Rough Shooting Trials-Setter/pointers

EPointer=Birdss

Has there ever been such an event for the normal shooting man?

Where finding, working birds, handling, flushing on command, shooting & retrieving them all fed into the scoring. Could add a range of ground to it also, I.e bog, rush, crop cover etc

Would anyone on here think such an event would be a hit?
I'd much rather be buying pups from dogs with such accolades than the current trialing stock.

deeksofdoom

EPointer=Birdss wrote: »

Where finding, working birds, handling, flushing on command, shooting & retrieving them all fed into the scoring. Could add a range of ground to it also, I.e bog, rush, crop cover etc

Is that not what goes on at a trial anyway.

Maybe you mean flapper trials which are unregistered trials, we were going to run one in our club this year just for the members but never got around to it

EPointer=Birdss

Ya but trials at the moment are held in conditions I would deem contrary to a regular days shooting.
I.e. All trials I have seen have been on the side of hills with little or no ditches. Grouse days are great but not everyone has access.
I just think the whole trialing world is a bit robotic & not half as much fun as a day out rough shooting. I love watching rough shooting dogs hunt a field of mixed terrain with the thoughts of meeting all sorts of game.
It's nice to find it, drop it & have the dog bring it back out of a ditch or across a big drain.

Watching trialing dogs work figures of 8 in open ground is interesting but not for me...

Trialing Pointing dogs here are not required to retrieve I believe.
It also seems to be mainly snipe & grouse given the terrain.

Just my thoughts, but I can also see the draw of competition if you have the time...

What do you mean flapper trials??

stevoman

i agree. rough shooting is a real test of a dogs stamina, style, intellegence and capabilitys.

a smart pointer or setter will know to move a bird if its in cover and know where to flush it to his master with a gun.

a fit dog shoul be able for a full day of a hunt instead of a few runs on a hill.

a rough shooting dog should have enough style to quater over ground thats worth quatering and work close in cover over ground that could hold birds in cover.

i cant knock the triallers in some sense as they keep breeds alive in some cases but i havent had all that good experience with them myself.

i watched a few trialling setter men who approached me about my dog before more or less molest her turning her this way and that way looking for faults in her.

he opened her mouth and said she was undershot, which she is in fairness but he dismissed her as ever being capable of doing anything and the second dismissed her as she was a llewellin with no papers, telling me to get real theirs no such thing as a llewellin and she useless without papers. :mad:

irish setter

there are hpr trials which i think would be more on to the type of trailing your talking about. not to sure exactly how they work though and include the german pointers and other pointing dogs not included in the pointer and setter trials. in pointer and setter trials the trial is based on what the dog was originally bred to do. setters and pointers are used commonly these days for rough shooting but when they were bred that type of sport didn't exist here. there is a competition in england called the polmaise cup where the competitor runs two dogs, a flushing dog and a retriever and he shoots the quarry also.

Alchemist2

Trialling dogs can never be used to rough shoot as alot of rough shooting includes hunting ditches and the dogs soon realise birds frequent the ditches hence start hunting in straight lines this contradicts the quartering motions taught to the dog that would otherwise be used for trials if a trialling dog is to be used for rough shooting its under controlled conditions usually the handler doesnt have a gun but works the dog which isnt really rough shooting... but its a pretty cool idea you got there mate maybe you should follow up on it

deeksofdoom

EPointer=Birdss wrote: »

What do you mean flapper trials??

Flapper trial is an unregistered trial same as a flapper clay shoot which is an unregistered clay shoot.

EPointer=Birdss

Alchemist2 wrote: »

but its a pretty cool idea you got there mate maybe you should follow up on it

Everybody just send me 100 quid & I will organize it! haha
I promise I will not go to the Bahamas for xmas!

foxshooter243

Alchemist2 wrote: »

Trialling dogs can never be used to rough shoot as alot of rough shooting includes hunting ditches and the dogs soon realise birds frequent the ditches hence start hunting in straight lines this contradicts the quartering motions taught to the dog that would otherwise be used for trials if a trialling dog is to be used for rough shooting its under controlled conditions usually the handler doesnt have a gun but works the dog which isnt really rough shooting... but its a pretty cool idea you got there mate maybe you should follow up on it

I feel the need to counter your post as I totally disagree with what your saying. Spaniel trials have served to improve the working spaniel to a great extent, any lacklustre points in a spaniels ability are quickly shown up at a trial, a good trial will present exactly the same conditions encountered during a days hunting, dont go by the events you may witness at a game fair as they are simply staged for a big event when it would be impractical to take a large amount of people out on to a hill to spectate. A good trial dog makes a good shooting dog as the requirements for both are exactly the same ,as for dogs taking a line on a bird in a ditch, it could well be the case that it will be passing game whilst doing so, adog shouldnt be allowed to run in a line in front of the handler as it will only serve to put birds up out of gunshot range.
The reason for trials is to identify dogs with the required abilities to be used in the field and to sort out those not up to scratch and thereby promote the further breeding of top notch gundogs.

