What's wrong with those Veggies?

VeGeek

Most of the vegetarians and vegans are converted meat eaters, so they inherit habits from their former diets which make them:

* try hard to convert meat dishes to veg
* try hard to find substitutes for meat and cheese
* fear of having too little protein in their food
* fear of having too few calories in their food

All these impede the process of developing a simple and healthy diet, which should be based on fresh, uncooked products.

On the other hand being a veggie myself I know how hard it is to break free from mom's cooking or take-aways, if that was what you used to eat for many years.

Thoushaltnot

Em, please don't lecture me. Advocate for better dietary habits, by all means but don't tell me what I should and shouldn't eat, nor in some way imply that I am somehow locked in the past because I eat vegetarian fake meat dishes (among others). Unless you've discovered some new research linking veggie equivalent dishes with health problems, etc. and you actually have an objective point.

We all know fresh food is better than stale/old and that cooking usually destroys nutrients but beans *have to be cooked* to kill toxins - typically boiled for 10 mins. Potatoes *have to be cooked*. Root vegetables, especially if grown in manure need to be cooked - carrots have more bioavailable beta carotene after cooking and you also need to kill off nasties, like the ones that cause toxoplasmosis. Non baby leaf spinach too is better cooked.

I've never worried about too few calories in my diet - nor any veg*n I know. Where'd you get that rubbish from?
Iron levels, definately yes - yet you don't have that listed. Calories, nope.
Protein - only in the early days.

And maybe someone else could confirm this but I remember reading that winter is not the time of year to turn raw foodist (if that's the agenda your pushing) - it's something to do with the ill effects of cold food on the stomach in cold weather. I also find it much harder to sprout lentils/seeds etc. at this time of year, anyhoo.

Plus, when it's bloody freezing, I just want a hot dinner/breakfast without any drama. Just like a meater...but I don't see you dictating your opinions to them. Health wise, the data is there in bucketloads that we need to eat much less meat, if any (apart from fresh, non farmed fish) for a healthier, longer life and much more fresh fruit and veg. But you'd be preaching to the converted here. And way less of the "white" foods, just for the sake of "completeness".

So, do you have any delicious suggestions of main meals, etc. that are non meater paradigms, that will win us over to your way of thinking, eh? ie. Have you anything useful to post?

VeGeek

Hey, I didn't write what you should or shouldn't eat as it's a matter of personal preferences. I've been on uncooked food for a couple of months now (well, except for some social occasions...) and can say it's possible to live on it. Earth has 2 hemispheres and when Winter comes to the Northern one there's Summer in the South and vice versa, so fruits grow all year round.

I find mangos delicious. And apples, pears and practically every fruit. The thing is each fruit has its own special taste and is full of natural flavourings. The use of spices and condiments comes from meat recipes, because meat itself has poor taste qualities and requires preparations to become delicious.

The bullet points I listed were just my observations of people I met and were especially true for those who didn't make it as veg*ns and got back to meat eating. I don't say those points apply to all veggies.

sweet-rasmus

Earth has 2 hemispheres and when Winter comes to the Northern one there's Summer in the South and vice versa, so fruits grow all year round.

Food miles not an issue for you? They would bother me.

Thoushaltnot

VeGeek wrote: »

Hey, I didn't write what you should or shouldn't eat as it's a matter of personal preferences. I've been on uncooked food for a couple of months now (well, except for some social occasions...) and can say it's possible to live on it.

"possible to live on it" is hardly a glowing recommendation. And I don't mean to be rude, but anyone here regularly already knew this as there are a few raw vegans on Veggie boards.
As it appears to be your first winter as a raw vegan, they can help keep you on the straight and narrow. This is the place to post questions. People here are great for helping and advising newbies and not so newbies.

Earth has 2 hemispheres and when Winter comes to the Northern one there's Summer in the South and vice versa, so fruits grow all year round.

1. I live in Ireland all year round, as do most of us here. Fruits don't grow in Ireland, under normal circumstances here in Winter. I try to eat seasonally.
2. There are people here who are veg*ns for environmental reasons.

The use of spices and condiments comes from meat recipes, because meat itself has poor taste qualities and requires preparations to become delicious.

Fact? Proof please.

