The Tipperary Venue: major plans for sport & culture complex off M8 Junction 5

Amtmann

E460m'Tipperary Venue' Unveiled


Published Date: 29 October 2009
By Freelance


By Eoin Kelleher
PLANS to build Europe's largest combined sporting, leisure and gaming complex off the M8 motorway at Two-Mile-Borris were unveiled in the Horse and Jockey Hotel on Tuesday.

If completed, the 'Tipperary Venue' would put the Premier County at the forefront of major national sporting, cultural and music events while providing much needed jobs in an area especially hit by the construction downturn.

Thurles native Richard Quirke, best known as the driving force behind Dr Quirkey's Good Time Emporium in Dublin, is to finance the E460m project with a group of investors.

The state-of-the art development is expected to create up to 2,000 full time jobs, with 1,000 people being employed during the three years of construction.

Announcing the development, Local Independent TD Michael Lowry and chief Architect Brian O'Connell said the project was the largest ever to be put before North Tipperary County Council. A special team has been assembled by the Council to examine the proposals and a decision is expected by Christmas. No local opposition has emerged during the consultation process so far, added Deputy Lowry, while the race track and stable facilities were especially welcomed by legendary horse trainer, Aidan O'Brien, champion jockey Johnny Murtagh, and Christy Grassick of Coolmore Studs. (See pg 6 for reaction).

The developers and Horse Racing Ireland say they are "very conscious of the history and tradition of racing at Thurles Racecourse under the management of the Molony family. Discussions have taken place with the Molony family and an understanding has been reached on a transition process." It's understood that Thurles Racecourse will close upon the successful opening of the new track at Two-Mile-Borris.

The Tipperary Venue is the most ambitious project of its kind in the country, and if completed, will include a replica White House, an arena to outshine Dublin's O2, along with high-tech racing grounds, stadium, stables, casino and heliport. The Venue's racecourse will include a national hunt track, a 7-furlong sprint track and an all-weather flood-lit track. This is combined with a greyhound track, with a dual stadium incorporating a capacity for 7,000 patrons.

Continued Page 6

The facility will have 6,000 car spaces, with an overflow capacity of 2,000 spaces for special occasions. Organisers say the rural setting's proximity to the M8 was crucial to their decision to locate in Tipperary.

An exact replica of the White House as it stood in 1829 will form the centrepiece of the project, aimed at highlighting Ireland's US links. It will be known as 'The Hoban Memorial' in homage to local man James Hoban who designed the original Pennsylvania Avenue building as a banqueting hall. The plans have the backing of The White House Historical Association in Washington.

A major casino aimed at American high-rollers will also be incorporated in a 500-room, five-star Hotel.

The casino's operation will depend on gaming legislation now being considered by government. Deputy Lowry said he was confident Ireland's casino laws would be updated in time to allow for the its opening. "The Government has initiated a complete policy review and a redrafting of the current legislation on Gaming in Ireland. It is expected that details of new proposals will be revealed in the near future."

In addition, a 15,000-seater underground entertainment venue with a retractable roof, will surpass Dublin's O2 Arena in design and capacity, say the developers. The Tipperary Venue will also include: high end retail outlets, 18-hole signature golf course, a driving range, equestrian centre, a timber chapel, and helicopter facilities. Many of the buildings will be powered by alternative energy, covered in grass and landscaped into the surrounding environment in tune with Ireland's celtic traditions, said Mr O'Connell. A separate application is to be lodged in relation to windfarm nearby.

Businessman Richard Quirke said that he was delighted with the positive response to this project, and greatly appreciates the cooperation he has received from the Government, State Agencies and Public Bodies and in particular the administration at North Tipperary County Council. Mr Quirke thanked the local community for their assistance and support and Michael Lowry TD for his guidance. Mr Quirke said he was determined to bring this venture to successful fruition.

http://www.tipperarystar.ie/news/E460m39Tipperary-Venue39-Unveiled.5773405.jp?articlepage=1

TRAINER Aidan O'Brien believes that a proposed €50m racecourse for North Tipperary could become a Breeders' Cup facility.

Plans for the new state-of-the-art racecourse were officially unveiled yesterday and planning permission will be submitted this morning.

The racecourse, located on an 800-acre site close to the village of Two-Mile Borris, is part of a proposed €460m cultural, sporting and leisure development.

The Tipperary Venue is the brainchild of Dublin-based businessman Richard Quirke, best known as the creative force behind Dr Quirkey's Good Time Emporium (amusement arcade) on Dublin's O'Connell Street.

The new racecourse will feature a National Hunt track, a sprint track and an all-weather floodlit track and has received support from Horse Racing Ireland.

