"The White Beauty Myth"

shellyboo

Did anyone else watch this programme on Channel 4 just now? Anyone else as horrified as me?!

It was a documentary on certain members of ethnic minorities in the UK who wanted to look more "white" and were having surgery to do so. While I respect their right to do whatever they want to their bodies, I couldn't help but feel that a lot of their reasoning was extremely flawed.

One woman wanted a smaller, "more Caucasian" nose because it would make her look "less poor" and more beautiful. Her main concern going under the knife was not the risk of dying, but the risk of the surgeon making her ugly. She actually said she'd rather die than be ugly.

Another woman used extensive skin-lightening treatments and said she woke up every day wishing she was white; and that she didn't think there'd ever be a day where she didn't wish that. She wanted to just wake up one day, and be white. She articulated this to her 12-year-old daughter, also telling her that no matter what, people would comment on her skin colour, and that she (the mother) had a problem (her skin colour) and she just wants to "fix it".

I was shocked to say the least. Do these reasons and motives not speak of some deep psychological issues? I would question the ethics of any doctor who'd agree to perform surgery on someone whose self-esteem is so utterly absent.

Thoughts, ideas?

Dudess

And then you've got pale folks desperate to be dark-skinned... Or orange.

shellyboo

Not to the same extent. I know tanning is bad for you, but it's hardly as extreme as surgery.

Michellenman

I'm just watching it now and my heart is actually breaking for that womans daughter. Poor thing. When she continued to ask the doctor for what Micheal Jackson used it made me really uncomfortable and I felt truly sorry for her.

The glamour model girl was such a tit. When she went on the radio show I'm glad they gave her stick about it. She had no humility whatsoever either which is my opinion made her incredibly unattractive.

I recorded it so I'm just watching it now and I'm already shocked by it.

Is it going to be a series of sorts? This episode was called 'faces' so perhaps there are episodes.

I totally agree with you on the doctor thing, I'm surprised they carry out the procedures when it seems like more of a psychological problem. Although the fact the doctor himself had had surgery to make himself appear more 'westernised' says a lot about his ethics and mindset.

Khannie

You need only travel to asia to see the desire there for white skin. Skin whitening products are as common there as fake tan is here.

Xiney

I watched it too.

I remember watching a program along the same lines several years back (when I was still in secondary school) hosted by David Suzuki, who is, for all intents and purposes, Canada's answer to David Attenborough.

Anyway, David Suzuki is Japanese, and the only part of that program I remember is the fact that he was unhappy about the shape of his eyes, and that when his first daughter was born he was scared that her eyes would be just as asian looking as his (his wife is white)

I couldn't believe that such an intelligent, accomplished person would feel this way about their race, and it made me realise how insidious racism must be for it to affect him.

I mean, you can argue that the woman who thought her nose made her look "poor" would have thought that about any feature she considered ugly, they made a point of showing her Chanel compact and her Louboutins to paint a picture of her.

And the woman who was buying every skin lightening cream on the planet I think had the most deep seeded psychological issues.

But I think it must be very real - and I don't think as a white person I will ever be able to comprehend it, same as how men can not comprehend the discrimination women face.

pikachucheeks

I'm friends with a Japanese girl.
.She told me that in Japan, there's been a huge increase in women having plastic surgery, with the aim of becoming "more Caucasian"
She said having surgery on their eyes to make them more western-looking is extremely popular, along with nose jobs and boob jobs.

I think it's very sad that these women feel somehow ashamed of their race or want to be more like another race.

Nevyn

What do you expect when all media protray pretty women and women to aspire to look like to be white, hell it even starts with barbie and baby dolls.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17fEy0q6yqc

http://blacksnob.squarespace.com/snob_blog/2009/2/3/on-little-black-girls-beauty-and-barbie-dolls.html

On Little Black Girls, Beauty and Barbie Dolls
DateTuesday, February 3, 2009 at 4:35PM

Ryan Booth, "Harlem's Flyest Toddler," submitted by someone who loves her dearly.In my effort to show the world how beautiful black and brown children are (and that Sasha and Malia aren't the unicorns of black children that Madison Avenue is making them out to be), I've received more than 40 emails from happy friends, relatives and parents all wanting to be part of The Black Snob's efforts to show the true beauty of our daughters.

Because that's what this is really about for me.

For some background on why this issue really stuck in my craw and the statement that sent me over the edge, click here. But I want to give you some background as to why I feel so strongly and as to what I plan to do with your beautiful girls.

