The Witch and the Dog R**ist

Varik

http://www.penny-arcade.com/2009/11/30/

There is a build in Modern Warfare 2 - Tactical Knife, Commando, Marathon, and Lightweight - that we have taken to calling the Witch. They are so called because this nefarious combination results in half-human abominations that can a) run faster than normal, forever, b) fall without damage, and c) teleport to targets killing them instantly. If you're wondering what something like this is doing in a "shooter," whose name ostensibly delineates the standard mode of interaction, well, let us know what you come up with. We're thinking about starting a support group.

Looking at the rest of the game, the knife is designed to be a reset. Like two misbehaving children, the use of it puts space between the two players, reverting to the optimal ranges of interdiction. Gears of War offers a similar mode of resolution, but in exchange for your chainsaw kill, you've got several seconds of full paralysis while the animation plays out - a few seconds you typically don't survive. By contrast, in Modern Warfare 2 - a game which, whatever liberties it took during its narrative, is not actually science fiction - allows players of infinite stamina to teleport and murder people.

The game's entire knife dialectic exists outside of the game proper. There are so many ways to make fine adjustments to your damage output with firearms that blades doing what is essentially infinite damage makes the rest of the game look like kabuki.

As mad as I'd like to be at these wicked sorcerers, I can't be - not really. All they've done is turn the game's subtext into the focus. They haven't modified any binaries. They're simply playing the game as delivered. We lost a single round to these kinds of tactics, and haven't lost another, but they turn it into some other game I don't have a lot of interest in. I wouldn't like it if a Chaos Marine drop pod landed on Highrise, either. Actually, that might be okay.

I'll get back to you.

Don't forget that in Medal Of Honor: Allied Assault - back when the guys who would found Infinity Ward were still at 2015, Inc - the retail build of the game allowed you to use the single player cheats in online games. You had to pull down the console and enter in a few words of power, as was customary in those days. Perhaps this is merely the evolution of this philosophy; a sort of populist, turnkey dominion.

(CW)TB out.

Risteard

I use all those perks in my main class except for tactical knife, I use throwing knives. And a lot of my kills are knife kills.

People don't seem to like this?

Dcully

Commando is possibly the most ridiculous perk ever in MW series.
I mean it magically extends ones arms to swing a knife at a distance greater longer than a bloody spear would reach :rolleyes:
To me this perk is ten times worse than martyrdom,last stand etc.

LD 50

Hmmm, must try this out though, just to see if its the evil unstoppable abomination everyone says it is.

wandatowell

It is very frustrating indeed,

Varik

just to say try it out in team games like ctf or sabotage

FutureGuy

Ohh I'm going to try this.

Oafley Jones

Varik wrote: »

http://www.penny-arcade.com/2009/11/30/

There is a build in Modern Warfare 2 - Tactical Knife, Commando, Marathon, and Lightweight - that we have taken to calling the Witch. They are so called because this nefarious combination results in half-human abominations that can a) run faster than normal, forever, b) fall without damage, and c) teleport to targets killing them instantly. If you're wondering what something like this is doing in a "shooter," whose name ostensibly delineates the standard mode of interaction, well, let us know what you come up with. We're thinking about starting a support group.

Looking at the rest of the game, the knife is designed to be a reset. Like two misbehaving children, the use of it puts space between the two players, reverting to the optimal ranges of interdiction. Gears of War offers a similar mode of resolution, but in exchange for your chainsaw kill, you've got several seconds of full paralysis while the animation plays out - a few seconds you typically don't survive. By contrast, in Modern Warfare 2 - a game which, whatever liberties it took during its narrative, is not actually science fiction - allows players of infinite stamina to teleport and murder people.

The game's entire knife dialectic exists outside of the game proper. There are so many ways to make fine adjustments to your damage output with firearms that blades doing what is essentially infinite damage makes the rest of the game look like kabuki.

As mad as I'd like to be at these wicked sorcerers, I can't be - not really. All they've done is turn the game's subtext into the focus. They haven't modified any binaries. They're simply playing the game as delivered. We lost a single round to these kinds of tactics, and haven't lost another, but they turn it into some other game I don't have a lot of interest in. I wouldn't like it if a Chaos Marine drop pod landed on Highrise, either. Actually, that might be okay.

I'll get back to you.

Don't forget that in Medal Of Honor: Allied Assault - back when the guys who would found Infinity Ward were still at 2015, Inc - the retail build of the game allowed you to use the single player cheats in online games. You had to pull down the console and enter in a few words of power, as was customary in those days. Perhaps this is merely the evolution of this philosophy; a sort of populist, turnkey dominion.

(CW)TB out.