O'Brien described the concept as "mind-blowing" and insisted: "This could be a Breeders' Cup facility."

However, the completion of the new track in three years will signal the end of Thurles racecourse, which has been run by the Molony family for over a century.

Local TD Michael Lowry explained that the Molony family do not have the resources to further develop Thurles racecourse and that HRI are anxious to see an all-weather track built in Munster. Quirke also stated the Molony family will be compensated.

An excited O'Brien said: "This is mind-blowing for the whole exchequer and the economy.

"One market in the world that hasn't been tapped into is the high-rolling people who fly from country to country.

"If they come into this country, everyone will benefit. This is a facility that's not waiting on funding from anybody else; Richard has it all there. It's amazing."

Quirke has had interest from a number of potential overseas developers and will consider the prospect of naming rights for the new race track, which is combined with a Greyhound track.

O'Brien's stable jockey Johnny Murtagh added: "We have the best horse in the world, best two-year-old this year, best trainers, jockeys, owners. We'll now have the best race track.

"It will be great for Ireland and down this side of the country, we need a premier Grade One track for hurdles, chases and of course, all-weather."

http://www.independent.ie/sport/horse-racing/obrien-lauds-mindblowing-plans-for-836450m-tipp-course-1925894.html

Looks like they'll have to go tinkering with junction 5 of the M8 eventually as well IF this thing ever goes ahead.

Judgement Day

This whole project sounds like a load of cock and bull and reminds me of a certain railway nutter in NI who regular gets yards of column space in the papers up there for his grandeoise schemes. One of these involved regauging the NI rail network to the British standard gauge - this project was to cost hundreds of millions and continues to rear its head on slow news days. Paper never refused ink.

spadder

It seems like a project from the celtic tiger era, if he can get the backing, I think it would be great for the midlands.

Amtmann

Paper never did refuse ink, but this has the backing of some seriously wealthy and influential locally-based individuals in the real world. While I am very sceptical about the scale of the proposal, I think there's certainly a niche to be filled there.

First, the location is very good: it's just off the M8, and very close to Cashel and Thurles - both good, not unnattractive heritage towns.
Second, the racecourse proposal certainly has potential; I'm not sure about the greyhound stadium though, since Thurles already has one of these. Clonmel has one too; but it looks like something from the 60s and has appalling facilities.
The proposed hotel seems very grandiose to me. Also, hypothetically, if this ever did get built there would be a need to make M8 junction 5 freeflow, and the 9km N75 to Thurles would probably need to be upgraded. If they were to build it at junction 6 instead they'd probably need to construct the N62 Thurles bypass while they were at it.

ANXIOUS

Reminds me of a

Irish and Proud

That sounds like a front to me - is there any controversial development like a superdump etc planned for the area? A few years back, there was to be a Euro Disney style development on the M1 - the very area that a superdump is now to go ahead!

Regards!

Amtmann

Irish and Proud wrote: »

That sounds like a front to me - is there any controversial development like a superdump etc planned for the area? A few years back, there was to be a Euro Disney style development on the M1 - the very area that a superdump is now to go ahead!

Regards!

While not wishing to come across as a default defender of the proposed Tipperary Venue, it does seem a lot more pragmatic than the pseudo Euro Disney proposal for the M1. A state of the art race track, golf course, concert hall, hotel, and original White House replica in the heart of Tipperary on the Dublin to Cork motorway only 15km from the Rock of Cashel is a bold vision, but it's one that would have very broad appeal.

And I honestly don't see how it could be a cover for a dump - Quirke would hardly wish to become hated in his own community by being known as a deceiver and landfill creator. On the contrary, it sounds as though a great deal of thought has been put into this. At the very least the racetrack, golf course and concert hall sound viable, even if the casino doesn't. I look forward to reading the Clonmel Nationalist tomorrow. If they have further details, I'll photograph the articles and upload them here.

Amtmann

Thurles racecourse will close, says Molony

By Pat Keane
Wednesday, October 28, 2009

ONE of the consequences of yesterday’s announcement of a new track for Tipperary is confirmation Thurles racecourse will close.

Thurles has long been in need of a major facelift, but remains much loved by it’s National Hunt patrons in particular.

The promoter of The Tipperary Venue (Richard Quirke) and Horse Racing Ireland (HRI) stressed they are very conscious of the history and tradition of racing at Thurles racecourse, under the management of the Molony family. He revealed that discussions have taken place with the Molony family and an understanding has been reached on a transition process.

For transition read that, as soon as the turf track is up and running at the Tipperary Venue, Thurles will close.

This was confirmed by Pierce Molony, manager and owner of Thurles racecourse, last night.

