Health care in USA

RedPlanet

I'm not sure what's happened to the Health Care proposal (which one?) in the US right now.
I did watch Michael Moore's Sicko and found it very revealing.

Found this editorial from the Washington Times just now:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/21/AR2009082101778.html
Basically dispelling myths about other western countries health care.
Should be required reading.

Overheal

Michael Moore tells the story he wants to tell.

the whole dinner in france scene is enough to make you puke. and its not the food.

RedPlanet

Overheal wrote: »

Michael Moore tells the story he wants to tell.

yeah, he's a documentarian and they have a tendency of doing that.

Overheal wrote: »

the whole dinner in france scene is enough to make you puke. and its not the food.

I loved that part. But i see where you're coming from; US citizens that have turned they're back on the crappy system they have in the USA for the more family-friendly France.

Lockstep

As much as I understand Moore likes sensationalism, the US system seems incredibly flawed. Especially in regard to the bureacracy of the HMOs, managing to spend 15% of their funds on administration (compared to 2% for Medicare/Medicaid)

Spending per person is around $6142 per person with a life expectancy of 77.5
France $3150 (79.6)
Germany $3043 (78.9)
Britain 2508 (78.5)

simplistic

Overheal wrote: »

Michael Moore tells the story he wants to tell.

the whole dinner in france scene is enough to make you puke. and its not the food.

:D:D

Ha your spot on.!

Wait till you see his new one on capitalisim. He tries to get the money back from the banks and give it to the government. HAHAHA

Its like if the mafia owned a restaurant and the restaurant is ripping of the customers and some film maker decides that he want to take the money from the restaurant and give it back to the mafia as some heroic gesture! hahaha

And to stay on topic the health care bill will cause the imprisonment of people who do not pay. Im not a doctor but throwing people in prison for not having health care will not improve their health.

I predict the full collapse of america by 2013 or sooner.

Overheal

what do The Irish know about ****ty healthcare anyway :rolleyes:

I've read one or two of Moore's books (Dude wheres my America comes to mind) I dont want to say the guy is wrong - but he should have stuck to comedy. I also think pushing the gitmo button at the end of the film was terribly misdirected and an obvious attempt to rally the undereducated. Military personal also as it turns out, get free healthcare. afaik they arent even allowed to sue for that reason - brought to my attention when a seargant on a bicycle tried to beat my boss across the street and managed to get himself fishtailed by the sedan. ouch. Patience much!

The Sarge is fine btw. Still serving; still cycling!

Back on healthcare though keep yourself tuned to CNN or Fox (Fox seems to be covering Healthcare religiously this morning) as its about to go to vote on the senate floor whether to begin proceedings or not on the current bill; in the next few hours.

I recently signed into an HMO. Its something. Medicare - I'd be lucky to ever see a dime of all the money being taken off me. Its going bankrupt and its going bankrupt fast. Being lapped up by t3h old folk who spend their mornings afternoons and evenings at the bar in Applebees.

Black Swan

Overheal wrote: »

what do The Irish know about ****ty healthcare anyway

Generally speaking, if you are a baby being born to the average family of your country, there's a bit better chance that you will survive child birth during the first year of life in Ireland than in the United States:

Country/Infant Mortality Rate
United States/6.26
Ireland/5.05

If you are a baby, you have a much better chance of surviving birth during your first year of life NOT in the United States, but rather:

Country/Infant Mortality Rate
Hong Kong/2.92
Japan /2.79
Sweden/2.75
Bermuda/2.46
Singapore/2.31

Source: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2091rank.html

The infant mortality rate is almost three times greater in the US than Singapore? You would think that the world's superpower would take better care of its innocent children? When it comes to health care in the US: "All people are equal, but some people are more equal ($) than others?"

Lockstep

I don't think the problem in America is sh!tty healthcare; it's the cost and access to it.

JohnMc1

kickoutthejams wrote: »

As much as I understand Moore likes sensationalism, the US system seems incredibly flawed. Especially in regard to the bureacracy of the HMOs, managing to spend 15% of their funds on administration (compared to 2% for Medicare/Medicaid)

Every healthcare will have some flaw/s. The US healthcare system isn't as terrible as some make it out to be. The answer to its flaws is not in Govt controlled Health Care. They will just make EVERYTHING worse. Look at what they already control. Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, Amtrack and the Post Office. They are either hemorraging money or just about bankrupt or will be soon.

Lockstep

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Every healthcare will have some flaw/s. The US healthcare system isn't as terrible as some make it out to be. The answer to its flaws is not in Govt controlled Health Care. They will just make EVERYTHING worse. Look at what they already control. Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, Amtrack and the Post Office. They are either hemorraging money or just about bankrupt or will be soon.

I really think it is. As flawed as our own system is, we don't have people filing for bankruptcy for medical bills. As it stands, the US system is incredibly inefficient; ER is used as a GP by people who don't have healthcare for example.
As it stands, the US has an incredibly privatised system which still manages to cost staggering amounts of cash, hefty bureacracy, people dropped when they need coverage most and provide decent service to those insured without any sort of value for money.


The Social Security/bankruptcy claim pretty refuted by Al Franken in The Truth With Jokes. Not too fussed about Amtrak or the Post Office as they're fairly irrelevant to a discussion on healthcare.

