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check out this awesome prophecy web site
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27-11-2009 5:19pm#1
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A basically Christian site. I would differ on several of their articles of faith - unlimited atonement, Pentecostalism, imminent return of Christ, for example. But a good source of Premillennial material. I'm Amillennial, but open to persuasion.i always like bible prophecy,i love checking out the daily updates on
jack van impe so i was glad to find this site,check out this web site
http://www.prophecynewswatch.com/?gclid=CNXmmO3NoZ4CFQdl4wodLUlCmg
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chozometroid wrote: »...but once I found out he was a pretribulationist, I stopped paying him any attention.
I've looked at his site and the fact that he seems to think that the antichrist will come from Europe speaks volumes. Anyway why stop paying him any attention based on the fact that he seems to be pre-tribulationist? There is more scriptural support for that position than there is for the mid or post tribulation position. I can go through it with you if you like.I'm Amillennial, but open to persuasion.
Hey Wolfy, you said before that if you could be convinced that the Tribulation period was indeed God's wrath being poured out on sin then you would hold to the view that Rapture must take place before the Tribulation. Do you still stand by that? If I show you a proof verse for this will you stand by it? 0 -
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Sure will!Soul Winner wrote: »Hey Wolfy, you said before that if you could be convinced that the Tribulation period was indeed God's wrath being poured out on sin then you would hold to the view that Rapture must take place before the Tribulation. Do you still stand by that? If I show you a proof verse for this will you stand by it?0 -
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You confuse the Tribulation with the Wrath of God.
My point is that the Tribulation 'The Great Tribulation' is the wrath of God. What is described in Revelation is Tribulation that comes from God, that's why this Tribulation is always distinguish between other types of tribulation. There are many kinds of tribulation in the world. The word 'tribulation' simply means 'trouble'. It comes form a word in the Greek (Tribulum) which was the rod that beat the wheat from the chaff. Jesus said to His disciples: In this world ye will have tribulation, but it is tribulation that come from the world, the flesh and the devil. The Tribulation The Great Tribulation however is tribulation that comes from God, and the book of Revelation focuses in on that Tribulation.Note that the saints are present for the events ushered in by seals 1-6, but on the 7th everything is stopped until they are sealed against the Wrath of the Lamb.
The 144,000 are saints but they are not the Church. The word saint (Hagios) in the Greek simple means 'committed ones', the same word translates our word for Holy. Something that is given over to the use of the deity is what makes it holy. I will try to explain below more about why the particular saints described above are not the Church which goes in the Rapture.Chapter 7 immediately precedes the opening of the 7th seal, which ushers in the wrath of the Lamb. So before that wrath the saints are listed as having come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. The Tribulation precedes the Wrath. The saints suffer Tribulation, but not Wrath.
Hhhhmm?? The Great Tribulation is not limited to the seven seals, there are also seven trumpets and seven vials which come after the seven seals. The saints under the altar are simply people who have become saints during the time of the great tribulation. And that period includes teh vials and trumpets. They are part of the Church as a whole but they are not part of the pre Raptured Church.Revelation is symbolic of course, but we can match this part with the plain statements on the Last Day that are given in the gospels and epistles:
The beginning of sorrows:
Matthew 24:6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Cp. with seals 1-4.
What is described in the verse above are things which precede the main event. The beginning of sorrows can be alternately translated as pains in childbirth which as we know precede the actual birth. Likewise the events described are simply labor pains which precede the main birth event itself.The great tribulation:
Matthew 24:9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Again this is tribulation that comes from the world on the Church. It has nothing to do with the Tribulation that comes from God on the earth.Cp. with the 5th seal and Revelation 7:13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Again this is not the Church. The saints, i.e. the committed ones, who come out of the great tribulation are none other than the people who, after the Rapture of the Church has taken place, come to see that what the Church has been teaching all along was in fact true and was (in their seeing) just testified to by the Rapture event itself. Think about it for a second. The Rapture is the one event that convinces many to turn to God in faith but because they did not go in the Rapture they must now live through this tribulation period and, in most cases, pay with their lives for their new faith. They are a different set of saints is my point.The signs of the end, the return of Christ and the rapture:
Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Cp. with the 6th seal.
The clouds of glory that He is coming on are none other than the Church, they are with Him when He comes. They are the same as the great cloud of witnesses who have gone before us as described in the book of Hebrews.
"These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect. Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us." Hebrews 11:39-40 and Hebrews 12:1
You only need read where the elect are gathered from in the verse you quoted above to know that they are not just from the earth. They are gathered from one end of heaven to the other, not just from the earth. I highlighted it in red for you.The wrath of the Lamb:
1 Thessalonians 5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
This coming of the Lord is when He returns to put down antichrsit and the false prophet at Armageddon. From the the unbelieving world's point of view this coming is like a thief in the night, which is why Paul tells the Thessalonians that they have no need that he should write to them about it, they already know it will be like a thief in the night, but it can't be like that to them by virtue of the fact that they already know how it will be. Only those not on guard watching their house will be surprised by a burglar, but for those watching for the signs they can see and hear and hence be ready for when he arrives.
2 Thessalonians 1:6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
I don't see how these verses supports the idea that the Church will go through the great tribulation.
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.Cp. the 7th seal
As already said, the thief in the night phrase applies to those who are not watching. We are told to watch and wait for His coming (which is what we are doing) so we can know when it is even at the door. We can know when the time is near for His second coming because He told us that we can. That's why He said certain things must come to pass first and that we would be able to see them coming to pass, i.e. earthquakes, famines, wars etc.. these things have increased a hundred fold in the last hundred years, so the time for His wrath to be poured out is soon but the time is still not yet, but when it does come time for His wrath to be poured out He takes His Church home first.
The first of the six seals to be opened releases Antichrist. The man on a white horse (imitating Christ) with a bow but no arrow. He comes in with a peace plan for the middle east region and will be worshiped by the world for his genius. Daniel 11:21-45 speaks of this very same individual. He will come in peaceably. Antichrist simply means substitute Christ or substitute deliverer. The world will think that he is a God. But Paul speaks of a force which holds this lawless one back from being revealed, and only when it is taken out of the way can this he be revealed to the world.
"Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming." II Thessalonians 2:5-8
This one is none other than the Church. It is not the holy spirit because the holy spirit is still working during this time of trouble. It is not the 144,000 because they are still here too. I'm telling ye when you put all the clues in scripture together they all point to a pre-tribulation rapture.