Christ, that reads likes an excerpt from an undergrad's dissertation. Can't argue with it though.

weisses

MW2 is a big failure imo after playing MoH into the cod series they come up with this piece of c***p ... its not about gameplay its about ranking up got killed with those perks a couple of times ...seriously thought they were cheaters

Now i understand why they didn't let many pc reviewers test the game before release

craze7

I played about 4 games against on of thoes "Witch's" last night and i was cracking!!!! I was actually just trying to hunt him down and kill him, even running by other enemies in the process.

They can run over Claymores and through bullets and still stab you!

KillerBoots_Man

As I pointed out to a friend yesterday, I'll take an M16 assault rifle and you take that combat knife... Now run at me as fast as you like, we'll see who'll last longer.

According to the lagfested, marathon man, lightweight, commando perked, tactical knife inclined IW game designers I'll lose 99.9% of the time.

Really?

LD 50

That only works if he's running at you head on and you see him.
But in those situations where you're both coming round a corner, who's going to be the one still standing after.

And what happens when you run to your favourite spot, but the other guy has "teleported" there and knifes you.

Lukekul

I've been using that class since nearly the start, it's great fun in favela because with marathon pro you have no falling damage, there's nothing like flying out of the sky and stabbing some one. Quarry is good too if you keep away from open areas. I use the riot shield with it, great when some smart arse tries stabbing you in the back

Varik

the riot sheild makes you very slow

Lukekul

riot shield is grand on your back

armour87

I think 'teleporting around the map' is milking it beyond belief. A slightly longer melee attack, with a lock-on similar to Halo isn't teleporting.

And if your so incensed as to make a thread about it, why not counter there Commando with a heartbeat sensor or counter Lightweight with a thermal scope?

Notorious

Just finished a free for all map a few minutes ago where I came up against my first 'witch'. Damn was he annoying. He just kept running in behind me and knifing me in the back. That or he'd dodge my bullets. The little guy won too!

Varik

armour87 wrote: »

I think 'teleporting around the map' is milking it beyond belief. A slightly longer melee attack, with a lock-on similar to Halo isn't teleporting.

And if your so incensed as to make a thread about it, why not counter there Commando with a heartbeat sensor or counter Lightweight with a thermal scope?

i am one of the people doing it.

just to add if 2 of these people meet it's funny as hell, especially on Afghan with the plane and cliff to jump off and fight in mid air


all the initial post was from penny arcade, i even posted the link at the start

citizen_p

i dont get knifed much....stop camping and it wont happen.....
i only use command to avoid falling damage...

Dcully

Mousey- wrote: »

i dont get knifed much....stop camping and it wont happen.....
i only use command to avoid falling damage...

Define camping.
If im defending a flag in Domination or defending the bomb site in demolition am i camping in your eyes?

craze7

True that!!! People call you a camper if your in the same building for over 30 seconds in this game! To me a camper is somebody who crouches in the corner of a room and sits with the gun pointed at the door killing people and is still in the same place after you respawn and go back looking for them!

Oafley Jones

Mousey- wrote: »

i dont get knifed much....stop camping and it wont happen.....
i only use command to avoid falling damage...

eh? Most of my knife kills come from coming around corners or running up and stabbing some unsuspecting customer in the back. I've only had a handful of cases where I gutted someone who was staring down a scope.

Blazer

using this from the start as well...great fun although the novelty wears off...
I'm still having double the fun with dual glock 18s with extended mags

jtsuited

this and the akimbo 1887's is really annoying. i tried out the witch setup the other night and it was so easy but so boring.

serious flaw in balancing the game imo. so much worse than martyrdom, juggernaut, 3 frag, etc.

Snake Plisken

ok so I've tried this I've always been a knifer even on WAW, I've been using this for a week without the tactical knife and i was doing great, lots of complaints from my mates about stabbing them from about 10 feet away, so today I stuck on tactical knife and find it's not as good anyone else find that? I still find I die loads of times buts its good for us knifers

brian plank

between people running around with lightweight and commando and the javelin bug this game is getting old fast.

Sealclubber

Haha, the reaction to this is gas. I'm a proud tactical knifer, and steadfastly refuse to use bullets even on maps like Afghan and Wasteland(which rarely ends well for me). I'm going to give advice which is detrimental to me but I feel the power of tactical knifers is ridiculously overstated by people. If you know there to be a knifer on the map;

(a) Arm your shotgun when entering enclosed spaces. We can't handle that ****.
(b) If possible, stay away from enclosed spaces altogether. I lurk predominantly around buildings and I love nothing more than a team who tries to hole up in that house in Estate.
(c) Listen for footsteps. A lot of people don't bother doing this in general but it really helps. Knowing which direction he's coming from and how close he is is a massive advantage. Plus we're really easy to hear coming because our footsteps are faster.
(d) Don't pursue us if we kill you once, frustratedly looking for vengeance. We prefer people coming to us. In general, trying to get revenge on people always ends up in frustration and has been the reason for some very horrid experiences for me.
(e)You have a GUN. It's got many distinct advantages over a knife that I don't think I need to elaborate on.