Along time ago at a kitchen table in an all-black, middle/working class neighborhood in St. Louis, Mo.'s North County a young Danielle Belton, age five, loved to draw and color more than anything in the world. My older sister, aka "Big Sis, bka Denise, didn't like to color, so I inherited all the coloring books she never used.

I could draw for hours and color for hours, but all I drew and colored were white people.

I would take out my Barbie coloring book and select the yellow crayon for her hair, the blue crayon for her eyes and the pink "flesh" colored crayon for her skin. I would make her "beautiful" in what my little noggin thought was beauty.

What's funny is my parents, like many black parents, were trying their hardest to make sure myself and my sister had positive images of other black women and ourselves. My mother constantly fought with the toy store owners about getting in more black dolls because she wanted to buy me Barbies, but worried about how having a gaggle of blonde Malibu and ballerina Barbies could effect my young mind. She immersed us in our culture. She told us we were beautiful all the time.

Yet I still drew and colored nothing but white people.

Then one day, at that kitchen table, my father approached me. Rather than go into a lengthy speech or be embarrassed or shame me, he approached me as you would approach a five year old.

He asked if he could color with me.

I, of course, was pleased that he wanted to join in. My father worked in management for McDonnell Douglass at the time. He was almost always busy at work or winding down from stress. Plus, he was the sole wage earner in the household, hence we didn't get to spend as much time together. I loved playing with my father. I never turned the man down if he was in the mood.

So he took one Barbie page and I took mine. I, quite proudly, made my Barbie look just like the one on the cover, blonde and blue-eyed. Then I looked over at daddy who was coloring his own Barbie but he had done something entirely unexpected to me. He'd taken the brown crayon and made her skin brown. He'd taken the black crayon and gave her beautiful dark hair. He showed his finished picture to me and said sweetly, "Don't you think she's pretty too?"

This was my first "mind-blown" experience. At five it had never occurred to me that I could make Barbie or any drawing anything I wanted it to be. I was following "the rules." Barbies were white. Beautiful people were white. I had never occurred to me that I could "break the rules." I looked at my dad's coloring and thought that was the most beautiful Barbie in the world.

I never colored a white Barbie again. I wanted them to be all as beautiful as the one my father had made.

He didn't have to lecture. He didn't have to get mad. He understood that I just needed my eyes to open to the possibility.

Years later I would do the same thing for my baby sister Deidre, seeing her do the same thing I did as a little kid, coloring all the people white. I showed her my black drawings and she too agreed, the black Barbies were beautiful too.

Whether we realize it or not, no matter how hard we try, the world is sending a message to our children: You are not good enough. You are not pretty enough. You are not wanted.

This is told to Asian girls about their eyes. To Latinas about their brown skin and dark hair. Told to anyone with a permanent tan and a flat nose.

And it's told to us.

We see it and hear it all the time. I went to a great elementary school with great teachers, yet I had a principal who seemed to relish in telling us how awful we were. I had a third grade teacher once tell our class we should be proud we were brought here as slaves from Africa because people in Africa were starving and poor. (My mother had a few words with that teacher and she later apologized to the class.) My mother did find us black dolls that we loved. My mother continued to tell us we were beautiful as we were. And it was an all-day, everyday struggle when every image in magazines, on TV, at school and even from other children is telling you -- not good enough.


From being in elementary school and hearing other little black girls my age fantasize about marrying white men to have "pretty babies," to being a freshman in high school and having a jealous friend berate me for having "thick lips."

Of course by then, all my parents' hard work had not been in vain. When someone criticized my thick lips I blinked at them like they were insane. I knew my lips were beautiful. I knew some woman in Hollywood was lying on a plastic surgeon's table getting injections to get what God gave me naturally. How could it be ugly if people were paying for it?

I was sensitive about being called a nerd (although that never stopped me from being nerdy) and sensitive about having such a big ass (but that had more to do with not liking negative male attention from perverts), but when it came to my large nose, thick lips, big eyes and undeniable black features I knew I was the **** and everyone else was wrong.

That's why you have to wage a war from the time your son or daughter crawls out of the crib to get them to where my parents got me. You have to show them over and over images of our beauty. My mother bought us the book "When and Where I Enter" and "I Dream A World." I read "The Color Complex" as a teen. We had regular study sessions over the works of Jawanza Kunjufu. She even dragged us to his one film, "Up Against the Wall."

She told us over her pride in having an "African nose" when people mocked her flat, wide nose. She encouraged us in music and dance and art, surrounding us with as much good energy as she could. Because it was her versus the world, a world that wanted us to believe we were not beloved or lovely.

