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N13/N15 - Ballybofey/Stranorlar bypass [preferred route published; design underway]

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Comments

  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 66,471 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The DC status is due to the "atlantic economic corridor" plan, rather than traffic levels. Intent is to have a DC from Letterkenny to Sligo regardless of whether current traffic levels require it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,309 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Ballybofey-Stranorlar is part of a nationally-important route corridor, connecting Derry and Letterkenny with Sligo and, from there, the westen half of the country. As such, despite the local AADT figures of under 8,000 (south of Ballybofey), having a consistent standard of road along the longer route corridor justifies a build as 2+2.

    Also, the traffic counter data for the N15 here shows a very high proportion of HGV traffic (around 8%), which gives another push to proving a segregated road type, in order to provide safe overtaking.

    Remember, 2+2 is only 10~15% more expensive than a properly engineered new-build Type 1 Single-carriageway road. Based on recent projects, it is clear that Type 1 SC is only considered now for routes that are unlikely to exceed 10,000 AADT (new-build type 1 SC has a design capacity of 13,500 AADT; 2+2 is 22,000). None of the three N13/N15 schemes fall into this bracket, as they’re currently at 7-11,000 AADT



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    I didn't bemoan anything, what I said was "I can't see how a case can be made for spending €150m-€180m bypassing Ballybofey/Stranorlar". The cost now appears to be even higher. I think it will strugglebig time to get past the PSC.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Ah come on, the 90km between Sligo and Ballybofey will not be DC for a long long time, if ever. Traffic levels aren't there and the terrain is rough, the cost would be enormous. Each project has to justify itself, talk about vague hopes of replicating standards of another project which isn't even on the radar for the next 20 years isn't going to make a difference when it comes to the PSC.

    The Moycullen bypass is currently being built as SC despite traffic volumes higher than that.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 45,672 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    As 2 towns will be bypassed the appropriate funding would be more than value for money. A bit like a BOGOF 😎



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,873 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    I think all chance of an "Atlantic Corridor that specifies that dual carriageways need to be built regardless of traffic" was kyboshed as soon as the Greens got into power.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    No, it was a long time before that (although that won't stop posters here from linking everything they don't like to the GP). The PSC was brought in to preventlarge capital expenditure based on grand notions despite there being no justifiable business case, that has nothing to do with the GP.



  • Registered Users Posts: 34 FreedomOfSpeechAndChoice


    Something you want to say straight to me, fella?

    It must be nice to be able to afford to vote green.


    But for the rest of us mere mortals, we like to see our tax money spent on what was actually promised.


    And what we pay EXTORTIONATE road tax for.


    Next time you feel like having a go at me, say it to me straight.


    You're a big boy, aren't you?


    (Are you...?)



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,672 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    There's no such thing as road tax. You pay a motor tax based either on the size of your cars engine or its emissions. The tax money goes into the general taxation pot and is not ring fenced for roads (or anything else).



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  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭steeler j




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,309 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Ah come on, the 90km between Sligo and Ballybofey will not be DC for a long long time, if ever. Traffic levels aren't there and the terrain is rough, the cost would be enormous. Each project has to justify itself, talk about vague hopes of replicating standards of another project which isn't even on the radar for the next 20 years isn't going to make a difference when it comes to the PSC.

    The Moycullen bypass is currently being built as SC despite traffic volumes higher than that.



    When the 90km of N15 between Sligo and Ballybofey is upgraded, those upgrades will most likely be 2+2 as well. There's already a clear pattern of bumping upgrades on national primary roads to 2+2, and the only exceptions have been stretches with extremely low traffic figures (<5000 AADT).

    What's being done on Moycullen bypass is irrelevant, as that is part of the secondary road network, and the criteria for secondary routes are different. Also, the HGV share on N13/N15 is pretty high, at around 7%, and that adds more weight to the justification for a dual carriageway. The choice of dual carriageway over single isn’t made so that car-drivers can go faster, it’s to allow heavy goods traffic to safely coexist with passenger cars.



  • Registered Users Posts: 48 cartoncowboy


    The Bundoran/Ballyshannon/Donegal town bypasses are a great job (I recall travelling on the old route going to college in Letterkenny years ago). Those bypasses could potentially be retrofitted to 2+2 if the will was there as they are fairly wide, but I don't see it happening tbh.