As for meats "poor taste qualities", some of us are blessed with an aversion to the taste/mouthfeel of meat but actually, most people - veggie are otherwise have the opposite problem. I mean, most of us have met meaters who would like to be veggie but they just couldn't give up some or all meats. Some are nice about it - almost apologetic. Usually though, meaters are plain gratuitous about how much the love (the taste of) meat. There's even a veggie or two up here who love their meat but they absorb too much iron from meat and want to not die from that, so they've gone veggie. (It's that or regular bloodletting, apparently.)

Personally, I loved it - especially roast beef, pork loin, chicken, home made beef burgers, fish pie. I don't miss any of it, except occasionally fish. Quorn sausages don't make me want "the real thing" but they're yum. Ditto quorn chicken, etc.

My understanding is that Spices were originally identified for their medicinal properties but hey, have a read of Wikipedia - there's preservation/antimicrobial qualities and showing off that you're rich in there too;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spice

The bullet points I listed were just my observations of people I met and were especially true for those who didn't make it as veg*ns and got back to meat eating. I don't say those points apply to all veggies.

That's the first mention you've made that this was mostly about people who failed at being vegetarian. No mention of it in your original post.

I'm sure you mean well, but you have a tendency to post statements (which imply stating a fact) rather than qualifying them with "It seems to me...", "I could be wrong but..", for example or even backing yourself up with some kind of proof. You might want to watch that in future posts. My first reaction to your post was "Who died and made you an expert in all of us?" followed swiftly by a "Not really somebody burdened by the difference between facts and opinions".

Mentalmiss was the first person that made me interested in the raw vegan lifestyle, in that she shared her experience of having more vitality in her life. There are others up here who have noticed an improvement in their health and vigor too, after switching to raw veganism.

If it helps, many moons ago I ended up eating little more than apples every day over a summer. I didn't die, collapse, fade away and I was as full of energy at the end of the Summer as I was at the start - fuller, actually. What's more, my iron levels were fine and I could give blood. I'd been a veggie several years by that stage and half the time my iron level were just under par, so I'd have to make an effort and come back and then I'd be fine to donate. But strangely enough, on an apparently inadequate diet, I was fine.

Somebody else has pointed out elsewhere on that forum that the scientific
thinking behind diet and nutrition must be incomplete as it fails to explain why so many raw foodists are thriving and from personal experience, I'd have to second that.

VeGeek

It's true that meat, dairy and pickles made nations survive in cold climates. It doesn't mean however that they are necessary elements of a human diet.

Spices like salt, pepper or vinegar can do for food preservatives. Herbs do have some medicinal properties, but a healthy man doesn't need medicines. Some condiments like garlic or onion are strong antibiotics, so they destroy bacterial flora which is important for digestion.

The meaters I know are not willing to give up meat for many reasons. There has been a propaganda for meat eating for years which affected people's thinking of the human nutrition and formed an industry to grow around it - farming, dining and more.

Hey guys, please don't take the subject of this thread too literally nor personally. Wrong doesn't mean automatically mean evil and it's not the purpose of this thread to disrespect anyone from this forum. A discussion can be initiated with a statement as well as with a question.

VeGeek

sweet-rasmus wrote: »

Food miles not an issue for you? They would bother me.

Yeah, but fruits can last long in certain conditions. As long they don't go bad, you can eat them enjoying the taste and nutritional values.

ztoical

VeGeek wrote: »

Most of the vegetarians and vegans are converted meat eaters, so they inherit habits from their former diets which make them:

* try hard to convert meat dishes to veg
* try hard to find substitutes for meat and cheese
* fear of having too little protein in their food
* fear of having too few calories in their food

All these impede the process of developing a simple and healthy diet, which should be based on fresh, uncooked products.

On the other hand being a veggie myself I know how hard it is to break free from mom's cooking or take-aways, if that was what you used to eat for many years.

Who are those veggies that there's something wrong with? This is a totally pointless post without any sort of context and as for a raw food diet there are huge nutritional deficiencies and very high risks of food poisoning with it.

VeGeek wrote: »

Earth has 2 hemispheres and when Winter comes to the Northern one there's Summer in the South and vice versa, so fruits grow all year round.