And that's about it. I rack up class scores because most of the teams I seem to play are stupid and don't adapt. They go into the same rooms, they actively look for the me etc. But every now and again I run into people who immediately cop on and just alter their play slightly and send me on a one-way ticket to negative-ratioville.

Dacian

Sealclubber wrote: »

...........I'm a proud tactical knifer, and steadfastly refuse to use bullets even on maps like Afghan and Wasteland(which rarely ends well for me)............

At least he is admitting it....Sealclubber suits you as a name.

Are you Xbox360, just so I can i avoid your playertag?

c0rk3r

Bringing a knife to a nuke fight ?

The enemy can not push the button if you disable his hand

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1HcOVTrLRs

Sealclubber

Dacian wrote: »

At least he is admitting it....Sealclubber suits you as a name.

Are you Xbox360, just so I can i avoid your playertag?

I am. I'm sure the odds of us meeting are slim though, what with the millions of other people who play the game.

citizen_p

i hate the duel 1887's....what "modern" military uses them?



ive started witching...... its quite fun actully....i havnt made a class....i just use the default one (so no commando pro) but it is still easy enough....especially on skid row.....
for any other map im still an m4 guy..

BlitzKrieg

when me and my friends first ran into it we were a bit annoyed (not as much as the javalin glitch) but I had sort of pre empted the class, as my earlier posts from the games initial week it was the loadout I was aiming for as I guessed it would be pretty powerful. I havnt actually used it yet because of me moving house I havnt been played online much in the last week or so and I have 5 or so more kills to unlock it for my magnum.

But since exposed to it to of my friends have done up counters.

One puts the underbarrel shotgun on his assault rifles and switches to it when in enclosed spaces and even has gotten quick enough at it to switch when he see's one running at him and floors him just metres away.

The other uses a combination of sit rep pro and ninja pro (I think?) which makes the footsteps of your opponents much louder and makes your own silent, he can pretty pre empt them now.

but they are both much better players then me.


I think its sort of like chopper attack, initial response is to assume the worse and cry op, but a solution presents itself at some point...

though personnally I have not worked out the double shotties yet

minotour

I ran into a couple of them last night on Sabotage, they had no interest in planting the bomb or defending their base...........t'was a pity as up to that point we had two fairly good teams in play then ppl naturally started to get pissed off and left.

I dont mind if thats what some folk enjoy but at least stay out of the strategy games. Think back to the earliest online games, unreal etc, there was no way this would be tolerated, having said that I reckon these guys earliest online game is COD4 which they've been playing for 2 years straight, giving them an average age of 2-ish.

Risteard

minotour wrote: »

I ran into a couple of them last night on Sabotage, they had no interest in planting the bomb or defending their base...........t'was a pity as up to that point we had two fairly good teams in play then ppl naturally started to get pissed off and left.

I dont mind if thats what some folk enjoy but at least stay out of the strategy games. Think back to the earliest online games, unreal etc, there was no way this would be tolerated, having said that I reckon these guys earliest online game is COD4 which they've been playing for 2 years straight, giving them an average age of 2-ish.

I hate when that happens, I used to use the 'Witch' class minus the tactical knife but whenever I played Sabotage or another game, I always went for the bomb and tried to plant it.

It was funny last night. I joined a game on estate and the other team were clearly just trying to get their kill death ratios up. Two of them had about 35 kills and the rest had about 20 and the most a player had on my team was ten. They were staying up and around the house sniping. Anyway, I got out a sniper rifle and with about 2 minutes to go we managed to plant the bomb and I had a harrier strike so used that and we won. I say they were pretty shocked.

Screaming Monkey

"witches"...wow, there is a name for it, was playing team deathmatch the other day and a clan of 5 were perked up like that, people were "losing it big time" on the headset. After lots of my deaths, an trial'n'error, found if you shoot them in the face with the shotgun you win.

As for the double shotgun dogs, create distance, or hide when you
see them and shoot them in the back (heartbeat sensor helps), found that
they tend to run the same track around the map, so some cheap kills picking them off.

as Gunny Highway would say "We're Marines, sir. We're paid to adapt, to improvise. "

shawpower

I was playing in sub base last night, and picked off a DSD guy. I ditched my Stinger and picked up his akimbo 1887's. Have to say I found it pretty startling how much easier it was to pick people off. The accuracy of them seems very high, too much so possibly. I got about 5 kills with them, before getting picked off. But as I wandered around the map, I seemed to keep running over "Press X to pickup akimbo 1887's" options. So either there were a few of them playing that class, or the one guy kept getting killed off fairly quickly.

