Outright pistol refusal

BrowningHP

What in the name of god is going on.Got a refusal for my pistol, which i have licensed for nearly five years,in the door yesterday.And no it's not a kind of request for further info, it states refusal.I have read the other threads and I had submitted a similar explanation letter with my application.
I haven't even been offered the option of a .22 pistol.Feeling pretty mad at the moment.I never spoke bad of the gardai, but if you could hear my sentiments now.It's wrong what they are doing.They are the criminals now forcing ordinary hardworking people to go to court to fight for their property.No way am i going to give up without a fight and i am not going to keep it quiet either.I would like to go so far as to suggest that a tempoary sub forum be created to deal specifically with this issue.
With about 1800 pistol licenses in the country under threat we need to act now and support eachother otherwise where will it stop.They won't be happy untill we are left with a sling-shot.

bunny shooter

Sorry for your troubles BUT



where have you been hiding ?

Sub Forum ? search the recent threads

marlin vs

BrowningHP wrote: »

What in the name of god is going on.Got a refusal for my pistol, which i have licensed for nearly five years,in the door yesterday.And no it's not a kind of request for further info, it states refusal.I have read the other threads and I had submitted a similar explanation letter with my application.
I haven't even been offered the option of a .22 pistol.Feeling pretty mad at the moment.I never spoke bad of the gardai, but if you could hear my sentiments now.It's wrong what they are doing.They are the criminals now forcing ordinary hardworking people to go to court to fight for their property.No way am i going to give up without a fight and i am not going to keep it quiet either.I would like to go so far as to suggest that a tempoary sub forum be created to deal specifically with this issue.
With about 1800 pistol licenses in the country under threat we need to act now and support eachother otherwise where will it stop.They won't be happy untill we are left with a sling-shot.

Good first post.

Bananaman

Please pass the relevant information on to the NASRPC.

You can get details at www.nasrpc.ie

They are collating the information with respect to refusals to C/F Pistol Licenses.

B'Man

Kimber

I used to love her, I used to lover once
A long, long time ago

There gone, all or guns are gone oh oh oh oh
Gone, gone, gone gone

All our guns are gone
Gone, gone, gone gone

I have fallin for another,
You can make your way home.
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

rrpc

Need to do a bit more editing there Kimber

Cass

BrowningHP wrote: »

..............Got a refusal for my pistol, which i have licensed for nearly five years,in the door yesterday.And no it's not a kind of request for further info, it states refusal................

Very sorry to hear that Browning. Are you appealing? No need for specifics.

meathshooter

BrowningHP wrote: »

What in the name of god is going on.Got a refusal for my pistol, which i have licensed for nearly five years,in the door yesterday.And no it's not a kind of request for further info, it states refusal.I have read the other threads and I had submitted a similar explanation letter with my application.
I haven't even been offered the option of a .22 pistol.Feeling pretty mad at the moment.I never spoke bad of the gardai, but if you could hear my sentiments now.It's wrong what they are doing.They are the criminals now forcing ordinary hardworking people to go to court to fight for their property.No way am i going to give up without a fight and i am not going to keep it quiet either.I would like to go so far as to suggest that a tempoary sub forum be created to deal specifically with this issue.
With about 1800 pistol licenses in the country under threat we need to act now and support eachother otherwise where will it stop.They won't be happy untill we are left with a sling-shot.

what county you in got a call myself looking for more info on why I need a 9mm

medicman

hia all, received a phone call from the cs today :eek:, not even an interview, just a call telling me he is not renewing my 9mm pistol licence:mad:, he did offer me a .22 if i wanted, but it's just not the same, will be getting the letter monday, what now? sell up north / england?, go to court?
he did insist on calling it a WEAPON on the phone, told him it was a firearm, he wasnt impressed? told him the definition of weapon, still wasnt impressed, he was worried for public safety blah blah blah, i informed him that as a upstanding member of the community, in good standing with the garda, very safety aware etc that he need not be worried, he, again wasnt impressed, what do you have to do?, i hear that people are being granted licences around the place, if so where?

rrpc

medicman wrote: »

what do you have to do?, i hear that people are being granted licences around the place, if so where?