I could give you even more evidence.
The last feast that was fulfilled and is still being fulfilled is the feast of Pentecost. Pentecost means fifty and is the number for the harvest. The next feast after this to be fulfilled is the feast of Trumpets. It is at the last Trump when the Rapture takes place:
"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed —in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality." I Corinthians 15:51-53
"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." I Thessalonians 4:16-17
John is caught up in Revelation 4 and shown things which must take place after this. There is then a parenthesis in Revelation 5 and from Revelation 6 on wards John is shown what must take place after this? After what? In chapter 1 John is told to write the things which he has seen. He does this in chapter 1. And to write the things which are. He does this in chapters 2 and 3, where the seven churches are addressed and dealt with. Then in chapter 4 John is called up hither into heaven and shown what must take place after this, i.e. the time of the churches. I believe John is but a type of the Church in chapter 4 called up to heaven. The Church is not mentioned again in Revelation until we see her adorned as a bride coming out of heaven.
"After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." Revelation 4:1
The Come up here is the Rapture and it happens before the seals are opened.
Nowhere else in scripture is the feast of Trumpets shown to be fulfilled. And it must be fulfilled like all the other feast before it and after it. After the feast of Trumpets there is the feast of Atonement. Atonement means affliction of soul. God will afflict this earth fulfilling this feast. The church is not subject to this affliction because Christ was afflicted for us already. Those who accept the affliction that Christ suffered are the true Church of God. Those who do not accept it will suffer it first hand from God when the time comes.
"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." Romans 8:1
"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him." I Thessalonians 5:9-10
So you see, when you put all the pieces together from scripture, i.e. Moses striking the Rock twice with the rod of judgment and God baring him from entering the promised land in order to teach the lesson that Christ (which is what Paul called this Rock) is only struck once with the rod of judgment, the fulfilling of all the feasts in their time, the talking out of the way of a force which hinders Antichrist from being revealed and so on, they all point to a pre-tribulation Rapture.
Like I said when I hear a stronger case for other positions I will take stock
I'm a pre-tribber and I am confident in the hope that I will not be around when all this crap hits the fan. I respect your position though. At least you point to scripture to back up you position.0 -
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Soul Winner said:
So you say - but you also say that the saints could not undergo it as Christ has already borne their punishment. Yet we have a great multitude of them described as having come out of the great tribulation. You acknowledge them as part of the Church as a whole - for whom Christ died and bore the wrath that was their due - but you them claim they are not part of the pre Raptured Church. So what, if that were so? Your case is the Church cannot endure the Great Tribulation for that would be like Christ being punished twice. You can't have it both ways.Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
You confuse the Tribulation with the Wrath of God.
My point is that the Tribulation 'The Great Tribulation' is the wrath of God. What is described in Revelation is Tribulation that comes from God, that's why this Tribulation is always distinguish between other types of tribulation. There are many kinds of tribulation in the world. The word 'tribulation' simply means 'trouble'. It comes form a word in the Greek (Tribulum) which was the rod that beat the wheat from the chaff. Jesus said to His disciples: In this world ye will have tribulation, but it is tribulation that come from the world, the flesh and the devil. The Tribulation The Great Tribulation however is tribulation that comes from God, and the book of Revelation focuses in on that Tribulation.
The word is used but it is also further defined by having washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb That is the description of Christian to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
Note that the saints are present for the events ushered in by seals 1-6, but on the 7th everything is stopped until they are sealed against the Wrath of the Lamb.
The 144,000 are saints but they are not the Church. The word saint (Hagios) in the Greek simple means 'committed ones', the same word translates our word for Holy. Something that is given over to the use of the deity is what makes it holy. I will try to explain below more about why the particular saints described above are not the Church which goes in the Rapture.
As I said earlier, you admit they are Christians, but you think because they are from a later time they can be punished by God???Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
Chapter 7 immediately precedes the opening of the 7th seal, which ushers in the wrath of the Lamb. So before that wrath the saints are listed as having come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. The Tribulation precedes the Wrath. The saints suffer Tribulation, but not Wrath.
Hhhhmm?? The Great Tribulation is not limited to the seven seals, there are also seven trumpets and seven vials which come after the seven seals. The saints under the altar are simply people who have become saints during the time of the great tribulation. And that period includes teh vials and trumpets. They are part of the Church as a whole but they are not part of the pre Raptured Church.
Indeed so.Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
Revelation is symbolic of course, but we can match this part with the plain statements on the Last Day that are given in the gospels and epistles:
The beginning of sorrows:
Matthew 24:6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Cp. with seals 1-4.
What is described in the verse above are things which precede the main event. The beginning of sorrows can be alternately translated as pains in childbirth which as we know precede the actual birth. Likewise the events described are simply labor pains which precede the main birth event itself.
So you agree that what happens after the gospel is preached to all nations and after the church has endured tribulation is what the Bible calls 'the end'? What happens at this 'end'? V27 tells us: For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. The Second Coming.Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
The great tribulation:
Matthew 24:9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Again this is tribulation that comes from the world on the Church. It has nothing to do with the Tribulation that comes from God on the earth.
You said before they were part of the Church. If the church can't go through the Tribulation, how can they?Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
Cp. with the 5th seal and Revelation 7:13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Again this is not the Church. The saints, i.e. the committed ones, who come out of the great tribulation are none other than the people who, after the Rapture of the Church has taken place, come to see that what the Church has been teaching all along was in fact true and was (in their seeing) just testified to by the Rapture event itself. Think about it for a second. The Rapture is the one event that convinces many to turn to God in faith but because they did not go in the Rapture they must now live through this tribulation period and, in most cases, pay with their lives for their new faith. They are a different set of saints is my point.
Where do we read in the Bible that the Rapture is the great event that persuades unbelievers to repent and believe? Seems to me this second-chance salvation is a real Rapture fiction.
The expression, one end of heaven refers not to the spiritual heaven, but to the temporal one. It is used in the sense of 'from the rising of the sun to its going down':Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
The signs of the end, the return of Christ and the rapture:
Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Cp. with the 6th seal.
The clouds of glory that He is coming on are none other than the Church, they are with Him when He comes. They are the same as the great cloud of witnesses who have gone before us as described in the book of Hebrews.
