The whole ubuntu thing...

Herbal Deity

Yeah...

Unfortuantely, there's also the problem of blindness in many Ubuntu (and often Linux in general also) evangelists. While Ubuntu might be easier than most Linux distros to get up and running, there's usually always something that needs to be done to get it configured right, which might seem like nothing to someone comfortable with writing a simple script or editing a few text files, but, for example, requiring the average user to blacklist wireless drivers and set up ndiswrapper if they happen to have an unsupported wifi card can render the OS useless to someone. I've also had issues with things like audio drivers in the past also, which've required me to get my hands a little dirty. It's not as user friendly as it's said to be.

And then there's the problem of Ubuntu being overvalued and overpromoted by its followers because of blind antiWindowsism. I've met people who still think Windows XP/Vista/7 is as unstable as 95, joking about blue screens etc. (personally, I haven't gotten a blue screen in years). They think it's slow, when it generally isn't. They basically have the attitude that Ubuntu is a much better alternative to Windows for everyone because, well, why would anyone want to use that PoS that is Windows?

I agree with your sentiment that you use a different OS depending on what you want to do, not to make some kind of statement to the world.

jaqian

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

You may see it like that ...... I don't.

I see it as an indication of the success of Linux ........ and Linux does not equal Ubuntu ..... not that most Ubuntu advocates would believe that I suppose ....

Your right Ubuntu isn't Linux but so what. Linux needs a distro to wave the flag and say look at me, that distro is Ubuntu.

There are too many distros for the average person to understand what Linux is but if they have heard of Ubuntu then its a start.

Personally I don't like Ubuntu, I think their desktop isn't much better than win95. However as a base for another distro its fantastic. I have Mint on my desktop, Spri on an old Dell Inspiron and I had FreeSpire on another laptop... all Ubuntu based. Now I'm looking at CrunchBang#! to replace Spri. Everything I've used is Ubuntu based.

Debian and by extension Ubuntu are becoming the de facto Linux standard. I'm no Ubuntu fan-boy, I'm just glad that any distro is standing out. Its the only way to win people over from Microsoft and maybe Apple. Its also the only way to get better hardware support.

stevenmu

I don't think of myself as a Linux user, but I tend to dip into it every now and then, and the last few times I've gone for Ubuntu (installed Karmic last night). Some of the reasons are:

-Simplicity of install: I know there's other distros out there now that match it, but Ubuntu (to my knowledge at least) pioneered the very simple install. I also used Wubi a few times when I didn't want to repartition which was very handy.

-Balanced/comprehensive defaults: There's a lot of distros specialising in various things, and many which are stronger than Ubuntu in particular areas, but Ubuntu by default is a pretty well balanced and fairly comprehensive defaults for your standard home desktop user.

-Software installation: I know being Debian based that it shares this with Debian itself and it's other derivatives, but it is a plus and it comes configured for a pretty good repository.

-Support: The various Ubuntu forums and wikis etc provide great support/knowledge base. There's probably others that are equally as good, but I've found the Ubuntu ones tend to expect users to be pretty newbish which works well for me.

All in all Ubuntu, to me at least, comes across as being a well rounded and well put together package, as opposed to being a particular version of a kernel with a particular window manager on top etc. Running Ubuntu 9.10 feels like I'm running Ubuntu 9.10 as opposed to Kernel 2.6.whatever and Gnome 2.28.something. I can understand how that really wouldn't suit some people, but for someone just dipping in every now and then it works very well.

I know some of the other distros have done a lot of catching up in this regard (Mint?), but Ubuntu to my mind really pioneered presenting a Linux based OS as a single consolidated product. (or maybe if not pioneered then at least they were among the first to really get it right)

D4RK ONION

Herbal Deity wrote: »

Who it really is good for is the person who's reasonably proficient at computers, would have an interest in trying out linux, but would have found it just that bit too difficult with another distro. Not that there aren't distros besides Ubuntu that can serve the same purpose, but it's the easiest one to get into which I've tried. It's forgiving, and it's popularity means there's plenty of support available.

It's like you know me!

Snowbat

Leman_Russ wrote: »

I would use ubuntu instead of windows tbh, but the Wireless card I use is not supported, even though Ubuntu supposidly had Broadcom 43xx support in the kernal.

It does. What's missing is Broadcom's *firmware* which cannot be included because Broadcom won't release it under a licence that allows for distribution. They wouldn't help with a Linux driver or tech specs, you hardly expect them to facilitate this?

What you need is the b43-fwcutter package.
See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs/Driver/bcm43xx

So, in order to get the drivers for me to connect to the internet, it wants me to connect to the internet.

Charming.

As per the page, if you can provide an alternative connection (eg. ethernet), b43-fwcutter will download the required files, extract the firmware and set everything up for you. If you can't, it is possible to download the required files in advance and point b43-fwcutter at them for setup.

This situation is the same in Mandriva, and I expect most other dstros too. Once installed, the driver/firmware works very well for me for a BCM4318 card in Mandriva 2009.1.

woop

Dartz wrote: »

Xfce does it simply:

Applications >> Settings >> Keyboard >> Application shortcuts.