And how does that fruit get here? Try eating local seasonal fruit and veg rather then buying mangos that have to be shipped or flown from another country thus adding to the carbon foot print.

fillefatale

VeGeek wrote: »

Yeah, but fruits can last long in certain conditions. As long they don't go bad, you can eat them enjoying the taste and nutritional values.

That didn't answer her question.

The very title of this thread is very condescending. It's the sort of veggie 'fascism' I despise, one would have very few friends if we all kept those standards.

ztoical wrote: »

And how does that fruit get here? Try eating local seasonal fruit and veg rather then buying mangos that have to be shipped or flown from another country thus adding to the carbon foot print.

Here here! Being conscious of where your food is sourced from is one of the foremost points of vegetarianism and veganism, simple as.

-lala-

VeGeek wrote: »

Most of the vegetarians and vegans are converted meat eaters, so they inherit habits from their former diets which make them:

* try hard to convert meat dishes to veg
* try hard to find substitutes for meat and cheese
* fear of having too little protein in their food
* fear of having too few calories in their food

All these impede the process of developing a simple and healthy diet, which should be based on fresh, uncooked products.

On the other hand being a veggie myself I know how hard it is to break free from mom's cooking or take-aways, if that was what you used to eat for many years.

Em, wtf? Honestly, have a little respect for other peoples diets. The people on this forum are vegetarians and vegans, and that's what this forum is for the discussion of, not what kind of vegetarian and vegan food the right kind of vegetarians eat, or whatever it is you're trying to promote. And personally, I have never tried to convert a meat dish to a vegan dish, or tried to find substitutes for animal products, or worried about protein or calories. I don't know many veg*ns who do, so I'm really not too sure what you mean by "most of the vegetarians and vegans".

You seem to be one of those kinds of people who gives the rest of us a bad name by trying to force your opinions on everyone. Please stop that.

Gknit

VeGeek wrote: »

Some condiments like garlic or onion are strong antibiotics, so they destroy bacterial flora which is important for digestion.

Where did you hear that? I'm not automatically saying you're wrong or anything but I wouldn't have thought their antibacterial effect would have outweighed their other benefits. I did a quick google about it and didn't find any scientific studies supporting your theory. I did find a page that stated: "There are other foods, such as bananas, garlic and onions, which can also help repopulate levels of the good bacteria in the intestine." and another that said "When cooked and eaten with other foods, alliums [which include garlic and onions] help lower your insulin peaks, reducing inflammation, and protect you against cancer."

Sorry for being pedantic but I wouldn't call garlic or onion condiments. They're just vegetables. Strongly flavoured vegetables but still vegetables. I was under the impression that it's good for a person to eat as wide a variety of fruit and vegetables as possible.

The tone of your post was rather condescending. I'm happy for you if you feel good about yourself for being a raw food vegan or whatever, but surely you don't have to slag off how other people eat to make yourself feel even better? How other people eat is none of your business. I don't mean to be telling you that you're wrong to not eat garlic and onions, that's your decision. I'm just questioning whether it's a good idea to tell other people not to, when they may well be beneficial for a person's health.

-lala-

Gknit wrote: »

I don't mean to be telling you that you're wrong to not eat garlic and onions, that's your decision. I'm just questioning whether it's a good idea to tell other people not to, when they may well be beneficial for a person's health.

On that note, onions, garlic, parsnips, carrots, turnip etc are very good for a person's digestive health, and are particularly good for those with stomach problems.

Miss Lockhart

VeGeek wrote: »

Most of the vegetarians and vegans are converted meat eaters, so they inherit habits from their former diets which make them:

* try hard to convert meat dishes to veg
* try hard to find substitutes for meat and cheese
* fear of having too little protein in their food
* fear of having too few calories in their food

All these impede the process of developing a simple and healthy diet, which should be based on fresh, uncooked products.

Have you any actual evidence to back up the claims that:
(a) being a "converted meat eater" makes people do any of these,
(b) these factors "impede the process of developing a simple and healhty diet"
(c) a healthy diet "should be based on fresh, uncooked products"??

VeGeek wrote: »

Yeah, but fruits can last long in certain conditions. As long they don't go bad, you can eat them enjoying the taste and nutritional values.

Food miles has little to do with what condition the food wil be in after transport and more to do with the perceived damage caused by the seemingly unnecessary transport itself.