Our father took thousands of pictures of us. My grandfather introduced us all as his "pretty, smart granddaughters from St. Louis." And no matter how bad a day I had at school I would look in the mirror with tears in my eyes and see myself as beautiful and tell the world it was crazy if it couldn't see what I saw.

I was lucky, but I can't say other black women were. And even with all my mother's work, I still had complexes over my hair, dealt with other people's complexes because it's hard to block out that message that says you're wrong.

So now we have the beautiful First Daughters, two girls who remind me of my sisters and myself. Of my cousins and elementary school friends and to hear someone talk like Sasha and Malia are some rarity, two lovely black girls, as if they were some anomaly you can't find, enraged me.

Here finally, finally an image little black children could see and go "that's me!" They could see everyone complimenting their beauty and feeling proud knowing they shared in that beauty. But then this statement was made by Marlene Wallach, president of Wilhelmina Kids & Teens, was like a kick in the teeth.

(T)he First Daughters are tough subjects to match. “It’s a very specific age and a very specific ethnicity, so there aren’t that many girls that would necessarily fit the bill.”

I wondered if I was making too much of it, but then remembered five year old me coloring those pages and pages of white women and thinking every white woman I saw was the most beautiful woman I'd ever seen simply because she was white. I remember once arguing down to my mother that I DID have blue eyes, fixated on a slender, non-existent blue ring around my dark, dark brown eyes. Then to cry, reading Toni Morrison's "The Bluest Eye" nearly 15 years later and finding that Pecola Breedlove was inside of me and just about every black woman I knew, even if they fought that negativity every day. And when I framed it that way I knew I wasn't over-reacting. I was taking a stand.

Enough is enough. Light or dark. Long hair or short. Curly or straight. I'd seen many beautiful little black girls in my lifetime, yet they were growing up just like I had, watching MTV and wondering what's wrong with me. Flipping through the pages of Elle and Vibe Magazines. Stuck between Jennifer Anniston and a video ho in what you were supposed to be.

So with this project I wanted to both bring to light the true beauty of all girls, especially those battling that negativity that destroys self-esteem and makes for a deep sadness of feeling unwanted and unloved. I wanted to not just make a piece of literature to combat ignorance, but a love letter to all those little girls I wanted to embrace. That I wanted to sit down next to and color with. That I want to tell "you are special, if to NO ONE ELSE, but to me."

One part political piece, one part tribute, I'm going to take the beauty of these ordinary girls and show that Sasha and Malia are simply part of the bigger picture, simply two stars in a galaxy of lovely, little girls. That many black parents love and see the beauty in their children just as Barack and Michelle cherish the wit and brilliance and beauty in their daughters.

And that's why I'm doing it.

Out of the pictures sent to me I will select from many of them and send a brief questionnaire to the parents, relatives and friends who submitted the little beauties asking about their personalities and talents and put together a tribute piece to our children.

Then use it as a weapon against ignorance.

I will post the full work on the blog and in a hardcopy form to be sent out to the blind so that they may hopefully open their eyes, hearts and minds and see how shallow they have been.

If it heals the heart or helps prevent the pain of another Pecola, another me, another black woman struggling with her own self-image, it's worth it.

shellyboo

Xiney wrote: »

But I think it must be very real - and I don't think as a white person I will ever be able to comprehend it, same as how men can not comprehend the discrimination women face.

This was going through my mind as well - do I just not get this because I'm white? I mean, I've never in my life thought "I'd love to be black" or "I wish I had more Asian eyes"... is that because I'm not in a minority? If I was brought up a Caucasian kid amongst, say, Indian people, would I aspire to look more Indian?

Or, is what we're seeing here simply classic body issues, self-hatred, but coincidentally directed at so-called "race markers" like a nose, or skin colour?

Michellenman

Thaedydal wrote: »

What do you expect when all media protray pretty women and women to aspire to look like to be white, hell it even starts with barbie and baby dolls.



http://blacksnob.squarespace.com/snob_blog/2009/2/3/on-little-black-girls-beauty-and-barbie-dolls.html

Only recently has Matel brought out a Barbie doll that has actual 'typical' black features and wasn't just a black version of the generic white barbie doll. Madness.

pikachucheeks

shellyboo wrote: »

This was going through my mind as well - do I just not get this because I'm white? I mean, I've never in my life thought "I'd love to be black" or "I wish I had more Asian eyes"... is that because I'm not in a minority? If I was brought up a Caucasian kid amongst, say, Indian people, would I aspire to look more Indian?