EPointer=Birdss

foxshooter243 wrote: »

I feel the need to counter your post as I totally disagree with what your saying. Spaniel trials have served to improve the working spaniel to a great extent, any lacklustre points in a spaniels ability are quickly shown up at a trial, a good trial will present exactly the same conditions encountered during a days hunting, dont go by the events you may witness at a game fair as they are simply staged for a big event when it would be impractical to take a large amount of people out on to a hill to spectate. A good trial dog makes a good shooting dog as the requirements for both are exactly the same ,as for dogs taking a line on a bird in a ditch, it could well be the case that it will be passing game whilst doing so, adog shouldnt be allowed to run in a line in front of the handler as it will only serve to put birds up out of gunshot range.
The reason for trials is to identify dogs with the required abilities to be used in the field and to sort out those not up to scratch and thereby promote the further breeding of top notch gundogs.

To re buttle again we are talking about setting dogs here not spaniels.
Spaniels can very easily make the transition. Not to get off topic but the only problem I see & have seen when I was looking to buy one is that the majority are afraid to get their little noses cut in heavy cover that is experienced in a days rough shooting!

As for setting dogs the requirements are not the same by any stretch of the imagination! The mans point of dogs working in straight lines on ditches is very accurate. My pointer is not yet 2 & has learned to quarter rushy fields & work ditches in lines. This has taken months of hard work & a trained trialing dog would need to be failrly bright to go against all his training to start working staight lines.
If he is working ahead out of shot & flushing then he is not trained right to set. I pressume this was a reference to a spaniel.

I woud take a rough shooting dog with some flaws any day to a trialing dog as it would suit my purpose.

foxshooter243

EPointer=Birdss wrote: »

To re buttle again we are talking about setting dogs here not spaniels.
Spaniels can very easily make the transition. Not to get off topic but the only problem I see & have seen when I was looking to buy one is that the majority are afraid to get their little noses cut in heavy cover that is experienced in a days rough shooting!

As for setting dogs the requirements are not the same by any stretch of the imagination! The mans point of dogs working in straight lines on ditches is very accurate. My pointer is not yet 2 & has learned to quarter rushy fields & work ditches in lines. This has taken months of hard work & a trained trialing dog would need to be failrly bright to go against all his training to start working staight lines.
If he is working ahead out of shot & flushing then he is not trained right to set. I pressume this was a reference to a spaniel.

I woud take a rough shooting dog with some flaws any day to a trialing dog as it would suit my purpose.

The whole business of trialling is designed around a dog working perfectly in field conditions, to say you would rather have a roughshooting dog with flaws over a good trial dog is strange to say the least, its a bit like saying
youd rather enter the grand national on a donkey instead of a racehorse!:

and dont forget thats what all trial dogs are, roughshooting dogs.

EPointer=Birdss

foxshooter243 wrote: »

The whole business of trialling is designed around a dog working perfectly in field conditions, to say you would rather have a roughshooting dog with flaws over a good trial dog is strange to say the least, its a bit like saying
youd rather enter the grand national on a donkey instead of a racehorse!:

and dont forget thats what all trial dogs are, roughshooting dogs.

Your completely missing the point here!
I agree with you on springers spainels etc as the hunting is very similiar in both trials & rough shooting.

Setting dogs is different unless you are working the side of a hill of big open field.
Trialing dogs are not required to retrieve, they are not required to work around water. They work across the handler & not straight out ahead of him.

As regards flaws let me explain. I do not train dogs to be steady to wing or shot. I don't need it & I like them to be on a bird when the drop. I have the kop on not to shoot anything low & left off 2 handy shots due to last weekend. These would be flaws in the trialing world.
My pointer is a master at finding birds but would not make a trialer.
He has no interest in snipe, will chase a hare for 10 feet or so & then turn just for the fun of it but knows if he keeps going he'll get in trouble but thats is character & it makes me laugh when I see him turn after a few steps of a chase before I call & look at me as if to say I wasn't doing anything!. He will retrieve in water across drains & will work cover like a springer if he thinks there's a bird in it. Things trialing dogs are not required to & hence not trained to so cannot always make the transition...
I'm sure there are exceptions though...

foxshooter243

EPointer=Birdss wrote: »

Your completely missing the point here!
I agree with you on springers spainels etc as the hunting is very similiar in both trials & rough shooting.

