Banning of minarets in Switzerland

jonny72

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8385069.stm

I live in a muslim neighbourhood here on the continent, generally speaking its fairly calm, but there is a noticeable undercurrent of racial tension. Honestly speaking, integration is going backwards and immigration is turning into a big problem.

nesf

I'm surprised by this, when I heard about the referendum I expected it to fail.

Dannyboy83

Unfortunately, I have to agree with the OP.
Friends and girlfriends have been subjected to it, during the pyramid years and the aftermath.

One thing I do notice, is that people are rarely bothered by diversity when its within their own groups/social circles, but when its outside of it, even open minded people seem to become hostile.

For that reason, I've come to the conclusion that its mostly fear.
And I've found it more prevalent among women than men.

Flamed Diving

It's their country and their right to vote to ban it. Not saying I agree with it, in fact, I don't even see anything (positive) it achieves.

CamillaRhodes

I'm really shocked by this. Switzerland was always meant to be a state which promoted neutrality - this grossly discriminatory decision illustrates that neutral positions towards religious freedoms are becoming eclipsed by rightwing agendas (and let's be honest, when we say 'religious freedoms' it's usually christian vs muslim agendas).

The question of immigration and integration is hugely complex and I don't mean to disagree directly with the posters above. But this decision in Switzerland says a lot about the erosion of the moral high ground which many western liberal thinkers have held until now. With the BNP on the rise in the UK, I wonder how long will it take for us Irish (who have never been particularly keen on non-white/christian immigrants, even during the boom years) to start deeper forays into far right politics, like the Swiss?

ninty9er

I'm not sure what this aims to achieve, but it probably sends the message out there that :
"you come to our country, you live by our rules, integrate into our culture and become part of what we are. If you want to pick your life up and drop it here the same, then you're out of luck"

I can't say I'd disagree with that sentiment. Too much effort goes into making immigrants feeling they're at home, rather than making them feel that the way things are in their new country is now a part of what is home. The "making feel at home" effort has just created ghettos, the live as we do message tells them to get along with how we do things.

Nodin

A shameful act of sectarianism.

Clanrickard

Nodin wrote: »

A shameful act of sectarianism.

A great day for democracy. If you want to see shameful sectarianism countries with Sharia law are the place to go.

omahaid

It thats what the people of Switzerland want and vote for then we have to either accept it or ...? Still, IMO great day for democracy.

djpbarry

Clanrickard wrote: »

A great day for democracy.

omahaid wrote: »

...IMO great day for democracy.

Because minarets are undemocratic?

Iwasfrozen

djpbarry wrote: »

Because minarets are undemocratic?

No, because the people have made a decision and their country is sticking to it.
A great day for democracy.

Flamed Diving

Are you on about Lisbon?

murphaph

I'm not surprised at all by this tbh. The Swiss are a funny bunch but as others have said....it's their country and if the majority of people don't want minarets then so be it. It's not a violation of a human right to say "these structures don't fit in with traditional swiss ones", however I believe such decisions should be made by planning departments tbh.

MysticalRain

I can't say I'm surprised by this. People see Islam as an obstacle to immigration, and Swiss feminist groups had campaigned in favour of the ban.

Eliot Rosewater

CamillaRhodes wrote: »

I'm really shocked by this. Switzerland was always meant to be a state which promoted neutrality - this grossly discriminatory decision illustrates that neutral positions towards religious freedoms are becoming eclipsed

People seem to frequently tie Swiss neutrality in with a lot of other things they do. In lots of case this is done erroneously and I think usually by a misunderstanding of their neutrality.

Switzerland is an isolationist country which seeks to go its own way, valuing its national sovereignty very highly, relative to European states of course. That is why it is not in the EU and that is why it is the country with the longest unbroken policy of neutrality in modern history. I dont think its neutrality is there out of an unwillingness to decide which side to take in any given conflict, which CamillaRhodes seems to think.

When you look at it from this perspective the banning of minarets would seem to be slightly consistent with neutrality in that they are holding on to their national identity in the face of an immigration threat, perceived or otherwise.


Personally, I don't agree with it. Nor do I agree with this idea that if the majority sanction it it is somehow ok. I think that the construction of such a building should be subject to the approval of those whom it will effect, people who will be able to see it from their residences, not everyone in Switzerland. I thought the federal system was designed so: that one state could do something another didn't want to (and I notice 4 states voted against).

