What to do if refused?

Rew

What should you do if your refused a licence? As of midnight Saturday you have a firearm and ammunition your not entitled to hold should they be lodged with the Gardai or a firearms dealer? I'm told dealers are charging for holding them.

Jonty

Rew wrote: »

What should you do if your refused a licence? As of midnight Saturday you have a firearm and ammunition your not entitled to hold should they be lodged with the Gardai or a firearms dealer? I'm told dealers are charging for holding them.

have you gotten the refusal in writing?

restaurants

Rew wrote: »

What should you do if your refused a licence? As of midnight Saturday you have a firearm and ammunition your not entitled to hold should they be lodged with the Gardai or a firearms dealer? I'm told dealers are charging for holding them.

Check with your local Garda station. At least then you know what is expected of you.

jwshooter

there will be over 20,000 of them . there not getting mine in the middle of the season

G17

Rew wrote: »

What should you do if your refused a licence? As of midnight Saturday you have a firearm and ammunition your not entitled to hold should they be lodged with the Gardai or a firearms dealer? I'm told dealers are charging for holding them.

Section 36 of the Criminal Justice Act, 2006 has amended section 6 of the 1925 Act and legislates for a person who is in possession of a firearm or ammunition having had the certificate for that firearm or ammunition revoked. In this situation the following procedures shall apply:
(1) that person shall forthwith deliver the firearm or ammunition to the superintendent of the district where the person resides,
(2) the superintendent shall inform the person in writing of his/her right to dispose of the firearm in any manner not contrary to law.
(3) if, within 3 months, arrangements have not been carried out for its disposal by the person, the superintendent will inform the person in writing that the firearm will be sold or destroyed within a further period of 1 month. The proceeds will be paid to the person.
(4) the superintendent may cause the firearm to be destroyed if the firearm has been offered for sale and not sold, or if of the view that it is unlikely to be sold and shall inform the person in writing of such destruction



But there are a lot of worried shooters who've applied but haven't had their certs issued yet, i.e. they've not been refused. I know lads who've never missed November 1st and are terrified they'll be arrested for carrying an unlicensed firearm.

Rew

Jonty wrote: »

have you gotten the refusal in writing?

Yes

G17

Rew wrote: »

Yes

Damn.

foxhunter

Rew wrote: »

Yes

Is it for a restricted gun or not .

Grizzly 45

At the risk of starting off another long thread of critique and arguement.But isnt this somthing our organisations should be highlighting in the public and media eye of yet more incompetance of the Govt??

Rew

foxhunter wrote: »

Is it for a restricted gun or not .

Restricted...

Rew

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

At the risk of starting off another long thread of critique and arguement.But isnt this somthing our organisations should be highlighting in the public and media eye of yet more incompetance of the Govt??

Bit late for them to start doing anything to help us now

Sparks

If the super demands you hand it in, you've no real choice Rew. However, he's not entitled to destroy it - it's still your property. Most of the time that this has happened in the past, however, the super has been happy enough to have it handed into a firearms dealer (as that's where it'd end up most of the time anyway, since most stations do not have secure storage).

At any rate, your next step is to contact your FCP body (which is most likely your NGB) and see if the FPU can have a word and find a quiet solution - if not, it's time to consider whether you want to hit the courts or not

(If you do decide to go down that road, btw, it's probably best if you don't post too much on it here until it's done and dusted. I mean, I'd love to watch your progress, but I think posting your legal strategy on here ahead of time would be a pretty daft thing to do).



jw, if they ask for it and you say no, let us know here would you? It's always great craic to see the ERU being deployed on the six-one news :rolleyes:

Rew

I'm sure they would be delighted for someone to pay a dealer for housing it! Any and all routes still to be explored but I think its very poor of the Gardai/DoJ not have have the information of what to do with the firearms and ammo available.

sako75 hunter

dont no if you have recieved a letter from your super stating that he has recieved your application for your firearm renewal but if you have this will do you until you recieve your new licences, i phoned the firearms officer in thurles last week and thats what i was told. my extension is up saturday too but he said to me that i will get a letter before january stating were to collect my licences (being issused at the post offices now and not local gargai stations anymore). There goning to cost 80 euro each regardless weather it is a shotgun or rifle(3 years). Thats all i no so far so i hoped ive helped in some way.

rowa

Sparks wrote: »

If the super demands you hand it in, you've no real choice Rew. However, he's not entitled to destroy it - it's still your property. Most of the time that this has happened in the past, however, the super has been happy enough to have it handed into a firearms dealer (as that's where it'd end up most of the time anyway, since most stations do not have secure storage).