I can relate to those girls on a very slight level.
I've always wanted to look Asian. Not to the extent I'd have surgery, but I find Asian women to be incredibly beautiful and I've always wished I could look like them.

I think I've aspired to look like them because of my interest in Japan and Asian culture. I don't think it's a common thing, for a lot of Irish girls to want to look Asian, however.

Latchy

I have being watchin this programme ,still on at the moement and sad to think that people need to feel they should try change their features /colour of skin for whatever reason .

Nevyn

shellyboo wrote: »

This was going through my mind as well - do I just not get this because I'm white? I mean, I've never in my life thought "I'd love to be black" or "I wish I had more Asian eyes"... is that because I'm not in a minority? If I was brought up a Caucasian kid amongst, say, Indian people, would I aspire to look more Indian?

Or, is what we're seeing here simply classic body issues, self-hatred, but coincidentally directed at so-called "race markers" like a nose, or skin colour?

I think it's an interplay of classic body issues compounded by race markers and growing up in a world where you get told you are the wrong race to be pretty.

Wibbs

One thing hit me when I was a kid. My grandfather was a painter and one day he turned to me and showed me a tube of oil paint that was entitled "flesh tone". It was some shade of pink. He said this is not flesh, its not even white flesh. I then saw the same written on sticking plasters for cuts. I still see it today. sticking plaster is mid tone pink. Same with most camera exposure meters, they don't expose dark skin well, they're calibrated for white. Its all bollox considering we're one of the most inbred closely related monkeys on earth.

Latchy

Every race by definition has it share of beautiful /average / / ugly people . And having a nose job /face lift is one thing . But Asians or Blacks wanting to be white is sort of a betrayal of their own race which in a way , flys in the face of multi cultured society

Bob the Seducer

In relation to Japan and Korea, the pale skin thing is not really about wanting to be more white - there are historical connotations, pale skin was associated with the upper classes, the darker or more tanned you were the lower class you were (your skin was tanned because you worked outside)

The explanation I've been given about the eyes surgery is that it mainly is to make your eyes look bigger, the shape of your eyes doesn't really change with the surgery. It creates a fold to give a double eyelid rather than a single one.

liah

Works both ways!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJhSogkI284

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6drdI_RBt8

pikachucheeks

Bob the Seducer wrote: »

In relation to Japan and Korea...

The explanation I've been given about the eyes surgery is that it mainly is to make your eyes look bigger, the shape of your eyes doesn't really change with the surgery. It creates a fold to give a double eyelid rather than a single one.

I was told it was to change the shape. I was going through a Japanese magazine for teenage girls with my friend and came across an ad for eye surgery. It wasn't advertising the surgery to make eyes bigger, but to make them more "western".

My friend told me that this form of surgery is now very popular in Japan. Quite a few high profile women featured in the magazine had had the surgery done and she said many women are now seeking the same operation.

In Japan, western women are seen as beautiful. A lot of Japanese men and women are infatuated with pale skin, light hair and light coloured eyes - presumably because they're so rare over there.

The magazine echoed this - it was full of young women with dyed blonde hair, wearing contacts.
It was FULL of ads for colour contact lenses and plastic surgery.

She allowed me to keep the magazine, if I can find it, I'll scan some images in for everyone.

Cupcake_Crisis

I saw that the other night and was really shocked! Imo, some of the most beautiful women in the world have coloured skin, take Frieda Pinto for example, an absolute stunner!!!

shellyboo

pikachucheeks wrote: »

I was told it was to change the shape. I was going through a Japanese magazine for teenage girls with my friend and came across an ad for eye surgery. It wasn't advertising the surgery to make eyes bigger, but to make them more "western".

My friend told me that this form of surgery is now very popular in Japan. Quite a few high profile women featured in the magazine had had the surgery done and she said many women are now seeking the same operation.

In Japan, western women are seen as beautiful. A lot of Japanese men and women are infatuated with pale skin, light hair and light coloured eyes - presumably because they're so rare over there.

The magazine echoed this - it was full of young women with dyed blonde hair, wearing contacts.
It was FULL of ads for colour contact lenses and plastic surgery.

She allowed me to keep the magazine, if I can find it, I'll scan some images in for everyone.