Setting dogs is different unless you are working the side of a hill of big open field.
Trialing dogs are not required to retrieve, they are not required to work around water. They work across the handler & not straight out ahead of him.

As regards flaws let me explain. I do not train dogs to be steady to wing or shot. I don't need it & I like them to be on a bird when the drop. I have the kop on not to shoot anything low & left off 2 handy shots due to last weekend. These would be flaws in the trialing world.
My pointer is a master at finding birds but would not make a trialer.
He has no interest in snipe, will chase a hare for 10 feet or so & then turn just for the fun of it but knows if he keeps going he'll get in trouble but thats is character & it makes me laugh when I see him turn after a few steps of a chase before I call & look at me as if to say I wasn't doing anything!. He will retrieve in water across drains & will work cover like a springer if he thinks there's a bird in it. Things trialing dogs are not required to & hence not trained to so cannot always make the transition...
I'm sure there are exceptions though...

I think you are missing the point, you say for example that you dont train your dog to be steady to the drop, this means your dog will be unsteady and rush in on a wounded bird like a flash,, thats grand but what happens if you shoot at a pair of birds, drop one and prick the other which travels on several fields before falling, your dog will `be on the dead bird and ignore the wounded bird when the reverse should be the case. There are good reasons for steadiness in the field and any dog that is trained well enough to enter a trial and be tested will be at no disadvantage to some other dog which is unsteady, and just because a setter isnt required to swim in a trial doesnt mean they cant! I began by shooting over so called good roughshooting dogs over thirty years ago and soon learned that any dog which is well trained , which is after all what a trial dog is, its only a dog with the required level of training to stand up to be tested, is much more pleasureable to shoot over than one thats allowed to do what it wants. Ive often heard the arguement that my dog is better than any trial dog, well put him into the trial and see.:)

EPointer=Birdss

foxshooter243 wrote: »

I think you are missing the point, you say for example that you dont train your dog to be steady to the drop, this means your dog will be unsteady and rush in on a wounded bird like a flash,, thats grand but what happens if you shoot at a pair of birds, drop one and prick the other which travels on several fields before falling, your dog will `be on the dead bird and ignore the wounded bird when the reverse should be the case. There are good reasons for steadiness in the field and any dog that is trained well enough to enter a trial and be tested will be at no disadvantage to some other dog which is unsteady, and just because a setter isnt required to swim in a trial doesnt mean they cant! I began by shooting over so called good roughshooting dogs over thirty years ago and soon learned that any dog which is well trained , which is after all what a trial dog is, its only a dog with the required level of training to stand up to be tested, is much more pleasureable to shoot over than one thats allowed to do what it wants. Ive often heard the arguement that my dog is better than any trial dog, well put him into the trial and see.:)

Who said anything about one allowed do what it wants?
Of you are making reference to my comments about the dogs character & the fact it can break on wing & shot?
To clarify when I give the command to flush, the dog is to bust the ditch or rush to flush it. It does not have free license to go before released. This to me is enough control for my purpose. If the dog is worth is salt & you wing a runner, he should track it down after the dead one is retrieved once you mark where it falls & TBH how often do you get a double? If it glides on & for a field before it falls you have to mark it either way & even if the dog stands there & marks it the bird could be a field away before he gets there.

Why not test a trialing dog in my conditions as opposed to the other way around? This is the point of the thread, not to trial rough shooting dogs in trials but the opposite.

By your logic any dog with enough training is trial worthy. Not the case, as mentioned above a dog with an undershot jaw or that is whiney is not trial worthy. Some dogs are just not born good enough either.
To start using comparisons, every pure bred race horse with enough training should win the GN. Untrue I'm afraid.

The purpose of this thread to investigate if there was such events for these types of dogs.

Just like to add, I enjoy a healthy debate & any comments are opinions so by all means argue away. We may not agree in the end but so what?
Better over a pint but we will continue as best we can.;)

foxshooter243

EPointer=Birdss wrote: »

Who said anything about one allowed do what it wants?
Of you are making reference to my comments about the dogs character & the fact it can break on wing & shot?
To clarify when I give the command to flush, the dog is to bust the ditch or rush to flush it. It does not have free license to go before released. This to me is enough control for my purpose. If the dog is worth is salt & you wing a runner, he should track it down after the dead one is retrieved once you mark where it falls & TBH how often do you get a double? If it glides on & for a field before it falls you have to mark it either way & even if the dog stands there & marks it the bird could be a field away before he gets there.