I'm sorry to hear that, I assume you'll be appealing.

What part of the country are you in medicman? County will do.

medicman

people republic of CORK, bandon, fermoy cs both blanket ban on 9's, i'll appeal, but is there a point?, the same letter is sent to everyone with a 9mm pistol, i'll appeal but i dont think it will make any difference.

Cass

medicman wrote: »

hia all, received a phone call from the cs today :eek:, not even an interview, just a call telling me he is not renewing my 9mm pistol licence:mad:,.........

Sorry to hear.

.......... he was worried for public safety ...........

Can someone with a legal mind please tell how the Gardai can get away with implying that as a pistol holder we would be a danger to public safety. Don't give me anything along the lines of "well, he didn't actually say that straight out.........." In every letter, refusal, phone call, the predominant feature throughout is this "safety to the public b******t. (thank you Charlton) In any language this is slander, tarnishing a reputation, profiling, however you like to phrase it and with the added bonus of have no legal backing. No case of a registered, legal pistol owner going out and robbing or killing. How can this be allowed?

BrowningHP

ezridax wrote: »

Very sorry to hear that Browning. Are you appealing? No need for specifics.

Yeah i feel i have no option but to.

BrowningHP

Bananaman wrote: »

Please pass the relevant information on to the NASRPC.

You can get details at www.nasrpc.ie

They are collating the information with respect to refusals to C/F Pistol Licenses.

B'Man

First thing I did

rrpc

medicman wrote: »

people republic of CORK, bandon, fermoy cs both blanket ban on 9's, i'll appeal, but is there a point?, the same letter is sent to everyone with a 9mm pistol, i'll appeal but i dont think it will make any difference.

Of course there's a point and I'll give you three:

1. Gardai might be aping their political masters and making the buck stop somewhere else: the District Court.
2. There's quite a bit of commentary on what's 'good reason' in relation to target shooting, so there's a good case for anyone refused on that ground.
3, There may be a touch of weeding on the basis of "Kill them all, the Lord will know his own" about this, so if you don't go to court, you end up being a weed.

Usual boiler plate applies: I'm just giving you my opinion which is in no way to be construed as professional advice...

There's also some pretty good 'opinion' on this thread.

rrpc

ezridax wrote: »

Can someone with a legal mind please tell how the Gardai can get away with implying that as a pistol holder we would be a danger to public safety. Don't give me anything along the lines of "well, he didn't actually say that straight out.........." In every letter, refusal, phone call, the predominant feature throughout is this "safety to the public b******t. (thank you Charlton) In any language this is slander, tarnishing a reputation, profiling, however you like to phrase it and with the added bonus of have no legal backing. No case of a registered, legal pistol owner going out and robbing or killing. How can this be allowed?

It's taken directly from the firearms act and has been in it since the start. The Superintendent (CS if restricted) has to be satisfied that you can be permitted to possess, use and carry the firearm and ammunition without danger to the public safety or security or the peace,

It's a very broad 'catch all' clause, which has been successfully challenged in judicial review cases, on the grounds that if the Super has given you a licence for a firearm in the past, he can't refuse on those grounds because he's already satisfied himself that you won't be a danger etc.

Then Charleton came along and said the firearm has to have some bearing and we now have a Mexican standoff in the High Court heading for the Supreme Court to be sorted out.

Don't take it personally, the reason it's used is because the guy just doesn't like the yoke you've got and as there's no other reason available in the act to say "I don't like that yoke", that one always gets used. :rolleyes:

BrowningHP

Thats it in a nutshell. I think the McCarron case is in appeal so this is a uniform response until this gets sorted.

rowa

surely if you have held a centrefire pistol licence for a number of years like i have , and the chief super then turns around and says you can't hold it any longer because it might be a danger to the public ,you can show to a court that this is a nonsense as you have not had any incidents in the past x years and have been using the pistol as intended and for the purpose it was granted for in the first place ?

also is his refusal a judgement on the superintendents decision to grant the licence in the first place ?