The Medicare is bankrupt claim is an old one; it claims that the Trust FUnd created for Medicare will be exhausted by 2017...without anticipating that no changes will be made in Medicare spending or funding.
The US Department of Defence's budget is raised every year in lieu of having it's spending changed; I wouldn't call the DOD bankrupt.
Furthermore mandated coverage (especially with Community Ratings) would help lower costs (eliminating the bloated administration arising from screenings) and a centralised bargaining agency for drugs would help lower the prescription costs which is a huge problem that spills over to Medicare/Medicade.

Indeed, the Medicare/Medicaid claim is an extremely unfair one;
US healthcare costs are being pushed higher and higher by the HMO system whereas Medicare/Medicaid are at a clear disadvantage, especially given the prescription costs (not exactly helped when you have Pharamceutical-friendly legislation spearheaded by Rep. Billy Tauzin who went onto become CEO of PhRMA) which accounted for 2/3 of MEdicare expenditure increases in recent years.

JohnMc1

kickoutthejams wrote: »

I really think it is. As flawed as our own system is, we don't have people filing for bankruptcy for medical bills. As it stands, the US system is incredibly inefficient; ER is used as a GP by people who don't have healthcare for example.
As it stands, the US has an incredibly privatised system which still manages to cost staggering amounts of cash, hefty bureacracy, people dropped when they need coverage most and provide decent service to those insured without any sort of value for money.

One can make that same arguement for EUs Healthcare system. None is perfect but putting people in charge that are not even competant in their "real" jobs [Pelosi and co.] having them who never worked a day in their lives is not the answer. This new Healthcare bill isn't about fixing the flaws its about control.




Indeed, the Medicare/Medicaid claim is an extremely unfair one;
US healthcare costs are being pushed higher and higher by the HMO system whereas Medicare/Medicaid are at a clear disadvantage, especially given the prescription costs (not exactly helped when you have Pharamceutical-friendly legislation spearheaded by Rep. Billy Tauzin who went onto become CEO of PhRMA) which accounted for 2/3 of MEdicare expenditure increases in recent years.[/QUOTE]

And yet Pelosi's Healthcare bill gives alot of benefits to the Pharmaceutical Companies.

Lockstep

JohnMc1 wrote: »

One can make that same arguement for EUs Healthcare system.

Yes, and look at the results of these EU countries. Even Britain with it's socialised medicine (doctors as government employees) has much lower spending and a higher life expectancy.

JohnMc1 wrote: »

None is perfect but putting people in charge that are not even competant in their "real" jobs [Pelosi and co.] having them who never worked a day in their lives is not the answer. This new Healthcare bill isn't about fixing the flaws its about control.

Lot of theory/opinion, little on facts there.

JohnMc1 wrote: »

And yet Pelosi's Healthcare bill gives alot of benefits to the Pharmaceutical Companies.

Such as?

Overheal

Speaking of HEalth I just sneezed so hard my arms died :eek::(

Pocono Joe

I just got out of the hospital trauma center after being in a car accident (not my fault). The attending trauma doctor was from Britain. As I’m lying on the table in a neck brace, I asked him why he was here in the US and what he felt about our system compared to his back home. He pretty much said the US medical system was much better and the knowledge he is getting out of our system he considers to be far superior in the trauma field. I then asked him what he thought of the US possibly going towards socialized medicine. His response was simply "not good."

silverharp

on infant mortality maybe it depends how you garther your stats? and as one of the blog comments mentioned need to take immigrant issues and fertility treatment into account

http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2008/08/why-does-the-us.html


The main factors affecting early infant survival are birth weight and
prematurity. The way that these factors are reported — and how such
babies are treated statistically — tells a different story than what
the numbers reveal. Lowbi rth weight infants are not counted against the “live birth” statistics for many countries reporting low infant mortality rates.

According to the way statistics are calculated in Canada, Germany, and Austria, a premature baby weighing less than 500 kg is not considered a living
child. But in the U.S., such very low birth weight babies are considered live
births. The mortality rate of such babies — considered “unsalvageable”
outside of the U.S. and therefore never alive — is extraordinarily
high; up to 869 per 1,000 in the first month of life alone. This skews
U.S. infant mortality statistics.Norway boasts one of the lowest infant mortality rates in the world. But when the main determinant of mortality — weight at birth — is factored in,
Norway has no better survival rates than the United States….

In the United States, all infants who show signs of life at birth
(take a breath, move voluntarily, have a heartbeat) are considered
alive.

If a child in Hong Kong or Japan is born alive but dies within the
first 24 hours of birth, he or she is reported as a “miscarriage” and
does not affect the country’s reported infant mortality rates….

Efforts to salvage these tiny babies reflect this classification. Since
2000, 42 of the world’s 52 surviving babies weighing less than 400g
(0.9 lbs.) were born in the United States.

Hmm, so in the US we actually try to save low-birthweight babies rather than label them unsalvageable. Wow, we sure have a cold and heartless system here. [disclosure: My nephew was a very pre-mature, very low-birthweight baby who could have fit in the palm of your hand at birth and survived by the full application of American medical technology. He is doing great today

RedPlanet

So are all you yanks contended with your health care system?
And just annoyed that those pesky democrats would upset things in this respect?
If it ain't broke, don't fix it?

Or is it that you just can't handle a situation where those French surrender monkeys out perform you?

JohnMc1

RedPlanet wrote: »

So are all you yanks contended with your health care system?

