Should the Equality Authiority now go after Curves Gyms?

Liam79

What do Irish Ladies think? Given that they went after Portmarnock Golf Club, should The Equality Authority now go after Curves Gym given their obviously Sexist policies? And what about Shiela's Wheels insurance? Or is it only Men who can be sexist, in the same way only white people can be racist?

I am not trolling, I would genuinely like to hear female opinions on this, Thanks ladies.

Liam

Madame Razz

I believe that you are perfectly entitled to have a sexist policy as long as a drinks licence isn't involved.

shellyboo

Not totally familiar with the case, but I've heard about it. Link?

I can answer your question though - it's not just men who can be sexist. Obviously.

pikachucheeks

I don't think so.

Many women feel insecure about their bodies and appearance when going to the gym, especially in a mixed environment.
The fact that they'll have to get sweaty and exercise with men around can be very daunting for some women and can actually put them off joining in the first place, or from going to the gym they've joined.

Curves offers such women a chance to get fit and exercise in a less ... pressurised environment, as it's women only.

If men wanted a men's only gym, I'm sure women wouldn't have a problem with that either.

Khannie

Madame Razz wrote: »

I believe that you are perfectly entitled to have a sexist policy as long as a drinks licence isn't involved.

What difference does the drinks licence make?

Personally, I think there's no problem in men free zones, or women free zones. We don't share locker rooms.

Chinafoot

I'm not quite sure how effective many men would find Curves tbh. Its designed for women to suit their specific needs. Golf isn't solely a man's game so I don't think you can really compare the two quite as simplistically.

Having said that, I personally have no problem with Portmarnock Golf Club remaining mens only. It's not publicly funded and there are other options for women in the locality. Don't get me wrong, I think its absolutely pathetic and archaic but there's nothing really wrong with it.

Edit: Previous discussion on this topic here.

Madame Razz

Khannie wrote: »

What difference does the drinks licence make?

.

.

Something to do with it being a public licence I think. It's to do with the intricate nature of liquor licences in this country; some sort of violation or summat.

Anyway, they got around it as women are allowed on the course for a few hours once a week, ergo the Supreme court deemed them to be not sexist. Which of course has nothing to do with fact that half the supreme court play there:rolleyes:

ash23

Not sure about curves. They probably should cater for men and women.
As for the insurance, well thats not sexist. They offer a product and due to risk factors,men fall outside their criteria.
It's been proven that women are safer drivers and claim less.
Once there is evidence to back these exclusions up, then it isn't sexist. Same as excluding drivers over 80 isn't, or drivers under 25 etc.

It's all backed by fact and therefore is legit.

stovelid

Personally, I view a 'struggle' for men to join a female-only gym to be as stupid an act of tokenism as women fighting to join a private, men-only golf club.

minidazzler

Curve's should be allowed be women only.

Conversely, Any Gym that wants to be Men only should be allowed.

Same with Golf Clubs etc.

Clubs should be allowed to pick and choose their members, they should be allowed be "discerning".

So Women's only Clubs, fine with me, Men's only clubs Fine with me.

We do need some separation on occasion.

Nervous Wreck

Wasn't there a thread on this a couple months ago? Can't remember how that one ended.....

It's a potentially contentious subject anyway, cos sooner or later someone's gonna ask "Well what if Curves had a 'No Blacks' policy?" and then everything will hit the fan.


Not that I'm asking that question. :pac:

Nevyn

Part of the problem with certain clubs being men/women only is that when they are used for networking for businees grounds.

ash23

Thaedydal wrote: »

Part of the problem with certain clubs being men/women only is that when they are used for networking for businees grounds.

Yeah, golf is a big networking thing in our offices. If you want to get anywhere in terms of (our) business, you have to play golf. If women were excluded it would be difficult for them to make the connections the men make.

The_Conductor

ash23 wrote: »

As for the insurance, well thats not sexist. They offer a product and due to risk factors,men fall outside their criteria.It's been proven that women are safer drivers and claim less.Once there is evidence to back these exclusions up, then it isn't sexist. Same as excluding drivers over 80 isn't, or drivers under 25 etc.

It's all backed by fact and therefore is legit.

Ash- women are in fact involved in almost 3 times more accidents than men- however the accidents tend to be of a more minor nature than mens, and less likely to involve hospitalisation or a medical intervention. This is why the general excess level on a womans insurance policy is EUR1000, whereas its only 250 on a mans policy. (Hibernian Avivas figures for 2007 show the culpable party in almost 90% of carpark prangs were women for example). Men however- pay on average 40% more than similarly experienced women- as they are seen to be more likely to cause serious accidents.