Cass

rrpc wrote: »

Don't take it personally, the reason it's used is because the guy just doesn't like the yoke you've got and as there's no other reason available in the act to say "I don't like that yoke", that one always gets used. :rolleyes:

Half figured as much but its still insulting. As you said yourself they licensed me before so if i was a danger how could i be licensed at all. I'm sure if i went around making vague and subtle innuendos and slanderous remarks towards any minority (and we, CF pistol holders, are a minority) i would be silenced, arrested, sanctioned or punished in some way especially if my remarks had no foundations.

rrpc

ezridax wrote: »

Half figured as much but its still insulting. As you said yourself they licensed me before so if i was a danger how could i be licensed at all. I'm sure if i went around making vague and subtle innuendos and slanderous remarks towards any minority (and we, CF pistol holders, are a minority) i would be silenced, arrested, sanctioned or punished in some way especially if my remarks had no foundations.

It's not slander though. He's not specifically saying that you personally could be the danger, merely that he's not satisfied that there won't be a danger if he issues the licence. Subtle distinction there, plus he's legally obliged to satisfy himself that there would be no danger.

As I said above, it's a catch all and usually means he doesn't like 'your yoke'

And you wouldn't be silenced unless you had an authorisation

rrpc

There are much more reasons now with the commencement of the 2006 Act bits that were sitting around for three years. For restricted firearms there are even more:

The conditions subject to which a firearm certificate may be granted are that, in the opinion of the issuing person, the applicant—
(a) has a good reason for requiring the firearm in respect of which the certificate is applied for,
(b) can be permitted to possess, use and carry the firearm and ammunition without danger to the public safety or security or the peace,
(c) is not a person declared by this Act to be disentitled to hold a firearm certificate,
(d) has provided secure accommodation for the firearm and ammunition at the place where it is to be kept,
(e) where the firearm is a rifle or pistol to be used for target shooting, is a member of an authorised rifle or pistol club,
(f) has complied with subsection (3), (You've provided all information required in the application)
(g) complies with such other conditions (if any) specified in the firearm certificate, including any such conditions to be complied with before a specified date as the issuing person considers necessary in the interests of public safety or security, and
(h) in case the application is for a restricted firearm certificate—
(i) has a good and sufficient reason for requiring such a firearm, and
(ii) has demonstrated that the firearm is the only type of weapon that is appropriate for the purpose for which it is required.

That's a lot of hoops to jump through :eek:

rowa

could this also be a way of delegating the granting of licences for centrefire pistols to the courts . e.g. i didn't want to issue the pistol cert but the courts instructed me to. ?

rrpc

rowa wrote: »

could this also be a way of delegating the granting of licences for centrefire pistols to the courts . e.g. i didn't want to issue the pistol cert but the courts instructed me to. ?

Quite possibly. There's no way of knowing at this stage because you have to remember that the Chief Superintendents have still quite a bit of time before the three months runs out and they have to make a decision or let the courts take over.

They may just be watching each other to see how their colleagues handle it, or waiting to see what comes out of the first District Court cases.

Cass

rrpc wrote: »

They may just be watching each other to see how their colleagues handle it, or waiting to see what comes out of the first District Court cases.

I can just see it now at the next meeting.

CF1 - So how many did you grant?
CF2 - Oh, only the 2 .........out of 50.
CF1 - S**t, 2, i granted 4. May just refuse the rest to make up for it.
CF3 - I'm okay lads, i refused everyone, just to be sure.
CF4 - Yeah me too. Let the courts undo this cluster****.

rowa

also like a lot of people , my extensions are out of date as of the last day of october , if my licence is refused can i legally still possess my pistol at home until the 30 day appeal limit is over or do i have to surrender it immediately ?