Every healthcare system will have its flaws. Giving the Govt control of the system when it can't run what it already does properly [Medicaid,Medicare, The Post Office, and Amtrack] should make any sane and rational person uneasy. Remember Obama said it would be just like the Post Office.:eek:

And just annoyed that those pesky democrats would upset things in this respect?

This is about control right down to where you live, what you drive, what you drive, etc. There is a reason they don't want us to know what's in the bills. Though I have a feeling you would be "morally" outraged if a Rep administration was pulling the exact same stunts that Obama and Dems are pulling.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it?

There is room for improvement but giving Pelosi and co control of our Health is not the answer.

Or is it that you just can't handle a situation where those French surrender monkeys out perform you?

I could care less about them.

RedPlanet

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Every healthcare system will have its flaws. Giving the Govt control of the system when it can't run what it already does properly [Medicaid,Medicare, The Post Office, and Amtrack] should make any sane and rational person uneasy. Remember Obama said it would be just like the Post Office.:eek:

Is there something unique about American government incompetence?
After all, most (all?) 1st world countries manage to run a socialized health care system.

JohnMc1

RedPlanet wrote: »

Is there something unique about American government incompetence?
After all, most (all?) 1st world countries manage to run a socialized health care system.

And not very well [If you want to be taken seriously you should atleast be willing to admit that]. This past Saturday I was at St. Luke's Hospital for over 4 hours before finally being told that I had a strained muscle. Stateside I would have probably been there an hour.

RedPlanet

JohnMc1 wrote: »

And not very well [If you want to be taken seriously you should atleast be willing to admit that]. This past Saturday I was at St. Luke's Hospital for over 4 hours before finally being told that I had a strained muscle. Stateside I would have probably been there an hour.

A&E huh?
Tbh, stateside they wouldn't have even seen you if you didn't possess the necessary papers (insurance) or a valid CC.

Overheal

RedPlanet wrote: »

Is there something unique about American government incompetence?
After all, most (all?) 1st world countries manage to run a socialized health care system.

Well, when I think of Irish Healthcare, 21%+ VAT, A&E closures, An Post wage freezes...

Oh, and The Epic Post of Senior El Biggins...

and i almost forgot todays strike action. duh

Pocono Joe

John, in a rural hospital that 1 hour statement of yours I have found to be true, but apparently not in city hospitals. I have both type of hospitals within a half hour from me. I have utilized both, but the more serious medical conditions dictate you go to a city hospital in which they are better equipped to handle them. Unfortunately it takes hours to just get seen these days when you walk into a city hospital emergency room. The problem we have is cities are loaded with people on medical assistance and illegal aliens. I have talked to a number of health care officials across the country (I'm in the health care support industry), and it is a enormous problem in the US, because these type of individuals typically use the emergency room as their primary care facility. This way they don’t need to spend the typical small co-pay amounts. They know how to work (scam) our system. They know a hospital can’t turn them away and they get fast-tracked into the emergency room when they use the magic two words "chest pains." People sit for hours with severe conditions while people get immediate emergency treatment with just the sniffles. When you complain to hospital staff, they apologize but state that their hands are tied by the laws that govern their hospitals.

And regarding the infant mortality rate in the US, we count any sign of life as a "live birth." Many countries on the list don’t count any infant that dies in the first 24 hours as a "live birth." Half of our infant mortality happens within the first 24 hours. Now if we used the same method of reporting mortality as many other countries (and didn't count live births for 24 hours or by weight), then our infant mortality rate would be around 3.13, making us around 3rd best. But don’t let the truth and facts stand in the way of a good old bashing of the US system.

RedPlanet

Overheal wrote: »

Well, when I think of Irish Healthcare, 21%+ VAT, A&E closures, An Post wage freezes...

Oh, and The Epic Post of Senior El Biggins...

But nobody is holding up the Irish system as a model.
You'll notice that this thread is under "US Politics", as we are discussing the US Shambolic Health Care industry.
You know: putting profit before people, the american way.

JohnMc1

RedPlanet wrote: »

A&E huh?

Yep. I wouldn't complain if they done scans to find out what it was but to keep me waiting there for 4 hours and nearly all of it waiting [over 2.5 hours for blood work results?] and probably 10 or 20 minutes with an actual doctor is obscene.

Tbh, stateside they wouldn't have even seen you if you didn't possess the necessary papers (insurance) or a valid CC.

I am an American born citizen. They cannot turn me away. Plus I do have a valid CC and SS#. Plus the last couple of years I was in the States I was on Healthfirst [had Cancer was a PT worker over the Medicaid limit so I lied and said I was unemployed to get it]

With all the Illegals problems they had to start asking for papers like that. As I said previously I know the system isn't perfect [no system is] but what they are trying [and probably will unless Senate/House Dems that are up for reelection next year get feet] to cram down our throats is not the solution.

Overheal

RedPlanet wrote: »

But nobody is holding up the Irish system as a model.
You'll notice that this thread is under "US Politics", as we are discussing the US Shambolic Health Care industry.
You know: putting profit before people, the american way.

Roll two-twelve, Jimmy:

RedPlanet wrote: »

Is there something unique about American government incompetence?
After all, most (all?) 1st world countries manage to run a socialized health care system.

Is Ireland not a 1st World Country?

Actually let me help you figure that out: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/08/First_second_third_worlds_map.svg

JohnMc1

RedPlanet wrote: »

But nobody is holding up the Irish system as a model.

