Legality on usage of the word "Doctor"?

2Scoops

drzhivago wrote: »

There are a very small number of programs in US that allow direct entry to medicine as an undergraduate degree

That's very much news to me! Which colleges offer this?

drzhivago wrote: »

In the US they describe medical school as Graduate or Grad school as law also is

Nope, grad school is separate to both med school and law school.

drzhivago wrote: »

Sorry Mr scoop you err also

And that's Dr. Scoop to you!

sam34

drzhivago wrote: »

Osteopaths do medical training get DO degree and can apply for mainstream medical posts, residencies etc

sorry, its early in teh morning and im a bit bleary-eyed, so maybe im reading this wrong, but are you saying that all osteopaths have medical degrees?

nesf

sam34 wrote: »

sorry, its early in teh morning and im a bit bleary-eyed, so maybe im reading this wrong, but are you saying that all osteopaths have medical degrees?

In the US Osteopaths are required to get the DO degree which is equivalent to the MD degree in terms of the ability to get licenced to practice medicine. They're essentially trained as doctors with some oestopathy thrown in. That's what he's referring to.

It's utterly different Osteopathy in pretty much every other country where osteopaths don't typically receive medical training equivalent to "MDs".

So here in Ireland an Osteopath wouldn't be a "licensed doctor". It's all terribly confusing really.

r3nu4l

Everyone has talked about the Ph.D but nobody has yet mentioned the D.Phil

I believe the D.Phil is generally awarded by Oxford in place of the Ph.D. There is also the D.Sc offered by many scientific bodies (as opposed to academic bodies) as a recognition of achievement.

They are all doctorates.

nesf

r3nu4l wrote: »

Everyone has talked about the Ph.D but nobody has yet mentioned the D.Phil

I believe the D.Phil is generally awarded by Oxford in place of the Ph.D. There is also the D.Sc offered by many scientific bodies (as opposed to academic bodies) as a recognition of achievement.

They are all doctorates.

D.Phil and D.Sc and a few other higher doctorates are awarded by the NUI. Extremely hard to get requiring you to basically excel among your national peers in your field as an academic. Between three departments I've studied under I've only seen one D.Phil and the guy who had it had the kind of academic CV that could have gotten him into any top college internationally.

Details and the full list of Doctorates awarded for published work here: http://www.nui.ie/college/docs/publishedWork_regs.pdf

r3nu4l

nesf wrote: »

D.Phil and D.Sc and a few other higher doctorates are awarded by the NUI. Extremely hard to get requiring you to basically excel among your national peers in your field as an academic. Between three departments I've studied under I've only seen one D.Phil and the guy who had it had the kind of academic CV that could have gotten him into any top college internationally.

Details and the full list of Doctorates awarded for published work here: http://www.nui.ie/college/docs/publishedWork_regs.pdf

Amazing how little consistency there is regarding the D.Phil. For example, as I said above, Oxford does not confer a PhD, it instead confers the D.Phil as standard NOT as a 'higher' doctorate. In many universities in Australia and NZ this is also the standard doctoral degree. In the UK Buckingham and Sussex University choose to award the D.Phil as opposed to the Ph.D

Regarding the D.Sc, I know one person who used to lecture in NUI Maynooth who has the award and likewise has been headhunted by Harvard, Cambridge and other top flight institutions.

EDIT: I know several D.Phils awarded from Oxford and they're not anymore special than any PhD I know.

nesf

r3nu4l wrote: »

Amazing how little consistency there is regarding the D.Phil. For example, as I said above, Oxford does not confer a PhD, it instead confers the D.Phil as standard NOT as a 'higher' doctorate. In many universities in Australia and NZ this is also the standard doctoral degree. In the UK Buckingham and Sussex University choose to award the D.Phil as opposed to the Ph.D

Regarding the D.Sc, I know one person who used to lecture in NUI Maynooth who has the award and likewise has been headhunted by Harvard, Cambridge and other top flight institutions.

EDIT: I know several D.Phils awarded from Oxford and they're not anymore special than any PhD I know.

