Why so difficult to transfer from other Police Forces to AGS

gilly0512

Folks do any of you happen to know why it so difficult to transfer from other Police Forces to AGS, as no matter how many years service you have, what rank you are, if you want to join our beloved AGS from another Police Force, its down to Templemore for you for two years if you are accepted. I find this whole situation ludicrous, as surely if say you have experience from any of the UK Police forces, or other common law countries, this should be taken into account. A friend of mine is a Sergeant in Manchester married to an Irish girl who wanted to move home. Obviously he didn't want to put his policing career to waste, so he looked into the option of joining AGS, only to be met with a brick wall. The thoughts of been a student/probationer again for three years was obviously not very appealing to a man with nearly fifteen years of policing experience, so he declined their kind offer. I know that if the Australian or New Zealand Police forces are ever looking for Police officers outside of their own country they will always look to the UK or Ireland, and previous experience is taken into account, so surely this should also be the case here, as its ridiculous to expect experienced officers to start off down at the bottom again. What do you think?

deadwood

I would think this is the case in several careers. Policies, law, culture and other factors vary so widely that, even in neighbouring countries, the jobs will differ greatly. It makes perfect sence to train every member to the same standard. Of course, consideration would be given to previous experience.

Besides, he probably can't pronounce vehickkkle proper.

Jawgap

I know someone in a similar position from Canada (former RCMP) who is Irish, emigrated at about 18 and put in 12+ years and was a Staff Sgt (bit more than a sargent, but less than an inspector).

He looked to join AGS but found the regulations don't really facilitate transfers in or "conversion." He also looked at the PSNI, but wasn't too thrilled at what he found there, and eventually took a post with the Ombudsman's Commission (GSOC) - not his first choice as he prefers "proper policing" (his words) but at least it got him back to Dublin.

Trojan911

gilly2308 wrote: »

The thoughts of been a student/probationer again for three years was obviously not very appealing to a man with nearly fifteen years of policing experience, so he declined their kind offer. What do you think?

That's what stopped me joining up when I moved back from London having spent eleven years in the Met.

I spoke with an Irish Chief Super about a transfer and also another downside for me was AGS was so behind with equipment, safety and general training, simply because the country was behind with the times. I wasn't prepared to start all over again and go through it all again.

But I agree a stint, say six months, in Templemore is a must as some UK laws differ from Irish laws but as soon as that is done then the probation should finish there and the person shouldn't have to do the remainder but there dosen't appear to be a system in place for likes of your friend or myself etc.

Some lads I used to work with in London have tried the same when they moved back, but no joy for them either for similar reasons.

Jawgap

I think the idea of a "conversion" course is a good one, but once they come out from Templemore, surely there should be a period of on the job probation (6 months to a year) but on a full Garda's salary.

delta720

gilly2308 wrote: »

I know that if the Australian or New Zealand Police forces are ever looking for Police officers outside of their own country they will always look to the UK or Ireland, and previous experience is taken into account.

Thats because the officer usualy gets shoved into a job that no local officer wants to do. I know a lad who moved his whole family over to Australia only to find himself driving a police camper van kinda thing around the outback visiting wee villages to do paperwork, he has since moved back.

Why would we have a 'transfer course' in Templemore when there is so many lads trying to get in here?

gilly0512

Trojan911 wrote: »

That's what stopped me joining up when I moved back from London having spent eleven years in the Met.

Trojan911 its crazy that AGS would pass up on a man of your experience, who has worked with arguably one of the more reknowned Police forces in the world, expecting you to then start back again as a student. Obviously you were not prepared to do this, so do you mind me asking why you still gave up your Met career, had you enough, or god forbid was it a woman making you come home?

gilly0512

delta720 wrote: »

Why would we have a 'transfer course' in Templemore when there is so many lads trying to get in here?

delta720 did you not read the likes of Trojan911's reply in which he states that he would loved to have transferred from the MET into AGS? What is wrong with people from this country who have worked in Police Forces abroad, wanting to join AGS without going back to the very start again. Are you saying that only people who live here should be allowed to join AGS, maybe that is one of the reasons why AGS is such an insular Police Force. Either way Police Officers from other police forces are not afforded the opportunity in AGS to continue on with their career, unless firstly they are under 35, and secondly they are willing to go right back to the very start again, with all that entails for an experienced professional police officer.