That's 100% what the surgeon in the show said. Yes, it's to make eyes bigger, but also to give them a "double fold" to comform with the Western ideal. The surgeon made no bones about it being Westernisation surgery, and it didn't stop at eyes... there was jaw reshaping and chin restructuring as well. He'd even had some of the surgery done himself, to look more Western.

pikachucheeks

There's actually specific groups of women within Japanese society, dedicated to emulating western style. Namely, the Ganguro girls:

wikipedia wrote:

Ganguro is an alternative fashion trend of blonde or orange hair and tanned skin among young Japanese women... The purpose is to elicit the iconic look of tanned, blonde girls of California, USA or Chavs/Neds of the UK...

Researchers in the field of Japanese studies believe that ganguro is a form of revenge against traditional Japanese society due to resentment of neglect, isolation, and constraint of Japanese society. This is their attempt at individuality, self-expression, and freedom, in open defiance of school standards and regulations.

liah

pikachucheeks wrote: »

There's actually specific groups of women within Japanese society, dedicated to emulating western style. Namely, the Ganguro girls:

God they're horrific, aren't they?

And we complain about Oompa Loompa girls in Ireland.. christ almighty.

pikachucheeks

liah wrote: »

God they're horrific, aren't they?

And we complain about Oompa Loompa girls in Ireland.. christ almighty.

I know this might sound ridiculous to say, but I actually think some of them look pretty cool...
Not the make-up - the make up is silly, but I like the coloured hair and the mad clothes.
They look like they're having fun, it's like a complete escape from reality and social norms.

Japanese society is traditionally very reserved, so I can only imagine what sort of uproar they're causing!

liah

pikachucheeks wrote: »

I know this might sound ridiculous to say, but I actually think some of them look pretty cool...
Not the make-up - the make up is silly, but I like the coloured hair and the mad clothes.
They look like they're having fun, it's like a complete escape from reality and social norms.

Japanese society is traditionally very reserved, so I can only imagine what sort of uproar they're causing!

The makeup is what I'm talking about. The tan is just brutal. They look like what I'd be taking out of my oven on Christmas Day!

I like the mad clothes and hair and stuff too but do they really need to make their faces look exactly like oompa loompas (and that's not even an exaggeration!)?

speedboatchase

liah wrote: »

Works both ways!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJhSogkI284

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6drdI_RBt8

Someone's been on Cracked.com lately

But yeah, someone lightening or darkening their skin is pretty typical in society, obviously when surgeries involved it may taken as going too far but it's not our right to judge tbh. Darker skinned people want to look lighter and lighter skinned people want to look darker, if we're generalising

Das Kitty

liah wrote: »

The makeup is what I'm talking about. The tan is just brutal. They look like what I'd be taking out of my oven on Christmas Day!

I like the mad clothes and hair and stuff too but do they really need to make their faces look exactly like oompa loompas (and that's not even an exaggeration!)?

Well there's an element of pulling the piss out of Western girls in it. They're purposely looking orange and in no way trying to pass it off as real tan. They're a bit of an offshoot of Harajuku, the Japanese youth culture phenomenon that dress up in costumes / styles and display themselves as living art. I think it's pretty cool and unique anyway. I in no way believe the Ganguro want to look truly western.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harajuku

I used to work with an indian girl. She was married to an Irish guy. She told me that her sister was "looking for a husband" and they have magazines dedicated to personal adds in India, not the lonely hearts type we have here but more like a buy and sell, they meant business!! She showed me some on online ones and it's quite scary! They list the colour of their skin, if it's light, they also give information on the rest of their families skin colour. The shape of their nose etc.

One thing which I found amazing was that her sister was now going to have awful trouble finding a husband because she (my friend) married a white man!

Warfi

I spent a year in Japan some years back. Being Western made you stand out like a sore thumb (in areas outside of Tokyo, Kyoto, Osaka etc). My 'high nose', white skin and boobs were commented on, my boobs were poked at by women (I started to miss Irish men then ).
There's a huge fascination with western society and all it entails. Japan is a very homogeneous society, look down the carriage of a train and all you see is dark straight hair. Add to that the pressure to conform in a society that has a population of 130,000,000 in a country the size of New Zealand (hence the importance to conform...their rules and upbringing help them to live in close proximity, most of the time).
I'm not surprised to see that they want to be Western and get surgery to do so. I don't think it's solely based on wanting to 'look better' though. I think part of it might be down to the Western lifestyle Japanese people envisage.

Warfi

pikachucheeks wrote: »

There's actually specific groups of women within Japanese society, dedicated to emulating western style. Namely, the Ganguro girls:

They remind me of drag queens! It's a form of escapism for them I suppose

Khannie

Deleted User wrote: »

One thing which I found amazing was that her sister was now going to have awful trouble finding a husband because she (my friend) married a white man!