Yeah D.Phil from Oxford isn't anything special. Just a PhD from a middling college...

tallaght01

drzhivago wrote: »

Not so Dr Tallaght
sorry to be the bringer of bad news

Convention has it that surgeons were trained in similar guilds to barbers in the 17th/18th centuries and thus were not Physicians or Drs, hence they had the title MR

As surgery developed and became recognised as a specialised area of "Medical Training" when surgeons were awarded the title Fellow of the Royal College of Surgeons X they reverted to becoming MR again in honour of the roots of that branch of the profession

Up to recently people were awarded FRCS after basic training and completion of exams, now they get MRCS and thus there have been arguments that the MR title should not be awarded until FRCS is achieved which is now at the end of SPR training and completion of intercollegiate exams



You are always a MR tallaght my man as joe soap on street who you meet does not know you are a DR at all

In the medical world however I believe you may be incorrect regarding MRCS as I believe FRCS is the title which by convention confers the title MR

I'm not sure I'm as wrong as you think. Certainly back in the day when i did surgery, the SHOs were definitely called "Mr" when they'd passed the membership exams. Now whether this is wrong or wrong by convention, it's what was happening. Lots of surgical registrars in the UK (haven't done surg in Ireland, so can't really comment) are "Mr". The fellowship was an exit exam. My Registrar was a 2nd year reg and he was a "Mr".

drzhivago wrote: »

Sorry DR TAllaght you are really striking out today

Few in USA do a basic medical degree

Most pursue medicine as a postgraduate degree and are thus awarded a Medical Doctor (MD) degree


Not necessarily but it helps academically



MD is lower in UNI scale than PHD, if you are progressing well in MD and publishing a lot you may be advised to hold on for another year and submit for PHD not MD

.

I think you're splitting hairs here. I did my medical degree as a "postgrad" degree. All the GAMSATers do their medical degree as a "postgrad" degree. But it's still a basic medical degree, the same as is thought to school leavers in Ireland.

Plus, I'm pretty sure some unis offer the MD as a PhD/DSc equivalent.

And an MD is all but essential in a lot of the teaching hospitals, to get a consultant post. Or it was in the tertiary kids hospitals I worked in. It's not the case in Oz, though. Though we all have to have a masters, and most have a PhD too, in my specialty.

Not at all confusing reall

drzhivago

tallaght01 wrote: »

I'm not sure I'm as wrong as you think. Certainly back in the day when i did surgery, the SHOs were definitely called "Mr" when they'd passed the membership exams. Now whether this is wrong or wrong by convention, it's what was happening. Lots of surgical registrars in the UK (haven't done surg in Ireland, so can't really comment) are "Mr". The fellowship was an exit exam. My Registrar was a 2nd year reg and he was a "Mr".

you may be correct as you say that this was what happened on the ground but this thread started with discussions on legality


There is no legality surrounding the MR title but my learned surgical friends inform me that in the statutes of the colleges it was a title reserved fro FEllows and not members of the college and before anyone says that membership didnt exist previously it did, if you look at the hallowed halls of the RCSI you will see many individuals with title MRCS after their names one hundred years ago and others with FRCS

tallaght01 wrote: »

I think you're splitting hairs here. I did my medical degree as a "postgrad" degree. All the GAMSATers do their medical degree as a "postgrad" degree. But it's still a basic medical degree, the same as is thought to school leavers in Ireland.

Not really one who can afford to split heirs losing too many but i will agree I was being pedantic about titles and degrees

Yes you did your medicine as a postgrad degree but in US when they do it this way they award MD not MB, Ireland and UK still award MB

tallaght01 wrote: »

Plus, I'm pretty sure some unis offer the MD as a PhD/DSc equivalent.

In ireland MD lower on scale than PHD or DSC

tallaght01 wrote: »

And an MD is all but essential in a lot of the teaching hospitals, to get a consultant post. Or it was in the tertiary kids hospitals I worked in. It's not the case in Oz, though. Though we all have to have a masters, and most have a PhD too, in my specialty.

Not at all confusing reall

The MD in Ireland is not a requirement but people get more points in interviews for same

Many jobs awarded in teaching hospitals in recent years to guys without MDs even in the medical specialties

Personally done my masters, and another and MD so covering all bases just in case, too cowardly to try for phd though

drzhivago

2Scoops wrote: »

That's very much news to me! Which colleges offer this?