Its perfectly allowable for insurance companies to discriminate against men on purely economic grounds regarding motor insurance, but not pensions.......

Women in Ireland have the largest longevity differential with their male counterparts in the developed world. Companies are not allowed to discriminate against women when offering pension products- despite the fact that it is up to 60% more expensive to supply an identical level of cover to two random men and women in the street. The average man thus subsidises the pension scheme of his female colleague........

Surely if you allow companies to discriminate against one gender on economic grounds in the motor industry- you should allow a similar discrimination on economic grounds in the pensions industry. Women gain on car insurance- but would loose out on superannuation contributions. Or if we want equality across the board- women should accept that the cost of having similar pension contribution levels to men (aka men subsidising women's pension contributions) is that men would have similar car insurance levels to women (aka women would subsidise the insurance policies of men).

You can't selectively discriminate against one gender- if you intend on doing so- its a slippery slope- we'll eventually end up with one gender being wholly disenfranchised.

S.

Ginny

My excess on my car insurance is €100, always has been, I've never anecdotal or otherwise heard of that extreme difference in excess on car insurance in men and women.

Piste

It'd be silly for the Equality authority to go after Curves. Sure they lost in the Portmarnock case, would they not also lose in the Curves case? Can't any private establishment pick and choose its members/guests as they wish? Nightclubs can have agist and sexist practices (over 21s only, ladies free in before midnight etc.), a gym club doesn't seem too different.

lemon_sherbert

It's not illegal to be a discriminating club, as long as it's a private body, the issue arises when a discriminating club seeks a liquor licence that those bodies are not allowed. There is however an exception allowed in the statute for clubs that

“its principal purpose is to cater only for the needs of -
(i) Persons of a particular gender, marital status, family status, sexual orientation, religious belief, age, disability, nationality or ethnic or national origin,

(ii) Persons who are members of the traveller community, or

(iii) Persons who have no religious belief,

it refuses membership to other persons.”

So the main issue that arose was whether the club was catering to male needs. To be honest, I'm not inclined to agree. Golf is not an intrinsic male need, nor is the enjoyment of golf particular to the male gender. Those who wish to associate solely with men are entitled to, they would not have to play with women.

It's therefore arguable that Curves, their exercise equipment being specifically designed for women's physical requirements are serving a particular female need. (However, they aren't looking for a licence to serve alcohol, so it doesn't matter)

At the same time, I think the Equality Authority could be fighting more important battles than this. It's not as if the women seeking membership brought the case.

If anyone's interested, the judgments are available at http://www.courts.ie/Judgments.nsf/Webpages/HomePage

ash23

smccarrick wrote: »

Ash- women are in fact involved in almost 3 times more accidents than men- however the accidents tend to be of a more minor nature than mens, and less likely to involve hospitalisation or a medical intervention. This is why the general excess level on a womans insurance policy is EUR1000, whereas its only 250 on a mans policy. (Hibernian Avivas figures for 2007 show the culpable party in almost 90% of carpark prangs were women for example). Men however- pay on average 40% more than similarly experienced women- as they are seen to be more likely to cause serious accidents.

Its perfectly allowable for insurance companies to discriminate against men on purely economic grounds regarding motor insurance, but not pensions.......

Women in Ireland have the largest longevity differential with their male counterparts in the developed world. Companies are not allowed to discriminate against women when offering pension products- despite the fact that it is up to 60% more expensive to supply an identical level of cover to two random men and women in the street. The average man thus subsidises the pension scheme of his female colleague........

Surely if you allow companies to discriminate against one gender on economic grounds in the motor industry- you should allow a similar discrimination on economic grounds in the pensions industry. Women gain on car insurance- but would loose out on superannuation contributions. Or if we want equality across the board- women should accept that the cost of having similar pension contribution levels to men (aka men subsidising women's pension contributions) is that men would have similar car insurance levels to women (aka women would subsidise the insurance policies of men).

You can't selectively discriminate against one gender- if you intend on doing so- its a slippery slope- we'll eventually end up with one gender being wholly disenfranchised.

S.

Even on high excess policies the womens excess is lower than the mens so I'm not sure where you are getting those figures? Are they Irish figures or worldwide? I did say women were statistically "safer" drivers. They cost the insurance companies less, in terms of personal injuries and accidents, therefore their insurance claims are less and their premiums are lower and they are more insurable.