Why not test a trialing dog in my conditions as opposed to the other way around? This is the point of the thread, not to trial rough shooting dogs in trials but the opposite.

By your logic any dog with enough training is trial worthy. Not the case, as mentioned above a dog with an undershot jaw or that is whiney is not trial worthy. Some dogs are just not born good enough either.
To start using comparisons, every pure bred race horse with enough training should win the GN. Untrue I'm afraid.

The purpose of this thread to investigate if there was such events for these types of dogs.

Just like to add, I enjoy a healthy debate & any comments are opinions so by all means argue away. We may not agree in the end but so what?
Better over a pint but we will continue as best we can.;)

I take all your points in good stead:D-its just that my point is that a trial dog is really just a well trained roughshooting dog theres no elitism in the sport, Ive trialled dogs that came from trial bred litters , but all theses dogs and others being trialled went home after the event and spent their time in the field on shooting days, theres no difference in trial dogs and roughshooting dogs except for the level of training and handling;)

EPointer=Birdss

foxshooter243 wrote: »

I take all your points in good stead:D-its just that my point is that a trial dog is really just a well trained roughshooting dog theres no elitism in the sport, Ive trialled dogs that came from trial bred litters , but all theses dogs and others being trialled went home after the event and spent their time in the field on shooting days, theres no difference in trial dogs and roughshooting dogs except for the level of training and handling;)

I agree that a trial dog is a RS dog trained to higher level on obedience, quartering, less handling etc
I don't agree that once it is trained to this level & for trial conditions that it can always make the transition back to RS conditions as I think there are key differences.

My thread was started to enquire if events occurred for the dogs that are not the current trialing stock, where the focus of the trial may be on the combination on RS scenarios & all that jazz that we wont get into again as opposed to the trialing circles. The average shooting man wants a nice handy dog that will work with him for a days shooting & trained to such a level. Be nice if there was a way of assessing these dogs on a day out where it isn't as serious. A few entries into these & you could get the bug to take the next step. Be a sort of novice trial for dogs of all ages...

Anyway we can agree to disagree.

foxshooter243

EPointer=Birdss wrote: »

I agree that a trial dog is a RS dog trained to higher level on obedience, quartering, less handling etc
I don't agree that once it is trained to this level & for trial conditions that it can always make the transition back to RS conditions as I think there are key differences.

My thread was started to enquire if events occurred for the dogs that are not the current trialing stock, where the focus of the trial may be on the combination on RS scenarios & all that jazz that we wont get into again as opposed to the trialing circles. The average shooting man wants a nice handy dog that will work with him for a days shooting & trained to such a level. Be nice if there was a way of assessing these dogs on a day out where it isn't as serious. A few entries into these & you could get the bug to take the next step. Be a sort of novice trial for dogs of all ages...

Anyway we can agree to disagree.

Ok ill agree to that:D-the only thing I seen remotely like what your talking about were gundog scurry events held in northern Ireland, there would be certain tests laid out and you could put your dog into these for the fun of it , but the problem you have with these type of things is where is the cut off point in whats a roughshooting dog and whats a trial dog as essentially they are one in the same.I mean I seen these gundog scurry events being won by non gundog breeds:eek:-as in essence very little true gundog work was involved, it was mainly based on retriieving and waterwork /speed.
So the problem you have is you have to keep raising the bar otherwise if the bar is too low every dog can jump over;)-so to speak.Eventually youll end up at field trial standard which is what a dog is expected to be able to do in the field. Anyways ill lleave it at that:)

EPointer=Birdss

foxshooter243 wrote: »

Ok ill agree to that:D-the only thing I seen remotely like what your talking about were gundog scurry events held in northern Ireland, there would be certain tests laid out and you could put your dog into these for the fun of it , but the problem you have with these type of things is where is the cut off point in whats a roughshooting dog and whats a trial dog as essentially they are one in the same.I mean I seen these gundog scurry events being won by non gundog breeds:eek:-as in essence very little true gundog work was involved, it was mainly based on retriieving and waterwork /speed.
So the problem you have is you have to keep raising the bar otherwise if the bar is too low every dog can jump over;)-so to speak.Eventually youll end up at field trial standard which is what a dog is expected to be able to do in the field. Anyways ill lleave it at that:)

Fair enough. We'll meet again Mr Bond!