Actually Obama wants to model the Healthcare reform based on Ireland's system. Yep American's are officially screwed. Another Trillion to the defecit for nothing.

Lockstep

Pocono Joe wrote: »

I just got out of the hospital trauma center after being in a car accident (not my fault). The attending trauma doctor was from Britain. As I’m lying on the table in a neck brace, I asked him why he was here in the US and what he felt about our system compared to his back home. He pretty much said the US medical system was much better and the knowledge he is getting out of our system he considers to be far superior in the trauma field. I then asked him what he thought of the US possibly going towards socialized medicine. His response was simply "not good."

Ah seriously now, Politics forum isn't the best place for "I met a man in the pub who bitched about his home country" stories.

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Every healthcare system will have its flaws. Giving the Govt control of the system when it can't run what it already does properly [Medicaid,Medicare, The Post Office, and Amtrack] should make any sane and rational person uneasy. Remember Obama said it would be just like the Post Office.:eek:



This is about control right down to where you live, what you drive, what you drive, etc. There is a reason they don't want us to know what's in the bills. Though I have a feeling you would be "morally" outraged if a Rep administration was pulling the exact same stunts that Obama and Dems are pulling.



There is room for improvement but giving Pelosi and co control of our Health is not the answer.



I could care less about them.

Again, your post seems big on implications and opinions without any supporting data.

JohnMc1 wrote: »

And not very well [If you want to be taken seriously you should atleast be willing to admit that]. This past Saturday I was at St. Luke's Hospital for over 4 hours before finally being told that I had a strained muscle. Stateside I would have probably been there an hour.

Better than the US system at any rate as has already been shown.
If we're going on anecdotal evidence, I only had to wait 45 minutes for a bandaged head in Belgium. Damn socialised medicine!

Pocono Joe wrote: »

And regarding the infant mortality rate in the US, we count any sign of life as a "live birth." Many countries on the list don’t count any infant that dies in the first 24 hours as a "live birth." Half of our infant mortality happens within the first 24 hours. Now if we used the same method of reporting mortality as many other countries (and didn't count live births for 24 hours or by weight), then our infant mortality rate would be around 3.13, making us around 3rd best. But don’t let the truth and facts stand in the way of a good old bashing of the US system.

Any evidence for these "many other countries" or is it an opinion?

JohnMc1 wrote: »

I am an American born citizen. They cannot turn me away. Plus I do have a valid CC and SS#. Plus the last couple of years I was in the States I was on Healthfirst [had Cancer was a PT worker over the Medicaid limit so I lied and said I was unemployed to get it]

Which is a major problem; the use of AnE as a GP. Also allows those who are not paying insurance to weigh down the system.

JohnMc1 wrote: »

With all the Illegals problems they had to start asking for papers like that. As I said previously I know the system isn't perfect [no system is] but what they are trying [and probably will unless Senate/House Dems that are up for reelection next year get feet] to cram down our throats is not the solution.

And once again, noone claime any system is perfect but the American system is an inefficient, highly expensive juggernaught.

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Actually Obama wants to model the Healthcare reform based on Ireland's system. Yep American's are officially screwed. Another Trillion to the defecit for nothing.

He said this?
Interesting. And strange as he wants mandated private insurance rather than a state-system like we have.

JohnMc1

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Which is a major problem; the use of AnE as a GP. Also allows those who are not paying insurance to weigh down the system.
.

I didn't use the A&E as a Clinic. I never have and will. Nice try at baiting and/or generalizing though.

Pocono Joe

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Ah seriously now, Politics forum isn't the best place for "I met a man in the pub who bitched about his home country" stories.

Hmmmm... now why in the world would I consider first hand knowledge of a medical professional who is familiar with both the US healthcare system and also a socialized medicine system to be relevant (in this highly politically charged debate we are having in the US), and then post it in the “Health Care in the USA” topic. Silly me!

Any evidence for these "many other countries" or is it an opinion?

Let’s see... is it not true that in much of Europe, babies born before 26 weeks' gestation are not considered "live births?" And that Switzerland only counts babies who are at least 30 centimeters long (11.8 inches) as being born alive? And in Canada, Austria and Germany, only babies weighing at least a pound are considered live births? And that France, Hong Kong and Japan don't count infant deaths that occur in the 24 hours after birth? Need more?

Black Swan

None of you have been in a US hospital and afterwords been shocked by the health care charges? Then you wonder why "...medical debt is a leading cause of personal bankruptcy" [in the United States]?

"You've heard of the $10 aspirin? It's that pricey because hospitals mark up costs an average of 232%--as much as 673% at the 100 priciest institutions, according to a recent study by the Institute for Health and Socio-Economic Policy."

"In 2001, Laverne Dumas, one of the plaintiffs in a suit against Provena Mercy Center in Aurora, Ill., went into the hospital for a severe sinus infection and was sent a $12,338 bill that included $650 a day for the room and $6 for each ibuprofen pill."

Get real! The US health care system is one of the most profit-driven enterprises and is bleeding the average person to death with ridiculous charges whenever they can get away with it, or bleeding them by proxy through private sector medical insurance premiums.

Source: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,995200-2,00.html

Overheal

One of the few things I like going forward into the current bill is protection for Doctors from Lawsuit. Couple that with driving down or freezing hospital prices. In fairness to medicine, they can have their entire earnings for a year pissed away in a week if somone yells Malpractice.