At any rate, your next step is to contact your FCP body (which is most likely your NGB) and see if the FPU can have a word and find a quiet solution - if not, it's time to consider whether you want to hit the courts or not

(If you do decide to go down that road, btw, it's probably best if you don't post too much on it here until it's done and dusted. I mean, I'd love to watch your progress, but I think posting your legal strategy on here ahead of time would be a pretty daft thing to do).



jw, if they ask for it and you say no, let us know here would you? It's always great craic to see the ERU being deployed on the six-one news :rolleyes:

if you hand it in to the gardai you have to sign a waiver giving up your ownership of the firearm , they can do what they like after that with it .

Bananaman

Jonty wrote: »

have you gotten the refusal in writing?

And are you sure it is refusal - as in

'I refuse to license this because ......'

and not a

'I am not satisfied that .......'

There is a distinction, as if you can, in fact, satisfy them of ....., then they must revisit the application.

As people have said speak to your club and/or the NGB relevant to the firearm type in question to see if there is a solution to your issue before going off on your own into the sunset.

B'Man

Sparks

rowa wrote: »

if you hand it in to the gardai you have to sign a waiver giving up your ownership of the firearm , they can do what they like after that with it .

That's if you hand it in voluntarily for destruction - not if you're ordered to surrender it. That's why the firearms handed in in 1972 had to be kept in storage for so long - their ownership status didn't change.

Jonty

best of luck with this one rew

Rew

Jonty wrote: »

best of luck with this one rew

Cheers.

Its a "Im not satisfied" letter but my main concern is 00:00 01/11/09 having something in the house that could land me in hot water.

rrpc

What do do indeed

meathshooter

Rew wrote: »

Cheers.

Its a "Im not satisfied" letter but my main concern is 00:00 01/11/09 having something in the house that could land me in hot water.

rang district office today and spoke to the garda that was imputing the data for the new licences told him of my concerns of not having a valid cert after saturday and that I would be out shooting on the first he told me that they had problems with the new system and leeway would be giving to shooters who havnt got there new certs and whos extensions where up and that all the garda in his district have been made aware of this

jwshooter

Sparks wrote: »

If the super demands you hand it in, you've no real choice Rew. However, he's not entitled to destroy it - it's still your property. Most of the time that this has happened in the past, however, the super has been happy enough to have it handed into a firearms dealer (as that's where it'd end up most of the time anyway, since most stations do not have secure storage).

At any rate, your next step is to contact your FCP body (which is most likely your NGB) and see if the FPU can have a word and find a quiet solution - if not, it's time to consider whether you want to hit the courts or not

(If you do decide to go down that road, btw, it's probably best if you don't post too much on it here until it's done and dusted. I mean, I'd love to watch your progress, but I think posting your legal strategy on here ahead of time would be a pretty daft thing to do).



jw, if they ask for it and you say no, let us know here would you? It's always great craic to see the ERU being deployed on the six-one news :rolleyes:

once you hand in your applications and not been refused is your extension not automatically covering this.
a asked my Sargent about this today, he was unsure .

im going to belt away . i never said i would say no.

any its one major cluster****

johngalway

I agree with JW :eek:



I haven't done anything wrong and I'm not going to pause my shooting because a bunch of over paid civil servants couldn't get a simple system set up in ANY working way properly.

People who have licenses now won't agree with me most likely, but, a lot of us neither have grant letters nor extension letters mostly because the information we needed to fully and honestly fill out the forms wasn't available in good time.

Cluster**** is correct.

Sparks

jwshooter wrote: »

once you hand in your applications and not been refused is your extension not automatically covering this.

No, it's not. The extension is an extension of your old licence and come hell or high water, it expires the day it says it expires. Whether you've applied or not is immaterial to that.

a asked my Sargent about this today, he was unsure .

Well, you should be fine so.
Unless, you know, there's any other person in the country with the powers of arrest.

im going to belt away . i never said i would say no.

Like I said, just let us know when to watch the six-one news because the ERU are always fun to watch.

rowa

i am in the same boat sparks , whats the thing to do then ? i have a centrefire pistol with no licence and the extension up on the first , i am not setting foot out to the range with it until something is done said , i have been told already by the local f/o that there is a chance of the eru turning up at the door to seize it !

the firearms dealer won't take them in either , its a right mess .