He said: "We met with Richard Quirke and Michael Lowry in the early part of the summer. We were very impressed with their plans and realised this project was going to go ahead. We are not in a position to invest in the course at Thurles and, if we won’t invest, then neither will HRI. Richard made us an interesting offer to transfer our fixtures to The Tipperary Venue. Discussions are on-going, but once the turf track is ready at The Tipperary Venue, Thurles will close."

This story appeared in the printed version of the Irish Examiner Wednesday, October 28, 2009

http://www.examiner.ie/sport/thurles-racecourse-will-close-says-molony-104334.html

***

Tipperary set for ‘mind-blowing’ track

By Pat Keane
Wednesday, October 28, 2009

IRELAND could have a new state-of-the-art racecourse by the spring of 2013.

The course, which will be based on an 800 acre site close to the Tipperary village of Two-Mile-Borris, will include both a National Hunt track and an all-weather flood-lit surface and will form part of a massive €460m investment announced at the Horse and Jockey Hotel near Thurles yesterday.

It is envisaged that it will be a Grade 1 track and also due to be built is a Premier greyhound facility on what will be called The Tipperary Venue.

Both Horse Racing Ireland and the Irish Greyhound Board are understood to support the plans.

There is a great need for a National Hunt course which can race through the winter, and this will be ‘unfloodable’, according to architect, Brian O’Connell. He said the track will be built a metre above the ground and ‘will be better than anything seen before’.

Legendary trainer Aidan O’Brien described the impressive presentation as "amazing, mind-blowing".

He continued: "It’s what the world has been waiting for, we will be able to hold the Breeders’ Cup at this track. Everyone knows how hard it is becoming, with the weather, to race here in the summer and winter.

"This will be an all-weather with grass and the whole project will be good for the economy. It is a phenomenal project and just what the Irish racing industry needs. It will be fantastic to have a world-class facility in Co Tipperary and I eagerly await having many runners there."

Ballydoyle number one jockey, Johnny Murtagh added: "These are fantastic plans. We are supposed to have the best horses, jockeys and trainers in the country and now we are going to have the best racecourse."

Chief Executive of HRI, Brian Kavanagh, said: "We have been presented with the plans for The Tipperary Venue and are impressed with their ambition. We wish the promoters well and look forward to working with them on the racing aspects of the development."

It is estimated the racecourses will cost in the region of €50m and will be broadly based on the Leopardstown model.

As well as the courses and greyhound track there are many other aspects to what promises to be an extraordinary development.

The magnificent site, alongside the M8 motorway, between Dublin and Cork, will also become home to a 500 room five-star hotel and a casino.

The government has initiated a complete policy review and a redrafting of the current legislation on gaming in Ireland. It is hoped this will provide for the licensing of gaming casinos in the country. There are further plans for an 18-hole golf course, driving range, retail outlets, equestrian centre, timber chapel and a heliport.

The Tipperary Venue is the brainchild of Thurles-born Dublin-based businessman, Richard Quirke.

He is best known as the creative force behind Dr Quirkey’s Good Time Emporium and also has a wide variety of successful business ventures.

"It’s an opportunistic time to do this, if you wanted to do it three or four years ago it would probably cost 40% more," said Quirke who has reportedly invested €30m in the project.

Close to another €500m has to be found with independent TD for North Tipperary, Michael Lowry, who has been closely associated with the project from the start revealing that: "they will not be relying on the banking sector for investment."

Should planning permission be granted, and that is due to lodged with North Tipperary Co Council this morning, work will begin on the site in the spring of next year.

It is expected that 1,000 people will be employed annually for the three years of construction and a further 2,000 full-time jobs will be created thereafter.

This story appeared in the printed version of the Irish Examiner Wednesday, October 28, 2009

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/tipperary-set-for-mind-blowing-track-104333.html