Lockstep

JohnMc1 wrote: »

I didn't use the A&E as a Clinic. I never have and will. Nice try at baiting and/or generalizing though.

I never said you did but people can do so.
That's the problem right there.
How is that baiting or generalising?

Lockstep

Pocono Joe wrote: »

Hmmmm... now why in the world would I consider first hand knowledge of a medical professional who is familiar with both the US healthcare system and also a socialized medicine system to be relevant (in this highly politically charged debate we are having in the US), and then post it in the “Health Care in the USA” topic. Silly me!

Yes, use one anecdotal case (dubious arguments at best seeing as they run into problems as they can easily be embellished/made up without anyone able to look into them) in the midst of a thread where attempts are made to use genuine data and research.

Pocono Joe wrote: »

Let’s see... is it not true that in much of Europe, babies born before 26 weeks' gestation are not considered "live births?" And that Switzerland only counts babies who are at least 30 centimeters long (11.8 inches) as being born alive? And in Canada, Austria and Germany, only babies weighing at least a pound are considered live births? And that France, Hong Kong and Japan don't count infant deaths that occur in the 24 hours after birth? Need more?

I'll repeat myself; evidence? Please.

Overheal

By the Power of Google: Switzerland Abortion ---- FAIL. First Trimester. But that was not the iformation we were looking for....

By the Power of Google: Switzerland Live Birth

---

DING!

Myth: The U.S. premature birth rate is higher than that of other countries.

Fact: In the Netherlands, babies below 25 weeks gestation are no longer resuscitated, but rather given only palliative treatment. Those at 25 to 26 weeks are generally resuscitated and kept alive, but the decision depends on the facts of each case.3 The result is underreporting the number babies that may be live-born but who are not offered aggressive treatment.

Switzerland only uses two of the four WHO criteria, respiration and heart beat, and does not aggressively treat very premature babies. In some cantons, the baby must be 30 cm long to be registered as a live birth. Switzerland also requires registration of still births only from 6 months gestation and has no rule regarding registration of live births. Studies have found significant underreporting of premature births in Switzerland, which can alter the overall mortality rate by more than a percentage point.4

http://www.biggovhealth.org/resource/myths-facts/infant-mortality-and-premature-birth/

Makes me wonder about reporting of violence. Perhaps hyper-anal bureaucracy and meticulous recording is making America look bad.

Ill leave you to google the rest Jams. 30 whole seconds. Whew. Im spent.

jank

JohnMc1 wrote: »

I am an American born citizen. They cannot turn me away. Plus I do have a valid CC and SS#. Plus the last couple of years I was in the States I was on Healthfirst [had Cancer was a PT worker over the Medicaid limit so I lied and said I was unemployed to get it]

This doesnt make sense. You are giving out about a government run health service but more than happy to lie in order for you to qualify for it and avail of the said service.

LOL truly the republican alright!:D

JohnMc1

jank wrote: »

This doesnt make sense. You are giving out about a government run health service but more than happy to lie in order for you to qualify for it and avail of the said service.

LOL truly the republican alright!:D

Yes Jank I know you would have preferred [Yes you are that low or atleast come across like that]if I had died but you are still grasping straws to try and bait an argument with me.

GuanYin

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

"You've heard of the $10 aspirin? It's that pricey because hospitals mark up costs an average of 232%--as much as 673% at the 100 priciest institutions, according to a recent study by the Institute for Health and Socio-Economic Policy."

All pharmacies mark up but then Walmart and Walgreens and Target have 5 dollar drug schemes for generics.

US healthcare is the way it is because it's run for profit and healthcare should not be run for profit, but the level of healthcare and the actually administration is quite good. If and when policies change, US healthcare will probably look quite good.

Regarding Moore.... Really? Come on guys!!

jank

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Yes Jank I know you would have preferred [Yes you are that low or atleast come across like that]if I had died but you are still grasping straws to try and bait an argument with me.

No, its not that at all. I just cant get my head around the fact the you are slaming government or socialised control of health care yet by all intents of purposes it saved your life!

I am guessing you did not have insurance cover for the particular treatment that did save your life or that you did but had to pay a large % to pay for it. I am guessing in the 10's of thosands at least anyway. Yet Medicaid gave you this for free (or waaaay cheaper) but you hate obamas plan becuase it is trying to help guys like you....

Just one question, what if they refused you medicaid...what would you have done? Get a huge loan to pay for the treatment, ask friends for a dig out? I am serious, what would you have done if the government didnt bail you out.

Also why didnt you have full health insurance?

By the way I am very glad you are here to tell the tale and gald you made a full recovery.

Lockstep

GuanYin wrote: »

US healthcare is the way it is because it's run for profit and healthcare should not be run for profit, but the level of healthcare and the actually administration is quite good. If and when policies change, US healthcare will probably look quite good.

The level of healthcare is excellent for those who have access to it, the administration in the HMOs is not. It's much too bureaucratic and expensive for my liking.

Lockstep

Overheal wrote: »

By the Power of Google: Switzerland Abortion ---- FAIL. First Trimester. But that was not the iformation we were looking for....

By the Power of Google: Switzerland Live Birth

---

DING!

http://www.biggovhealth.org/resource/myths-facts/infant-mortality-and-premature-birth/

Makes me wonder about reporting of violence. Perhaps hyper-anal bureaucracy and meticulous recording is making America look bad.