For eg, an XS direct policy has an excess of €4000 for males and between 1 and 2ooo for females.

As for pensions, well, thats not my area of expertise. But health insurance is based on age, weight, family history, personal choices (like smoking, drinking, taking drugs) etc. Again, not discriminatory as there is factual evidence to back these things up.

Madame Razz

minidazzler wrote: »

Curve's should be allowed be women only.

Conversely, Any Gym that wants to be Men only should be allowed.

Same with Golf Clubs etc.

Clubs should be allowed to pick and choose their members, they should be allowed be "discerning".

So Women's only Clubs, fine with me, Men's only clubs Fine with me.

We do need some separation on occasion.

Nobody is disagreeing with that; as long as there isn't a liquor licence involved.

ash23 wrote: »

Yeah, golf is a big networking thing in our offices. If you want to get anywhere in terms of (our) business, you have to play golf. If women were excluded it would be difficult for them to make the connections the men make.

Women can't make the connections on the golf course that men can if you ask me. The men play with men usually and the women play with women; mixed games are pretty unusual. 'Business' wise playing golf as a networking means as a female generally is nowhere near as productive as it is for a male playing golf. And on almost every course in the country preferential treatment is given to men for at least one day a week (Men only on Sundays at Galway golf club for example), but rarely given to women.

The_Conductor

ash23 wrote: »

As for pensions, well, thats not my area of expertise. But health insurance is based on age, weight, family history, personal choices (like smoking, drinking, taking drugs) etc. Again, not discriminatory as there is factual evidence to back these things up.

Pensions most certainly are discriminatory- as is health insurance. The whole idea of community rating and its adjutant risk equalisation- was to stop private insurance companies from cherry picking the more lucrative, less likely to claim, customers (particularly from the incumbent, VHI). Statistically, there is a direct correlation between age and claims, and gender and claims. Women in general have far more diagnostic procedures than men, which in turn, picks up more health problems than do men- and in an Irish context- is why the life expectancy differential between the genders in Ireland is the highest in the OECD. If you check- there is not a commensurate difference between the insurance policies for men and women. Admittedly- there is a large element of men not willing to go to doctors and take care of their health in this- where there is not a stigma attached to women doing just that.

With respect of pensions- there is an acknowledged inequity. When I'm doing up an FRS17 declaration for annual accounts (its an actuarial measure of the cost of meeting a company's accrued pension costs)- I have to put a price on the potential cost of supplying a pension to different grades of staff- and to different genders. We pray for large number of middle management males- they are statistically the least expensive- whereas their female colleagues on average enjoy between 8 and 10 years more than they do. Junior female staff have the greatest longevity of all- while there aren't sufficient staff at senior ranks to draw a definitive conclusion. All staff pay a set % of their gross salary towards their final pension entitlements (which is then matched by the company).

There are actuarial tables out there- showing you in no uncertain terms- the different costs of supplying a pension to an otherwise identical male and female- however we're not allowed to factor this into the costs associated with running the schemes- so in effect the males significantly subsidise the pensions of their female counterparts.

If this happened with motor insurance- there would be war.

The_Conductor

Madame Razz wrote: »

on almost every course in the country preferential treatment is given to men for at least one day a week (Men only on Sundays at Galway golf club for example), but rarely given to women.

They certainly get preference in swimming pools and sports clubs. I'm fed up getting kicked out of the swimming pool, because its for a women's only session. When you factor the hoardes of public non-members who make a peaceful swim hell on earth most of the time- if you are a member- surely you should be able to enjoy the facilities? If the sports club are happy to accept you as a full member- surely they shouldn't be allowed to differentiate between you and another member- purely on gender grounds. I suppose this is the inverse of the Portmarnock Golf Club- the way Crunch Fitness kick men out of a significant number of sessions.

minidazzler

Madame Razz wrote: »

Nobody is disagreeing with that; as long as there isn't a liquor licence involved.

See this is what bugs me. Why is the Liquor licence bit so Important?

To me it sounds like a cop out so there can be discrimination in favour of women.

Madame Razz

smccarrick wrote: »

They certainly get preference in swimming pools and sports clubs. I'm fed up getting kicked out of the swimming pool, because its for a women's only session. When you factor the hoardes of public non-members who make a peaceful swim hell on earth most of the time- if you are a member- surely you should be able to enjoy the facilities? If the sports club are happy to accept you as a full member- surely they shouldn't be allowed to differentiate between you and another member- purely on gender grounds. I suppose this is the inverse of the Portmarnock Golf Club- the way Crunch Fitness kick men out of a significant number of sessions.

