your file.

joe the lips wrote:

Commercial organisations such as banks typically do not try to authenticate the identity of a person, but rather the validity of a transactions (e.g. by signature or PIN) due to the acknowledged difficulty in reliably identifying an individual in a fraud proof and convenient manner. In otherwords. If the cards and signature match. The onus is on you to prove you did not take out the money. Sound familular to anyone!

This is why I dislike chip and pin , prior to it the banks accepted the risk on the transaction
NOW it's the customer who takes the risk, so there is no financial pressure on the banks to improve security unless customers change to a different bank

TouchingVirus

"Linked in to the Garda database" - Clearly you don't have much experience of inter-departmental cooperation within the civil service OP

I'm currently on the dole and would be against this system. Mainly because it'll require a database of fingerprints to be stored of everybody who is eligible for social welfare (i.e. most of the people with PPS numbers) - the thought of that unsettles me a good bit.

I'm not against cracking down on people who claim social welfare illegally, but other methods should be explored first

Elessar

While you're linking this system to the Guards, we'll also install CCTV in your house, particularly your bedroom. We feel this will drastically cut marital abuse cases. Nothing to fear if you've nothing to hide.

We will also be closely watching your children on CCTV at all times, particularly when they are with you, and when they use the bathroom. This will particularly cut down physical and sexual child abuse cases. If you've nothing to hide you have nothing to fear. Any tampering of this equipment is an offence. Have a nice day.

Mike 1972

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I think it will also be an excellent idea, the authorities could take swabs from the thumb print reader and tell if the person was working, ie traces of cement or motor oil etc.

Because unemployed people all live in mud huts, travel by donkey and never do any DIY ?

monkeypants

crossmolinalad wrote: »

last week i was on the post office in ballina there were two wimen who had 5 sw cards with them . from the counter no questions they paid them all out

That's a human failing, no expensive, highly technical system is going to fix that.

aligator_am

TouchingVirus wrote: »

"Linked in to the Garda database" - Clearly you don't have much experience of inter-departmental cooperation within the civil service OP

Lol, the company I work for are contracted to not only the guards but the civil service too, the guards, to the best of my knowledge use a system called pulse which updates each terminal (country wide) every hour, I can't understand how that's a bad thing?

Yes, from what I've heard, there are currently some issues with inter departmenal system communications, surely it would be worth their while to sort this pronto, and not just for the system proposed in this thread?

aligator_am

monkeypants wrote: »

That's a human failing, no expensive, highly technical system is going to fix that.

Ummmmm, so you're saying that if a person turns up to collect the dole with 5 different cards and uses the fingerprint scanner 5 different times, same print against 5 different cards, that should be acceptable too?

This is one of the reasons why I suggested it should be linked into the Garda database, anyone trying to pull this bullsh1t should be reefed, including the post office staff for allowing it!!!!!

Let's be honest here, the SW is gonna get chopped this year, and there's another couple of these budgets to come yet boyos, would it not make sense to crush this type of malarky NOW instead of everyone having to suffer with even lower SW levels in the next budget?

And to those who are saying my proposal is like 1984, grow up, are you honestly telling me that it's OK for people to work their arses off, even more so now with the current economic climate, to support the select few who wouldn't take a job if it landed in their fookin lap?!!!!!

There are hundreds of thousands of people out there who have lost their job recently and are being put through the mincer to get all sorts of documents and yet those scumbag scammers who are lifelong dole fiends need produce nowt, please explain to me how this is fair?????

Mr. Presentable

TouchingVirus wrote: »

"Linked in to the Garda database" - Clearly you don't have much experience of inter-departmental cooperation within the civil service OP

I'm currently on the dole and would be against this system. Mainly because it'll require a database of fingerprints to be stored of everybody who is eligible for social welfare (i.e. most of the people with PPS numbers) - the thought of that unsettles me a good bit.

I'm not against cracking down on people who claim social welfare illegally, but other methods should be explored first

The scanners do not record a fingerprint.

ballsymchugh

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

TBH, I don't think we have anything to worry about for a while, If the Government couldn't get their act together on electronic voting I doubt if they could organize this.

People on the dole should be more concerned about it being scrapped and those kicked out on the streets like most Eastern European countries. :eek:

If there ever is going to be some type of positive ID required for Social Welfare etc it will be in the form of a "smart card" and it will come from Europe.

what exactly was the problem with electronic voting? as far as i can remember, it was just nora owen complaining about the way she found out that she wasn't elected, and george hook missing the craic of the count.

aligator_am

Elessar wrote: »

While you're linking this system to the Guards, we'll also install CCTV in your house, particularly your bedroom. We feel this will drastically cut marital abuse cases. Nothing to fear if you've nothing to hide.

We will also be closely watching your children on CCTV at all times, particularly when they are with you, and when they use the bathroom. This will particularly cut down physical and sexual child abuse cases. If you've nothing to hide you have nothing to fear. Any tampering of this equipment is an offence. Have a nice day.

Must ask, have you got your tinfoil hat on? from what I hear, the signals are stronger on a Sunday, you may, in fact, want to make an entire tin foil suit.

Mike 1972

ballsymchugh wrote: »

what exactly was the problem with electronic voting? .

Lots

But Im not going to drag this thread OT by explaining

PCPhoto

seriously OP -

I'm all in favour of stopping benefit fraudsters, but the best way to do it would be communication between departments and staff who can understand their job and perform it properly.

We are a nation of smart people !!! - no matter what system we adopt or create - there is always a flaw/loophole which people can find/exploit and yet the government either choose not to close the loophole or they are too inept to even notice it.