irish setter

i don't want to add fuel to the argument but a good experienced dog can and will adjust to the ground just like it adjusts to the weather. the key is in the handler of the dog. in trial conditions the dog must be under total control while hunting. not so with rough shooting as you want the dog to adjust itself, you want it to have a little more of a free reign. a clever dog learn's this quickly. you can't expect an experienced trialling dog to hunt a ditch on its first day out rough shooting but if given time and handled less it will in time learn the difference. the rough shooting dog can't make the transition as it needs to be trained as a pup for trialling. quiet a few trialler's shoot over their dogs

Wolfhillbilly

I know I'm joining this late as I haven't been on the site in a while but it is a subject I’m very interested in. I bought a red setter about 10 years ago for rough shooting. He came from trial stock in Limerick and I went about training him as best I could. I decided then to trial him, basically to see how he would perform and also to give me a few days out during the summer (it’s a long time from January to October).
Anyway, one of the questions I would always ask the trial men was whether they shot over their dogs, as I had been told that a setter/pointer had to be ‘one or the other’. To be honest, there wasn’t a strong consensus. Most trailers who I met tended not to shoot, but those that did all shot over their dogs. The setter man whose opinion I would value most, Billy Hosick, when I asked him did he shoot over his dogs, he replied, ‘that’s what they’re for, isn’t it?’
I continued to shoot over my dog and trialed him during the spring and summer but once the late autumn trials were on and the pheasant season started up north, that was me – I’d be a shooter before a trailer. For the record I have entered probably about 20 trials, I’ve never won one, got a second place once and made the second round about 10 or 11 times.
From my own experience, it is possible to do both, dogs learn and adapt to the conditions. The big drawback is the dog pacing himself. After a few seasons of rough shooting (and I would generally hunt my setter for five to six hours every Saturday), the rough shooting dog will start to pace himself and therefore put himself at a major disadvantage. It is not impossible to win a trial if your dog isn’t the fastest, but it’s a big hurdle.
The last trial I competed in about two years ago, he gave an absolute textbook display of quartering on the mountain, but was made to look slow by his brace-mate. That said, he was eight years old and, has hunted every Saturday for years.
Christ, this is a long post!! Anyway, in my opinion a dog can do both. When a dog is brought onto a mountain, it will quarter the mountain, when it is rough-shooting, it will learn with experience where the birds are, and how to hunt the terrain. Yes, it is infuriating if you have a trial-bred dog and he is a speed demon – but he learns.
I have two pups at the minute and will trial and rough shoot over them both (provided they are any good!). The difference I will make is that I will split the day’s rough-shooting between them so that they are not hunting for so long. Pace is a requisite of a trial dog, and hours and hours of rough-shooting week after week obviously doesn’t help that.
This has gone slightly off topic - EPointer=Birdss was asking about a trial for a normal day’s shooting. I haven’t competed in trials ‘in the Free State’ as we call it, but certainly there are a few venues up north that will give your dog all the testing he wants.
A few years ago I went grouse shooting over my dogs in Scotland. I had a laugh when the gamekeeper apologized for the length of the heather before we started – it made Murley Mountain, Co Tyrone or Glenwherry, Co Antrim look like heather jungles!! Trialing – in the north at least – isn’t the gentle stroll across the purple heather that some people think, it is over turf banks, down drains – you name it. Most of the hills up here haven’t been burned in years. It takes a good dog to keep flat out in heavy heather for the 15 minutes – which the winning dogs will have to do at least three times. It certainly made me change my mind about trial dogs lacking stamina.
Also EPointer=Birdss, there is a trial that takes place on a rough shoot which you should try next year. It is run at Glarryford, Co Antrim and usually takes place on the last week of September or first week of October. Granted there is no shooting but it is basically rough ground where the local club have put down pheasants. The ground is fairly flat which allows for easy judging. It’s run by the NI Pointer Club – see you there next year!!

foxshooter243

Wolfhillbilly wrote: »

