EPointer=Birdss wrote: » Where finding, working birds, handling, flushing on command, shooting & retrieving them all fed into the scoring. Could add a range of ground to it also, I.e bog, rush, crop cover etc
EPointer=Birdss wrote: » What do you mean flapper trials??
Alchemist2 wrote: » but its a pretty cool idea you got there mate maybe you should follow up on it
Alchemist2 wrote: » Trialling dogs can never be used to rough shoot as alot of rough shooting includes hunting ditches and the dogs soon realise birds frequent the ditches hence start hunting in straight lines this contradicts the quartering motions taught to the dog that would otherwise be used for trials if a trialling dog is to be used for rough shooting its under controlled conditions usually the handler doesnt have a gun but works the dog which isnt really rough shooting... but its a pretty cool idea you got there mate maybe you should follow up on it
foxshooter243 wrote: » I feel the need to counter your post as I totally disagree with what your saying. Spaniel trials have served to improve the working spaniel to a great extent, any lacklustre points in a spaniels ability are quickly shown up at a trial, a good trial will present exactly the same conditions encountered during a days hunting, dont go by the events you may witness at a game fair as they are simply staged for a big event when it would be impractical to take a large amount of people out on to a hill to spectate. A good trial dog makes a good shooting dog as the requirements for both are exactly the same ,as for dogs taking a line on a bird in a ditch, it could well be the case that it will be passing game whilst doing so, adog shouldnt be allowed to run in a line in front of the handler as it will only serve to put birds up out of gunshot range. The reason for trials is to identify dogs with the required abilities to be used in the field and to sort out those not up to scratch and thereby promote the further breeding of top notch gundogs.
EPointer=Birdss wrote: » To re buttle again we are talking about setting dogs here not spaniels. Spaniels can very easily make the transition. Not to get off topic but the only problem I see & have seen when I was looking to buy one is that the majority are afraid to get their little noses cut in heavy cover that is experienced in a days rough shooting! As for setting dogs the requirements are not the same by any stretch of the imagination! The mans point of dogs working in straight lines on ditches is very accurate. My pointer is not yet 2 & has learned to quarter rushy fields & work ditches in lines. This has taken months of hard work & a trained trialing dog would need to be failrly bright to go against all his training to start working staight lines. If he is working ahead out of shot & flushing then he is not trained right to set. I pressume this was a reference to a spaniel. I woud take a rough shooting dog with some flaws any day to a trialing dog as it would suit my purpose.
foxshooter243 wrote: » The whole business of trialling is designed around a dog working perfectly in field conditions, to say you would rather have a roughshooting dog with flaws over a good trial dog is strange to say the least, its a bit like saying youd rather enter the grand national on a donkey instead of a racehorse!: and dont forget thats what all trial dogs are, roughshooting dogs.
EPointer=Birdss wrote: » Your completely missing the point here! I agree with you on springers spainels etc as the hunting is very similiar in both trials & rough shooting. Setting dogs is different unless you are working the side of a hill of big open field. Trialing dogs are not required to retrieve, they are not required to work around water. They work across the handler & not straight out ahead of him. As regards flaws let me explain. I do not train dogs to be steady to wing or shot. I don't need it & I like them to be on a bird when the drop. I have the kop on not to shoot anything low & left off 2 handy shots due to last weekend. These would be flaws in the trialing world. My pointer is a master at finding birds but would not make a trialer. He has no interest in snipe, will chase a hare for 10 feet or so & then turn just for the fun of it but knows if he keeps going he'll get in trouble but thats is character & it makes me laugh when I see him turn after a few steps of a chase before I call & look at me as if to say I wasn't doing anything!. He will retrieve in water across drains & will work cover like a springer if he thinks there's a bird in it. Things trialing dogs are not required to & hence not trained to so cannot always make the transition... I'm sure there are exceptions though...
