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Soul Winner said:
You said Christians can't face God's wrath, and since you claim the Tribulation is His wrath they can't be in it. Yet here you acknowledge members of the Church in the Tribulation.Originally Posted by wolfsbane
We can reject this on the basis even of your own principle: those whom Christ died for can not be the objects of His wrath. But you admit you have such people in the Tribulation period. If the Tribulation is His wrath, then you contradict yourself.
The coming of the wrath of God is what makes them turn to God and His Christ and therefore become part of His church, but because this happens after the Rapture of the Church they must needs endure this Tribulation and most likely give their lives for their faith because up until this point they had not accepted the atoning work of Christ. I can't see the contradiction at all.
You said the rider on the white horse in Rev. 6 was the Antichrist. And Rev. 7 clearly has the Tribulation on-going. Yet Rev. 13 has him just then arising. What sequence is this?Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
You assume Revelation is chronological, but it's not. It is a series of dramas, going over the same ground but with different emphases/revelations.
Revelation is chronological. The symbolism changes from time to time. For example the man on the white horse in revelation six who arrives on the scene as a result of the lamb opening the first seal is none other than Antichrist.
But not necessarily chronologically.The events that are unveiled therein proceed through a series of seals, trumpets and vials.
I see you have no trouble symbolising when it suits.Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
Otherwise how do we explain Christ's birth in revelation 12?
Revelation 12 is not a description of Christ's birth. It is a description of the 144,000. The woman clothed with the sun and 12 stars is Israel and her man child is the 144,000. The woman represents a group of people and this group of people (12 tribes) gives birth to groups of people. If you read the last verse of chapter 12 you will notice that the serpent cannot overcome the woman (Israel as a whole) so he goes to war with her remnant the 144,000 who were sealed earlier in the book. Christ is not the remnant of Israel therefore the birth of this man child cannot be a description of the birth of Christ.
But the point is that the woman's child is not the remnant - He ascended to God: 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. The remnant were the rest of her children - the brethren of Christ, the Church on earth: 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
If you believe in a literal Millennium, surely you have to believe in a literal Temple and sacrificing priesthood, as per Ezekiel 40-48? Re-introduction of circumcision, a separate priesthood, animal sacrifices, holy pots and pans, holy days, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
This makes one ask if Zechariah and Ezekiel are meant to be understood symbolically or literally. It literally, then we have to explain how the Aaronic priesthood can be restored while the New Covenant stands.
Not with you on that. The fulfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles has nothing to do with the restoration of the Aaronic priesthood.
But Hebrews 7 tells us that a change of priesthood involves a change of covenant:
Hebrews 7:1 Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. 13 For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood. 15 And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest 16 who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life. 17 For He testifies:
“ You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”
18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, 19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is thebringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.
Sounds pretty world-wide to me: 7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
Your system also has the problem that the supposed Millennium ends with a world-wide rebellion and a further pouring out of God's wrath. Where is the feast that corresponds to that?
It's not a world wide rebellion at all.
So there are events after those pictured by the Feasts? Would it not make more sense that the Feasts cover the whole story - that Tabernacles is the end of all our travel, eternity with Him: Rev. 21:2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”This happens after the the feast of Tabernacles has been fulfilled. It is not the fulfillment of any other set time of God. After this Satan himself is cast into the lake of fire and God creates a new Heaven and a new Earth.0 -
You said Christians can't face God's wrath, and since you claim the Tribulation is His wrath they can't be in it. Yet here you acknowledge members of the Church in the Tribulation.
I explained this already. They were not part of the Church when time for the Rapture came. God is a God is set times as we have already pointed out. They did not accept the atonement of Christ before the Rapture and that's why they were not caught up. To be caught up in the rapture one must have God's spirit working in them and the only way you can get God's spirit working in you is when you are acting in faith the promises in His Word. Those who trust God to lead them through this life are the ones who are covered and will be the ones caught up as long as they stay connected in faith. When people turn to God after the Church is caught away they become part of the Church but not the rapture Church. They must endure the Great Tribulation but will be saved through it, again as long as they stay connected in faith. If you miss the Rapture it does not mean that you are without hope. There will still be a chance for people to repent during this time of tribulation and turn to God and be saved. In fact more people will be saved in this period than ever before.
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God," Revelation 7:9-11
"And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."Revelation 7:13-14
But because they previously rejected the atoning work of Christ they will have to endure God's wrath being poured out on this earth even though judicially they are viewed as in Christ by faith, so no ultimate condemnation will befall them. They will join the number of their brethren until that number is complete.
"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes (symbolizing their blamelessness before God, i.e. viewed as in Christ) were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, (until the set time of atonement should be fulfilled on earth) until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." Revelation 6:9-11You said the rider on the white horse in Rev. 6 was the Antichrist. And Rev. 7 clearly has the Tribulation on-going. Yet Rev. 13 has him just then arising. What sequence is this?