"These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect. Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us." Hebrews 11:39-40 and Hebrews 12:1
You only need read where the elect are gathered from in the verse you quoted above to know that they are not just from the earth. They are gathered from one end of heaven to the other, not just from the earth. I highlighted it in red for you.
Psalm 19:4 Their line has gone out through all the earth,
And their words to the end of the world.
In them He has set a tabernacle for the sun,
5 Which is like a bridegroom coming out of his chamber,
And rejoices like a strong man to run its race.
6 Its rising is from one end of heaven,
And its circuit to the other end;
And there is nothing hidden from its heat.
The gathering of the Church is on from all the earth. So the clouds of glory need not be the Church from heaven. But even if it were, that does not mean all the church were in heaven before Christ comes in glory. 2 Thess.1 has Christ destroying the wicked and rescuing the Christians on that Day.
Seems to me a simple count of 7 years from the PreTrib Rapture would not be too difficult for any that are left - especially if the non-Church Church is preaching and seeing millions saved.Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
The wrath of the Lamb:
1 Thessalonians 5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
This coming of the Lord is when He returns to put down antichrsit and the false prophet at Armageddon. From the the unbelieving world's point of view this coming is like a thief in the night, which is why Paul tells the Thessalonians that they have no need that he should write to them about it, they already know it will be like a thief in the night, but it can't be like that to them by virtue of the fact that they already know how it will be. Only those not on guard watching their house will be surprised by a burglar, but for those watching for the signs they can see and hear and hence be ready for when he arrives.
But I agree - this is when Christ returns to put down Antichrist. It is also when He rescues the Church, as Paul points out in 2 Thess. 1.
It shows that we - 'you' - are still on earth, being persecuted, when Christ returns 'with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.' No room for a Great Tribulation after that.Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
2 Thessalonians 1:6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
I don't see how these verses supports the idea that the Church will go through the great tribulation.
I agree entirely.Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
Cp. the 7th seal
As already said, the thief in the night phrase applies to those who are not watching. We are told to watch and wait for His coming (which is what we are doing) so we can know when it is even at the door. We can know when the time is near for His second coming because He told us that we can. That's why He said certain things must come to pass first and that we would be able to see them coming to pass, i.e. earthquakes, famines, wars etc.. these things have increased a hundred fold in the last hundred years, so the time for His wrath to be poured out is soon but the time is still not yet, but when it does come time for His wrath to be poured out He takes His Church home first.
That it is the Church is speculation, not proof. Many Pre-Tribbers assert it is the Spirit. But why not the Civil Power? Or the restraint of the Spirit, rather than His presence in the Church? Regardless, you miss the key point: the 1st seal may introduce Antichrist, but the 6th seal introduces the Wrath of the Lamb. All Antichrist has done ends there.The first of the six seals to be opened releases Antichrist. The man on a white horse (imitating Christ) with a bow but no arrow. He comes in with a peace plan for the middle east region and will be worshiped by the world for his genius. Daniel 11:21-45 speaks of this very same individual. He will come in peaceably. Antichrist simply means substitute Christ or substitute deliverer. The world will think that he is a God. But Paul speaks of a force which holds this lawless one back from being revealed, and only when it is taken out of the way can this he be revealed to the world.
"Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming." II Thessalonians 2:5-8
This one is none other than the Church. It is not the holy spirit because the holy spirit is still working during this time of trouble. It is not the 144,000 because they are still here too.
Not that I can see.I'm telling ye when you put all the clues in scripture together they all point to a pre-tribulation rapture.
Or after the present for John - ie, he is now being shown events to come, future to him, not necessarily future to the Rapture.I could give you even more evidence.
The last feast that was fulfilled and is still being fulfilled is the feast of Pentecost. Pentecost means fifty and is the number for the harvest. The next feast after this to be fulfilled is the feast of Trumpets. It is at the last Trump when the Rapture takes place:
"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed —in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality." I Corinthians 15:51-53
"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." I Thessalonians 4:16-17
John is caught up in Revelation 4 and shown things which must take place after this. There is then a parenthesis in Revelation 5 and from Revelation 6 on wards John is shown what must take place after this? After what? In chapter 1 John is told to write the things which he has seen. He does this in chapter 1. And to write the things which are. He does this in chapters 2 and 3, where the seven churches are addressed and dealt with. Then in chapter 4 John is called up hither into heaven and shown what must take place after this, i.e. the time of the churches.
Again, speculation without proof.I believe John is but a type of the Church in chapter 4 called up to heaven.
That supposes the saints mentioned in all the chapters between are not the Church. You can't prove the case by assuming it to start with.The Church is not mentioned again in Revelation until we see her adorned as a bride coming out of heaven.
Pure speculation."After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." Revelation 4:1
The Come up here is the Rapture and it happens before the seals are opened.
That is the same as non-Pre-Tribbers believe. Rapture->Wrath. It is just that we believe Wrath does not include millions of people being saved. It is flaming fire on all who have not believed on Christ.Nowhere else in scripture is the feast of Trumpets shown to be fulfilled. And it must be fulfilled like all the other feast before it and after it. After the feast of Trumpets there is the feast of Atonement. Atonement means affliction of soul. God will afflict this earth fulfilling this feast. The church is not subject to this affliction because Christ was afflicted for us already. Those who accept the affliction that Christ suffered are the true Church of God. Those who do not accept it will suffer it first hand from God when the time comes.
No, they all point to Rapture followed by Wrath - the Rapture of all who are saved, and Wrath on all who are not."Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." Romans 8:1
"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him." I Thessalonians 5:9-10
So you see, when you put all the pieces together from scripture, i.e. Moses striking the Rock twice with the rod of judgment and God baring him from entering the promised land in order to teach the lesson that Christ (which is what Paul called this Rock) is only struck once with the rod of judgment, the fulfilling of all the feasts in their time, the talking out of the way of a force which hinders Antichrist from being revealed and so on, they all point to a pre-tribulation Rapture.
Thank you, and I do likewise for you. None of us know it all as we should, and our discussions should lead us forward in our knowledge of the truth.Like I said when I hear a stronger case for other positions I will take stock
I'm a pre-tribber and I am confident in the hope that I will not be around when all this crap hits the fan. I respect your position though. At least you point to scripture to back up you position.0 -
Soul Winner said:
So you say - but you also say that the saints could not undergo it as Christ has already borne their punishment. Yet we have a great multitude of them described as having come out of the great tribulation. You acknowledge them as part of the Church as a whole - for whom Christ died and bore the wrath that was their due - but you them claim they are not part of the pre Raptured Church. So what, if that were so? Your case is the Church cannot endure the Great Tribulation for that would be like Christ being punished twice. You can't have it both ways.