Dont have the names of the programs, am doing fellowship in US at moment and meet a lot of residents and fellows who have described this but none knew which schools or where

2Scoops wrote: »

Nope, grad school is separate to both med school and law school.

And that's Dr. Scoop to you!

My understanding of the term grad school or graduate school is the University you go to after your basic degree to specialise so the MED and LAW schools are grad schools in that sense

Apologies for not giving you the appropriate title Dr Scoops but how is one to know these days

2Scoops

drzhivago wrote: »

Dont have the names of the programs, am doing fellowship in US at moment and meet a lot of residents and fellows who have described this but none knew which schools or where

I had a look for examples of these over the last few days - I found that Brown offer one, but it's not so straightforward as what happens in Ireland. They award an 8-year (!) dual degree in medicine and a life science degree. So, essentially, it's the same as doing a degree and then entering med school but without the MCAT. And it's invitation only - they scoop a few high achievers out of the high school system and put them in.

drzhivago wrote: »

My understanding of the term grad school or graduate school is the University you go to after your basic degree to specialise so the MED and LAW schools are grad schools in that sense

The grad school is almost always a separate administrative entity to the med school and/or law school in US universities. Different deans, different funding, different mission.

drzhivago wrote: »

Apologies for not giving you the appropriate title Dr Scoops but how is one to know these days

No worries - I'm not bothered about titles but given the thread topic, I just couldn't resist! :pac:

JuliusCaesar

Ok lads I'm left totally puzzled now about something I thought I knew! Anyway, I now need to know as I might do this, and now I need to know what's the difference between a PhD and a Professional Doctorate. (OK, basically I need to know is it worthwhile, will people look down on me for it, and can I be called Dr Caesar?)

thanks!

nesf

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

Ok lads I'm left totally puzzled now about something I thought I knew! Anyway, I now need to know as I might do this, and now I need to know what's the difference between a PhD and a Professional Doctorate. (OK, basically I need to know is it worthwhile, will people look down on me for it, and can I be called Dr Caesar?)

thanks!

As far as I'm aware you're entitled to the prefix Dr. with a professional doctorate but you would not be eligible to append PhD to your title with that doctorate, you could only use DHealth etc.

In reality the form of address is meaningless, in a formal context you do list your qualifications after your name and it's here is where the real nitty gritty starts on what you can say. A PhD grad could never append anything but PhD after their name and so on.

In general, and you'll see this a lot with books, if someone claims "Dr." as their title they'll often (if they are genuine) list what their doctorate is in on the blurb or at the start of the book and from where they received it since this is crucially important!. If someone doesn't give any details as to where they've earned the title then be suspicious since there is rarely a good reason to hide your specialty.

imported_guy

nesf wrote: »

In general, and you'll see this a lot with books, if someone claims "Dr." as their title they'll often (if they are genuine) list what their doctorate is in on the blurb or at the start of the book and from where they received it since this is crucially important!. If someone doesn't give any details as to where they've earned the title then be suspicious since there is rarely a good reason to hide your specialty.

this is pretty important, and im america even doctors dont call themselves dr's like Dr. XXX they use XXX, MD unless adressing each other formally

tallaght01

imported_guy wrote: »

this is pretty important, and im america even doctors dont call themselves dr's like Dr. XXX they use XXX, MD unless adressing each other formally

Who on earth calls themselves xxx xxx MD, when they're talking INformally????

ballsymchugh

tallaght01 wrote: »

Who on earth calls themselves xxx xxx MD, when they're talking INformally????

i do, works well with the ladies in coppers!!

imported_guy

tallaght01 wrote: »

Who on earth calls themselves xxx xxx MD, when they're talking INformally????

no one? they use the first name?

i was implying that they write xxx xxx MD, rather than Dr. xxx xxx in their publications etc

nesf

tallaght01 wrote: »

Who on earth calls themselves xxx xxx MD, when they're talking INformally????