Zambia

Re the Aus Police some forces have some shocking duties in some f**king shocking places. However in most cases you will probably fair ok. In light of AGS having a strict transfer policy. Why should they change it, is there a huge need for an intake of skilled personnel? AGS has no shortage of skilled applicants. They are at maximum personnel allowed at present.

The forces mentioned are all trying to fill holes an learn from more experienced forces.

I have been dealing with coppers here for ages and the best one by far was ex AGS, and he was not in a people carrier ferrying old dears.

Paulzx

gilly2308 wrote: »

Trojan911 its crazy that AGS would pass up on a man of your experience, who has worked with arguably one of the more reknowned Police forces in the world, expecting you to then start back again as a student. Obviously you were not prepared to do this, so do you mind me asking why you still gave up your Met career, had you enough, or god forbid was it a woman making you come home?

I presume if a member of AGS wanted to join the Met they would also have to start from scratch.
I don't understand why it should be any different for a met officer looking to come here.
The fact that Trojan with his experience regards AGS as a backward police force is irrelevant.

Zambia

Paulzx wrote: »

The fact that Trojan with his experience regards AGS as a backward police force is irrelevant.

Mate thats not what he said, he said the equipment and training was not up to date. Its amazing how personnel can succeed despite the limitations placed upon them.

Paulzx

Trojan911 wrote: »

another downside for me was AGS was so behind with equipment, safety and general training, .

Thats what he was suggesting to me when i read the quote.

I don't concur with that view by the way

Zambia

Paulzx wrote: »

Looks like thats what he was suggesting to me

I would say even AGS members would agree with some of that but for policing , inter personnel skills and being quite hardy f**kers as well you wont find much better.

Plus they actually have a sense of humour...

The best I heard was while arresting a drunk bloke in a wheelchair.

"Listen your not walking away from this one"

Hes had a bit to drink as well Gard

"I can see that sure he's legless so he is"

I digress Training and equipment is all well and good buts its the enviroment that forms the officer. Well in my opinion anyway.

Paulzx

Zambia232 wrote: »

I would say even AGS members would agree with some of that but for policing , inter personnel skills and being quite hardy f**kers as well you wont find much better.

Plus they actually have a sense of humour...

The best I heard was while arresting a drunk bloke in a wheelchair.

"Listen your not walking away from this one"

Hes had a bit to drink as well Gard

"I can see that sure he's legless so he is"

I digress Training and equipment is all well and good buts its the enviroment that forms the officer. Well in my opinion anyway.

Jaysus!! You'll have the Pc brigade on here:eek:

Zambia

Paulzx wrote: »

Jaysus!! You'll have the Pc brigade on here:eek:

Its even harder to transfer to those f**kers

Hooch

Trojan911 wrote: »

another downside for me was AGS was so behind with equipment, safety and general training

I personnally take insult to this post as im sure do most if not all members in here do. I dont feel were under trained, under equipped or un safe. For years I had only a wooden baton.....I felt safe with it. For years I have no stab vest....didnt mean I ran away from a knife. For years we have poor cars.....we still caught the gows.......

While AGS is progressing it is doing so in accordance with what we need. I.E. at present every officer does not need tazer......we may in years to come but now we can work without it.

Jawgap wrote: »

I think the idea of a "conversion" course is a good one, but once they come out from Templemore, surely there should be a period of on the job probation (6 months to a year) but on a full Garda's salary.

Why do they deserve a conversion course??? They are coming from a different country with different policing systems, legislation, weapons etc. In Ireland we have pride in a uniform force which is wholy unarmed....unlike the MET or most british police services (In fact unlike most if not all worldwide police services).

In Ireland we rely on our ability to talk a situation down....in America they rely on having a firearms on their side and a tazer on the other.

Templemore....from phases 1-5 trains a member of AGS to one of the highest standard in the world. All phases are relevant even of you have served somewhere else.

delta720 wrote: »

Why would we have a 'transfer course' in Templemore when there is so many lads trying to get in here?

So many very very qualified persons waiting to apply.....

gilly2308 wrote: »

Trojan911 its crazy that AGS would pass up on a man of your experience, who has worked with arguably one of the more reknowned Police forces in the world, expecting you to then start back again as a student. Obviously you were not prepared to do this, so do you mind me asking why you still gave up your Met career, had you enough, or god forbid was it a woman making you come home?