The word is used but it is also further defined by having washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb That is the description of Christian to me.
As I said earlier, you admit they are Christians, but you think because they are from a later time they can be punished by God???
Indeed so.
So you agree that what happens after the gospel is preached to all nations and after the church has endured tribulation is what the Bible calls 'the end'? What happens at this 'end'? V27 tells us: For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. The Second Coming.
You said before they were part of the Church. If the church can't go through the Tribulation, how can they?
Where do we read in the Bible that the Rapture is the great event that persuades unbelievers to repent and believe? Seems to me this second-chance salvation is a real Rapture fiction.
The expression, one end of heaven refers not to the spiritual heaven, but to the temporal one. It is used in the sense of 'from the rising of the sun to its going down':
Psalm 19:4 Their line has gone out through all the earth,
And their words to the end of the world.
In them He has set a tabernacle for the sun,
5 Which is like a bridegroom coming out of his chamber,
And rejoices like a strong man to run its race.
6 Its rising is from one end of heaven,
And its circuit to the other end;
And there is nothing hidden from its heat.
The gathering of the Church is on from all the earth. So the clouds of glory need not be the Church from heaven. But even if it were, that does not mean all the church were in heaven before Christ comes in glory. 2 Thess.1 has Christ destroying the wicked and rescuing the Christians on that Day.
Seems to me a simple count of 7 years from the PreTrib Rapture would not be too difficult for any that are left - especially if the non-Church Church is preaching and seeing millions saved.
But I agree - this is when Christ returns to put down Antichrist. It is also when He rescues the Church, as Paul points out in 2 Thess. 1.
It shows that we - 'you' - are still on earth, being persecuted, when Christ returns 'with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.' No room for a Great Tribulation after that.
I agree entirely.
That it is the Church is speculation, not proof. Many Pre-Tribbers assert it is the Spirit. But why not the Civil Power? Or the restraint of the Spirit, rather than His presence in the Church? Regardless, you miss the key point: the 1st seal may introduce Antichrist, but the 6th seal introduces the Wrath of the Lamb. All Antichrist has done ends there.
Not that I can see.
Or after the present for John - ie, he is now being shown events to come, future to him, not necessarily future to the Rapture.
Again, speculation without proof.
That supposes the saints mentioned in all the chapters between are not the Church. You can't prove the case by assuming it to start with.
Pure speculation.
That is the same as non-Pre-Tribbers believe. Rapture->Wrath. It is just that we believe Wrath does not include millions of people being saved. It is flaming fire on all who have not believed on Christ.
No, they all point to Rapture followed by Wrath - the Rapture of all who are saved, and Wrath on all who are not.
Thank you, and I do likewise for you. None of us know it all as we should, and our discussions should lead us forward in our knowledge of the truth.
OK I'll try to summarize without replying to each point individually.
Numbers 23 outlines all the feast days of the Lord. They are as follows:- The Sabbath
- Passover
- Unleavened Bread
- First Fruits
- Pentecost
- Trumpets
- Atonement
- Tabernacles
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." Colossians 2:16-17
We know Christ fulfilled 1 to 5 of these. What's left are Trumpets, Atonement and Tabernacles. The word 'Feast' simply means 'Set times of the Lord'. There is a set-time for these feasts to be fulfilled.
Sabbath. So how did Christ fulfill the Sabbath? He came to do what only He could do. keep the law and live the perfect life, and having lived that perfect life, lay that perfect life down. Until he did this there was one day of the week that was to be kept holy. In other words they were to rest from the works. We rest from our works when we trust in His work. What He did for us is based in His eternal nature. It never changes. It can be availed of at all times.
"There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience." Hebrews 4:9-11
We rest from our works when we act in faith and trust in the work of Christ. That is what keeping the Sabbath really means. Faithing is Sabbathing or sabbath keeping and this Feast has been fulfilled in Christ.
Passover. Every Christian knows that Christ fulfilled the OT testament type of the Passover Lamb . In the OT the passover feast was to commemorate the deliverance from Egypt of God's people by the hand of Moses and the power of God. The last plague to fall on Egypt was death to the first born. The way to escape this death was kill a lamb and put it's blood on on the door and the lintel. When the death angel came to those houses it passed over them, hence where the feast gets its name. The placing of the blood of the lamb on the door was an act of faith in the promise that those who do so would be spared death. This was but a type of what Christ would ultimately do for the whole world. Those who accept this and lay hold of it in faith will be spared eternal death.
Unleavened Bread. This feast started on the day after Passover and went on for a full week. When Christ was laid in His tomb, He remained there for 3 days and 3 nights fulfilling the hiding away of the 'afikomen'.
From Yeshuahamashiach.com
"During the Passover Seder, there is a bag called the matzatosh which contains three pieces of matzot. The middle
piece of matzot is removed, broken, wrapped in linen, and buried. This piece of matzah is the afikomen. During this part of the
service, the afikomen was removed from sight (this represented Yeshua being buried) and it remained hidden until later in the
service. Yeshua is the bread that was buried because He is the Bread of Life who came down from Heaven (John [Yochanan]
6:35). Yeshua was removed from between the two thieves who were crucified with Him (Matthew [Mattityahu] 27:38), wrapped in
linen, and buried in the earth (Matthew 27:59-60)."
So like Passover Christ fulfilled the feast of Unleavened Bread.
Firstfruits. Christ also fulfilled Firstfruits.
The Feast of Firstfruits always fell on the first day of the week within the feast of Unleavened Bread. It was a feast within a feast. If Passover started on, say, a Friday then Unleavened Bread started on the Saturday which would mean that Firstfruits would fall on the following Sunday - one day hence. If Passover started on say a Wednesday then Unleavened Bread started on the Thursday which would mean that Firstfruits would fall on the following Sunday also - 3 days hence. No matter when Passover or Unleavened bread fell, Firstfruits would always fall on the next first day of the week.
We know from scripture that Christ rose on the first day of the week.
"After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look." Matthew 28:1
So if Christ was crucified on Passover and in the tomb for three days and three nights to rise on the first day in that same week, then He must have risen on the feast of Firstfruits, fulfilling that feast or set-time of the Lord.