Ill leave you to google the rest Jams. 30 whole seconds. Whew. Im spent.

Forgive my scepitcism on the views of a group funded by pharmaceutical companies (as the Centre for Medicine in the Public Interest is, with it's biggest contributors in 2006 being Pfizers and the PHRMA)

It refers to in some cantons, there's 26 of them so I'd be interested in seeing more data on that.

Regardless, it is not my job to back up your points.

RedPlanet

biggovhealth.org?
Just a tad partisan.
Regardless, if it's true what the editorialist claims about all these other countries.. then it may also suggest that there exists a certain international practice in place of claiming live births. And it may very well be the case (like using imperial measurements) where the US is just the odd-man out.

US exceptionalism, exceptionally at odds with the rest of the world.

JohnMc1

jank wrote: »

No, its not that at all. I just cant get my head around the fact the you are slaming government or socialised control of health care yet by all intents of purposes it saved your life!

Not slamming it at all. Its true its not perfect and what the Obama admin wants won't be perfect as well. Do you really want Pelosi, Reid, Dobb and Frank overseeing your treatments?

I am guessing you did not have insurance cover for the particular treatment that did save your life or that you did but had to pay a large % to pay for it. I am guessing in the 10's of thosands at least anyway. Yet Medicaid gave you this for free (or waaaay cheaper) but you hate obamas plan becuase it is trying to help guys like you....

I hate the Obama plan because nobody is being across the board honest with us. Just pass everything in the middle of the night.They are playing hard and fast with our tax dollars [a trillion dollars or more and its not going to add to the defecit? Do they really think we're that stupid?] all the while touting honesty and transparency. There are ways of improving Healthcare

Just one question, what if they refused you medicaid...what would you have done? Get a huge loan to pay for the treatment, ask friends for a dig out? I am serious, what would you have done if the government didnt bail you out.

Probaly the only option left. Work out a payment plan with them.

Also why didnt you have full health insurance?

I was working 20 hours as a doorman [in residential buildings not the bouncer at bars type] and the building manager was a real **** [She was one of those "I broke the glass ceiling so you're all going pay." types. Makes Pelosi look pleasant in comparison] and wouldn't add me to the buildings Healthcare fund [It was on $20 to add a name to the list] and my Union delegate [Local 32BJ now part of SEIU the purple shirted thugs you see on the news] would only talk **** and not do anything.

By the way I am very glad you are here to tell the tale and gald you made a full recovery.

Thank You.

Pocono Joe

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Yes, use one anecdotal case (dubious arguments at best seeing as they run into problems as they can easily be embellished/made up without anyone able to look into them) in the midst of a thread where attempts are made to use genuine data and research.

Well... there was a police officer present, but hey, think what you want.

I'll repeat myself; evidence? Please.

Here is some of the data you were looking for that I found in less than 5 minutes of searching (from a source you might be comfortable with).
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db23.htm#ref7

Make special note of the following:
Although most countries require that all live births be reported, limits on birth registration requirements for some countries do have the potential to affect infant mortality comparisons, especially if very small infants who die soon after birth are excluded from infant mortality computations (7,8). There is also concern that birth registration may be incomplete near the lower limit of the reporting requirement, as the exact gestational age may not always be known.
7. Kramer MS, Platt RW, Yang H, et al. Registration artifacts in international comparisons of infant mortality. Paediatr Perinat Epidemiol 16:16-22. 2002.
8. Graafmans WC, Richardus JH, Macfarlane A, et al. Comparability of published perinatal mortality rates in Western Europe: The qualitative impact of differences in gestational age and birthweight criteria. BJOG 108:1237-45.

For the United States and for European countries, infant mortality rates were highest for infants born at 22-23 weeks of gestation and declined sharply with increasing gestational age. The majority of infants born at 22-23 weeks of gestation die in their first year of life; however, infant mortality rates for these very small infants may be unreliable as they may be affected by reporting differences as well as by differences in infant resuscitation practices (9).
9. Singh J, Fanaroff J, Andrews B, et al. Resuscitation in the “gray zone” of viability: Determining physician preferences and predicting infant outcomes. Pediatrics 120:519-26. 2007.

I was going to list this one for you, but I tire of all the ad hominem attacks. So think what you want... but 1+1 does equal 2.
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/3/9/184540.shtml

Let the yabutts begin.


Oh yeah... do you have a source for that statement of yours, or is it just opinion?

The level of healthcare is excellent for those who have access to it, the administration in the HMOs is not.

I utilize an HMO provided by BC. A pain in the butt sometimes, but I still receive excellent care.

RedPlanet

Overheal wrote: »

One of the few things I like going forward into the current bill is protection for Doctors from Lawsuit. Couple that with driving down or freezing hospital prices. In fairness to medicine, they can have their entire earnings for a year pissed away in a week if somone yells Malpractice.

Jeez you're worried about protecting doctors but what about their patients?

Americans are increasingly at risk of financial ruin due to illness and medical expenses, according to a new study released yesterday by the American Journal of Medicine. The researchers found that illness or medical bills contributed to nearly two thirds, or 62 percent, of all bankruptcies in 2007—before the major impact of the housing collapse and current economic downturn. That’s a 50 percent increase over a similar survey in 2001 by the same researchers.