Tbh, having been a veggie for 13 years now, the only thing that annoys me more than meat-eaters on an ill-informed anti-veg rant is being preached at by other veggies who are on an equally ill-informed rant.

I don't actually think you mean any harm OP, but it's posts like this that create/add to the negative image of vegetarianism/veganism.

Mellor

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

Tbh, having been a veggie for 13 years now, the only thing that annoys me more than meat-eaters on an ill-informed anti-veg rant is being preached at by other veggies who are on an equally ill-informed rant.

I don't actually think you mean any harm OP, but it's posts like this that create/add to the negative image of vegetarianism/veganism.

this.

Thoushaltnot

@VeGeek;

If I had to guess, I'd say that you're not so much raw vegan as raw fruitarian but either way I do actually suspect that you may be suffering from malnutrition / starvation, after a couple of months of this. You're posts and replies suggest confusion / inability to concentrate. Do people often comment on your weight?

If I'm right, there's no shame in going back to a full veggie diet till you get back to full health and then you can get back to the drawing board to analyze what went wrong/what you can do better, if you're determined that raw veganism is the way for you.

VeGeek

See lessons #29 and #36 at www.rawfoodexplained.com for more info on garlic and condiments in food. The harmfulness of condiments like black pepper, vinegar or mustard is also mentioned by Stephen H. Hay in his book 'Health via Food'. You can find a free pdf copy online if look it up.

I've been without cooking for over 6 months now and no starvation occurred so far. Actually it's been a total opposite - as I work out regularly and noticed improvements in my overall performance. Quitting cooking also lowers your carbon footprint if you care about it.

ztoical

VeGeek wrote: »

I've been without cooking for over 6 months now and no starvation occurred so far. Actually it's been a total opposite - as I work out regularly and noticed improvements in my overall performance.

Well good for you but just because you think it's worked for you does not mean it will work for other people and also does not give you right to be so smug and rude towards others. I often tell people I had health issues before going veggie and altering my diet changed my health for the better HOWEVER I'm also quick to tell people that just because it worked for me does not mean it will be the same for them and each person needs to find what works for them.

VeGeek wrote: »

Quitting cooking also lowers your carbon footprint if you care about it.

That's a pretty weak argument to counter the massive carbon footprint from importing food. A raw food diet actually doesn't mean not cooking your food, it's not cooking food over a certain temperature. The amount of energy used to cook food is very low esp with modern appliances...air and sea travel on the other hand have the biggest carbon footprints and food brought by ship will need more chemicals to make it last.

shift

ztoical wrote: »

Who are those veggies that there's something wrong with? This is a totally pointless post without any sort of context and as for a raw food diet there are huge nutritional deficiencies and very high risks of food poisoning with it.



And how does that fruit get here? Try eating local seasonal fruit and veg rather then buying mangos that have to be shipped or flown from another country thus adding to the carbon foot print.

oh that is interesting news.

Could you elaborate that if you don't mind?

ztoical

shift wrote: »

oh that is interesting news.

Could you elaborate that if you don't mind?

There are a number of seeds that need to be cooked in order to insure dangerous and even deadly microorganisms are killed. A raw food diet means you can't eat anything that has been pasteurized which for diary eating veggies would mean dangers from Milk and similar products and for non diary people unpasteurized fruit juices can be dangerous. I'm not saying a raw food diet can't work but it's something that needs to be looked into correctly before jumping in. It's not just a case of not cooking food as some assume. Raw foodism does include cooked food, it's just not cooked above a certain temp and great care needs to be taken on intake of food with regard calories, viatmins and minerals. Some foods like carrots increase in the amount of antioxidants they release when cooked and certain foods need to be cooked at least somewhat in order to digest them as our digestive tracks have evolved over the years to eat mainly cooked foods. It's not a diet one should jump into blindly or cus they read some shinny pro raw food website.

JulietLima

We all have our own reasons for what we do what we do. live and let live, your responsible for your own choices including your eating habits. leave it at that.

myself im vegan for medical reasons. and would actually like to have meat so the meat substitutes work very well for me.

Sapsorrow

VeGeek wrote: »

Most of the vegetarians and vegans are converted meat eaters, so they inherit habits from their former diets which make them:

* try hard to convert meat dishes to veg
* try hard to find substitutes for meat and cheese
* fear of having too little protein in their food
* fear of having too few calories in their food
.