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." Romans 8:29
Pentecost. Pentecost means fifty and is the number for the harvest. Christ fulfilled this set-time also:
"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." Acts 2:1-4
It is at this point that the harvest of the Church begins. Peter preaches the first message of the Church in the proceeding verses.
The next three feast to be fulfilled are:
Trumpets
Atonement
Tabernacles
The feast (or properly translated Set Time of the Lord) of Trumpets has yet to be fulfilled. I believe that the last trumpet refered to by Paul to the Corinthians is the fulfilling of this feast which is the Rapture of the Church. On the Feast of Trumpets there were two silver (symbolic of redemption throughout scripture) trumpets were blown all day. I believe that the first of these trumpets was fulfilled in Christ's first advent and that the second will be fulfilled when He comes to catch away His Church. This feast falls in late September which is where scripture places the birth of Christ.
"...in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." 1 Corinthians 15:52
"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet callof God, and the dead in Christ will rise first." 1 Thessalonians 4:16
Atonement. After the feast of Trumpets comes the feast of Atonement. Atonement means affliction of soul. Christ has already fulfilled this feast for those who accept it the affliction that He bore on their behalf. The ones who accept the atoning work of Christ will not taste of the the wrath of God which will be poured out on the world. I take your point that my conclusion that the Rapture event will be the event which will cause people (who had previously not accepted the atoning work of Christ) to turn to Christ in the time of tribulation is speculative, but if this is how events are to work out then you can't rule it out either. If I were convinced that people who had previously being telling me this stuff which I didn't believe, who then suddenly vanish off the planet, then I'd start taken what they said seriously, especially if I bumped into other people who had similar experiences. People who turn to Christ in this time of tribulation are seen as a separate set of saints than those of the Church. That is why (in my opinion) there are told to wait until the number of their brethren is completed. The souls under the alter in Revelation 6 are the souls of the martyrs who give their lives during this time of great tribulation. If they are the church then that means that every person in the church that ever lived died a martyr, which is not true.
"When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?"Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed." Revelation 6:9-11
This group of saints are not the Church. Not all Christians are martyrs who have been slain for the Word of God. They are but the first of those who have been killed during this time of great tribulation.
"And I saw what looked like a sea of glass mixed with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and over the number of his name." Revelation 15:2
In Revelation 4:6 this sea of glass is clear i.e nobody on it yet.
"Also before the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal." Revelation 4:6
Your point that Antichrist comes and goes in Revelation 6 is wrong. We get our first glimpse of him in Revelation 6 but that is not the end of it.
He's still around in Revelation 19
"Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army." Revelation 19:19
The rider on the white horse being Christ who arrives on the scene in Revelation 19:11.
Tabernacles. Zechariah 14 makes it very clear how this feast will be fulfilled.
"And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles." Zechariah 14:16-19
This will be done every year for a thousand years. During the feast of tabernacles all the tribes were to move out of their houses into temporary structures for one week in order to remember how God delivered them form the land of Egypt. In this week they offered 203 offerings to God. God is going to make all the nations of the world keep this feast throughout the millennium after Armageddon. Those who not keep it will be cursed with a plague.
If the seven year great tribulation is God's wrath being poured on those who reject Christ and is the fulfillment of the feast of Atonement, then Rapture, if it is the fulfillment of the feast of Trumpets, (as I believe it is) must take place before the pouring out of wrath.
God was spot on with all the other feasts and will be spot on with all the rest. The feast of Trumpets is next. Rapture!
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Soul Winner said:
I can't see any problem with the above.OK I'll try to summarize without replying to each point individually.
Numbers 23 outlines all the feast days of the Lord. They are as follows:
The Sabbath
Passover
Unleavened Bread
First Fruits
Pentecost
Trumpets
Atonement
Tabernacles
Paul calls these feast days shadows of things to come but the substance which casts the shadow is Christ:
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." Colossians 2:16-17
We know Christ fulfilled 1 to 5 of these. What's left are Trumpets, Atonement and Tabernacles. The word 'Feast' simply means 'Set times of the Lord'. There is a set-time for these feasts to be fulfilled.
Sabbath. So how did Christ fulfill the Sabbath? He came to do what only He could do. keep the law and live the perfect life, and having lived that perfect life, lay that perfect life down. Until he did this there was one day of the week that was to be kept holy. In other words they were to rest from the works. We rest from our works when we trust in His work. What He did for us is based in His eternal nature. It never changes. It can be availed of at all times.
"There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience." Hebrews 4:9-11
We rest from our works when we act in faith and trust in the work of Christ. That is what keeping the Sabbath really means. Faithing is Sabbathing or sabbath keeping and this Feast has been fulfilled in Christ.
Passover. Every Christian knows that Christ fulfilled the OT testament type of the Passover Lamb . In the OT the passover feast was to commemorate the deliverance from Egypt of God's people by the hand of Moses and the power of God. The last plague to fall on Egypt was death to the first born. The way to escape this death was kill a lamb and put it's blood on on the door and the lintel. When the death angel came to those houses it passed over them, hence where the feast gets its name. The placing of the blood of the lamb on the door was an act of faith in the promise that those who do so would be spared death. This was but a type of what Christ would ultimately do for the whole world. Those who accept this and lay hold of it in faith will be spared eternal death.
Unleavened Bread. This feast started on the day after Passover and went on for a full week. When Christ was laid in His tomb, He remained there for 3 days and 3 nights fulfilling the hiding away of the 'afikomen'.
From Yeshuahamashiach.com
"During the Passover Seder, there is a bag called the matzatosh which contains three pieces of matzot. The middle
piece of matzot is removed, broken, wrapped in linen, and buried. This piece of matzah is the afikomen. During this part of the
service, the afikomen was removed from sight (this represented Yeshua being buried) and it remained hidden until later in the
service. Yeshua is the bread that was buried because He is the Bread of Life who came down from Heaven (John [Yochanan]
6:35). Yeshua was removed from between the two thieves who were crucified with Him (Matthew [Mattityahu] 27:38), wrapped in
linen, and buried in the earth (Matthew 27:59-60)."
So like Passover Christ fulfilled the feast of Unleavened Bread.
Firstfruits. Christ also fulfilled Firstfruits.