Arguable one of the most reknowned??? Wouldnt have though so but everyone to their own. One of the most famous but I would not say reknowned.

AGS is one of most highly respected services in the world. Police services come from all over to view the training process and many have adopted some of the AGS teaching methods.....MET and PSNI included. Most cannot fathom how we police this country with just "words and a stick"

Paulzx wrote: »

Thats what he was suggesting to me when i read the quote.

I don't concur with that view by the way

+1

Hooch

gilly2308 wrote: »

maybe that is one of the reasons why AGS is such an insular Police Force. Either way Police Officers from other police forces are not afforded the opportunity in AGS to continue on with their career, unless firstly they are under 35, and secondly they are willing to go right back to the very start again, with all that entails for an experienced professional police officer.

Insular Police service??? Detached and isolated???

Can you please explain this statement???

An experienced Police officer coming from a different country with different training and legislation........

gilly0512

nice guy always wrote: »

Insular Police service??? Detached and isolated???

Can you please explain this statement???

An experienced Police officer coming from a different country with different training and legislation........

nice guy always I admire your loyalty to AGS, but you seem to be turning this thread into some sort of a competition between AGS and other Police Forces. AGS are a fine Police force, and one we should be rightfully proud of, but I find it very hard to believe that AGS is one of the most respected services in the world, where is the proof of this? Also if the two years training that it takes to become a Garda are so respected the world over, why then have no other Police Forces adopted this training method, most Police Forces still take six months to train their members, and most Gardai that I know think that two years is way too long. After two years in Templemore you still cannot drive a Garda car, yet in six months of PSNI training you learn how to be a Police Officer, use firearms, and take a Police driving course. A lot of the training that goes on in Templemore is more akin to social workers than police officers, yes there are many fine men and women in AGS, but it does not take two years to train one. You also state that AGS is the only unarmed Police Force unlike the MET or most other Police Forces, however all UK Police Forces with the exception of the PSNI are unarmed, so not sure where you have pulled that stat from. While British Police Forces may have more armed members than AGS, at the end of the day their regulars are all unarmed, much like our own. Finally in relation to my point of AGS being an insular Police Force, I made this point in relation to the fact that AGS have always hated any kind of outside interference, been told what to do etc, and tend not to welcome outsiders. This may be changing, but like a lot of things in this country very very slowly.

Davidth88

Hi,

There are a number of posters here saying ' why have a conversion course when we have plenty of applicants '

Well , think of the wealth of experence and new thinking that having applicants who have served in other forces may bring. I think it's a good idea ( as a civvie looking inwards ). I know when new people join organisations it always brings new ideas.

Nice Guy Always, to say the AGS is wholely unarmed is not exactly true is it ? I certainyl have met AGS who have hand guns , and don't the ARU have arms ( as the name suggests )

Jawgap

Surely bringing in "outsiders" helps the force develop as it brings in other perspectives.

I think the equipment argument is valid - in certain areas AGS seems lacking when compared to other police forces / services.

Saying that, on an inter-personal level most members of AGS outshine their contemporaries in other jurisdictions, in my experience - they'remuch more conversational in their official dealings.

Jawgap

gilly2308 wrote: »

.........Also if the two years training that it takes to become a Garda are so respected the world over, why then have no other Police Forces adopted this training method, most Police Forces still take six months to train their members, and most Gardai that I know think that two years is way too long.........

I'm not criticising members of AGS in general, but I reckon the training requirement has a lot to do with the GRA. Like any other union or professional representative body a good deal of their power resides in saying who can and can't work in a particular area - that creates a powerful inertia against change and motivates them to ensure that the barriers to entry are higher -hence the longer training / qualification period.

The argument that there are a lot of "well qualified" candidates betrays a peculiarly Irish facination with qualifications - what about experience? Surely officers from other forces with a bit of life experience and mature professional development are worth bringing in without making them go all the way back to square one?

trad

I served in AGS with a former member of the Strathclyde Constabulary who is still serving with AGS. Yes he went through the old system but did his 22 weeks in Templemore and is currently a sergeant. As far as I know he was not born in Ireland and did not live here until he joined AGS. He had to learn Irish from scratch to pass the oral Irish proficiency test.

So it has been done.

He was one of the most professional people I have ever worked with.