***

A PLANNING application for what Michael Lowry TD has described as “the most sophisticated and ambitious project that Ireland has ever seen” will be lodged with North Tipperary County Council this morning.
The Independent TD was speaking yesterday in Horse and Jockey at the launch of a €460 million cultural, sporting and leisure development featuring a huge casino and new all-weather racecourse.
The development, called the Tipperary Venue, is proposed for an 800-acre site close to the village of Two-Mile-Borris in the heart of Mr Lowry’s Tipperary North constituency.
The developer, Richard Quirke, did not speak during a one-hour presentation to invited guests. Mr Lowry said he wished “to explain to the media who he is”.
The former Fine Gael minister said: “In these times of economic challenge, our country needs businessmen like Richard Quirke” whom he described as “a local man made good who wanted to give something back”.
He praised his “ambition, vision and innovation” and thanked him for “having the strength and courage to commission this massive development.”
After the event, Mr Quirke, a former garda, told The Irish Times that he had “made a lot of money” from property in Dublin including the sale of the old Carlton cinema. His company, the Dublin Pool and Juke Box Co, runs the Dr Quirkey’s Good Time Emporium arcade on O’Connell Street.
Mr Quirke, who is from Thurles, has bought the land and already spent €30 million on the Tipperary Venue project.
He said he had “considerable monies” and was confident that he could raise financial backing from “foreign investors”. He would not approach Irish banks because “even if they were interested”, he “wouldn’t go near them”.
Mr Lowry said “no State money” would be needed for the project “which will float on its own commercial merit”. He was confident that planning permission would be secured by the end of the year and that construction could start early in 2010.
An estimated 1,000 jobs would be created in building the facility, which would eventually create 2,000 full-time jobs.
Mr Lowry said, however, the project was dependent on the Oireachtas passing proposed new legislation to enable the opening of casinos. The plans had “already been presented to the Taoiseach”, Ministers and other officials and “got a warm response”. He was confident that the necessary legislation would be passed and that there would be no objections to the plans, which have “the full support of the local community”.
Dublin architect Brian O’Connell, who designed the Tipperary Venue, said it would include a 500-bedroom, five-star hotel; a vast 6,000sq m casino; an all-weather racecourse; a greyhound track and a golf course.
It would also include an underground entertainment centre with a retractable roof capable of holding 15,000 people which would be “the rural equivalent of Dublin’s 02 complex”.
Mr O’Connell said Ireland’s gambling laws were “outdated” and that the Department of Justice was broadly in support of the plans” for the casino.
The site, which is located off the M8 Dublin-Cork motorway, would also feature a full-size replica of the White House in Washington as “a memorial to James Hoban”, the 18th-century Irish architect from Co Kilkenny who emigrated to the US and won a competition to design the president’s residence.
The “Tipperary White House” would be used as “a banqueting facility” and also to host wedding receptions. A chapel is to be built in the grounds which will have parking for up to 8,000 cars and “aerial access” via a large heliport.
The existing racecourse at Thurles is to be closed when the new facility is built. The project claims to have the backing of Horse Racing Ireland.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/1028/1224257552408.html

Irish and Proud

Furet wrote: »

While not wishing to come across as a default defender of the proposed Tipperary Venue, it does seem a lot more pragmatic than the pseudo Euro Disney proposal for the M1. A state of the art race track, golf course, concert hall, hotel, and original White House replica in the heart of Tipperary on the Dublin to Cork motorway only 15km from the Rock of Cashel is a bold vision, but it's one that would have very broad appeal.

And I honestly don't see how it could be a cover for a dump - Quirke would hardly wish to become hated in his own community by being known as a deceiver and landfill creator. On the contrary, it sounds as though a great deal of thought has been put into this. At the very least the racetrack, golf course and concert hall sound viable, even if the casino doesn't. I look forward to reading the Clonmel Nationalist tomorrow. If they have further details, I'll photograph the articles and upload them here.

...well ok, I'll give the benefit of the doubt...

...if this is a serious proposal, then the best of luck to Quirke - I always like people with vision and especially those who like to push the boat out a bit - that's what this country needs more of - drive and ambition!

Regards!

Amtmann

Amen to that. I love these big ideas too. Too often people scoff at visionaries - but this idea taps into what Tipperary is about culturally as a region. It takes all that - the sport, the greenery, the horses - and proposes a creation that would be of national importance (I'm thinking more about the concert arena and sporting venues rather than the casino; I actually think casinos are tacky). It also would inject life and vibrancy into one of the most economically stagnant regions of Ireland, and would do so in a manner that actually draws on traditional economic activities within the county. I think the fact that it has been officially acknowledged that Thurles Racecourse will close lends the project an added sense of legitimacy: it isn't just cock and bull or, indeed, a red herring.

MrMicra

Jobs for Poles and gambling addictions for Irish people.

murphaph

Poles pay income tax/VAT etc. too. A job in Ireland is a job in Ireland.

Irish people can already gamble with ease from the comfort of their own internet connection.

marmurr1916

The development of a new horse racecourse and greyhound-racing track at this site would mean the closure of the existing Thurles racecourse and greyhound-racing track.

In that case, what is the net jobs benefit of those elements of the development?

The casino element of the proposal depends on changes to Irish law - a possibility rather than a racing certainty.