I know I'm joining this late as I haven't been on the site in a while but it is a subject I’m very interested in. I bought a red setter about 10 years ago for rough shooting. He came from trial stock in Limerick and I went about training him as best I could. I decided then to trial him, basically to see how he would perform and also to give me a few days out during the summer (it’s a long time from January to October).
Anyway, one of the questions I would always ask the trial men was whether they shot over their dogs, as I had been told that a setter/pointer had to be ‘one or the other’. To be honest, there wasn’t a strong consensus. Most trailers who I met tended not to shoot, but those that did all shot over their dogs. The setter man whose opinion I would value most, Billy Hosick, when I asked him did he shoot over his dogs, he replied, ‘that’s what they’re for, isn’t it?’
I continued to shoot over my dog and trialed him during the spring and summer but once the late autumn trials were on and the pheasant season started up north, that was me – I’d be a shooter before a trailer. For the record I have entered probably about 20 trials, I’ve never won one, got a second place once and made the second round about 10 or 11 times.
From my own experience, it is possible to do both, dogs learn and adapt to the conditions. The big drawback is the dog pacing himself. After a few seasons of rough shooting (and I would generally hunt my setter for five to six hours every Saturday), the rough shooting dog will start to pace himself and therefore put himself at a major disadvantage. It is not impossible to win a trial if your dog isn’t the fastest, but it’s a big hurdle.
The last trial I competed in about two years ago, he gave an absolute textbook display of quartering on the mountain, but was made to look slow by his brace-mate. That said, he was eight years old and, has hunted every Saturday for years.
Christ, this is a long post!! Anyway, in my opinion a dog can do both. When a dog is brought onto a mountain, it will quarter the mountain, when it is rough-shooting, it will learn with experience where the birds are, and how to hunt the terrain. Yes, it is infuriating if you have a trial-bred dog and he is a speed demon – but he learns.
I have two pups at the minute and will trial and rough shoot over them both (provided they are any good!). The difference I will make is that I will split the day’s rough-shooting between them so that they are not hunting for so long. Pace is a requisite of a trial dog, and hours and hours of rough-shooting week after week obviously doesn’t help that.
This has gone slightly off topic - EPointer=Birdss was asking about a trial for a normal day’s shooting. I haven’t competed in trials ‘in the Free State’ as we call it, but certainly there are a few venues up north that will give your dog all the testing he wants.
A few years ago I went grouse shooting over my dogs in Scotland. I had a laugh when the gamekeeper apologized for the length of the heather before we started – it made Murley Mountain, Co Tyrone or Glenwherry, Co Antrim look like heather jungles!! Trialing – in the north at least – isn’t the gentle stroll across the purple heather that some people think, it is over turf banks, down drains – you name it. Most of the hills up here haven’t been burned in years. It takes a good dog to keep flat out in heavy heather for the 15 minutes – which the winning dogs will have to do at least three times. It certainly made me change my mind about trial dogs lacking stamina.
Also EPointer=Birdss, there is a trial that takes place on a rough shoot which you should try next year. It is run at Glarryford, Co Antrim and usually takes place on the last week of September or first week of October. Granted there is no shooting but it is basically rough ground where the local club have put down pheasants. The ground is fairly flat which allows for easy judging. It’s run by the NI Pointer Club – see you there next year!!

Great post Wolfhillbilly!:)

Gortglas

Excellent thread.

My opinion is its horses for courses, and my preference is for a rough shooting dog, that really doesnt have to be perfect to wing and shot, and all the other trial facets.

I shot for 6 hours yesterday with my GSP pup (18 months), a typical day shooting for me, we hunted bog for the first two hours, and shot 3 snipe, the dog is not completely steady on them but effective none the less. We then shot about 100 acres of newly knocked maze, with plenty of deep dykes, and heavy ditches. The dog was steady on 4 cock pheasant of which we shot 3, and on 5 or 6 hens. When we knock a bird if it is dead she will move on a keep hunting if there is more birds, of not she will sit at the bird, fecker wont retrieve, so work needed there, but if there is more birds she will move on after marking the shot bird and keep hunting. If we wound one she will track it and mark it. This is not perfect by any means, but is perfect for our purpose. We also hunted a 30 acre ash plantation, she will hunt the sides which we want, and will nearly always flush birds out to us, we shot two cocks out of it yesterday, both flushed perfectly to us.

So, I am not sure if a trialling bred dog would suit my purpose, and am happy with the RS bred dog that I have, but then again, I would strongly consider introducing a triall dog to the line when I do breed from her, as I have great admiration for the qualities of some of types of trialling pointers.

It is a great debate, any one I am not even sure which side I am on in it...

EPointer=Birdss

Good post WH.
I have noticed a distinctive change in pace in the last few weeks in the pointer. He is out of Knock Dante, dog of the year in the setting trials 2 years running awile back. He used absolutely belt for the 1st hour but has learned to pace himself now.
Problem when he was belting ditches is he'd run up on top of pheasants constantly! When he hunted rush he would cover the field in no time over & back across me & work well. So fast he looked like a grey hound, with the back arching! Problem is he'd kill himself doing this.
I used think he was running over trails & passing birds in ditches. Was convinced he wouldn't make the cut. Now that he has learned to pass himself he tips up & down ditches & will swing across the field when he's satisfied there's nothing in the ditch. If the field is bare he won't bother hunting it.
In summary I think he could of technically made a fine trialing dog but I have trained in, & he has learned some habits which would not suit both applications.
Now that's not to say he wouln't learn the difference between the 2 days out given time...