Sparks

johngalway wrote: »

I haven't done anything wrong and I'm not going to pause my shooting because a bunch of over paid civil servants couldn't get a simple system set up in ANY working way properly.

If things go the way I think they're going to go (though I wouldn't mind the pleasant surprise of being wrong), I'm not going to get my licence in time to go to Kuortane and train with lads who've got a small collection of olympic medals at home. That's me out a few hundred euro in deposit fees, and another shooter who's put in a load of logistical work after having his time wasted. And part of it is my fault for letting work eat so much time and part of it is down to the licencing procedure not being a well-oiled machine.

But regardless, come 1/11/09, my firearms are unlicenced (unless the new licence comes in by tomorrow ) and so in the safe in the firearms dealer they have to stay. Otherwise, if I'm stopped, that's possession of an unlicenced firearm and not only is there fines and possible jail time, but there's also the risk of losing the firearms for five years after that.

Not worth it. Even if the teething pains of the new system are a pain in the toucas. And even if we said it was a bad idea to push this through this year.

Sparks

rowa wrote: »

i am in the same boat sparks , whats the thing to do then ? i have a centrefire pistol with no licence and the extension up on the first , i am not setting foot out to the range with it until something is done said , i have been told already by the local f/o that there is a chance of the eru turning up at the door to seize it !
the firearms dealer won't take them in either , its a right mess .

I think in your boat my first phone call would be to the super to ask what he thinks. Unless you've got one of the handful of supers who just see all this as yet another dose of itching powder in the shorts, he should have some sort of reasonable suggestion, or might be willing to accept one. Either way, the ERU is not the first phone call they'll make unless they've got budget to burn!

Mr Mole

Perhaps its another one for our Associations and Governing bodies to bring forth to the FPU and FCP for us.

Looking at it from another perspective, its only a minority here on Boards.ie that are vocal and concerned over the catastrophic and poorly planned system (sic) that has been levied upon us. Should we worry at all? Having a firearm in your safe at home is "possession". Can anyone realistically imagine a prosecution for this offence in current circumstances?

Why not treat it as was under the old system. Can everyone honestly say that they had their firearms certificate renewed exactly on the due date, and did the Garda Síochána prosecute them? I remember still chasing up some people well into September.

Maybe we should just relax like the majority are, the approx 100,000 previous licence holders that aren't on Boards. After all, there are a possible 240,000 certificates to be processed.;)

I also had plans to shoot abroad in November. I will be asking the Chief to further extend my extension letter so as my Europass will be validated by a domestic licence.

Sparks

Mr Mole wrote: »

Can anyone realistically imagine a prosecution for this offence in current circumstances?

Can anyone realistically imagine the state banning an internationally recognised sport that we're ranking in the top ten in?
I've given up on the notion of common sense being common at this stage

Why not treat it as was under the old system. Can everyone honestly say that they had their firearms certificate renewed exactly on the due date

Er, well, yes. But I'm a bit of a nerd. With the exception of the initial application (which fell prey to poor instruction-following from Anschutz who thought "don't send" was the same as "post away" combined with the original application forms being lost by the Gardai) and this time round, I tended to treat the renewals as end-of-the-world events

I also had plans to shoot abroad in November. I will be asking the Chief to further extend my extension letter so as my Europass will be validated by a domestic licence.

I asked - it can't be done. The extensions can't legally be extended, there's no mechanism to do that.

Cass

Sparks wrote: »

I asked - it can't be done. The extensions can't legally be extended, there's no mechanism to do that.

+1. Have been on the phone all day ringing FCP members, Gardai, friends, family, priests, exorcist , trying to get some word on my pistol license ( still have not received receipt letter even though all other licenses are granted). Anyway the moral of the story, no extensions of extensions are or will be done. So after Saturday night i'm fluxxed.

rrpc

ezridax wrote: »

+1. Have been on the phone all day ringing FCP members, Gardai, friends, family, priests, exorcist , trying to get some word on my pistol license ( still have not received receipt letter even though all other licenses are granted). Anyway the moral of the story, no extensions of extensions are or will be done. So after Saturday night i'm fluxxed.

It's going to be like one of those Stalinist purges :eek:. The tanks, land rovers and army trucks will roll out in the dead of night. Doors will be kicked in and they will drag us screaming from our beds.