Amtmann

Thurles Racecourse will close. This has already been announced and accepted on foot of these proposals by Thurles Racecourse's owners. Regarding the dog track, Bord na gCon seems to support the new proposals. Thurles Greyhound Stadium was rennovated in the 90s, but it's very small, all things considered. The jobs benefit would presumably be that more jobs would ultimately be created by virtue of the absolute superiority of the proposed new stadia, and the increased capacity and frequency of meetings that these would allow.

Aidric

I wish Mr Quirke all the best with this ambitious project. It would be a huge draw for people allover the country and a massive fillet for an economically depressed mid west region. As he says himself he can get it built for a fraction of what it would have cost him a few years ago, as well as providing much needed employment.

Reginald P. DuM

This is pretty ambitious on the whole, but I'm very hopeful it can be seen through. Quirke had already invested in the region of 30 million euro in the project, it's unlikely he has done that without having a pretty good idea that it'll take off.

It's a mixture between self financing and other investors, cash rich ones so the banks won't be needed, so they won't hold it up while they decide can they get their filthy hands on some of the profits.

Thurles Racecouse is closing but will remain as facility for training and schooling of horses. It's a large enough site with potential to also develop some retail park perhaps.

No bad can come from this. Best of luck to all who get involved.

marmurr1916

Furet wrote: »

Thurles Racecourse will close. This has already been announced and accepted on foot of these proposals by Thurles Racecource's owners. Regarding the dog track, Bord na gCon seems to support the new proposals. Thurles Greyhound Stadium was rennovated in the 90s, but it's very small, all things considered. The jobs benefit would presumably be that more jobs would ultimately be created by virtue of the absolute superiority of the proposed new stadia, and the increased capacity and frequency of meetings that these would allow.

I hope that happens.

A gambling-based development is always going to be a big gamble (pun intended), especially during a global recession.

On the other hand, the numbers of Chinese people who visit tourist destinations overseas is set is increasing and they love gambling.

Amtmann

I hope it happens too. At the end of the day this will be funded by private money and it will create jobs and facilities of national importance. Why the begrudgery and nay-saying from so many people? I admit that when most people hear "Two-Mile Borris" they probably think of bogs, cows and muck, but that view is no longer fair - the site is very strategically located, and, upon completion of the M8 next year will be barely an hour from the Red Cow and Dunkettle.
The architecture seems redolent of the Cliffs of Moher visitors' centre, and appears well considered. I am still baulking at the scale of the proposal envisaged (retail units and the casino), and see the benefits mostly in terms of the sporting and concert facilities planned. If the GAA decided to relocate Semple there as well, it would really be something.
You'd have to imagine that Cashel and Thurles would do particularly well out of this, too. But ASSUMING it all goes hunky dorey and gets built, junction 5 of the M8 would need to be rebuilt and the N75 would have to be realigned. For major events it would be excellent to have traffic from Limerick and the west use the M7 to Portlaoise and take the M8 south, but of course, we've a limited access junction there as well.

Images below.

BluntGuy

I'm suitably impressed by these proposals. Of course I remain incredibly skeptical of their viability at a time like this, but the ambition and desire to press ahead with these projects is clearly there, and that's commendable.

What is also commendable is that the project will actually have genuine, tangible benefits for a large number of people, native and non-native alike. Unlike the usual large-scale building proposals which generally involve either large aimless expanses of shoddy cardboard houses, ugly glass office blocks (usually all cut down to a mediocre and limiting 6 storeys thanks to our wonderful planning board) or inappropiate retail developments (especially near motorways), THESE proposals have potential to provide actual useful amnenties and both social and economic benefits.

Even if just a phase of this project (the greyhound stadium and maybe some retail) were to go ahead in the next 5 years, it would be a massive boost. If ALL of it were to go ahead, the results could be incredible. And with excellent access to the M8 (and hence M7 - though thanks to the stupid design M7/M8 junction design Limerick traffic will have to turn off before the toll section, or else turn back and pay two tolls).

I'm going to keep a close eye on this project. The cynic in me says "what's the catch?". The skeptic says "forget it". But that tiny shred of optimism within me, says that this development might just go ahead... how amazing would that be!

marmurr1916

Furet wrote: »

I hope it happens too. At the end of the day this will be funded by private money and it will create jobs and facilities of national importance. Why the begrudgery and nay-saying from so many people? I admit that when most people hear "Two-Mile Borris" they probably think of bogs, cows and muck, but that view is no longer fair - the site is very strategically located, and, upon completion of the M8 next year will be barely an hour from the Red Cow and Dunkettle.
The architecture seems redolent of the Cliffs of Moher visitors' centre, and appears well considered. I am still baulking at the scale of the proposal envisaged (retail units and the casino), and see the benefits mostly in terms of the sporting and concert facilities planned. If the GAA decided to relocate Semple there as well, it would really be something.
You'd have to imagine that Cashel and Thurles would do particularly well out of this, too. But ASSUMING it all goes hunky dorey and gets built, junction 5 of the M8 would need to be rebuilt and the N75 would have to be realigned. For major events it would be excellent to have traffic from Limerick and the west use the M7 to Portlaoise and take the M8 south, but of course, we've a limited access junction there as well.