I don't understand. Why would that make it more difficult for her sister?

Nevyn

She has married outside of her cast, race and culture which can be said to be bring shame on the family and lessen her honour and status and that of the whole family decreasing her sister's marriageability.

Lux23

shellyboo wrote: »

Not to the same extent. I know tanning is bad for you, but it's hardly as extreme as surgery.

Well those people who have died off skin cancer may disagree with you there.

It is a bit strange that people may get surgery so they can have more white features but its something that has been going on for years. I know one Jewish family in Dublin with 5 girls who all had nose jobs by their 16th birthday. Why can't a big conker of a nose be just as beautiful as a small button nose?

MissFlitworth

I came across this video a while back and it just horrifiied me, girls glueing their eyelids to get a 'double eyelid' european look. The little pink forky stick thing in particular would be getting nowhere near my face.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SMPB3X5Osc

RealEstateKing

what they haven't got.

Most fashionable ideas of physical beauty (i.e. the ones that are not based on things that are universally attractive like youth, clear skin, and the rest) are designed on the basis of what it is hardest to be:

Thus in many African countries, being overweight is considered attractive, as it is a sign of wealth and luxury. In developed coutries the opposite is true, it is a sign of status that you can manage to stay thin, while surrounded by chocolate biscuits on all sides.

In Ireland, probably the least attractive thing one could be is pale skinned and red-haired - but take that pale-skinned red-haired person to Brazil and they'll be pounced upon!

In small doses this is harmless enough, but when it is allied to the profit-motive it becomes extremely dangerous, there is millions upon millions of Euros to be made from forcing women to feel unsatisfied with their looks, and that is why this stuff happens.

pikachucheeks

Das Kitty wrote: »

Well there's an element of pulling the piss out of Western girls in it. They're purposely looking orange and in no way trying to pass it off as real tan. They're a bit of an offshoot of Harajuku...

I don't think it's pulling the piss at all, to be honest. I've read about these girls for years and they're very serious about what they do. Harajuku is a meeting place for Japan's alternative scene, much like Cork's Paul Street, or Dublin's Central Bank - they're not dressing up as a joke, they're dressing up to be different, to stand out and in some cases, to defy social norms and push boundaries.

I agree with you about the tan. They are purposely trying to look orange. Perhaps some of them are doing it to mock western culture, but in my opinion, based on my reading, I'd suggest that most of them do it to escape their own skin colour, by going as far in the opposite direction as they possibly can.

As I understand it, Japan has a very rigid, conversative culture - these young people are rebelling against it and would appear to look to the west, where we have a seemingly more free, open-minded society.

Warfi wrote: »

I'm not surprised to see that they want to be Western and get surgery to do so. I don't think it's solely based on wanting to 'look better' though. I think part of it might be down to the Western lifestyle Japanese people envisage.

I'd agree. I think these people are getting surgery not only to look "better" or more "western", but to actually try and capture some of the western lifestyle they seemingly lust after.

Warfi wrote: »

It's a form of escapism for them I suppose

Definitely agree. It's a escapism from Japanese society and regulations. I'd love to go to Harajuku and see them.

opinion guy

She has married outside of her cast, race and culture which can be said to be bring shame on the family and lessen her honour and status and that of the whole family decreasing her sister's marriageability.

That sort of stuff does my head in.


Have visited Japan and wanted to point out that the Japanese are very paleskinned in general anyhow - moreso than the Irish I'd say. Have to say thou, and I didn't expect this before I went, the women in Japan are absolutely stunning. Its very odd over there thou - people practically wear uniforms during the day - Tokyo is like a city of priests and nuns during the day - hahah. but they go nuts at night in rebellion so this orange skin thing those girls are doing isn't that strange. since the average skin tone over there is 'goth', its kind of not surprising that people are going to try and look different when they are cutting loose

Warfi

opinion guy wrote: »

. Have to say thou, and I didn't expect this before I went, the women in Japan are absolutely stunning.

so true. I told some of my students that Japanese women are seen as very beautiful in the west, found it hard to convince them. I'd say they thought I was just trying to plamás them!

pikachucheeks

Warfi wrote: »

so true. I told some of my students that Japanese women are seen as very beautiful in the west, found it hard to convince them. I'd say they thought I was just trying to plamás them!

I think that's sad. Japanese women are incredibly beautiful. I don't think I'll ever stop being jealous!