Trojan911

gilly2308 wrote: »

Trojan911 its crazy that AGS would pass up on a man of your experience, who has worked with arguably one of the more reknowned Police forces in the world, expecting you to then start back again as a student. Obviously you were not prepared to do this, so do you mind me asking why you still gave up your Met career, had you enough, or god forbid was it a woman making you come home?

Not so much making me as it was a joint decision but you are on the right track there..

I wouldn't have objected to a stint in Templemore as UK & Irish laws do differ slightly and one has to armed with correct legislation to make it work but after that the probation should stop as the experience is already there. And I have no regrets in not joining up.

nice guy always wrote:

I personnally take insult to this post as im sure do most if not all members in here do. I dont feel were under trained, under equipped or un safe. For years I had only a wooden baton.....I felt safe with it. For years I have no stab vest....didnt mean I ran away from a knife. For years we have poor cars.....we still caught the gows.......

Again, you miss the point. Having worked & lived in London we were much better equipped to deal with public order as a foot soldier since 1997 or there abouts whereas AGS have only recently been issued proper safety equipment (although a decent radio system is still being sought).

How many threads have I read on this forum where posters are complaining about the lack of protection they have while on duty? Countless springs mind.

Some here, here,

Coming back to Ireland and speaking with a lot of AGS officers, they were saying how well equipped the Met were in comparison to themselves in terms of protection, safety and general training.

Approx three years ago a female officer told me she had to go to the North to the PSNI for training on race relations. Why the North?

But like you said above, poor cars, no stab vest. They may be acceptable working conditions to you, but it's not to a lot of frontline officers I have spoken to in person and as I've said many times in previous posts, safety is paramount. And don't take it personally...

trad wrote:

I served in AGS with a former member of the Strathclyde Constabulary who is still serving with AGS. Yes he went through the old system but did his 22 weeks in Templemore and is currently a sergeant. As far as I know he was not born in Ireland and did not live here until he joined AGS. He had to learn Irish from scratch to pass the oral Irish proficiency test.

So it has been done.

He was one of the most professional people I have ever worked with.

I have seen him on tv in the past giving road safety tips. Traffic dept if am correct?

trad

Trojan, I prefer not to identify the individual as I have not seen him post here.

Silop08

I have overall 10 years of experience with AGS including training etc. From listening to the new probationers talk about the current training in Templemore it does sound more and more like PC classes and social studies and I have to ask what benefit is this to a police force. Teaching a man or a woman to become a police officer is nearly universal. If another officer from another police force wants to join AGS I believe they should undergo some form of escalated training program. if a member wants to join the PSNI he undergoes an escalated form of training and what ever courses he or she has done in AGS can be acknowledged by the PSNI. Yet not so in AGS. These people are bringing in wide range of skills and experience to us and this can only help to improve AGS.

I am proud of AGS and the uniform. I am well aware of AGS short comings and of its proud traditions. Our standard of personal equipment has improved drastically in the last 4yrs and we have come on leaps and bounds. In some areas we are lagging behind but we make up for it in others. I believe in the current clim with a recruitment embargo that if a course where run once a year for officers wanting to "transfer from another force into AGS then it should be done.

FGR

I do feel that AGS is well behind other countries when it comes to equipment (slow network, availability of pulse terminals), manpower and training.

Almost four years and not even the most basic of courses has come my way.

As for the college it feels like you're in school. It doesn't feel like you're training to become a police officer; more like a Social Worker.

Don't get me wrong. I'm proud to be in the force..but why not let the training emulate that? The older system sounded far more practical.

A review of training was carried out last year. Apparantly there were lots of changes recommended such as a complete changing in the phases and when powers are given.

I'm expecting this to be introduced once recruitment begins again.

gilly0512

Jawgap wrote: »

Saying that, on an inter-personal level most members of AGS outshine their contemporaries in other jurisdictions, in my experience - they'remuch more conversational in their official dealings.

I think that is a very valid point, as whatever about any shortcomings AGS may have as a Police Force, it is easily one of the most approachable Police Forces in the business. Most other Police Forces are extremely aggressive (particularly in the States), and are there purely to uphold the law with zero tolerance should you commit any kind of misdemeanour. Here the Gardai will talk to you and probably do their best not to arrest you for minor offences, while in the States you would be thrown to the ground at gunpoint with five or six very large cops on top of you shouting as loud as they can, before they drag you off like you had just committted first degree murder.

parsi

ForegoneReality wrote: »

As for the college it feels like you're in school. It doesn't feel like you're training to become a police officer; more like a Social Worker.