Images below.

Thanks for pics.

A few transport improvements will be needed before the development goes ahead:

*full-access junction 5 on M8
*fix M7/M8 interchange to allow traffic from Limerick to access M8
*upgrade N75 to D2 from M8 to development site (at least, preferably to Thurles)
*increase capacity of Thurles train station
*introduce free shuttle-bus service between Thurles train station and site

Just noticed that the Moyne Aerodrome is only a short distance north of the proposed site.

This might need to be upgraded too!

Amtmann

*Sigh* Yet again we are facing the prospect of having to re-do silly, short-sighted junctions. Motorways have a life-expectancy of REALLY LONG, to put it facetiously. I sincerely hope we never build a retricted access motorway-to-motorway interchange ever again. Junction 5 should not be a big deal to fix; but I think it should be freeflow when the time comes.

BluntGuy

This isn't meant to spawn a discussion about other websites, nor give them free-advertising, but for your own interest, there's some discussion going on at politics.ie where as per usual when it comes to matters like this, a frighteningly high perecentage of the posts are cynical twaddle.

Archiseek is good for discussion and while this one hasn't gone very far, it may develop. I'd keep on eye on it.

Skyscrapercity may also have a discussion very soon.

Amtmann

Most people laugh when they hear that a replica White House and a casino are to be built at Two-Mile Borris. Admittedly it sounds preposterous at first and I suppose people just instinctively scoff. Poor reporting and headline-grabbing are largely to blame. BTW - there's also a discussion here and here where yet more cynicism prevails.

Judgement Day

Irish and Proud wrote: »

...well ok, I'll give the benefit of the doubt...

...if this is a serious proposal, then the best of luck to Quirke - I always like people with vision and especially those who like to push the boat out a bit - that's what this country needs more of - drive and ambition!

Regards!

Like the Sean Dunne's mess at Jurys and at the AIB Bank Centre in Ballsbridge??? or Zoe Deveopment at the old gasworks site?? we won't even mention the contaminated top soil ending up dumped in the Dublin mountains!! Just what we don't need is anymore of these mad cap 'Celtic Tiger' schemes . In recent years 'drive and ambition' has been corrupted to equal pure 'greed and insanity' nothing more nothing less.

Aidan1

I only have one question really - where is the demand for this going to come from? The amount of revenue needed to support an investment of this size is huge, and it would need huge footfall and a very regular rota of events to keep it going.

Moreover, planting it between Cork and Dublin runs the very real risk of falling between two stools, even for the evening attractions a place like this would need to have any hope of keeping going. Dublin has the 02, and a range of other, smaller, venues, and Cork may well have a concert venue in the Docklands (already does if you count the Marquee), along with a range of other smaller venues (In Limerick, they've started using Thomond Park as a venue also).

Frankly, I can see the need and justification for a high end equestrian centre in this country, and Tipp is the right place for it, geographically and culturally. But the associated elements are so over the top as to awaken the cynic in me that would suggest that perhaps a racecourse/equestrian centre is all that will ever be built, and the rest is just bait for the planners ...

BluntGuy

Aidan1 wrote: »

Moreover, planting it between Cork and Dublin runs the very real risk of falling between two stools, even for the evening attractions a place like this would need to have any hope of keeping going. Dublin has the 02, and a range of other, smaller, venues, and Cork may well have a concert venue in the Docklands (already does if you count the Marquee), along with a range of other smaller venues (In Limerick, they've started using Thomond Park as a venue also).

This is a very good point. Its proposed location could be described as being, "in the middle of no-where" with regard to major settlements. However, provide a mix of high-class hotel facilities and budget ones and the range of attractions *may* just be enough to get people to treat it as an experience akin to going to a concert and staying there, rather than "typical night out" entertainment.

Sponge Bob

Let me see, €460m @ a commercial interest rate of 10% is €46m a year in interest alone or around €1m a week.

It will of course make €1m profit a week, sure why wouldn't it .

bacon&cabbage

marmurr1916 wrote: »

A few transport improvements will be needed before the development goes ahead:
.
.
.
*fix M7/M8 interchange to allow traffic from Limerick to access M8
]

Huh, maybe I'm missing something here, but going to Thurles/Two-Mile Borris from Limerick via the M7/M8 would be insane, even if the junction was fixed

Amtmann

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Let me see, €460m @ a commercial interest rate of 10% is €46m a year in interest alone or around €1m a week.