I wasn't referring to Swimming pools and sports clubs; I was referring to Golf clubs; which is a totally different scenario by virtue of the fact that it IS a networking sport.

Incidently tho, in any of the pools/sports clubs that I am/have been a member of there no longer are such things as womens hours, etc; most of these things have disappeared in the last 10-15 years as nearly all women work now.

What HASN'T disappeared is the silent discrimination that women experienced in sports clubs that pertain to male orientated sports. I am a member of such a club and sometimes the sh!t one has to deal as a woman in such a scenario is bloody hard to take.

Madame Razz

minidazzler wrote: »

See this is what bugs me. Why is the Liquor licence bit so Important?

May I refer you to Lemon_sherbet's above post.

It isn't a cop out; it's law.

minidazzler

Madame Razz wrote: »

May I refer you to Lemon_sherbet's above post.

It isn't a cop out; it's law.

I still feel the Law is a cop out.

My simple view on this is, Any private Club anywhere even serving alcohol, Should be allowed pick it's members.

I don't care if that means a conglomerate of women buy there own night club and only let women in and serve drink.

Or Men Run their own Golf Club serving drink.

I personally think it is fair enough.

A Club is owned by it's members usually, they should be allowed decide who they want to sell part of it to. No matter what.

I am all for equality. But Clubs are private things, so it's should be about the will of the club as a whole.

Madame Razz

minidazzler wrote: »

I still feel the Law is a cop out.

My simple view on this is, Any private Club anywhere even serving alcohol, Should be allowed pick it's members.

I don't care if that means a conglomerate of women buy there own night club and only let women in and serve drink.

Or Men Run their own Golf Club serving drink.

I personally think it is fair enough.

A Club is owned by it's members usually, they should be allowed decide who they want to sell part of it to. No matter what.

I am all for equality. But Clubs are private things, so it's should be about the will of the club as a whole.

A club may be private but a general liquor licence is not. The only licence that comes remotely close to a private licence only allows for 50 members, which is feck all use to your average club, and the conditions surrounding it are very strict.

ANY club can be men only or women only, as long as a drinks licence isn't involved. That isn't a cop out, the very reason the drinks licence exists in the way that it does is to actually prevent against discrimination.

That was the very reason that they allowed women to play the Portmarnock course for a few token hours a week; so that they could retain their drinks licence. If they didn't do that they would lose their licence, if that happened and they continued to serve drink, well then the premises would be classed as a shebeen, which is totally illegal; although fun.

sunnyjim

Piste wrote: »

It'd be silly for the Equality authority to go after Curves. Sure they lost in the Portmarnock case, would they not also lose in the Curves case? Can't any private establishment pick and choose its members/guests as they wish? Nightclubs can have agist and sexist practices (over 21s only, ladies free in before midnight etc.), a gym club doesn't seem too different.

The difference between the Portmarnock case and curves is that the Portmarnock club was deemed to be a gentlemens club, which happened to have a golf club - which was decided on the case that the bar and socialising seemed to occupy the majority of what happened there.

Curves however, offers only use of facilities, with little other interaction that would stipulate a need for women only.

jesus_thats_gre

pikachucheeks wrote: »

I don't think so.

Many women feel insecure about their bodies and appearance when going to the gym, especially in a mixed environment.
The fact that they'll have to get sweaty and exercise with men around can be very daunting for some women and can actually put them off joining in the first place, or from going to the gym they've joined.

Curves offers such women a chance to get fit and exercise in a less ... pressurised environment, as it's women only.

If men wanted a men's only gym, I'm sure women wouldn't have a problem with that either.

Surely you have to realise that that logic can be applied to absolutely everything?

Sure I could argue that I would like a club to remain men only as women make me feel uncomfortable when I am being sexist pig with all my male mates. The last thing I want is a woman hanging around nagging me.

amacachi

Women are allowed play on the course, so the argument that deals are made on the golf course and therefore women should be allowed become members holds no water with me.

herya

Is Curves actually "women only" in the sense that they won't register a man? Or is it just "designed for women" and "women friendly" so that men are not interested in joining - but in theory they could?

Any male or female sport team is discriminatory BTW. I don't mind the ould Portmarnock as long as women are allowed to open their own club if they want. It would be discriminatory if it was the only golf club in the country and women were barred from joining it or opening their own.

minidazzler

herya wrote: »

Is Curves actually "women only" in the sense that they won't register a man? Or is it just "designed for women" and "women friendly" so that men are not interested in joining - but in theory they could?