Doesn't that reflect the generally more non-confrontational attitude that prevails over here ?

When you don't have a gun there's a greater need to defuse a situation rather than just relying on having more guns than the other fella...

ScubaDave

gilly2308 wrote: »

After two years in Templemore you still cannot drive a Garda car, yet in six months of PSNI training you learn how to be a Police Officer, use firearms, and take a Police driving course.

WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!

In the PSNI training program, after your initial 22 weeks training you do several weeks on station. Then you return to the college to do your Combined Operational Training (C.O.T.) training. In this, yes, it covers firearms, driving, first aid, public order etc. BUT, this is an addtional 16 weeks of training! NOT, in the initial six months!

Shield

ScubaDave wrote: »

In the PSNI training program, after your initial 22 weeks training you do several weeks on station. Then you return to the college to do your Combined Operational Training (C.O.T.) training. In this, yes, it covers firearms, driving, first aid, public order etc. BUT, this is an addtional 16 weeks of training! NOT, in the initial six months!

Erm.. you might want to check your sources on this, because it's completely untrue. If it was true, you're saying a Constable goes to a station without his firearm (having not received the required training)?

ScubaDave

psni wrote: »

Erm.. you might want to check your sources on this, because it's completely untrue. If it was true, you're saying a Constable goes to a station without his firearm (having not received the required training)?

Well ill acknowledge what your saying because you know your stuff, BUT, i was informed of this by a working constable who has gone through the training program within the last 18 months. The several weeks on station, are purely administrative! NO outside work! This formed the basis of my dissertation so im not saying it blindly!

Shield

Sending you a PM about this.

Preset No.3

NOT being a member of AGS, I want to add or ask a couple of things.

So far this year I have seen a number of reports of upwards of 1000 members retiring, dismissals, new careers etc. It said that a lot of senior detectives and inspectors were leaving at an alarming rate and there was nobody to replace their experience. Did I read in a newspaper this week that something like 45% of the force had less than 5 years experience?

If and when the hiring embargo is lifted, would AGS not be very lucky to gain experienced officers from the likes of the MET, Oz, or even the US? Crime is crime the world over, but a lack of experience by younger officers will only delay the investigative process further. Why is senior garda management insistent on burying their heads in the sand and not admitting they have a problem?

Also, this being my own personal point, its not meant to have a go and start a row. BUT, I find some AGS members lack inter personal skills when dealing with the public. We are not all scumbags, and should be treated as such. Any dealings that I have ever had with foreign police forces, ESPECIALLY americans have always been courteous and respectful.

I think the AGS could learn a lot from foreign policing methods.

Alpha Golf

ScubaDave wrote: »

WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!

In the PSNI training program, after your initial 22 weeks training you do several weeks on station. Then you return to the college to do your Combined Operational Training (C.O.T.) training. In this, yes, it covers firearms, driving, first aid, public order etc. BUT, this is an addtional 16 weeks of training! NOT, in the initial six months!

Actually Scuba your "WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!"

after the initial 22 weeks training in GV PSNI officers receive a 10 week period of further training which includes firearms training and if they pass firearms first time its only then that they receive driving training otherwise they miss their chance of the driving course and get it at a later time after they have gone to their station.

dontgetonutube

ScubaDave wrote: »

Well ill acknowledge what your saying because you know your stuff, BUT, i was informed of this by a working constable who has gone through the training program within the last 18 months. The several weeks on station, are purely administrative! NO outside work! This formed the basis of my dissertation so im not saying it blindly!

Sounds like your working Constable was not able to progress with everyone else. This sometimes happens due to injury or failing something along the way.

However, during the 2 year probation, there are three brief spells spent being tested and getting some further training. These are at various intervals after commencing in Station.

dontgetonutube

I have no doubt that there are Members in AGS who would welcome the opportunity to transfer to other Forces either for personal or career reasons, and do take this option. By not encouraging others to transfer into AGS (by recognising service, pensions etc), that experience and training is being lost without being replaced.

A conversion course of some description would obviously be necessary to cover legislation and procedure but the obsession with Human Rights, PC World and training Social Workers has become the standard in UK Services too so perhaps we could skip that bit!!!