Take Donna, from Chicago (right) who told us her bankruptcy story during our Cover America Tour. Donna’s husband had already been diagnosed with a heart condition, and when she found out she had uterine cancer, their out-of-pocket costs shot up to $9,000 a year. When they fell behind on their bills, one of her doctors sued to garnish her wages, which forced her and her husband into bankruptcy. They ended up losing their house, she gave up her job at a newspaper, and they moved into their daughter’s basement until they could afford a small apartment.

http://blogs.consumerreports.org/health/2009/06/health-care-bankruptcy-on-rise-medical-debt-medical-bills-how-to-avoid-bankruptcy.html

Pocono Joe

A good reading, and true experience in Texas, on why tort reform should be part of our overall health care reform package. And here is a very telling quote from the piece by Dr. Howard Dean, self-proclaimed leader of the Public Option push.

President Obama did not include aggressive lawsuit reform in his health care plan priorities and former Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean has made it clear why: “The reason why tort reform is not in the bill is because the people who wrote it did not want to take on the trial lawyers.”

http://www.tortreform.com/node/550

Lockstep

Pocono Joe wrote: »

Well... there was a police officer present, but hey, think what you want.

Does this mean I can say "I met over 9000 doctors who told me that the US system is falling under it's own weight"? It's both impossible to prove and can be used to shore up any argument.
That's the reason I'm extremely sceptical about anecdotal evidence.

Pocono Joe wrote: »

Here is some of the data you were looking for that I found in less than 5 minutes of searching (from a source you might be comfortable with).
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db23.htm#ref7

It says that the following require reporting of all births;
Austria, Denmark, England and Wales, Finland, Germany, Hungary, Italy, Northern Ireland, Portugal, Scotland, Slovak Republic, Spain, Sweden, United States
Surely it can't be skewed too heavily?

Also has;

Pocono Joe wrote: »

I was going to list this one for you, but I tire of all the ad hominem attacks. So think what you want... but 1+1 does equal 2.
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/3/9/184540.shtml

Let the yabutts begin.

That site relies pretty heavily on comparing countries that have different definitions for reporting infant mortality (Switzerland and France for example)
When comparing those countries that have the same reporting requirements as the US (Austria, Denmark) the US still comes out below;







I don't believe I've made an ad-hominem attack against you. I have questioned your sources and data.
If there are any posts I've made where I've attacked you directly, please quote them. I will then apologise (unless it's clearly not an attack)
Not trying to be a sarcastic bollix there, apologies if you feel attacked.

Pocono Joe wrote: »

Oh yeah... do you have a source for that statement of yours, or is it just opinion?

Sure, The Healthcare Imperative by the Paul Krugman in Conscience of a Liberal (2007), where he notes that private sector administration in the US accounts for 16% of their budget (mainly due to screenings), Medicare and Medicaid only spend 2% of their budget on administration.
I can get you the exact page number when I return home this evening if you wish.

Pocono Joe wrote: »

I utilize an HMO provided by BC. A pain in the butt sometimes, but I still receive excellent care.

Indeed, healthcare when gotten in the US is of an extremely high standard.

Lockstep

I think tort reform in the US is very necessary.

Compo cultures have an extremely negative aspect on healthcare.

Overheal

RedPlanet wrote: »

Jeez you're worried about protecting doctors but what about their patients?

Americans are increasingly at risk of financial ruin due to illness and medical expenses, according to a new study released yesterday by the American Journal of Medicine. The researchers found that illness or medical bills contributed to nearly two thirds, or 62 percent, of all bankruptcies in 2007—before the major impact of the housing collapse and current economic downturn. That’s a 50 percent increase over a similar survey in 2001 by the same researchers.

Take Donna, from Chicago (right) who told us her bankruptcy story during our Cover America Tour. Donna’s husband had already been diagnosed with a heart condition, and when she found out she had uterine cancer, their out-of-pocket costs shot up to $9,000 a year. When they fell behind on their bills, one of her doctors sued to garnish her wages, which forced her and her husband into bankruptcy. They ended up losing their house, she gave up her job at a newspaper, and they moved into their daughter’s basement until they could afford a small apartment.

http://blogs.consumerreports.org/health/2009/06/health-care-bankruptcy-on-rise-medical-debt-medical-bills-how-to-avoid-bankruptcy.html

You really dont see the relation between doctors getting sued by patients and patients getting sued by doctors?

jank

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Not slamming it at all. Its true its not perfect and what the Obama admin wants won't be perfect as well. Do you really want Pelosi, Reid, Dobb and Frank overseeing your treatments?

Well they oversaw your treatment to some extent and you are here to tell the tale so it cant be that bad.

JohnMc1 wrote: »

I hate the Obama plan because nobody is being across the board honest with us. Just pass everything in the middle of the night.They are playing hard and fast with our tax dollars [a trillion dollars or more and its not going to add to the defecit? Do they really think we're that stupid?] all the while touting honesty and transparency. There are ways of improving Healthcare .

Agree to some extent but that is politics I am afraid. However, I do believe that they are trying to improve it for the majority and for the greater good. On the other side of the coin the GOP has done NOTHING to try and improve health care. It killed hillarys plan in 92 and while bush was in the white house it wasnt even an issue. We all know whom the health insurance companys would favour in the white house. These town hall meetings in the summer were hi jacked by corporate interests. But that is politics too.

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Probaly the only option left. Work out a payment plan with them..

So you would be indebted for years and years to come. Surely you realise that there is a better way and that those damm liberals in france, germany might be on to something when it comes to health care. No system is clad iron 100% perfect but the american system either pay us of **** off.