When Antichrist (the man) arrives on the scene he is just a normal earthly ruler but one that will come up with a peace plan for the middle east. Daniel tells us that he will make pact with Israel and break that pact in the middle of the week. The week is a week of years not days. So halfway through this week (3 and half years) of years Antichrist will break the pact and surround the holy city. It is at this time that the beast which was, and is not (in John the revelator's time) but will ascend from the abyss and posses this earthly ruler that he becomes the beast. He will literally be possessed by this demonic force similar to the likes of Alexander the great, Napoleon, Hitler et al were possessed.But not necessarily chronologically.
The book of revelation does proceed chronologically but as we have seen above there are certain parentheses which give a wider but more condensed overview of events. E.G. The saints which are seen under the altar in Revelation 6 are Old and New Testament saints who were slain because of the Word of God. Their number is not fulfilled until all who are to be slain for the Word of God during the Great Tribulation is complete. This doesn't take place until the end of the seven years tribulation period but John's sees them in Revelation 6. The book itself interprets this and needs no coercion from me. The book tells us that they are saints which have come out of the great tribulation but it also tells us that this tribulation does not end until Armageddon when Christ returns to destroy Antichrist and the false prophet. So we must move with the book if we are to interpret it correctly and also use other scriptures which talk about the same events from a different perspective in order to get a better picture of the whole revelation.I see you have no trouble symbolising when it suits. But the point is that the woman's child is not the remnant - He ascended to God: 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. The remnant were the rest of her children - the brethren of Christ, the Church on earth: 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
So you've no trouble accepting that the woman represents Israel and not Mary the mother of Jesus. I agree that the woman represents Israel and that her travailing in pain is the great tribulation period (i.e. Jacob's trouble) itself, and that the man child is the 144,000. When you read all of chapter 12 in that context then it makes much more sense that viewing the man child as Christ. If the man-child represents Christ then that means that Satan has already been cast out of heaven. But the book of Job makes it clear that Satan still has access to the heavenlies. And Paul in Ephesians 6 states specifically that we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against spiritual wickedness in the heavelies. If those wicked forces were still there in Paul's day but not there now, then when were they cast out? These are the kind of difficult obstacles one must get over if one is to maintain the position that the man child is Christ. It simply is not Christ and no confusion need to surround who it is because once you eliminate Christ as a candidate then who's left?If you believe in a literal Millennium, surely you have to believe in a literal Temple and sacrificing priesthood, as per Ezekiel 40-48? Re-introduction of circumcision, a separate priesthood, animal sacrifices, holy pots and pans, holy days, etc.
But Hebrews 7 tells us that a change of priesthood involves a change of covenant:
Hebrews 7:1 Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. 13 For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood. 15 And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest 16 who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life. 17 For He testifies:
“ You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”
18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, 19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is thebringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.
Yes I believe in a literal millennium and a literal ruling of Christ Himself on earth in that time, not a sacrificing priesthood of the order of the Levities. The millennial reign of Christ's kingdom on earth will be the fulfillment of the feast of Tabernacles, it will not incorporate the old yearly feast of Passover sacrifices. During the feast of Tabernacles celebrated in the Old Testament the tribes were to move out of their dwellings into temporary dwelling places called 'booths' (Sukkot). It was to remind them of their humble beginnings and how they used to live until God prospered them. It was to make them remember that it was God who delivered then and who provided for them. The world is to celebrate this feast for a thousand years in order to remind them that God alone is to be worshiped and He alone is the provided and sustainer of their wealth. There will be blessings on the nations who keep this feast yearly and curses on the ones which don't. Nothing to do with the Passover feast. That was already fulfilled in Christ and when the Jews recognize Him whom they have pierced they will cease celebrating this feast.Sounds pretty world-wide to me: 7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
Just because Satan sets out to deceive the nations throughout the world to try to assemble an army to surround Jerusalem that doesn't mean that he succeeds. Yes that is his intention but the only area where he can influence anyone is in the area of God and Magog, which is modern day Russia. So my point stands, this will not be a world wide rebellion.So there are events after those pictured by the Feasts? Would it not make more sense that the Feasts cover the whole story - that Tabernacles is the end of all our travel, eternity with Him: Rev. 21:2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
From Wiki:
"The feast of Tabernacles is a seven-day Jewish festival also known as Sukkot or the Feast of Booths. It is immediately followed by the eighth day which alludes to the redemption at the end of days and where shelter is no longer required as protection against physical elements. The feast of Tabernacles is one of the most important days in the Judaic tradition and is celebrated on the 15th of Tishrei in the Hebrew calendar."
What you quote happens after the thousand yeas reign when the feast of Tabernacles is fulfilled. After this there is a new beginning where God makes all things new. The number 8 is always symbolic of new beginnings. 8 souls surviving the flood and so on.
After Satan is cast into the lake of fire in chapter 20, God makes all things new in chapter 21. And Satan is only released after the thousand years reign or the fulfillment of the east of Tabernacles.
"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful." Revaltion 21:1-5
It's eternity from here-on-in after that. 0 -
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