The Feast of Firstfruits always fell on the first day of the week within the feast of Unleavened Bread. It was a feast within a feast. If Passover started on, say, a Friday then Unleavened Bread started on the Saturday which would mean that Firstfruits would fall on the following Sunday - one day hence. If Passover started on say a Wednesday then Unleavened Bread started on the Thursday which would mean that Firstfruits would fall on the following Sunday also - 3 days hence. No matter when Passover or Unleavened bread fell, Firstfruits would always fall on the next first day of the week.
We know from scripture that Christ rose on the first day of the week.
"After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look." Matthew 28:1
So if Christ was crucified on Passover and in the tomb for three days and three nights to rise on the first day in that same week, then He must have risen on the feast of Firstfruits, fulfilling that feast or set-time of the Lord.
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." Romans 8:29
Pentecost. Pentecost means fifty and is the number for the harvest. Christ fulfilled this set-time also:
"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." Acts 2:1-4
It is at this point that the harvest of the Church begins. Peter preaches the first message of the Church in the proceeding verses.
The next three feast to be fulfilled are:
Trumpets
Atonement
Tabernacles
No problem with this, either.The feast (or properly translated Set Time of the Lord) of Trumpets has yet to be fulfilled. I believe that the last trumpet refered to by Paul to the Corinthians is the fulfilling of this feast which is the Rapture of the Church. On the Feast of Trumpets there were two silver (symbolic of redemption throughout scripture) trumpets were blown all day. I believe that the first of these trumpets was fulfilled in Christ's first advent and that the second will be fulfilled when He comes to catch away His Church. This feast falls in late September which is where scripture places the birth of Christ.
"...in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." 1 Corinthians 15:52
"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet callof God, and the dead in Christ will rise first." 1 Thessalonians 4:16
Agreed.Atonement. After the feast of Trumpets comes the feast of Atonement. Atonement means affliction of soul. Christ has already fulfilled this feast for those who accept it the affliction that He bore on their behalf. The ones who accept the atoning work of Christ will not taste of the the wrath of God which will be poured out on the world.
We can reject this on the basis even of your own principle: those whom Christ died for can not be the objects of His wrath. But you admit you have such people in the Tribulation period. If the Tribulation is His wrath, then you contradict yourself.I take your point that my conclusion that the Rapture event will be the event which will cause people (who had previously not accepted the atoning work of Christ) to turn to Christ in the time of tribulation is speculative, but if this is how events are to work out then you can't rule it out either. If I were convinced that people who had previously being telling me this stuff which I didn't believe, who then suddenly vanish off the planet, then I'd start taken what they said seriously, especially if I bumped into other people who had similar experiences.
No one said they are the whole Church.People who turn to Christ in this time of tribulation are seen as a separate set of saints than those of the Church. That is why (in my opinion) there are told to wait until the number of their brethren is completed. The souls under the alter in Revelation 6 are the souls of the martyrs who give their lives during this time of great tribulation. If they are the church then that means that every person in the church that ever lived died a martyr, which is not true. "When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?"Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed." Revelation 6:9-11
This group of saints are not the Church. Not all Christians are martyrs who have been slain for the Word of God. They are but the first of those who have been killed during this time of great tribulation.
Even if they were on it, the sea could still be described as clear as crystal - but they are said to be beside the sea."And I saw what looked like a sea of glass mixed with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and over the number of his name." Revelation 15:2
In Revelation 4:6 this sea of glass is clear i.e nobody on it yet.
"Also before the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal." Revelation 4:6
You assume Revelation is chronological, but it's not. It is a series of dramas, going over the same ground but with different emphases/revelations. Otherwise how do we explain Christ's birth in revelation 12?Your point that Antichrist comes and goes in Revelation 6 is wrong. We get our first glimpse of him in Revelation 6 but that is not the end of it.
He's still around in Revelation 19
"Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army." Revelation 19:19
The rider on the white horse being Christ who arrives on the scene in Revelation 19:11.
This makes one ask if Zechariah and Ezekiel are meant to be understood symbolically or literally. It literally, then we have to explain how the Aaronic priesthood can be restored while the New Covenant stands.Tabernacles. Zechariah 14 makes it very clear how this feast will be fulfilled.
"And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles." Zechariah 14:16-19
This will be done every year for a thousand years. During the feast of tabernacles all the tribes were to move out of their houses into temporary structures for one week in order to remember how God delivered them form the land of Egypt. In this week they offered 203 offerings to God. God is going to make all the nations of the world keep this feast throughout the millennium after Armageddon. Those who not keep it will be cursed with a plague.
If the seven year great tribulation is God's wrath being poured on those who reject Christ and is the fulfillment of the feast of Atonement, then Rapture, if it is the fulfillment of the feast of Trumpets, (as I believe it is) must take place before the pouring out of wrath.
The simple way to see the fulfilment of the last three feasts: Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles = Rapture, Wrath and Eternity.
Your system also has the problem that the supposed Millennium ends with a world-wide rebellion and a further pouring out of God's wrath. Where is the feast that corresponds to that?
Amen! Just have to be prepared to face the Tribulation first.God was spot on with all the other feasts and will be spot on with all the rest. The feast of Trumpets is next. Rapture! 0 -
We can reject this on the basis even of your own principle: those whom Christ died for can not be the objects of His wrath. But you admit you have such people in the Tribulation period. If the Tribulation is His wrath, then you contradict yourself.
The coming of the wrath of God is what makes them turn to God and His Christ and therefore become part of His church, but because this happens after the Rapture of the Church they must needs endure this Tribulation and most likely give their lives for their faith because up until this point they had not accepted the atoning work of Christ. I can't see the contradiction at all.You assume Revelation is chronological, but it's not. It is a series of dramas, going over the same ground but with different emphases/revelations.
Revelation is chronological. The events that are unveiled therein proceed through a series of seals, trumpets and vials. The symbolism changes from time to time. For example the man on the white horse in revelation six who arrives on the scene as a result of the lamb opening the first seal is none other than Antichrist. Antichrist simply means substitute Christ. Satan is always the great imitator. Antichrist looks like Christ in Revelation 19 where Christ comes on a white horse. And the bow with no arrow is symbolic of his peaceful intentions which is consistent with the picture Daniel gives of him in Daniel 11:21:
"And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries."
Antichrist comes in looking like Christ and with a peace plan for the middle east region that everyone including the nation Israel will buy into. From Revelation 6 on wards what is revealed is God's wrath being poured out on sin culminating in the millennial kingdom being set up after Armageddon and the destruction of this so called man of peace (symbolised as a beast by this time) and his false prophet.Otherwise how do we explain Christ's birth in revelation 12?