Any male or female sport team is discriminatory BTW. I don't mind the ould Portmarnock as long as women are allowed to open their own club if they want. It would be discriminatory if it was the only golf club in the country and women were barred from joining it or opening their own.

Womens only.

astrofool

The issue with Portmarnock is not that it is men only (it isn't), it's that the men enjoy privileges simply for being a man. If Portmarnock was to become men only, there would be no issue, it would fall into the same category as something like Curves gym (or the priesthood).

Imagine you had a club, anyone could join, but if you were a redhead, your drinks were cheaper, and you got to skip to the top of all queues. Thats where the problem is.

mummy2b

Liam79 wrote: »

What do Irish Ladies think? Given that they went after Portmarnock Golf Club, should The Equality Authority now go after Curves Gym given their obviously Sexist policies? And what about Shiela's Wheels insurance? Or is it only Men who can be sexist, in the same way only white people can be racist?

I am not trolling, I would genuinely like to hear female opinions on this, Thanks ladies.

Liam

Yes agree they probably should. However having been to a few of them (curves) I'm not sure that men would really appreciate them

994

astrofool wrote: »

The issue with Portmarnock is not that it is men only (it isn't), it's that the men enjoy privileges simply for being a man. If Portmarnock was to become men only, there would be no issue, it would fall into the same category as something like Curves gym (or the priesthood).

Imagine you had a club, anyone could join, but if you were a redhead, your drinks were cheaper, and you got to skip to the top of all queues. Thats where the problem is.

Women in nightclubs

wb

I'm going to try join the Irish Countrywomen's association.

I'm not a woman and I'm not from the country but what the heck!

Seriously though, things like the ICA don't bother me, nor does a male golf club. Likeminded people should be able to gather as they please. Can't see the fuss.

Catari Jaguar

Piste wrote: »

Can't any private establishment pick and choose its members/guests as they wish? Nightclubs can have agist and sexist practices (over 21s only, ladies free in before midnight etc.),.

No they can't. If a nightclub lets a woman in free and charges a man they can be taken to court. It was on some show about consumer rights.

Catari Jaguar

Liam79 wrote: »

What do Irish Ladies think? Given that they went after Portmarnock Golf Club, should The Equality Authority now go after Curves Gym given their obviously Sexist policies?

No, that's like saying *I'm a man and you won't let me into the women's changing rooms/ womans toilet. It's discrimination*.

I think the Curves being for females fits more into privacy and body self conciousness. eg. Being in a bikini in front of a man or in a sauna/jacuzzi with men.

I am in a unisex gym but I can appreciate how this gym benefits those that are embarrassed to be seen in compromising positions like yoga class. I was in belly dancing classes and the guys on exercise bikes kept staring in and others were hitting on us in the lift when they heard the jangle of the scarves. That's borderline sexual harassment. Not that I gave a ****.

Joey the lips

Thaedydal wrote: »

Part of the problem with certain clubs being men/women only is that when they are used for networking for businees grounds.

Very good.. Never thought of that slant! But to follow on from the op. The same can happen in curves! although granted its more likely in a golf course! cannot see many people discussing the crop report whilst running at 20 miles an hour!

Personally I dont care about any of it. Curves or portmarnock. I think if there is alternatives in the area fairly priced it should not be a big deal.

However would I feel the same if portmarnock hosted the irish open and my daughter was a golfer!

Piste

Lil Kitten wrote: »

No they can't. If a nightclub lets a woman in free and charges a man they can be taken to court. It was on some show about consumer rights.

Ah I didn't know that, interesting. Have any clubs been taken to court over it, do you know?

BumbleB

Men dont really care about that stuff really.

I went out with finnish girl for a while and I was amazed at the equality there. It seems that it's just their culture.

Its a bit like midsummers when 10 people get killed during crazy antics.People don't bat an eyelid because it normal for that to happen and more than likely they were having fun.

if a woman likes a guy she just goes up and chats to him.

SerialComplaint

Piste wrote: »

It'd be silly for the Equality authority to go after Curves. Sure they lost in the Portmarnock case, would they not also lose in the Curves case? Can't any private establishment pick and choose its members/guests as they wish? Nightclubs can have agist and sexist practices (over 21s only, ladies free in before midnight etc.), a gym club doesn't seem too different.

'Over 21' rules are illegal now - Nightclubs cannot discriminate based on age