Some of us will be tipped off by friends in the Army ranger wing and sneak surrepetitiously across the border into Newry.

Meanwhile on the six-one news, the ERU surround jwshooters house as he yells Charlton Hestonesque sentiments from an upstairs window.

On Monday morning, the virtual tumbleweed will blow across shooting.boards.ie

Sort of a Halloween scary story really

Grizzly 45

Guess the ERU will be busy then Nov1st.;):rolleyes:.

Grizzly 45

Some of us will be tipped off by friends in the Army ranger wing and sneak surrepetitiously across the border into Newry.
[/QUOTE]

So will that give Tom Clonan and Ciara Shanley another excuse to give us another hour of Clonan wizzing around in a landrover and weird camera angles of Shanley,on their new "what if" documentary.
" When gunowners from Boards.ie invaded!!":eek::eek::eek::D

Cass

Halloween and November 1st. 2 days of fireworks. Great

rrpc

I think Rew expressed it best:

"What do do if refused"

Says it all really. There'll be some do do hitting the fan alright

jwshooter

Sparks wrote: »

If things go the way I think they're going to go (though I wouldn't mind the pleasant surprise of being wrong), I'm not going to get my licence in time to go to Kuortane and train with lads who've got a small collection of olympic medals at home. That's me out a few hundred euro in deposit fees, and another shooter who's put in a load of logistical work after having his time wasted. And part of it is my fault for letting work eat so much time and part of it is down to the licencing procedure not being a well-oiled machine.

But regardless, come 1/11/09, my firearms are unlicenced (unless the new licence comes in by tomorrow ) and so in the safe in the firearms dealer they have to stay. Otherwise, if I'm stopped, that's possession of an unlicenced firearm and not only is there fines and possible jail time, but there's also the risk of losing the firearms for five years after that.

Not worth it. Even if the teething pains of the new system are a pain in the toucas. And even if we said it was a bad idea to push this through this year.

sparks , i just got a phone call from some in the know there is extensions on the extensions been given in dublin .

dont panic just yet .

rowa

ezridax wrote: »

Halloween and November 1st. 2 days of fireworks. Great

at least the neighbours won't be disturbed when the eru pop a cap in your ass , they'll think its just another scanger after blowing the front off an old persons house !

Rew

rrpc wrote: »

I think Rew expressed it best:

"What do do if refused"

Says it all really. There'll be some do do hitting the fan alright

Im a poet and I didn't know it!

BornToKill

Rew wrote: »

Im a poet and I didn't know it!

Yes, you surely are.

Meyer

jwshooter wrote: »

sparks , i just got a phone call from some in the know there is extensions on the extensions been given in dublin .

dont panic just yet .

Called my Super today and was told the same thing...After expressing my annoyance about the whole situation, he said "Dublin has grand ideas, but as always the reality on the ground is another thing." At least he was honest

rowa

Meyer wrote: »

Called my Super today and was told the same thing...After expressing my annoyance about the whole situation, he said "Dublin has grand ideas, but as always the reality on the ground is another thing." At least he was honest

it wasn't dublin that had the great idea but ahern , its up there with e-voting as ideas go. :rolleyes:

Bananaman

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwLB2Vei6tE

johngalway

rowa wrote: »

it wasn't dublin that had the great idea but ahern , its up there with e-voting as ideas go. :rolleyes:

In fairness to E-Voting, at least that system dispatched it's victims instantly, rather than this drawn out saga.

Sparks

Well, the thing with the e-voting was that you could never be sure of exactly how the decision got made, so I guess that makes it a fair enough analogy

johngalway

Sparks wrote: »

Well, the thing with the e-voting was that you could never be sure of exactly how the decision got made, so I guess that makes it a fair enough analogy

Yeah, but it made a decision

2.5 hours to go now, all aboard the ERU bus off to porridge, will send ye lucky few a postcard

DMZ

I am sure that I am not alone out there, a Garda car was despatched to my house and everyone in the district that had made application for renewal of their restricted pistols.

All having completed expensive alarm upgrades, with GSM dialers, double the monitoring cost contracted for a year and all paid for up front! Cost me €1,800.00. Conformance with the storage requirements tick box, send off application and then receive refusal on the grounds that the Super has the power under section 3 of the firearms acts 1925 as amended to refuse you on the grounds of not having sufficient reason, funny thing is I seemed to have good reason every year since 2004 for having my pistol certificates renewed! What has changed nothing other than the Gardai imposing an view of the legislation which I think is flawed!