Revelation 12 is not a description of Christ's birth. It is a description of the 144,000. The woman clothed with the sun and 12 stars is Israel and her man child is the 144,000. The woman represents a group of people and this group of people (12 tribes) gives birth to groups of people. If you read the last verse of chapter 12 you will notice that the serpent cannot overcome the woman (Israel as a whole) so he goes to war with her remnant the 144,000 who were sealed earlier in the book. Christ is not the remnant of Israel therefore the birth of this man child cannot be a description of the birth of Christ.
"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Revelation 12:17
The man child is not Christ, it is a remnant of Israel which have the testimony of Christ, which are the 144,000.This makes one ask if Zechariah and Ezekiel are meant to be understood symbolically or literally. It literally, then we have to explain how the Aaronic priesthood can be restored while the New Covenant stands.
Not with you on that. The fulfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles has nothing to do with the restoration of the Aaronic priesthood.The simple way to see the fulfillment of the last three feasts: Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles = Rapture, Wrath and Eternity Millennium, then Eternity
Yes that's itYour system also has the problem that the supposed Millennium ends with a world-wide rebellion and a further pouring out of God's wrath. Where is the feast that corresponds to that?
It's not a world wide rebellion at all. When Satan is released from the abyss after the millennium he makes beeline for the area we call Russia (Gog and Magog) and is able to rally a remnant of them to surround Jerusalem once again, but this time God destroys them with fire from heaven. This happens after the the feast of Tabernacles has been fulfilled. It is not the fulfillment of any other set time of God. After this Satan himself is cast into the lake of fire and God creates a new Heaven and a new Earth.Amen! Just have to be prepared to face the Tribulation first.
We get enough tribulation from the world, the flesh and the devil already. For Christ's sake alone God is not going to suffer Christ's body to endure Tribulation from Him for a second time too, once was enough, that is the hope of the Church, to be with Him forever once we are caught away before all this crap befalls this earth.0 -
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Ohh I'm not crazy about that van imp fella.....or his end times prophesy tbh. I think he concentrates far too much on this kind of stuff instead of the 'real' stuff. I think when our lord told the apostles in Matthew, 'Don't be decieved', and again when Paul told the same thing to the Thessolonians in his letter, that he was warning about paying too much emphasis on the 'fantastical' and not enough on the day to day...
...but then, I guess that's kinda kill joy too..lol...:o..not to mention the films etc. etc. that have made a whole lot out of end times propoganda or even dare I say 'Discovery'..
I've read that many hair brained stuff though..shees!...and how many times have we to listen about this hurrican or that storm or whatever is a 'sign' *snores* and then it doesn't happen and people lose faith because it didn't happen. I seem to remember at one stage about 600 women standing in Jeruselem wearing white dresses waiting for Jesus return because someone told them the date and time...lol....They must have missed the bit where is says that nobody knows.... 0 -
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Soul Winner said:
You said Christians can't face God's wrath, and since you claim the Tribulation is His wrath they can't be in it. Yet here you acknowledge members of the Church in the Tribulation.Originally Posted by wolfsbane
We can reject this on the basis even of your own principle: those whom Christ died for can not be the objects of His wrath. But you admit you have such people in the Tribulation period. If the Tribulation is His wrath, then you contradict yourself.
The coming of the wrath of God is what makes them turn to God and His Christ and therefore become part of His church, but because this happens after the Rapture of the Church they must needs endure this Tribulation and most likely give their lives for their faith because up until this point they had not accepted the atoning work of Christ. I can't see the contradiction at all.
You said the rider on the white horse in Rev. 6 was the Antichrist. And Rev. 7 clearly has the Tribulation on-going. Yet Rev. 13 has him just then arising. What sequence is this?Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
You assume Revelation is chronological, but it's not. It is a series of dramas, going over the same ground but with different emphases/revelations.
Revelation is chronological. The symbolism changes from time to time. For example the man on the white horse in revelation six who arrives on the scene as a result of the lamb opening the first seal is none other than Antichrist.
But not necessarily chronologically.The events that are unveiled therein proceed through a series of seals, trumpets and vials.
I see you have no trouble symbolising when it suits.Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
Otherwise how do we explain Christ's birth in revelation 12?
Revelation 12 is not a description of Christ's birth. It is a description of the 144,000. The woman clothed with the sun and 12 stars is Israel and her man child is the 144,000. The woman represents a group of people and this group of people (12 tribes) gives birth to groups of people. If you read the last verse of chapter 12 you will notice that the serpent cannot overcome the woman (Israel as a whole) so he goes to war with her remnant the 144,000 who were sealed earlier in the book. Christ is not the remnant of Israel therefore the birth of this man child cannot be a description of the birth of Christ. But the point is that the woman's child is not the remnant - He ascended to God: 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. The remnant were the rest of her children - the brethren of Christ, the Church on earth: 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
If you believe in a literal Millennium, surely you have to believe in a literal Temple and sacrificing priesthood, as per Ezekiel 40-48? Re-introduction of circumcision, a separate priesthood, animal sacrifices, holy pots and pans, holy days, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
This makes one ask if Zechariah and Ezekiel are meant to be understood symbolically or literally. It literally, then we have to explain how the Aaronic priesthood can be restored while the New Covenant stands.
Not with you on that. The fulfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles has nothing to do with the restoration of the Aaronic priesthood.
But Hebrews 7 tells us that a change of priesthood involves a change of covenant:
Hebrews 7:1 Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. 13 For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood. 15 And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest 16 who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life. 17 For He testifies:
“ You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”
18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, 19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is thebringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.
Sounds pretty world-wide to me: 7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
Your system also has the problem that the supposed Millennium ends with a world-wide rebellion and a further pouring out of God's wrath. Where is the feast that corresponds to that?
It's not a world wide rebellion at all.
So there are events after those pictured by the Feasts? Would it not make more sense that the Feasts cover the whole story - that Tabernacles is the end of all our travel, eternity with Him: Rev. 21:2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”This happens after the the feast of Tabernacles has been fulfilled. It is not the fulfillment of any other set time of God. After this Satan himself is cast into the lake of fire and God creates a new Heaven and a new Earth.0 -
You said Christians can't face God's wrath, and since you claim the Tribulation is His wrath they can't be in it. Yet here you acknowledge members of the Church in the Tribulation.