It'll certainly be something I'll look at unlocking the akimbo once I get to level 67 and unlock the 1887's. But I would suspect I'll stick to an AR as primary weapon. I do like using a shotgun though for close-in areas such as streets of favela, corridors of Skidrow etc.

Varik

the double 1887 on ctf with the rest of the witch set up to chase after flag capturers

Snake Plisken

hmmm the last patch has seemed to have taken some of the speed out of my witch setup seem to be moving a small bit slower then before anyone else notice this?

Oafley Jones

Snake Plisken wrote: »

hmmm the last patch has seemed to have taken some of the speed out of my witch setup seem to be moving a small bit slower then before anyone else notice this?

The modifier was changed from x1.10 to x1.07 according to posts on IW's forum.

shawpower

Are these patches just on the PC, or consoles too?

VinnyTGM

I'll have to give this 'witch' class a go, see if I'm any good with it.

LeoGilly

Have been trying this 'Witch' class a go for the past two days. It is alot of fun! Works very well on the wide open maps and very good fun on favela!

Sealclubber

I love what it's doing for my accuracy ratio. Every stab counts as a hit, so if I stab 3000 or so more people I should compensate for my early, clumsy gunwork and surpass 100%.

bumpydog

Lukekul wrote: »

I've been using that class since nearly the start, it's great fun in favela because with marathon pro you have no falling damage, there's nothing like flying out of the sky and stabbing some one. Quarry is good too if you keep away from open areas. I use the riot shield with it, great when some smart arse tries stabbing you in the back

If you've got a 'Witch' class, who's going to stab you in the back, Linford Christie?

Modern Warfare 2 - Gameplay by Infinity Ward, Networking by Skoda

Dacian

Oafley Jones wrote: »

The modifier was changed from x1.10 to x1.07 according to posts on IW's forum.

Can they modify/patch Xbox play?

I think they need to adjust the M1887s, for 120 yr old shotguns their range is far too good. I have been killed while up 3 stories on Quarry,a shotgun shouldn't have that range. Perhaps the play testers didn't spot this EXACT combo. And its piss easy to unlock Akimbo.

Maybe make shotgun a 'heavier' weapon to slow down witches who use them,that way other players who use lightweight and/or marathon aren't handicapped. And ensure that shotguns are powerful close range weapons, no picking people off from buildings.

Edit: and a shotgun shouldn't be able to shoot thru one guy and still kill the guy standing about 6 feet behind him (as just happened to me)

Robby91

Maybe make shotgun a 'heavier' weapon to slow down witches who use them

'The Witch' doesn't use a shotgun I believe, just a handgun with the Tactical Knife attachment

Varik wrote:

There is a build in Modern Warfare 2 - Tactical Knife, Commando, Marathon, and Lightweight - that we have taken to calling the Witch

And, in the situations where someone is going around with Akimbo Rangers/1887's, I doubt reduced movement speed will hinder them, since if they catch you at a corner, you're going to have a fair job of trying to outrun them before you get blown away :P

Although, on the point of shotgun range, that is a pain in the ass - being one-shotted by a single shotgun from (what would appear to be) a fairly big range (~distance between the two alley-ways leading from Point C to Point B on Karachi) is annoying as hell :<

Varik

I don't know why people think a shotgun has such a low range, it further than you think.
most games have a range far greater than their shown in games.
the thing a pisses me off is how short the effective range of smg is compared to reality.

GavRedKing

ive actually used this class from the start with a MP5K and after eventually unlocking the tactical knife with my magnum I found it very easy to go around stabbing people.

Ive driopped the tactical knife though as I was playing Karchi a few days ago and our teamgot destroyed on sabotage by a guy doing the above, I found it funny for a few rounds but have since dropped it.

BigDuffman

whats this javelin perk ppl are on about?

Oafley Jones

Varik wrote: »

I don't know why people think a shotgun has such a low range, it further than you think.
most games have a range far greater than their shown in games.
the thing a pisses me off is how short the effective range of smg is compared to reality.

Thing is, reality has nothing to do with the weapons in COD, it should be all about how they're balanced against one another.

shawpower

BigDuffman wrote: »

whats this javelin perk ppl are on about?

It's not a perk, it's a glitch. Basically there is a convoluted way of setting it up so that if you are killed, your javelin unleashes a big explosion, often killing enemies around you.

It is already or will be patched soon enough. Not come across it myself yet, but sounds annoying.