Having looked at the legislation, it is the Garda Commissioners guidelines that is leading everyone to believe that they have to apply afresh for guns they have had for years, my simple reading of the act as amended would lead me to believe that the chief super should be evaluating my application as an application for renewal under section 9 and not Section 3, now before anyone gets up and says well the commissioner says....... the guidelines also state that they are not the legislation.

So I have decided to send the following letter to my Chief Super, really I want to get the challenge right in the District Court, incidently where every little scumbag and press reporter will know that John Doe has a pistol, high power hunting rifle, 2 x shotguns and live in x drive, etc........ a great prospect, no doubt my monitored alarm will get some exercise but I wonder will the boys in blue come to my aid or be too busy delivering Dear John letters to firearms holders........ I will also be seeking legal opinion on my view of the legislation but I don't think I am too far off!

Name

Address 1
Address 2
Co x
DatabaseID=DatabaseID|ContactID=ContactID|


Name Chief Super
Chief Superintendent of An Gárda Síochána
Chief Superintendents Office
Address 1
Co X
Sunday, November 01, 2009

Dear Chief Superintendent X

I am in receipt of your hand delivered communications of xxth October 2009, in which you have indicated your refusal of my application for restricted firearms, being xxx 9mm and xxx .357/.38 target pistols/rifle, Ref: xxxx and xxxx respectively.

You refer your decision to Section 3 of the Firearms Acts 1925 as amended.

Section 3 is exclusively for application for new firearms certificates, if you refer to Section 9 of Firearms Act 1964 you will note that it was amended in the Criminal Justice Act 2006 by the substitution of a new section “Renewal of Firearms Certificates”

As my firearms certificates were already in force they come under Section 9 as amended for consideration and not Section 3 as you have indicated in your communication.


I would respectfully request that you reconsider your decision with reference to the correct section of the act when dealing with the application for renewal of my firearms certificates.

It is my understanding that there as there is a clear misunderstanding of the firearms legislation by your office, I would expect that it is not unreasonable for you to extend my current firearms certificates while the matter is considered and rectified.

Should you require any further information please do not hesitate to contact me.

Yours Sincerely



Name

rrpc

I think you may have a point there DMZ. However, it's probably an exercise in semantics as it's within his powers to refuse to renew it under subsection (5).

So if I were you, I'd expect a revised letter.

I'd also point out freddieot's warning to be not giving away your strategies in advance

BornToKill

I don't think so. Just don't see it myself. Section 3(9) reads:

A decision on an application for a firearm certificate or its renewal shall be given within 3 months from the date on which the applicant submitted a completed application form.

There is an argument that since there never previously existed a restricted firearms certificate one cannot renew something which was never held. That argument though doesn't seem to matter here since Section 3 of the principal act is clear that a refusal may apply to either an application or a renewal.

DMZ

BornToKill wrote: »

I don't think so. Just don't see it myself. Section 3(9) reads:

A decision on an application for a firearm certificate or its renewal shall be given within 3 months from the date on which the applicant submitted a completed application form.

There is an argument that since there never previously existed a restricted firearms certificate one cannot renew something which was never held. That argument though doesn't seem to matter here since Section 3 of the principal act is clear that a refusal may apply to either an application or a renewal.

We will see what the wigs have got to say, I have no issue with the opposition knowing the direction we are coming from, my belief is that there is a much weaker case for a Chief Super to refuse a renewal than a new application. The bull about a .22 being a suitable substitute as agreed with the Olympic Council and the National Target Shooters Association is what really gets me, if a ,22 would have done I would have one already as it is less expensive and a lot less hassle.

Clearly I would like to know how the OCI got the remit to agree lists of guns that I may lisence, the NTSA is a given they are on record already.

In any case we will see, all will be revealed in less than 30 days and I would feel more comfortable defending a situation where my renewal was refused for a firearm that I have had since 1995 all be it in other jusisdictions and has been lisenced since 2004 here. Thats what it boils down to one had a reason prior to application for the previous 5 renewals and now no reason..

I am also disappointed to see the ignorance of the Chief super indicating that in his opinion a S&W revolver is a military Combat-Style Firearm, is he for real, the only record of a revolver used in the military is the one Patton carried.

Ah lets stop ranting anger is rising!