    Ballybofey/Stranorlar needs that bypass as soon as possible regardless of road type. I travel that road regularly and the towns are choking with the traffic, frequent tailbacks/delays.

    The road out of Sligo to Bundoran is the section in most in need of an upgrade. Was on the table years ago but scrapped because of the downturn and not mentioned since. High accident rate, narrow with no verges for long stretches, passing through small villages etc etc. Going off topic a bit but.

    I think when we read "Atlantic Economic Corridor", you think that they are talking about dual carriageways/motorways. But it was never defined by government so we are all left to ponder. It would be great if they could clarify.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,309 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    For roads with around 10,000 AADT, the cost difference between Wide Single carriageway and a 2+2 is not that big. To get a single carriageway to those traffic levels, you need remove minor junctions and grade separate or roundabout the rest. Once that cost is there, 2+2 is just the middle barrier and extra road width on top.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    I'd like to see where it states that policy is to build upgrades of National Primaries AADT as 2+2. The N5 scheme which should be under construction right now disproves that, with higher percentage of HGVs too (>10%). That theory also ignores the existence of the PSC which is the determining factor in whether a project can progress to tender and contract award.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,309 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    I never claimed the existence of any policy.

    I simply made an observation that recent National Primary projects have been bumped up from single carriageway to 2+2 at lower levels of traffic than some here would think deserve it. e.g., N2 from Monaghan to NI Border will be 2+2, with AADT of just 4,000 or so (lower than any of the N13/N15 stretches). The reason in that case was that N2 is part of a longer strategic corridor connecting Donegal with the rest of the Republic (and also connecting Derry and the western counties of NI with the Republic), just as N13/15 are.

    ==



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,297 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    The new greenfield road projects are incredibly well engineered and done to a very high standard (gradients, road crossings, curves, junctions) and as a result are very efficient and safe. They’re not like the 90s/00s roads with at grade junctions, accesses, steep hills etc.

    With the cost of the earthworks, bridges and junctions, it makes sense to put in a 2+2 for the improved safety and journey times vs single carriageway. The only primary project being done as SC in the present or near future is the N5 through Roscommon, which will have AADTs of 4-5k. There are numerous National secondaries with higher AADTs than that.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,297 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    The last we heard on this scheme was an update in November 2020 that this was to go to ABP in March/April 2021.


    It still hasn't been submitted and now it looks like it will be the new year before it gets sent there.


    https://highlandradio.com/2022/10/04/dcc-tells-members-ten-t-cpo-details-cant-be-published-until-next-year/



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,601 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    County council seem to be very behind schedule on numerous projects under their remit - when DCC give a date I would add 6months on to it at least



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  • Registered Users Posts: 45,672 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    You're being overly generous. 6 years would be more like it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,548 ✭✭✭SeanW


    This part is not accurate. Irelands implementation of road tax scheme is called Motor Tax, and liability for it is based firstly on whether or not a motor vehicle is on the road. (Being used in a public place I think is term)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_tax#Ireland



  • Registered Users Posts: 45,672 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    Give it a rest. Nothing to do with the Ballybofey / Stranorlar bypass



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,601 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Are Donegal coco leading the project or TII?

    Donegal council have an awful record on most infrastructure projects, any schedules they issue I would at least double in length.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,207 ✭✭✭AyeGer


    We are coming up on 7 years since the latest scheme began. Does anyone have any idea when it might be completed? It would be great for the towns and for those who drive thought that part of Donegal regularly.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,297 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    It has to go to An Bord Pleanala next (when this Gov came in it was to go to ABP in Q1 2021). That'll take 2 years going by current timelines. You'll then have 2-3 years of advance works provided no one seeks a judicial review of the project in the High Court. So I'd imagine 2028/9 start at the absolute earliest, with a 3 year build time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 45,672 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    I worked in Donegal County Council's planning office for several years way back in the mid to late 70's and they had a route reserved in those days for a bypass of the twin towns. Sparse details of same were contained in both the county development plan and the development plan for Ballybofey / Stranorlar. It wasn't much more than a line on a map to the North of the town's which isn't far off the current proposed route but lots of people were refused planning permission in the following years because of it.

    Anyhow the point of the post is to highlight the length of time it has been taking to get the project off the ground...no pun intended



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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,297 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    In June 2020 the plan was to submit to An Bord Pleanala within a year.

    This has yet to happen. I believe the business case was submitted in June 2023 so it's on his desk to take it to Cabinet for approval. September now that'll be.



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