Sorry I know I'm joining in this thread a bit late but seriously WHERE are you getting this sterotype from!?
This is a ridiculous post and am feeling pretty offended by it.
I never use meat substitutes, I rejoice in cooking traditionally vegetarian cooking particularly Indian, I think protein is a totally over rated nutrient which if anything meat eaters are paranoid about and have no less problems in terms of over consumption of calories as any joe so off the street.

Sapsorrow

Thoushaltnot wrote: »

And maybe someone else could confirm this but I remember reading that winter is not the time of year to turn raw foodist (if that's the agenda your pushing) - it's something to do with the ill effects of cold food on the stomach in cold weather. I also find it much harder to sprout lentils/seeds etc. at this time of year, anyhoo.

You're referring to the concept in traditional chinese medicine of using the physical and energetic properties in a foodstuff (such as the physical concept of hot or cold as well as the energetic properties of heat forming or cooling) to balance the strains each of us face in the physical and emotional aspects of our lives. I think Ayurveda have a similar concept.
It make perfect intuitive sense, and usually this sort of common logic is inherited from our older and wisers but alas these days most peoples parents or even grandparents are too far removed from the food chain themselves to been so tuned in to their food and it's effects.
In China this sort of intuitive sense is a significant part of their food culture and children adopt the philosophy subconsciusly from their elders without ever putting any effort in and in this way they grow up 'knowing' what to eat when and what to eat to treat certain illnesses.
Anyway hopefully that answers your question however off topic

Sapsorrow

VeGeek wrote: »

I've been without cooking for over 6 months now and no starvation occurred so far. Actually it's been a total opposite - as I work out regularly and noticed improvements in my overall performance. Quitting cooking also lowers your carbon footprint if you care about it.

Not trying to nit pick here but food dehydrators take AGES!

From a nutritional standpoint (as an ex-raw foodist myself) my main issues with the diet are:
(a) it can be extremely weakening in the long run despite the initial sensations of vitality and energy as it is overly cleansing by nature, I truely believe these intial perceived benifits come at a price in the long run and are unsustainable. This makes the diet generally unsuitable for people suffering from wasting or weakening diseases.
(b) The diet generally isn't suitable for people with nutrient malabsorption conditions (IBS, Chrones etc..)
(c) A lot of harmful components in food stuffs in particular those that form the basis of a vegetarian or vegan diet are neutralized by cooking. Phytate is the biggie here and seriously inhibits the absorption of a variety of minerals.
(d) Any diet based on a principle of extremity (ie a diet of all raw foods or all cooked foods rather than a diet with cooked and raw foods) rather than balance is counter intuitive and goes against common sense.

There is a natural inclination towards higher raw food consumption in the spring and in particular the summer. This makes sense as salad veg comes into season, we spend more time outdoors in the sun and the warmth and we shift our focus onto cooling and cleansins foods to balance the heat.
It makes equal sense in the autumn and winter to turn to warming and building foods to prepare ourselves best for the long cold winter.

Mentalmiss

VeGeek wrote: »

Most of the vegetarians and vegans are converted meat eaters, so they inherit habits from their former diets which make them:

* try hard to convert meat dishes to veg
* try hard to find substitutes for meat and cheese
* fear of having too little protein in their food
* fear of having too few calories in their food

All these impede the process of developing a simple and healthy diet, which should be based on fresh, uncooked products.

On the other hand being a veggie myself I know how hard it is to break free from mom's cooking or take-aways, if that was what you used to eat for many years.

I find the same thing in the raw food movement. You can get "mock tuna" and "egless egg salad" "pizza" and "mashed potato" among other things.
I prefer to keep it simple. I do not need food that pretends to be anything other than what it is (other than my daily fix of "ice cream") but "what's in a name that which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet". Maybe I will just call it something else.
I will now go and have by daily "frozen treat".

Mentalmiss

I have read all of the posts in this thread and am a little disappointed that we can not all pull together.
It is hard enough for us all to be veg in a meat eating society without pulling each other down. I think that the OP was well meant and the intention was to help. Please cut a little slack here so that we can all learn from each other.