Assuming every cent is borrowed, of course. These guys aren't stupid.

bacon&cabbage wrote: »

Huh, maybe I'm missing something here, but going to Thurles/Two-Mile Borris from Limerick via the M7/M8 would be insane, even if the junction was fixed

Well, I suppose the best thing would be for Limerick traffic to take the M7 to junction 22 (Roscrea) and then the N62 to Thurles. But in Germany for instance traffic tends to follow the motorways, even if the route is more circuitous, Rothenburg ob der Tauber to Nuremburg for instance. It's just safer.

Sponge Bob

Furet wrote: »

Assuming every cent is borrowed, of course. These guys aren't stupid.

Assume a 90% mortgage then so that is €0.9m a week to cover the interest . No worries sure it will bucket in . I am surprised they have not proposed a permanent site for the ploughing and all :cool:

But in Germany for instance traffic tends to follow the motorways, even if the route is more circuitous, Rothenburg ob der Tauber to Nuremburg for instance. It's just safer.

Quite, let them pay for an upgrade to the M7/M8 junction or the regional road from Mountrath to near Abbeyleix . Small beer in the overall context of this '€460m' project .

Move the Midlands intenational airport to that Moyne Aerodrome ( with a TGV spur off the Dublin Cork track ) instead of to a possibly bottomless bog near Clara and we are still winning all the way

Might as well buy the ****in space shuttle and all and run a park and ride for funderland every christmas .

Bluetonic

Irish and Proud wrote: »

That sounds like a front to me - is there any controversial development like a superdump etc planned for the area? A few years back, there was to be a Euro Disney style development on the M1 - the very area that a superdump is now to go ahead!

Regards!

Different land totally, around 10km apart.

xisarouf

'TRAINER Aidan O'Brien believes that a proposed €50m racecourse for North Tipperary could become a Breeders' Cup facility'

Where would the Breeders Cup style prize money cone from, Tote Ireland, HRI?

Driving through Thurles the other day I saw Dr.Quirkeys stickers all over abandonded factorys, is this the first shove to winf the hearts and minds of the locals?

Casino, Casino, Casino.

marmurr1916

bacon&cabbage wrote: »

Huh, maybe I'm missing something here, but going to Thurles/Two-Mile Borris from Limerick via the M7/M8 would be insane, even if the junction was fixed

Well the alternatives are a really crap regional road (R503) between Limerick and Thurles or Limerick-Nenagh-(soon to be M7)-Borrisoleigh-Thurles, using the R498.

Limerick to Two-Mile Borris via the R503/N75 is about 75km, Limerick-Nenagh-Borrisoleigh-Thurles is about 90km (about 45km on M7).

You can use either those routes or Limerick-Tipp Town-Dundrum-Thurles (ca. 80km), again using fairly crappy roads.

Any of these routes would take about one hour, assuming no delays in Thurles or en route.

The M7/M8/N75 route would be longer (ca. 130km) but would probably take about the same time since you'd be travelling at motorway speed for most of the journey.

bacon&cabbage

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Well the alternatives are a really crap regional road (R503) between Limerick and Thurles or Limerick-Nenagh-(soon to be M7)-Borrisoleigh-Thurles, using the R498.

Limerick to Two-Mile Borris via the R503/N75 is about 75km, Limerick-Nenagh-Borrisoleigh-Thurles is about 90km (about 45km on M7).

You can use either those routes or Limerick-Tipp Town-Dundrum-Thurles (ca. 80km), again using fairly crappy roads.

Any of these routes would take about one hour, assuming no delays in Thurles or en route.

The M7/M8/N75 route would be longer (ca. 130km) but would probably take about the same time since you'd be travelling at motorway speed for most of the journey.

I think we'll agree to differ on this one

Sigma Force

While the road from Dub to Twomileborris is pretty good there is a fierce jam in Abbeyleix every day it's a nightmare, aparently they are working on that part of the motorway either way something would have to be done to by pass it. Then there's the Limerick route it's a real pain driving from Limerick to there all the roads getting to the venue would have to be spot on.
A lot of being worked on but seem to be taking forever to complete.

If it happens it happens it a matter of wait and see, there is a huge need for something new and different in the area. Not a fan of the racing industry though but the area is racing mad as it is so that won't change.

Job wise 2,000 upon completion as a lot of local buisness have died and a lot aren't doing too well. Not to mention the local mine being for sale, it should benifit the locals.