foxshooter243 wrote: » I think you are missing the point, you say for example that you dont train your dog to be steady to the drop, this means your dog will be unsteady and rush in on a wounded bird like a flash,, thats grand but what happens if you shoot at a pair of birds, drop one and prick the other which travels on several fields before falling, your dog will `be on the dead bird and ignore the wounded bird when the reverse should be the case. There are good reasons for steadiness in the field and any dog that is trained well enough to enter a trial and be tested will be at no disadvantage to some other dog which is unsteady, and just because a setter isnt required to swim in a trial doesnt mean they cant! I began by shooting over so called good roughshooting dogs over thirty years ago and soon learned that any dog which is well trained , which is after all what a trial dog is, its only a dog with the required level of training to stand up to be tested, is much more pleasureable to shoot over than one thats allowed to do what it wants. Ive often heard the arguement that my dog is better than any trial dog, well put him into the trial and see.:)
EPointer=Birdss wrote: » Who said anything about one allowed do what it wants? Of you are making reference to my comments about the dogs character & the fact it can break on wing & shot? To clarify when I give the command to flush, the dog is to bust the ditch or rush to flush it. It does not have free license to go before released. This to me is enough control for my purpose. If the dog is worth is salt & you wing a runner, he should track it down after the dead one is retrieved once you mark where it falls & TBH how often do you get a double? If it glides on & for a field before it falls you have to mark it either way & even if the dog stands there & marks it the bird could be a field away before he gets there. Why not test a trialing dog in my conditions as opposed to the other way around? This is the point of the thread, not to trial rough shooting dogs in trials but the opposite. By your logic any dog with enough training is trial worthy. Not the case, as mentioned above a dog with an undershot jaw or that is whiney is not trial worthy. Some dogs are just not born good enough either. To start using comparisons, every pure bred race horse with enough training should win the GN. Untrue I'm afraid. The purpose of this thread to investigate if there was such events for these types of dogs. Just like to add, I enjoy a healthy debate & any comments are opinions so by all means argue away. We may not agree in the end but so what? Better over a pint but we will continue as best we can.;)
foxshooter243 wrote: » I take all your points in good stead:D-its just that my point is that a trial dog is really just a well trained roughshooting dog theres no elitism in the sport, Ive trialled dogs that came from trial bred litters , but all theses dogs and others being trialled went home after the event and spent their time in the field on shooting days, theres no difference in trial dogs and roughshooting dogs except for the level of training and handling;)
EPointer=Birdss wrote: » I agree that a trial dog is a RS dog trained to higher level on obedience, quartering, less handling etc I don't agree that once it is trained to this level & for trial conditions that it can always make the transition back to RS conditions as I think there are key differences. My thread was started to enquire if events occurred for the dogs that are not the current trialing stock, where the focus of the trial may be on the combination on RS scenarios & all that jazz that we wont get into again as opposed to the trialing circles. The average shooting man wants a nice handy dog that will work with him for a days shooting & trained to such a level. Be nice if there was a way of assessing these dogs on a day out where it isn't as serious. A few entries into these & you could get the bug to take the next step. Be a sort of novice trial for dogs of all ages... Anyway we can agree to disagree.
foxshooter243 wrote: » Ok ill agree to that:D-the only thing I seen remotely like what your talking about were gundog scurry events held in northern Ireland, there would be certain tests laid out and you could put your dog into these for the fun of it , but the problem you have with these type of things is where is the cut off point in whats a roughshooting dog and whats a trial dog as essentially they are one in the same.I mean I seen these gundog scurry events being won by non gundog breeds:eek:-as in essence very little true gundog work was involved, it was mainly based on retriieving and waterwork /speed. So the problem you have is you have to keep raising the bar otherwise if the bar is too low every dog can jump over;)-so to speak.Eventually youll end up at field trial standard which is what a dog is expected to be able to do in the field. Anyways ill lleave it at that:)