Nothing wrong with us western women either though. I think every race is beautiful, in different ways. And obviously, if someone's attractive, it's not because of the colour of their skin, it's much deeper than that.

minidazzler

Khannie wrote: »

I don't understand. Why would that make it more difficult for her sister?

I'm not sure but I am guessing that Indian Guys won't like to be related to a white guy. It's just speculation though, however it sounds like what Whoopsie was insinuating.

I'm Caucasian, but very tanned with almond shaped almost-black eyes, and I've been viewed as 'non-white' for most of my life, so I know much, much better how it feels to be a minority than most white people in this country. I got picked on a lot when I was a kid for being 'brown', and it is the worst feeling I've ever had in my life. It's incomparable to anything else. I actually remember being bullied for being English when I first moved to Ireland and feeling happy, because it had nothing to do with my skin tone. I can't explain exactly what is so bad about racist bullying, but it just makes you feel so inferior. It's something you absolutely cannot change. You can lose weight, you can act cooler, you can change your accent, but you can't change your appearance. I remember when I was 6 or 7, I used to lie in bed and pray to wake up with white skin. I wanted nothing more than to be pale and have freckles and light eyes, like everyone else. Then I would fit in, I would be normal, I would be equal to everyone else.

Like Wibbs said, everything is set up for white people. Foundation colours and underwear colours in 'nude' or 'flesh' certainly aren't the colour of my flesh. It might sound silly but little things like that can really affect you. It reinforces the idea that white skin is the norm and everything else isn't normal. Dolls are usually blonde haired and blue eyed. Yeah they started making darker dolls 20 years ago, but they're nowhere near as common. I don't know what it's like to grow up in India or somewhere where Caucasians aren't the majority, but I know that growing up in this part of the world, I felt extremely awkward and an outcast being who I was. And I'm not even of another race, I'm a 1/4 Italian person who somehow manages to look way, way more foreign than I am. I've had a lot of bad treatment over the years from people who 'mistook' me for an Indian or Middle Eastern. I've learned to accept it over the years, but even now at the age of 24 I still have days when I think my life would be easier if I was pale skinned and blue eyed. I'd love it if every time someone was mean for no reason, or a security guard followed me around a shop, it wasn't always in the back of my head that it could be because of my appearance (and by this age, I have come to realise that's all too often the case).

So yeah, I totally understand why some people would want to look 'whiter'. It's a white peoples world.

pikachucheeks

Thanks for sharing that, Izzy.
Can't have been easy to write that.

opinion guy

Izzy I can in a small way relate to that. have gotten the odd bit of racist abuse over the years randomly. even thou i'm white and 100% irish (so far as i know!!!:eek:), i just hold a tan well. Only thing it goes to prove is pretty much - scumbags are thick!


Edit: I can think of two particular occasions, once being slagged about not being able to speak english and another called a 'spic'. i find a gruff response in my best northsider accent to be very effective at making them going away. weird thing is i'm not that dark at all really ???? who knows

Just saw the programme now, wow. It's interesting to think about the abuse the black girl got from her own community for 'wanting to be white'. I don't know what to think about that really. I can't find it in me to criticize her for that decision.

opinion guy

lol not the eyes. a bit mixed but green if anything :P

america is weird thou eh ? they are so super race conscious over there. weird thing was thou i found myself receiving a bit of black on white racism over there(mild stuff the odd comment or aggressive posturing - nothing scary). but anyhow i didn't react but it was weird. so i've gotten the same kind of abuse for being too dark and too white.

the conclusion ? there are stupid people on every continent

opinion guy

opinion guy wrote: »

Izzy I can in a small way relate to that. have gotten the odd bit of racist abuse over the years randomly. even thou i'm white and 100% irish (so far as i know!!!:eek:), i just hold a tan well. Only thing it goes to prove is pretty much - scumbags are thick!


Edit: I can think of two particular occasions, once being slagged about not being able to speak english and another called a 'spic'. i find a gruff response in my best northsider accent to be very effective at making them going away. weird thing is i'm not that dark at all really ???? who knows

I'm not that dark either, probably a shade or two lighter than most Irish people. I think it's the dark eyes and hair that contribute to looking foreign. I agree a lot of Irish people can be quite dark, look at Colin Farrell for example. He could be my brother (but better looking ) and as far as I know he's just Irish.

I've heard Irish people using the word 'spic' as well - why?? It's not like there was ever any Hispanic immigration here to speak of, or any reason for Irish people to dislike Latin Americans that I can think of. It just seems like they heard it in a movie and thought it was a cool word to use. Then again, the type of people who shout racist abuse are not generally the most intelligent. :rolleyes:

SeekUp

opinion guy wrote: »

they are so super race conscious over there.