Cass

I think the general consensus is once you are waiting on a license or appealing a decision you may still store the firearm at home. If all avenues fail then its a "What to do" situation. Corrections to follow.

BrowningHP

As far as i know you retain the firearm until you lodge an appeal or give notice of an appeal pending then at this stage you must surrender it to a RFD until the matter is sorted. Of course you must lodge an appeal within 30 day of reciet of refusal.

rrpc

I'm afraid not. As soon as you're refused, that's it, you must not be in possession of the firearm until you get a court to allow your appeal.

BrowningHP

I see, I better say my goodbyes and hand it to a RFD so.

rowa

BrowningHP wrote: »

I see, I better say my goodbyes and hand it to a RFD so.

suppose if the worst comes to the worst you can have it deactivated and apply for permission from the super to have it , you'll get nothing for it now .

rrpc

rowa wrote: »

suppose if the worst comes to the worst you can have it deactivated and apply for permission from the super to have it , you'll get nothing for it now .

I don't agree, you can sell these things on eGun.de or through dealers in Germany; Frankonia take in secondhand stuff.

dave999

ezridax wrote: »

Sorry to hear.


In every letter, refusal, phone call, the predominant feature throughout is this "safety to the public b******t. (thank you Charlton) In any language this is slander, tarnishing a reputation, profiling, however you like to phrase it and with the added bonus of have no legal backing.

E,
I hope you mean the other Charleton!

RRPC got it right!!

rrpc wrote: »

Then Charleton came along and said the firearm has to have some bearing and we now have a Mexican standoff in the High Court heading for the Supreme Court to be sorted out.

I have enough trouble being called 'Jack' all the time.

Good luck with your appeal.
David :D:D

Cass

dave999 wrote: »

E,
I hope you mean the other Charleton!

Charlton, Charleton you know the doughnut i'm talking about . Unless Jack has taken to making court decisions????





What i wouldn't give for spellcheck.

rrpc

ezridax wrote: »

Charlton, Charleton you know the doughnut i'm talking about . Unless Jack has taken to making court decisions????





What i wouldn't give for spellcheck.

Google Chrome does spellcheck, but only in 'US English'

Wouldn't pick up which Charl(e)ton to use though

Grizzly 45

rrpc wrote: »

I don't agree, you can sell these things on eGun.de or through dealers in Germany; Frankonia take in secondhand stuff.

Just dont expect Irish prices for it though.

rrpc

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Just dont expect Irish prices for it though.

I think these days, Irish prices are gone by the board; in everything. One positive note about this recession :rolleyes:

Grizzly 45

You would be surprised RR,how many people out there still think they can sell or charge Celtic tiger prices.:(

BTW have to add on selling guns on EGun or Frankonia.Expect more of a price drop,if your gun hasnt got recognised proof marks!!IOW for it to be legally resellable in Germany or within the EU from a German dealer/manufacturer it has to have been offically proof marked.This costs appx 150 Euros per gun for an individual or company to do.So you are going to be down more money if your gun was bought in the US or outside the EU zone.

rowa

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

You would be surprised RR,how many people out there still think they can sell or charge Celtic tiger prices.:(

BTW have to add on selling guns on EGun or Frankonia.Expect more of a price drop,if your gun hasnt got recognised proof marks!!IOW for it to be legally resellable in Germany or within the EU from a German dealer/manufacturer it has to have been offically proof marked.This costs appx 150 Euros per gun for an individual or company to do.So you are going to be down more money if your gun was bought in the US or outside the EU zone.

which adds to my original suggestion of just having the gun deactivated , again you get it out to germany and everyone gets there cut/commission it would hardly be worth your while , how much is a browning high new ? and whats one worth now in a recession hit europe ? very little i'd say

rrpc

rowa wrote: »

which adds to my original suggestion of just having the gun deactivated , again you get it out to germany and everyone gets there cut/commission it would hardly be worth your while , how much is a browning high new ? and whats one worth now in a recession hit europe ? very little i'd say

Not as little as you'd think

Here

Cass

rrpc wrote: »

Wouldn't pick up which Charl(e)ton to use though

Was going to say it should know who is the old fart on the bench, but sure Jack is pushing on.:D

Originally Posted by rrpc
I don't agree, you can sell these things on eGun.de or through dealers in Germany; Frankonia take in secondhand stuff.