Keep up the posts lads, some arguements thrown forward...

deeksofdoom

Excellent post Wolfhillbilly and an excellent thread EPointer=Birdss!

foxshooter243

In 1946 just as the second world war was over, Peter Moxon wrote and published a book called "training the roughshooters dog", The book was offered as a simple and straightforward manual for the average novice roughshooter who desired to have a gundog to assist him in his sport.
These roughshooters had no aspirations towards field trials but were simply shooting for the pot in a country where due to sringent meat rationing it was more of a neccessity. The first question he asked himself was what makes a suitable all round dog?

Irish water spaniels and curly coated retrievers were ruled out due to needing prolonged training and , and due to being stubborn and strong willed. Golden and flat coated retrievers which although easier trained do
not adapt themselves well to questing unshot game, although there are exceptions amongst the breed.
Pointers and setters werent considered for general work for, while he didnt thing they could be trained to make efficient all rounders, they need a great deal of handlng and their whole history is against them in that capacity.The setters range too wide, and to curb him is to slow him down to the point of pottering, and the pointers coat being too thin its almost cruel to work him in thick and thorny cover.On the other hand , the German pointer-retriever breeds make excellent general purpose gundogs.

So he considers the spaniel breeds, the clumbers are built too heavy for work, the sussex and field spaniels are good enough but dont court the same general favour as the springer, and the cocker has been bred to the point of being too highly strung and scatterbrained for work with the gun, although some good lines remain.

So where did that leave him, his answer was to be found in the English Springer Spaniel;). A breed which offered all the right qualities for the general purpose gundog ie: "the roughshooters dog". It has drive and energy , stamina and a good nose. they make for good water and retrieving dogs if used Inland , they are biddable and easily trained and its quite easy to find good working lines in every corner of the country.
They make good pets and are intelligent, they also hardy dogs when kept in good condition and work well in extremes of climate. So there you have it, pick a springer pup from good working/trial stock and train him up to the point that hes ready for field work and you will have a good roughshooting dog, he may not have the final polish of a trial dog , but then after all they are one and the same.:D:D

I rest my case your honour!:)

deeksofdoom

foxshooter243 wrote: »

So where did that leave him, his answer was to be found in the English Springer Spaniel;). A breed which offered all the right qualities for the general purpose gundog ie: "the roughshooters dog". It has drive and energy , stamina and a good nose. they make for good water and retrieving dogs if used Inland , they are biddable and easily trained and its quite easy to find good working lines in every corner of the country.
They make good pets and are intelligent, they also hardy dogs when kept in good condition and work well in extremes of climate. So there you have it, pick a springer pup from good working/trial stock and train him up to the point that hes ready for field work and you will have a good roughshooting dog, he may not have the final polish of a trial dog , but then after all they are one and the same.:D:D

I rest my case your honour!:)

Have to agree with you here the ESS isn't the most popular roughshooting gundog breed on this island for nothing.

irish setter

there is no doubt the ess is the best rough shooting dog there is out there. thats taking rough shooting meaning shooting all game birds, rabbits, crows, pigeon, and whatever else comes along that's legal to shoot. i think alot of lads think there rough shooting but there not, i don't. i wouldn't dream of shooting rabbits for example over my setters, in fact i will only shoot game birds. alot of lads call what i do rough shooting but it's not and nor do i want a rough shooting dog.

EPointer=Birdss

irish setter wrote: »

there is no doubt the ess is the best rough shooting dog there is out there. thats taking rough shooting meaning shooting all game birds, rabbits, crows, pigeon, and whatever else comes along that's legal to shoot. i think alot of lads think there rough shooting but there not, i don't. i wouldn't dream of shooting rabbits for example over my setters, in fact i will only shoot game birds. alot of lads call what i do rough shooting but it's not and nor do i want a rough shooting dog.

What would you call it? Walked up shooting, hunting, game bird hunting etc?
We're getting a bit technical....