People who've become doctors in the past week? It's kinda the same as people who make sure they're "Dr. X" in the phonebook*. Some just like showing off, most thankfully get tired of it very quickly.


*Personally I've never gotten this, if I was a doctor the last thing I'd want is for my personal number to be easy to find publicly.

Vas_Guy

Historically, medicine has always been longer (and, arguably, harder)
than a normal Batchelor's course, but has only ever included a minor
element of research (the usual requirement for a PhD). Universities
could not sanction the granting of a PhD for medics, but instead
decided to allow them the use of the title "Dr" as a courtesy title. In
a similar fashion, youngest sons of the nobility take "Lord" as a
courtesy title, despite never having been awarded a peerage in their
own right. Also, wife's of the nobility take "Lady", "Countess" etc.
simply by virtue of who they are married to.

Surgeons are called Mr. that goes back to the middle ages when surgeons were not university educated unlike physicians.

As far as Dentists are concerned, they have only recently (in the 90s)
allowed to use "Dr", again purely as a courtesy title only. I assume
the same will happen for Vets.

In Ireland a MD is a doctor of medicine a medical postgraduate research degree, like a phd, in the US a MD is an undergraduate medical degree.

There is also a debate over doctor and Doctor, a doctor is the courtesy title ie medics, dentists, etc and Doctor those who have a MD, Phd, Dphil, etc, etc

beeno67

Friend of mine in UK told me of a nurse working in his hospital who has a doctorate and insists on being called doctor. Confuses the hell out of patients. Her name badge even has Dr written on it.

Vas_Guy

beeno67 wrote: »

Friend of mine in UK told me of a nurse working in his hospital who has a doctorate and insists on being called doctor. Confuses the hell out of patients. Her name badge even has Dr written on it.

I've heard a similar story, i know a few nurses who have phds though they mainly work in the universities

nesf

beeno67 wrote: »

Friend of mine in UK told me of a nurse working in his hospital who has a doctorate and insists on being called doctor. Confuses the hell out of patients. Her name badge even has Dr written on it.

Um, "time and place"? I mean, is there any good served by having Dr. on your name badge in a hospital when you "only" have a PhD?

r3nu4l

nesf wrote: »

Um, "time and place"? I mean, is there any good served by having Dr. on your name badge in a hospital when you "only" have a PhD?

Well let's face it, the public need education. Many years ago only a woman was a nurse, now we have plenty of male nurses...and surprise, surprise, they aren't all screaming homosexuals mincing around the wards!!

Likewise, the public needs to be educated as to what 'doctor' can mean. Unfortunately medicine really took to the title of 'doctor' and as a result the general public in hospitals assume that any doctor must be a medical doctor. That perception needs to change. The nurse is perfectly entitled to describe herself as 'Doctor' imo, especially if it's a PhD.

nesf

r3nu4l wrote: »

Well let's face it, the public need education. Many years ago only a woman was a nurse, now we have plenty of male nurses...and surprise, surprise, they aren't all screaming homosexuals mincing around the wards!!

Likewise, the public needs to be educated as to what 'doctor' can mean. Unfortunately medicine really took to the title of 'doctor' and as a result the general public in hospitals assume that any doctor must be a medical doctor. That perception needs to change. The nurse is perfectly entitled to describe herself as 'Doctor' imo, especially if it's a PhD.

She's perfectly entitled to call herself doctor but I can't see any good reason for doing so in such a context because people will inevitably assume it means "medical doctor".

It's like this, if someone asks if there's a doctor on a plane the guy with philosophy PhD doesn't stick up his hand. Likewise if someone asked them if they were a doctor in general conversation they'd probably say "no, I have a PhD" or "yes I have a PhD in Applied Ethics with respect to the usage of titles in contextually ambiguous circumstances".

Just because you're entitled to use a title (hehe) doesn't mean you should use it where it's bound to cause confusion as to your role!

DrIndy

nesf wrote: »

She's perfectly entitled to call herself doctor but I can't see any good reason for doing so in such a context because people will inevitably assume it means "medical doctor".