Manach

So given the Swiss decision, how should the EU deal with it.
Quietly ignore it as an internal matter to Switzerland or make a form of diplomatic representation against it?

Flamed Diving

The EU will probably bow to the veiled threats pressure coming from political Islamic councils.

nesf

Manach wrote: »

So given the Swiss decision, how should the EU deal with it.
Quietly ignore it as an internal matter to Switzerland or make a form of diplomatic representation against it?

The EU should make some comment of the need for inclusion and then leave it at that given that Switzerland isn't part of the EU or trying to join.

MysticalRain

Manach wrote: »

So given the Swiss decision, how should the EU deal with it.
Quietly ignore it as an internal matter to Switzerland or make a form of diplomatic representation against it?

Why would they? Switzerland isn't an EU member, and it would look hypocritical for the EU to complain about Switzerland banning minarets when churches and Synagogues are banned in places like Saudi Arabia.

Flamed Diving

MysticalRain wrote: »

Why would they? Switzerland isn't an EU member, and it would look hypocritical for the EU to complain about Switzerland banning minarets when churches and Synagogues are banned in places like Saudi Arabia.

Could you explain the hypocrisy there?

omahaid

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Could you explain the hypocrisy there?

Because they are the exact same, so the EU cannot comment on one without commenting on the other :rolleyes:

MysticalRain

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Could you explain the hypocrisy there?

Isn't it obvious?

Flamed Diving

omahaid wrote: »

Because they are the exact same, so the EU cannot comment on one without commenting on the other :rolleyes:

So, if the EU makes a comment about the actions of a country which it borders on all sides, yet doesn't stop to denounce every single country which also discriminates against any religion/s (past and present), then they are hypocrites? Yeah, I guess it kinda would, but it would be an awfully convoluted statement, don't you think?

MysticalRain wrote: »

Isn't it obvious?

No.

MysticalRain

Flamed Diving wrote: »

So, if the EU makes a comment about the actions of a country which it borders on all sides, yet doesn't stop to denounce every single country which also discriminates against any religion/s (past and present), then they are hypocrites? Yeah, I guess it kinda would, but it would be an awfully convoluted statement, don't you think?

I think any objective person would admit that you cannot expect the EU to lecture other countries about religious freedom as it pertains to Islam while ignoring how Islamic countries treat their own religious minorities. As the self-proclaimed leader of the Islamic world, and birthplace of Islam, you cannot ignore Saudi Arabia. If that's not a double standard, then I don't know what is.

But at the end of the day, I don't think the EU would be dumb enough to go down that road anyway.

Sand

I'm not surprised - liberties are defended by anti-democratic checks, not by referendums.

But the vote probably reflects the popular mood, that irrationally or not, is worried by what is seen as an alien religion/culture/value system. People are tribal, give them a voice to express their opinion on something that bothers them and dont be surprised when they express something tribalistic.

I am surprised by the idea that Switzerland is supposed to be a wholly welcoming place for minorities, certainly never seemed to be by my knowledge.

But I wouldnt get too worked up about it: whilst the ban on minarets is fairly unfair, in that church towers are not banned minarets in themselves arent that big a deal. Freedom of religion is still there.

Flamed Diving

MysticalRain wrote: »

I think any objective person would admit that you cannot expect the EU to lecture other countries about religious freedom as it pertains to Islam while ignoring how Islamic countries treat their own religious minorities. As the self-proclaimed leader of the Islamic world, and birthplace of Islam, you cannot ignore Saudi Arabia. If that's not a double standard, then I don't know what is.

But at the end of the day, I don't think the EU would be dumb enough to go down that road anyway.

But you should also want the EU to fit in all the countries who discriminate against (or even for) any religion, because that would be a double standard too.

MysticalRain

Flamed Diving wrote: »

But you should also want the EU to fit in all the countries who discriminate against (or even for) any religion, because that would be a double standard too.

I don't want them to be lecturing the Swiss to begin with. But if they were to follow your line and not look like a bunch of hypocrites, then they would be lecturing quite a few Islamic countries on the issue of religious freedom.