EPointer=Birdss

foxshooter243 wrote: »

but then after all they are one and the same.:D:D

I rest my case your honour!:)

I agree, Springers are. You've come around after all... :D

foxshooter243

EPointer=Birdss wrote: »

I agree, Springers are. You've come around after all... :D

The thing is , that in the Doggy world nearly everyone is right, its just the angle that they are looking from that differs:D

EPointer=Birdss

foxshooter243 wrote: »

The thing is , that in the Doggy world nearly everyone is right, its just the angle that they are looking from that differs:D

Well said!

irish setter

EPointer=Birdss wrote: »

What would you call it? Walked up shooting, hunting, game bird hunting etc?
We're getting a bit technical....

i was simply picking up on foxshooters post where he quoted a book about which dog is the the best rough shooting and in the context of the book the springer is king. i was trying to make the point that to each one of us the best dog is the one that does the job we want it to do and the one we prefer to work with not what someone else tells us, especially when generalizing in a book

Donalmit

Hi EP,I have never heard of a roughshooting trial for pointers/setters in this country. Most of the trials for these breeds of dogs are held on vast open ground in bogs or mountain sides. There are trials held in a few counties for RPRs (hunt/point/retrievers) that more closely copy a rough days shooting. These dogs must vary their hunting range to suit the type of cover they are in. They will need to quarter 200m either side of their handler in open territory (stubble fields etc) and work like a springer in dense undergrowth (hazel etc). They are required to hold point post shot and fall and then be sent on command to retrieve to hand. I have a couple of DVDs of trials held in the UK for HPRs. PM me your address and I will post on to you. In the US they have a competition called "Shoot to retrieve" (Google it for details). This can be both amateur or professional and involves releasing a number of birds in a designated area. The hunter/dog (can be pointer/setter/mongrel) is then judged on how long it takes to get all birds; how many shots he fires and if the dog retrieves to hand or not. It is often a winner takes all and the prize fund can be quite substantial.The debate around whether you can successfully use trial dogs for weekly rough shooting is down to how seriously you take your trialling. Serious trialling men rarely use their top dogs for rough shooting as it is much more difficult to keep control when you are also focusing in putting a bird in the bag and also as stated before the more intelligent dogs begin to pace themselves and you will struggle to get them back up to speed for a trial afterwards. There is an old saying that I believe goes like "the quickest way to spoil a good hunting dog is to bring them out shooting" as their manners start to slip very quickly.I try to keep all my dogs teady to flush and shot for their safety (they could run across a main road in pursuit) and it also avoids them flushing game out of range on their journey. In reality, it is all about the enjoyment we all get from being out with our dogs and the excitement of trying to outwit our quarry. IMO the better fireside stories are about what goes wrong in a days shooting (and still get the bird) than what goes right LOL...

Mitch

EPointer=Birdss

Donalmit wrote: »

Hi EP,I have never heard of a roughshooting trial for pointers/setters in this country. Most of the trials for these breeds of dogs are held on vast open ground in bogs or mountain sides. There are trials held in a few counties for RPRs (hunt/point/retrievers) that more closely copy a rough days shooting. These dogs must vary their hunting range to suit the type of cover they are in. They will need to quarter 200m either side of their handler in open territory (stubble fields etc) and work like a springer in dense undergrowth (hazel etc). They are required to hold point post shot and fall and then be sent on command to retrieve to hand. I have a couple of DVDs of trials held in the UK for HPRs. PM me your address and I will post on to you. In the US they have a competition called "Shoot to retrieve" (Google it for details). This can be both amateur or professional and involves releasing a number of birds in a designated area. The hunter/dog (can be pointer/setter/mongrel) is then judged on how long it takes to get all birds; how many shots he fires and if the dog retrieves to hand or not. It is often a winner takes all and the prize fund can be quite substantial.The debate around whether you can successfully use trial dogs for weekly rough shooting is down to how seriously you take your trialling. Serious trialling men rarely use their top dogs for rough shooting as it is much more difficult to keep control when you are also focusing in putting a bird in the bag and also as stated before the more intelligent dogs begin to pace themselves and you will struggle to get them back up to speed for a trial afterwards. There is an old saying that I believe goes like "the quickest way to spoil a good hunting dog is to bring them out shooting" as their manners start to slip very quickly.I try to keep all my dogs teady to flush and shot for their safety (they could run across a main road in pursuit) and it also avoids them flushing game out of range on their journey. In reality, it is all about the enjoyment we all get from being out with our dogs and the excitement of trying to outwit our quarry. IMO the better fireside stories are about what goes wrong in a days shooting (and still get the bird) than what goes right LOL...

Mitch

Well said & as enlightened as ever Mitch! Thanks for the reply...