It's like this, if someone asks if there's a doctor on a plane the guy with philosophy PhD doesn't stick up his hand. Likewise if someone asked them if they were a doctor in general conversation they'd probably say "no, I have a PhD" or "yes I have a PhD in Applied Ethics with respect to the usage of titles in contextually ambiguous circumstances".

Just because you're entitled to use a title (hehe) doesn't mean you should use it where it's bound to cause confusion as to your role!

I think that is very well put.

Correct me if I am wrong - but the origin of the title "doctor" is in fact from the hippocratic oath where we agree to teach the sons of our brother the art of medicine free of charge.

Hence "Doctor" means teacher and medical professionals and associated professionals dentistry are granted this honorary title because of the hippocratic oath - this still has relevance today as part of your medical duties as a doctor is to teach students with as little quibble as possible and this still largely means for free.

PhD and other doctorates entitle people to teach in universities - hence they are the true "Doctors" as they have attained the highest degree possible in their subject and are now entitled to teach others this knowledge.

Origins:
Middle English, an expert, authority, from Old French docteur, from Latin doctor, teacher, from docre, to teach; see dek- in Indo-European roots.

SomeDose

r3nu4l wrote: »

Well let's face it, the public need education. Many years ago only a woman was a nurse, now we have plenty of male nurses...and surprise, surprise, they aren't all screaming homosexuals mincing around the wards!!

Likewise, the public needs to be educated as to what 'doctor' can mean. Unfortunately medicine really took to the title of 'doctor' and as a result the general public in hospitals assume that any doctor must be a medical doctor. That perception needs to change. The nurse is perfectly entitled to describe herself as 'Doctor' imo, especially if it's a PhD.

Agree with nesf on this one. Educating the public about the intricacies of who's entitled to use a Doctor title is not a priority or even relevant when someone is in hospital and expecting medical treatment. What is relevant, however, is the context and professional capacity that the practitioner is working in. And if that person's role is primarily in a nursing capacity within a hospital environment, they should not call themselves Doctor.

tallaght01

IN my hospital, we have a different colour ID badge for all the different types of people. So, mine has a big "DOCTOR" written across the bottom. The nurses have "NURSE" emblazoned on theirs. It's the most obvious part of the badge, and no titles are given. Just your name. Mine says "Tallaght01, paediatrics registrar".

I think that's a great way of doing, coz half the staff have PhDs.

IN the public health dept, we just have our name, and our rank. So, it just says "epidemiologist", "Public health registrar", "public health consultant" or "public health nurse".

It's less important in public health, as we don't touch the great unwashed :P But it's like everything, the people in there are some of the most highly qualified people I've ever met, and they would rarely talk about their qualifications, as they're pretty secure in their roles.

nesf

DrIndy wrote: »

PhD and other doctorates entitle people to teach in universities - hence they are the true "Doctors" as they have attained the highest degree possible in their subject and are now entitled to teach others this knowledge.

Untrue actually, this is a phenomenon of the recent generation. In my parent's generation it wasn't at all uncommon for people with Masters or even only basic degrees to teach at universities. There's still at least one senior lecturer in UCC (though he might have retired recently) who had only a Bachelors!

imported_guy

nesf wrote: »

Untrue actually, this is a phenomenon of the recent generation. In my parent's generation it wasn't at all uncommon for people with Masters or even only basic degrees to teach at universities. There's still at least one senior lecturer in UCC (though he might have retired recently) who had only a Bachelors!

yup, until recently publications and on going research etc were alot more important than degrees, and yes there are alot of lecturers even in my college with no PHDs (its half and half), and im guessing there probably are some with just bachelors

nesf

imported_guy wrote: »

yup, until recently publications and on going research etc were alot more important than degrees, and yes there are alot of lecturers even in my college with no PHDs (its half and half), and im guessing there probably are some with just bachelors

Yeah a retired lecturer described it to me as in the old days (pre-60s) you might be able to be awarded a degree for research work if examinations were problematic for you for medical reasons (think something like bipolar making rigid exam schedules a nightmare while independent research for such a person might be perfectly feasible if they had sufficient aptitude during their times of better mental health). The idea being that if someone can produce academic research of a high enough grade to be published that a body of this work could be taken in lieu of examinations taken.