Sapsorrow

Mentalmiss wrote: »

I have read all of the posts in this thread and am a little disappointed that we can not all pull together.
It is hard enough for us all to be veg in a meat eating society without pulling each other down. I think that the OP was well meant and the intention was to help. Please cut a little slack here so that we can all learn from each other.

I understand your point but it doesn't take from the fact that it was a tactless post and fairly pointless thread to start in a vegan/vegetarian forum.
If a meat eater came in and wrote a post like that they'd get a huge response so I don't really see why being a vegetarian should mean that we let irritating and insulting posts go without a response. I think everyone here is sick to death of being stereotyped regardless of whether it's a vegetarian or meat eater or whoever doing it.
Generally I think everyone on the veggie forum is great and do have a great sense of solidarity but the whole point of a post is to either inform, look for advice or get a debate going so that's what is naturally going to happen and I'm sure the OP knows to expect that.

Mentalmiss

khrystyna100 wrote: »

I understand your point but it doesn't take from the fact that it was a tactless post and fairly pointless thread to start in a vegan/vegetarian forum.
If a meat eater came in and wrote a post like that they'd get a huge response so I don't really see why being a vegetarian should mean that we let irritating and insulting posts go without a response.
Generally I think everyone on the veggie forum is great and do have a great sense of solidarity but the whole point of a post is to either inform, look for advice or get a debate going so that's what is naturally going to happen and I'm sure the OP expects that.

I was speaking from the position of someone who is constantly "putting her food in it" herself. You do not always get your meaning and intention across correctly.

Sapsorrow

Mentalmiss wrote: »

I was speaking from the position of someone who is constantly "putting her food in it" herself. You do not always get your meaning and intention across correctly.

Lol fair enough, I see what you mean, the OP is always welcome back to defend or explain herself and her points, it's the feckin jungle in here every man for themselves! (I learnt that one de hard way in my early days esp in the nutrition forum )

VeGeek

For those who feel offended: re-read the title of this thread. If my point was to was to disrespect anyone, I wouldn't bother to capitalise V in Veggie.

Anyway no matter how much you like the cooked food it doesn't make it any better/healthier. Most of the common dishes are badly composed for the human digestive system. It's not only about the irritating spices, but also incompatible food combinations, ie. starch + diary products, starch with sour/acid foods - especially Italian cuisine is full of such. The problem in this example is that starch needs basic conditions to be fully digest. Diary products need acid conditions and sour sauces create acid conditions, so they don't go well with starch. Refer to S. H. Hay and T. C. Fry for more details.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

VeGeek wrote: »

For those who feel offended: re-read the title of this thread. If my point was to was to disrespect anyone, I wouldn't bother to capitalise V in Veggie.

Anyway no matter how much you like the cooked food it doesn't make it any better/healthier. Most of the common dishes are badly composed for the human digestive system. It's not only about the irritating spices, but also incompatible food combinations, ie. starch + diary products, starch with sour/acid foods - especially Italian cuisine is full of such. The problem in this example is that starch needs basic conditions to be fully digest. Diary products need acid conditions and sour sauces create acid conditions, so they don't go well with starch. Refer to S. H. Hay and T. C. Fry for more details.

Oh judgey a lot of vegetarians feel the same way about meat as you feel about cooked food, and a lot of vegans feel the same way about dairy. However, most people don't bring it up apropos of nothing as it tends to come across as condescending and not win anybody over to their side.

Sapsorrow

VeGeek wrote: »

Most of the common dishes are badly composed for the human digestive system. It's not only about the irritating spices, but also incompatible food combinations, ie. starch + diary products, starch with sour/acid foods - especially Italian cuisine is full of such. The problem in this example is that starch needs basic conditions to be fully digest. Diary products need acid conditions and sour sauces create acid conditions, so they don't go well with starch. Refer to S. H. Hay and T. C. Fry for more details.

At what point did we move from raw foodism to food combining exactly?
To be fair you said you've been doing the raw food for a couple of months, you're still in your transitionary phase (everyone goes through one after a major diet/lifestyle change) and are basically honeymooning and probably going through a fairly massive detox if you weren't all that healthy to begin with so what you're experiencing isn't necessarily indicative of what you'll feel like in another year. You're aren't in a position to advocate the diet from your own experience just yet, come back in maybe five years and let us know how it's affected you. A few months is nothing with diet.