Health care costs are the number one reason for bankruptcy in the US and you were not too far off being one of those statistic yourself.

JohnMc1 wrote: »

I was working 20 hours as a doorman [in residential buildings not the bouncer at bars type] and the building manager was a real **** [She was one of those "I broke the glass ceiling so you're all going pay." types. Makes Pelosi look pleasant in comparison] and wouldn't add me to the buildings Healthcare fund [It was on $20 to add a name to the list] and my Union delegate [Local 32BJ now part of SEIU the purple shirted thugs you see on the news] would only talk **** and not do anything..

Yea, unions can be dicks and only look after themselves to some extent

JohnMc1

jank wrote: »

Well they oversaw your treatment to some extent and you are here to tell the tale so it cant be that bad.

Which is why I don't want the new 3 Stooges [Pelosi, Frank and Reid with Dodd as Shemp] running healthcare. When Obama compares the revamped Healthcare system to the Post Office and other Govt run systems and to Irelands Healthcare system that should make any sane person cringe.

Agree to some extent but that is politics I am afraid.

Last time I checked Obama ran on a campaign of "Hope and Change" and "Honesty and Transparency" and "Getting rid of the Politics of old" and "Reaching across the aisle" Delivery on all of those promises? 0

However, I do believe that they are trying to improve it for the majority and for the greater good.

OK. That is just hilarious. LOL @ those controls freaks spending our tax dollars like a child who just got their Communion money having our best interests at heart. Level with me here. You did not type with a staright face.

So you would be indebted for years and years to come. Surely you realise that there is a better way and that those damm liberals in france, germany might be on to something when it comes to health care. No system is clad iron 100% perfect but the american system either pay us of **** off.

Health care costs are the number one reason for bankruptcy in the US and you were not too far off being one of those statistic yourself.

What else could I do? I'm a middle class white guy so I can't go on TV crying racism and they evil white man is keeping from my treatments.

I've been striaght across the board saying the system can be reformed. I'm just not for this reform. Their refusal to read their own bills before voting and their about face about putting it one the internet so we the tax payers can look at it does not inspire confidence that they have our best interest at heart. Just another trillion dollars down the drain when it finally kicks in 2013 [even though we start paying taxes for it in Jan]

Yea, unions can be dicks and only look after themselves to some extent

Can be? Did you hear the story about them going after a 17 yo Eagle Scout for having the utter audacity to clean a section of the park as part of his Community Service to earn his merit badge?

Plus the SEIU has had more face time Obama than any of his cabniet members or his military advisors [He's decided to make a decision about Iraq Afghan on Dec 6th? Some leader he is] The only one who close to that many visits is Michael Moore.

jank

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Which is why I don't want the new 3 Stooges [Pelosi, Frank and Reid with Dodd as Shemp] running healthcare. When Obama compares the revamped Healthcare system to the Post Office and other Govt run systems and to Irelands Healthcare system that should make any sane person cringe..

Where and when exactly did Obama compare the Irish health care system with the US and the Post Office as an aspiration to government run health care. Porky pies?

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Last time I checked Obama ran on a campaign of "Hope and Change" and "Honesty and Transparency" and "Getting rid of the Politics of old" and "Reaching across the aisle" Delivery on all of those promises? 0..

Well he is trying to change health care so you must give him a .5 mark at least....:p

JohnMc1 wrote: »

OK. That is just hilarious. LOL @ those controls freaks spending our tax dollars like a child who just got their Communion money having our best interests at heart. Level with me here. You did not type with a staright face.
..

And what do you think is their motive for more government run health care? New world order, Super Race, Money?

JohnMc1 wrote: »

What else could I do? I'm a middle class white guy so I can't go on TV crying racism and they evil white man is keeping from my treatments...

Ah so it comes down to race at the end of the day does it? I think this is the biggest gripe with the right at the moment. The white demograph is shrinking and coinciding with that the US is declining as a super power both at home and aboard. However I think they are putting 2 and 2 together and getting 13!

JohnMc1 wrote: »

I've been striaght across the board saying the system can be reformed. I'm just not for this reform. Their refusal to read their own bills before voting and their about face about putting it one the internet so we the tax payers can look at it does not inspire confidence that they have our best interest at heart. Just another trillion dollars down the drain when it finally kicks in 2013 [even though we start paying taxes for it in Jan].

I think your issue is not with Obama or even the democrats. Its with governments both left and right in recent time that has failed to deal with issues that people feel concerned about. See in all this the Republicans are more or less like the Democrats they will both spend taxpayers money.

Remember the patriot act and how that was passed? As I keep saying that is US politics. It is no use of going " But Obama, but Pelosi, But , But, But...."
If you think that McCain or Romney or Palin (god forbid) were calling the shots that it would be any different? No way in hell would it be, the system is what it is and needs to be change IMO. More parties would be nice.

No use pointing the finger at liberal and calling then black when you are a pot!

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Can be? Did you hear the story about them going after a 17 yo Eagle Scout for having the utter audacity to clean a section of the park as part of his Community Service to earn his merit badge? .

As I said Unions can be dicks!

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Plus the SEIU has had more face time Obama than any of his cabniet members or his military advisors [He's decided to make a decision about Iraq Afghan on Dec 6th? Some leader he is] The only one who close to that many visits is Michael Moore.

Links to prove this or more swiney porky pies!!