How much of an environmental impact will this place have, we are loosing are green fields and hedgerows by the acre it no longer feels like the countryside.

marmurr1916

bacon&cabbage wrote: »

I think we'll agree to differ on this one

Fair enough.

I prefer driving longer distances on faster, better-quality roads than shorter distances on slower, poorer-quality roads.

tipptop2008

xisarouf wrote: »

'TRAINER Aidan O'Brien believes that a proposed €50m racecourse for North Tipperary could become a Breeders' Cup facility'

Where would the Breeders Cup style prize money cone from, Tote Ireland, HRI?

Driving through Thurles the other day I saw Dr.Quirkeys stickers all over abandonded factorys, is this the first shove to winf the hearts and minds of the locals?

Casino, Casino, Casino.

Quirke owns that site too - thats the reason the signs are outside the factory. It used to be the Erin Foods factory.

For the person who was talking about Abbeyleix this bypass should be opened around the middle of next year so that problem will be solved long before it opens.

Amtmann

Apparantly the site is at Turnpike on the old N8 (now the R639) on the right-hand-side of that road as one heads for Dublin. He's already bought over 100 acres there.

JupiterKid

This all sounds like a typical Irish pipedream to me. The White House "replica" seems especially cringeworthy and tacky. Why don't they go the whole hog and built a South Fork replica while they're at it too?:rolleyes:

I suspect the developers are planning for one or two elements to eventually get the green light by the planners (such as the race course) and the rest will be quietly dropped.

wjc

People are losing sight of the fact that project depends on legislation change on casinos. Without casino,the project will not go ahead. Developers have made this clear.

asdasd

We could declare Tipperary a reservation.

I too think that the whole proposal is a pipedream, but it may work if the gambling is allowed. However we have to get away from the middle of nowhere attitude we used to have in the days before the motorways. Anywhere on the M8 as far as Tipp is a day trip from Dublin/Leinster, as it is from Cork/ Munster Its not 1928, or 1992 ( where the roads were not that different).

Once the Abbelyleix motorway is finished this is close to Dublin. Tipp is central not the bad lands. Such is the nature of mWays. Towns grew up along the M4 corridor in the UK.

I dont see that happening in Ireland, but towns on the route or just off it are commutable to Dublin and Cork. In fact you could live in Tipp and commute to either, giving you choice when changing jobs.

(Having said that I may now look at Tipperary property!).

Chris_533976

But in each case its nice and quick to get TO Dublin and Cork, but thats different from getting INTO Dublin and Cork.

asdasd

True but a lot of jobs are on, or just off, the M50, and the Cork equivalent. Whatever that is.

Amtmann

I have the PDF brochure on my computer but at 2.8MB, boards won't allow me to upload it.

EDIT: PM me with your email address if you'd like me to send it to you.

serfboard

wjc wrote: »

People are losing sight of the fact that project depends on legislation change on casinos. Without casino,the project will not go ahead. Developers have made this clear.

Yes, and it's not the first time that developers have promised all sorts of great facilities, so long as they can stick in "a bit of an oul' casino" as well.

Except, in this case it's a 6,000 sq. m. casino :eek:

I'm interested to see that Michael Lowry is involved in it as well. It's bound to be an undertaking of the highest integrity with him on board.:rolleyes:

BluntGuy

Brochure can be downloaded here...

One notable quote:

Immediate access to the N8 primary road, and the M8, two-lane motorway

archtech

A good few submissions on the planning file no matter what decision is made, I expect its going to be appealed to An Bord Pleanala.

Amtmann

From that:

Provision of new 4-arm roundabout on R639 to serve proposed develop. Provision of emergency only access rd. with priority junction onto R639. vi) Link Rd. to connect R639 (via new 3-arm roundabout) to recently constructed Two Mile Borris Grade Separated Junction on M8 & construct 2No. slip lanes to complete the diamond interchange. Widening of approaches to roundabouts at Two Mile Borris Interchange to allow two way flow. Segregated left turn lane (on existing southbound diverge) to allow traffic to join proposed Lind Rd in a free flow manner. Termination of existing accommod. rd (on sth. side of new Link Rd) & new access onto northern side of link rd. for exist. accomm. rd.

BluntGuy

One has to wonder why the junction wasn't finished in the first place.

Amtmann

Assuming all of the developments go ahead and are built and draw the expected crowds, do people think a diamond interchange will be sufficient, or should it be free-flow?

ShaneIRL

archtech wrote: »

A good few submissions on the planning file no matter what decision is made, I expect its going to be appealed to An Bord Pleanala.

Anyone have any update on this?