CamillaRhodes

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Switzerland is an isolationist country which seeks to go its own way, valuing its national sovereignty very highly, relative to European states of course. That is why it is not in the EU and that is why it is the country with the longest unbroken policy of neutrality in modern history. I dont think its neutrality is there out of an unwillingness to decide which side to take in any given conflict, which CamillaRhodes seems to think.

Eliot, I get what you're saying. But my point is that, in a world where ethnicity-driven nationalism and the so-called 'clash of civilisations' are the prime conflict threats, a state like Switzerland, with its four languages, multiple ethnicities and reluctance to get drawn into conflict (not because they can't decide which side to take, but the fact that 'taking sides' in a conflict rarely makes it better) could stand as a model for where most states should be. Unfortunately, this vote shows that Switzerland isn't as tolerant of diversity as I (and many people, such as the many international organisations headquartered in Geneva) may have thought.

And on the question of national diversity, the ethnic make-up of many (most?) states has changed over history, and will continue to do so for as long as we believe in the right to asylum for refugees and migration. I'm saddened to see Switzerland making such a regressive statement, when it would before have been the poster-boy for successful diversity.

The other thing which I find hugely troubling about this vote is that it is so symbolic, rather than practical. As other people have said, surely the question of new constructions should like with council planning authorities, and subject to the usual reviews from the general public, who have a right to object should they do so. Blanket bans on the use of symbols by a particular ethnic group is a very, very dangerous path to be going down.

Lame Lantern

This is a poor day for liberal constitutional democracy. Bigots can hide behind the declarations made by a single vote over 50% to validate their nonsense. However, any democracy that tolerates the suppression of expression (cultural or individual) based on the whims of the ballot box is philosophically bankrupt. The constitution should be the moral basis of any democracy, not the desires of any one group to maintain a beige aesthetic for their country. Democracy does not mean that you can tell other people what to do as long as you do so in large enough numbers.

Mr.Micro

The Swiss appear to be quite an insular people so the vote does not surprise me. One could argue that minarets are quite out of place in many western countries any way from a planning perspective at least.

SLUSK

Democracy ain't nothing but glorified mob rule.

Zambia

Lame Lantern wrote: »

Democracy does not mean that you can tell other people what to do as long as you do so in large enough numbers.

Thats exactly what democracy is ? The will of the majority becomes law.

Otherwise why bother holding elections?

Lame Lantern

Zambia232 wrote: »

Thats exactly what democracy is ? The will of the majority becomes law.

Otherwise why bother holding elections?

Constitutional democracies hold the enumeration of rights indivisible by any authority as their core value, not the whims of a large segment of society. While what you've said is true from a practical perspective, the employing of the democratic process to trample on the culture of a minority is utterly contrary to the democratic project. I declared the action philosophically bankrupt, not legally or by the letter of their political system.

That democracy can be employed by the majority to revoke rights from a minority disgraces the tenets of equal protection and the agency of the individual from which constitutional democracy emerges.

Grand Fromage

The Swiss run their country their way. If people don't like it, they can go elsewhere. Many of these Muslims were given sanctuary during the Balkan war and were damn glad to get it. They should remember that.

994

CamillaRhodes wrote: »

Blanket bans on the use of symbols by a particular ethnic group is a very, very dangerous path to be going down.

Religious group, you mean.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

One thing I do notice, is that people are rarely bothered by diversity when its within their own groups/social circles, but when its outside of it, even open minded people seem to become hostile.

For that reason, I've come to the conclusion that its mostly fear.
And I've found it more prevalent among women than men.

It's difficult to be tolerant of diversity when one must tolerate a group which hates diversity. And maybe women should be more afraid- look at Malmo.

imstrongerthanu

jonny72 wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8385069.stm

I live in a muslim neighbourhood here on the continent, generally speaking its fairly calm, but there is a noticeable undercurrent of racial tension. Honestly speaking, integration is going backwards and immigration is turning into a big problem.

Multiculturalism doesn't work.

And maybe they want they're country to not look like down town Iran.............

:cool:

imstrongerthanu

994 wrote: »

Religious group, you mean.



It's difficult to be tolerant of diversity when one must tolerate a group which hates diversity. And maybe women should be more afraid- look at Malmo.

No ethnic, because no swis were ever muslims.
Until? ............... the muslims came wippppyyyyyy

Flamed Diving

alastair

imstrongerthanu wrote: »

Multiculturalism doesn't work.