Well, it definitely depends on where you are. In terms of focusing on race . . . it's easy not to think about it much when you're the same as everyone around you. If you're in an environment where you don't see or experience racial differences, it's hard to grasp. On the flip side, if you've always been in a mishmosh of different races, everyone just becomes who they are, race is secondary. But in between the two extremes is the gray area . . . it's the people you encounter occasionally, it's the dolls on the shelves that look a particular way (unlike you), it's everything that makes you think life would be better for you if your skin was a different color.

[quote=[Deleted User];62854907]It's interesting to think about the abuse the black girl got from her own community for 'wanting to be white'. I don't know what to think about that really. I can't find it in me to criticize her for that decision.[/quote]

Well . . . I think it's a really strong, sentiment, especially in some black communities, to be proud of who you are and what you look like. In other communities and among other ethnic groups as well, but the image of the strong and successful black woman - and man, for that matter - is one that resonates loudly. So the idea of abandoning your ethnicity not for what someone else looks like in particular, but just to be white, is . . . I don't want to say offensive, but tough to swallow, for sure.

Warfi

[quote=[Deleted User];62853627]
It's a white peoples world.[/quote]

I wonder why there aren't song titles with those words in them? We have 'It's a man's world' after all!

I wonder is it because we (white people) aren't aware of our privileged position? I can imagine that poeple who make those paint colours just label them blindly, and mean no harm, but it goes to show the underlying assumption that to be white is to be 'normal'.

If you want to see 'normal', call around my house when I'm getting out of bed. You'll never think of the word 'normal' in the same way again

Warfi

Warfi wrote: »

I wonder is it because we (white people) aren't aware of our privileged position? I can imagine that poeple who make those paint colours just label them blindly, and mean no harm, but it goes to show the underlying assumption that to be white is to be 'normal'.

That's exactly why. White people are conditioned to think white is 'normal', even though there are far more dark skinned people in the world. Ever taken a look at the colour selection of foundations in Boots? Almost all of them are made for Caucasians. I need a colour at the darker end of the selection, and I'm white. What on earth are people with dark skin supposed to buy? I live in London, which is a really multiracial city, and I saw ONE 'brown' foundation, the rest were different shades of beige, or ivory. The concealer shades 'light, medium and dark' were still all for white complexions. I can totally understand a black person feeling marginalized.

I also find Irish (and to some extent English) people think that 'white' = pasty. I've been asked on numerous occasions what race I am and what I write down on forms. Again, most of the Caucasians in the world would look more similar to me than to the average Irish person, but to them, I'm 'dark'. Even though in a line up of all the different skin tones in the world, I'd be right at the lighter end. Black people aside, most Middle Eastern, South Asians, East Asians, Latin Americans etc are far darker than the darkest Italians or Greeks. Caucasians are a minority to begin with, and light skinned, freckly ones even rarer. I don't think most white people realise this. Blue eyed folks are common in Ireland, but make up only 2% of the world's population, for example.

shellyboo

[quote=[Deleted User];62854907]Just saw the programme now, wow. It's interesting to think about the abuse the black girl got from her own community for 'wanting to be white'. I don't know what to think about that really. I can't find it in me to criticize her for that decision.[/quote]

Thanks for posting Izzy, you've raised some really interesting points.

It's not so much the people I was criticising, I fully support their right to want to change, I was more despairing over the fact they thought the needed to, and horrified that a doctor would indulge such a request.

I mean, clearly the problem is not with how they look, it's about their perception and their lack of ability to accept that and other people's reaction to it... a psychological problem, essentially. And I'm not sure I agree with using plastic surgery to treat a psychological problem.

Is it something you'd ever consider, or would you stay looking as you are? Like, if you could wake up tomorrow looking as you do, or looking classically "white", which would you pick? No need to answer if it's too senstive a question.

speedboatchase

[quote=[Deleted User];62861234]Ever taken a look at the colour selection of foundations in Boots? Almost all of them are made for Caucasians. I need a colour at the darker end of the selection, and I'm white. What on earth are people with dark skin supposed to buy?[/QUOTE]

Or maybe Boots aren't racist or deliberately marginalising races and it's just a case of simple supply and demand?

rannerap

there actually are a few dark foundation brands out there,i know beverly knight just released one.Its not just dark colours missing from the variety,I can never find a foundation light enough for my skin tone because im so pale.So its not just for darker skin theyre lacking,just a lack of variety in general