Was checking out my gun on a few sites and they are going between €900 and €1400 depending on where you look, condition and usage. Its only a curiosity thing, i don't intend for it to get to that point.

BornToKill

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Expect more of a price drop,if your gun hasnt got recognised proof marks!!IOW for it to be legally resellable in Germany or within the EU from a German dealer/manufacturer it has to have been offically proof marked.This costs appx 150 Euros per gun for an individual or company to do.So you are going to be down more money if your gun was bought in the US or outside the EU zone.

There are CIP member countries outside the EU whose proof marks would be fully recognised e.g. Chile. The USA isn't a member.

Mr Flibble

BornToKill wrote: »

There are CIP member countries outside the EU whose proof marks would be fully recognised e.g. Chile.

What about Colombia?

BornToKill

Mr Flibble wrote: »

What about Colombia?

I don't think so. Did you try the google?

BrowningHP

Some dealers in Northern Ireland will buy your gun but at what price though.I have thought about but then again deactivation is also in the running.All as a very very last resort.
Not looking forward to the stress a court case is going to bring with it.Solicitor choice is important here as not all are familiar with the firearms act.

rrpc

BrowningHP wrote: »

Some dealers in Northern Ireland will buy your gun but at what price though.I have thought about but then again deactivation is also in the running.All as a very very last resort.
Not looking forward to the stress a court case is going to bring with it.Solicitor choice is important here as not all are familiar with the firearms act.

Nobody's going to be familiar with the firearms act with regard to restricted firearms and the changes to the firearms act since 1st August this year.

That includes solicitors, Judges and even Chief Superintendents

We're all at the starting gate (well all except me )

happyjack

BrowningHP wrote: »

What in the name of god is going on.Got a refusal for my pistol, which i have licensed for nearly five years,in the door yesterday.And no it's not a kind of request for further info, it states refusal.I have read the other threads and I had submitted a similar explanation letter with my application.
I haven't even been offered the option of a .22 pistol.Feeling pretty mad at the moment.I never spoke bad of the gardai, but if you could hear my sentiments now.It's wrong what they are doing.They are the criminals now forcing ordinary hardworking people to go to court to fight for their property.No way am i going to give up without a fight and i am not going to keep it quiet either.I would like to go so far as to suggest that a tempoary sub forum be created to deal specifically with this issue.
With about 1800 pistol licenses in the country under threat we need to act now and support eachother otherwise where will it stop.They won't be happy untill we are left with a sling-shot.

Hi Browning HP,

What do you need a pistol for? Whats the end usage?

The reason I ask is thats the main question that will come up in a district court appeal, legal aids going to be 500 to 2000 euro depending on how long it will last, etc,
the main question the Gardai will be bouncing off you is
what target usage have you put it to over the last 5 years.

I'd say I know you Browning, if your the bloke I'm thinking of your a sound guy, but that wont make any difference. I'm not for gun control myself, but thats not how the Gardai look at it, they love taking guns off us.

Think twice before going to court, it's expensive plus the more pistol shooters that lose cases the worse it is for the rest of us, creates case law in that area.

Another option is to put the gun in storage and see what happens over the next few months.

HJ, other side of the Shannon:)

It wasn't me!

Just to note that the district court is not a court of record and can't establish case law.

rrpc

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Just to note that the district court is not a court of record and can't establish case law.

Which doesn't mean that a district Judge can't take note of another Judge's decision in a similar case.