Wolfhillbilly wrote: » I know I'm joining this late as I haven't been on the site in a while but it is a subject I’m very interested in. I bought a red setter about 10 years ago for rough shooting. He came from trial stock in Limerick and I went about training him as best I could. I decided then to trial him, basically to see how he would perform and also to give me a few days out during the summer (it’s a long time from January to October).Anyway, one of the questions I would always ask the trial men was whether they shot over their dogs, as I had been told that a setter/pointer had to be ‘one or the other’. To be honest, there wasn’t a strong consensus. Most trailers who I met tended not to shoot, but those that did all shot over their dogs. The setter man whose opinion I would value most, Billy Hosick, when I asked him did he shoot over his dogs, he replied, ‘that’s what they’re for, isn’t it?’I continued to shoot over my dog and trialed him during the spring and summer but once the late autumn trials were on and the pheasant season started up north, that was me – I’d be a shooter before a trailer. For the record I have entered probably about 20 trials, I’ve never won one, got a second place once and made the second round about 10 or 11 times.From my own experience, it is possible to do both, dogs learn and adapt to the conditions. The big drawback is the dog pacing himself. After a few seasons of rough shooting (and I would generally hunt my setter for five to six hours every Saturday), the rough shooting dog will start to pace himself and therefore put himself at a major disadvantage. It is not impossible to win a trial if your dog isn’t the fastest, but it’s a big hurdle.The last trial I competed in about two years ago, he gave an absolute textbook display of quartering on the mountain, but was made to look slow by his brace-mate. That said, he was eight years old and, has hunted every Saturday for years.Christ, this is a long post!! Anyway, in my opinion a dog can do both. When a dog is brought onto a mountain, it will quarter the mountain, when it is rough-shooting, it will learn with experience where the birds are, and how to hunt the terrain. Yes, it is infuriating if you have a trial-bred dog and he is a speed demon – but he learns.I have two pups at the minute and will trial and rough shoot over them both (provided they are any good!). The difference I will make is that I will split the day’s rough-shooting between them so that they are not hunting for so long. Pace is a requisite of a trial dog, and hours and hours of rough-shooting week after week obviously doesn’t help that.This has gone slightly off topic - EPointer=Birdss was asking about a trial for a normal day’s shooting. I haven’t competed in trials ‘in the Free State’ as we call it, but certainly there are a few venues up north that will give your dog all the testing he wants.A few years ago I went grouse shooting over my dogs in Scotland. I had a laugh when the gamekeeper apologized for the length of the heather before we started – it made Murley Mountain, Co Tyrone or Glenwherry, Co Antrim look like heather jungles!! Trialing – in the north at least – isn’t the gentle stroll across the purple heather that some people think, it is over turf banks, down drains – you name it. Most of the hills up here haven’t been burned in years. It takes a good dog to keep flat out in heavy heather for the 15 minutes – which the winning dogs will have to do at least three times. It certainly made me change my mind about trial dogs lacking stamina.Also EPointer=Birdss, there is a trial that takes place on a rough shoot which you should try next year. It is run at Glarryford, Co Antrim and usually takes place on the last week of September or first week of October. Granted there is no shooting but it is basically rough ground where the local club have put down pheasants. The ground is fairly flat which allows for easy judging. It’s run by the NI Pointer Club – see you there next year!!
foxshooter243 wrote: » So where did that leave him, his answer was to be found in the English Springer Spaniel;). A breed which offered all the right qualities for the general purpose gundog ie: "the roughshooters dog". It has drive and energy , stamina and a good nose. they make for good water and retrieving dogs if used Inland , they are biddable and easily trained and its quite easy to find good working lines in every corner of the country. They make good pets and are intelligent, they also hardy dogs when kept in good condition and work well in extremes of climate. So there you have it, pick a springer pup from good working/trial stock and train him up to the point that hes ready for field work and you will have a good roughshooting dog, he may not have the final polish of a trial dog , but then after all they are one and the same.:D:D I rest my case your honour!:)
irish setter wrote: » there is no doubt the ess is the best rough shooting dog there is out there. thats taking rough shooting meaning shooting all game birds, rabbits, crows, pigeon, and whatever else comes along that's legal to shoot. i think alot of lads think there rough shooting but there not, i don't. i wouldn't dream of shooting rabbits for example over my setters, in fact i will only shoot game birds. alot of lads call what i do rough shooting but it's not and nor do i want a rough shooting dog.
foxshooter243 wrote: » but then after all they are one and the same.:D:D I rest my case your honour!:)
EPointer=Birdss wrote: » I agree, Springers are. You've come around after all... :D
foxshooter243 wrote: » The thing is , that in the Doggy world nearly everyone is right, its just the angle that they are looking from that differs:D