I explained this already. They were not part of the Church when time for the Rapture came. God is a God is set times as we have already pointed out. They did not accept the atonement of Christ before the Rapture and that's why they were not caught up. To be caught up in the rapture one must have God's spirit working in them and the only way you can get God's spirit working in you is when you are acting in faith the promises in His Word. Those who trust God to lead them through this life are the ones who are covered and will be the ones caught up as long as they stay connected in faith. When people turn to God after the Church is caught away they become part of the Church but not the rapture Church. They must endure the Great Tribulation but will be saved through it, again as long as they stay connected in faith. If you miss the Rapture it does not mean that you are without hope. There will still be a chance for people to repent during this time of tribulation and turn to God and be saved. In fact more people will be saved in this period than ever before.
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God," Revelation 7:9-11
"And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."Revelation 7:13-14
But because they previously rejected the atoning work of Christ they will have to endure God's wrath being poured out on this earth even though judicially they are viewed as in Christ by faith, so no ultimate condemnation will befall them. They will join the number of their brethren until that number is complete.
"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes (symbolizing their blamelessness before God, i.e. viewed as in Christ) were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, (until the set time of atonement should be fulfilled on earth) until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." Revelation 6:9-11You said the rider on the white horse in Rev. 6 was the Antichrist. And Rev. 7 clearly has the Tribulation on-going. Yet Rev. 13 has him just then arising. What sequence is this?
When Antichrist (the man) arrives on the scene he is just a normal earthly ruler but one that will come up with a peace plan for the middle east. Daniel tells us that he will make pact with Israel and break that pact in the middle of the week. The week is a week of years not days. So halfway through this week (3 and half years) of years Antichrist will break the pact and surround the holy city. It is at this time that the beast which was, and is not (in John the revelator's time) but will ascend from the abyss and posses this earthly ruler that he becomes the beast. He will literally be possessed by this demonic force similar to the likes of Alexander the great, Napoleon, Hitler et al were possessed.But not necessarily chronologically.
The book of revelation does proceed chronologically but as we have seen above there are certain parentheses which give a wider but more condensed overview of events. E.G. The saints which are seen under the altar in Revelation 6 are Old and New Testament saints who were slain because of the Word of God. Their number is not fulfilled until all who are to be slain for the Word of God during the Great Tribulation is complete. This doesn't take place until the end of the seven years tribulation period but John's sees them in Revelation 6. The book itself interprets this and needs no coercion from me. The book tells us that they are saints which have come out of the great tribulation but it also tells us that this tribulation does not end until Armageddon when Christ returns to destroy Antichrist and the false prophet. So we must move with the book if we are to interpret it correctly and also use other scriptures which talk about the same events from a different perspective in order to get a better picture of the whole revelation.I see you have no trouble symbolising when it suits. But the point is that the woman's child is not the remnant - He ascended to God: 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. The remnant were the rest of her children - the brethren of Christ, the Church on earth: 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
So you've no trouble accepting that the woman represents Israel and not Mary the mother of Jesus. I agree that the woman represents Israel and that her travailing in pain is the great tribulation period (i.e. Jacob's trouble) itself, and that the man child is the 144,000. When you read all of chapter 12 in that context then it makes much more sense that viewing the man child as Christ. If the man-child represents Christ then that means that Satan has already been cast out of heaven. But the book of Job makes it clear that Satan still has access to the heavenlies. And Paul in Ephesians 6 states specifically that we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against spiritual wickedness in the heavelies. If those wicked forces were still there in Paul's day but not there now, then when were they cast out? These are the kind of difficult obstacles one must get over if one is to maintain the position that the man child is Christ. It simply is not Christ and no confusion need to surround who it is because once you eliminate Christ as a candidate then who's left?If you believe in a literal Millennium, surely you have to believe in a literal Temple and sacrificing priesthood, as per Ezekiel 40-48? Re-introduction of circumcision, a separate priesthood, animal sacrifices, holy pots and pans, holy days, etc.
But Hebrews 7 tells us that a change of priesthood involves a change of covenant:
Hebrews 7:1 Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. 13 For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood. 15 And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest 16 who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life. 17 For He testifies:
“ You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”
18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, 19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is thebringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.
Yes I believe in a literal millennium and a literal ruling of Christ Himself on earth in that time, not a sacrificing priesthood of the order of the Levities. The millennial reign of Christ's kingdom on earth will be the fulfillment of the feast of Tabernacles, it will not incorporate the old yearly feast of Passover sacrifices. During the feast of Tabernacles celebrated in the Old Testament the tribes were to move out of their dwellings into temporary dwelling places called 'booths' (Sukkot). It was to remind them of their humble beginnings and how they used to live until God prospered them. It was to make them remember that it was God who delivered then and who provided for them. The world is to celebrate this feast for a thousand years in order to remind them that God alone is to be worshiped and He alone is the provided and sustainer of their wealth. There will be blessings on the nations who keep this feast yearly and curses on the ones which don't. Nothing to do with the Passover feast. That was already fulfilled in Christ and when the Jews recognize Him whom they have pierced they will cease celebrating this feast.Sounds pretty world-wide to me: 7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
Just because Satan sets out to deceive the nations throughout the world to try to assemble an army to surround Jerusalem that doesn't mean that he succeeds. Yes that is his intention but the only area where he can influence anyone is in the area of God and Magog, which is modern day Russia. So my point stands, this will not be a world wide rebellion.So there are events after those pictured by the Feasts? Would it not make more sense that the Feasts cover the whole story - that Tabernacles is the end of all our travel, eternity with Him: Rev. 21:2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
From Wiki:
"The feast of Tabernacles is a seven-day Jewish festival also known as Sukkot or the Feast of Booths. It is immediately followed by the eighth day which alludes to the redemption at the end of days and where shelter is no longer required as protection against physical elements. The feast of Tabernacles is one of the most important days in the Judaic tradition and is celebrated on the 15th of Tishrei in the Hebrew calendar."
What you quote happens after the thousand yeas reign when the feast of Tabernacles is fulfilled. After this there is a new beginning where God makes all things new. The number 8 is always symbolic of new beginnings. 8 souls surviving the flood and so on.
After Satan is cast into the lake of fire in chapter 20, God makes all things new in chapter 21. And Satan is only released after the thousand years reign or the fulfillment of the east of Tabernacles.
"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful." Revaltion 21:1-5
It's eternity from here-on-in after that. 0 -
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