And maybe they want they're country to not look like down town Iran.............

:cool:

To quote the BBC report: Switzerland is home to some 400,000 Muslims and has just four minarets.

Some real idiocy at play in this thread.

imstrongerthanu

alastair wrote: »

To quote the BBC report: Switzerland is home to some 400,000 Muslims and has just four minarets.

Some real idiocy at play in this thread.

Switzerland as of 2009 = 7 739 100 people
4.3% of 7 739 100 = 332 781.3 people



4.3% of the population are Muslim immigrants.
Next time dish out insults to someone else!

Immigration has brought Islam (4.3%, predominantly Kosovars, Bosniaks and Turks)

djpbarry

imstrongerthanu wrote: »

4.3% of the population are Muslim immigrants.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that some of that 4.3% must have been born in Switzerland.

imstrongerthanu

djpbarry wrote: »

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that some of that 4.3% must have been born in Switzerland.

I'd say your correct in that people have sex in foreign countries.What point are you trying to make exactly?

djpbarry

imstrongerthanu wrote: »

I'd say your correct in that people have sex in foreign countries.What point are you trying to make exactly?

That a Muslim in Switzerland is not necessarily an immigrant?

imstrongerthanu

djpbarry wrote: »

That a Muslim in Switzerland is not necessarily an immigrant?

A muslim ? I'm talking 4000,000, your talking for the sake of an argument.

Clanrickard

What should also be noticed is that more women than men voted for the ban. I wonder why women would be afraid of Islam? hmmmmmmmmmmm..............

oscarBravo

imstrongerthanu wrote: »

4.3% of the population are Muslim immigrants.

imstrongerthanu wrote: »

A muslim ? I'm talking 4000,000, your talking for the sake of an argument.

I'm unclear as to who exactly is talking "for the sake of an argument".

You said (as I have quoted above) that 4.3% of the Swiss population are Muslim immigrants. Do you have a source for this? Did you meant that 4.3% are Muslim, and assumed that none of them are Swiss (i.e., all of them are immigrants)?

If you want a serious discussion, be clear in what you're saying and be prepared to discuss it in a civil manner.

peasant

To bring this thread down to a more factual level:
Switzerland did not ban Islam, nor did it ban mosks or prayer houses or islamic worship.
They did ban the building of structures that are positively alien to local custom and architecture. Banning them outright, instead of through the back door of planning laws.

(I would suspect that they did it that way because planning laws weren't written with minaretts specifically in mind)

There is another issue that piggy-backs with a minarett and that is the call to prayer. The sole purpose of a minarett is that the muezzin goes up there five times a day to praise Allah and call his congreation to prayer.

I for one can understand (and do support the idea) that Swiss people are not in favour of being woken by amplified calls of "Allah u Akhbar" at sunrise.
(It's cowbells and church bells they are used to and want to stick with)

The Swiss drew a line in the sand, rather than wrangling with individual mosks about whether or not they could have a minarett and/or a muezzin.

Yes ..this could be qualified as intolerant ...but so could the insistance of muslims to build a minarett and call to prayer in the middle of a Swiss village.

oscarBravo

Clanrickard wrote: »

What should also be noticed is that more women than men voted for the ban. I wonder why women would be afraid of Islam? hmmmmmmmmmmm..............

I take it we can add islamophobia to the list of Amhrán Nua's policies, so?

oscarBravo

peasant wrote: »

Yes ..this could be qualified as intolerant ...but so could the insistance of muslims to build a minarett and call to prayer in the middle of a Swiss village.

How many minarets have been built in Swiss villages?

CamillaRhodes

Wow. Just, wow. Never spent much time in the Politics forum before. Don't think I'll be doing so again. Good luck, y'all.

imstrongerthanu

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm unclear as to who exactly is talking "for the sake of an argument".

You said (as I have quoted above) that 4.3% of the Swiss population are Muslim immigrants. Do you have a source for this? Did you meant that 4.3% are Muslim, and assumed that none of them are Swiss (i.e., all of them are immigrants)?

If you want a serious discussion, be clear in what you're saying and be prepared to discuss it in a civil manner.

Immigration has brought Islam (4.3%, predominantly Kosovars, Bosniaks and Turks)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland#Religion
Second paragraph.

As I said foreigners like to have sex and then comes children...