Should be simple from then on in. Set them to whatever you want.

ah ok, I dont use xfce.......hmm I thought something like this shouldnt work because it calls the partition to boot as opposed to being a program to load

thanks though might be an option down the road

Stark

elix wrote: »

What just annoys me is the whole perception that "linux is ubuntu".

They're just being stupid. Everyone knows linux is Redhat.

woop

Stark wrote: »

They're just being stupid. Everyone knows linux is Redhat.

hehe:)

Eliot Rosewater

Yeah even though Im an Ubuntu supporter and user the fanboys are starting to annoy me.

I set up a thread on Ubuntu Forums about how difficult the reinstall was. My point was that Ubuntu shouldnt be marketed as easy to install or "for Human Beings" unless the releases are compatible with most people.

The responses included:

• Its your fault for accepting the 9.10 defaults of ext4 and grub2 which apparently dont work well together
• Your story and opinion are worthless because you only joined these forums yesterday
• Its ok that Ubuntu is hard to install because .. Windows is hard to install too - this I found especially ironic seeming as the Ubuntu community thrives on bashing Windows.
• Its your fault for downloading the latest release. Apparently I should have waited. Tell that to the new users who see big 9.10 on the Ubuntu website.

In my opinion the fanboys are doing damage to Ubuntu and Linux in general. They show a complete inability to take criticism.

Johnboy1951

Originally Posted by Herbal Deity View Post
It's better people thinking Ubuntu is synonmous Linux than never having heard of or been exposed to Linux.

So misinformation is better than none ..... interesting concept.

BOZG

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Yeah even though Im an Ubuntu supporter and user the fanboys are starting to annoy me.

I set up a thread on Ubuntu Forums about how difficult the reinstall was. My point was that Ubuntu shouldnt be marketed as easy to install or "for Human Beings" unless the releases are compatible with most people.

The responses included:

• Its your fault for accepting the 9.10 defaults of ext4 and grub2 which apparently dont work well together
• Your story and opinion are worthless because you only joined these forums yesterday
• Its ok that Ubuntu is hard to install because .. Windows is hard to install too - this I found especially ironic seeming as the Ubuntu community thrives on bashing Windows.
• Its your fault for downloading the latest release. Apparently I should have waited. Tell that to the new users who see big 9.10 on the Ubuntu website.

In my opinion the fanboys are doing damage to Ubuntu and Linux in general. They show a complete inability to take criticism.

In fairness, the type of people who make those responses are generally a minority. I think the Ubuntu Forums community is one thing that really makes Ubuntu shine above other distros. Though I guess that's partly a result of Ubuntu being one of the most "mainstream" distros rather than other distro communities being less helpful or friendly.

That being said ,I've had bad experiences with some people on the #ubuntu channel. I remember when I first started using Ubuntu, I was trying to install something and couldn't find it in the repos so tried to install it manually but I was missing dependancies which I also had to install manually. I asked for help in #ubuntu and I remember someone refusing to offer any assistance other than "You're going to break your system. If you don't know what you're doing, then don't do it." And that was his only reply despite me constantly asking how I would go about installing this package. You have to wonder what's the point in visiting a help channel or a help forum if you insist on being completely obnoxious and unhelpful!

As for the fanboys, I posted something on the Testimonials forum on Ubuntu Forums where I accused a layer of either Ubuntu or Linux users (can't remember which now) of trying to out do Mac fanboys in their complete nobbishness. I reserve a particular hatred for the type of fanboys who's solution to all computer woes (Windows or Linux) is "Use Ubuntu" or "Use Linux" or "Use Mac". How about you actually help someone with their problem, explain what went wrong and then explain why Linux or Ubuntu or whatever doesn't cause that problem.

BOZG

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

So misinformation is better than none ..... interesting concept.

I don't think the poster is implying that. If someone goes to the effort of installing Ubuntu because they think they're installing Linux, they'll quickly realise the error and we've got the benefit of someone who's converted.

Eliot Rosewater

BOZG wrote: »

In fairness, the type of people who make those responses are generally a minority. I think the Ubuntu Forums community is one thing that really makes Ubuntu shine above other distros.

Im going to resist the urge to judge a whole website on the basis of one thread I set up I think its no secret that the community is very helpful. Type "Ubuntu" and a problem into Google and you nearly always get someone who had the exact same problem as you did.

However I think if you "cocoon" yourself enough within a small community you tend to get dogmatic. I think because Ubuntu works flawlessly for some they get the impression that its your fault if it doesnt work flawlessly for yourself. But as you said, minoritys.

Naikon

I laugh when people brandish the Linux community as a bunch of
useless knobs, when only a minority of such people exist.

Try dealing with the *BSD or Solaris Unix communities:pac:

Dartz

Try opening a Ubuntu laptop surrounded by three Mac users..

"What version of Windows is that?"

-> "It's not Windows"

"You know Mac is better than that?"

No matter how bad Linux fanboys are, Macfans are worse. The first thing the say when you open up any laptop other than a Mac, is how much more superior they are. I *hate* them so much.

Eliot Rosewater

Dartz wrote: »

No matter how bad Linux fanboys are, Macfans are worse. The first thing the say when you open up any laptop other than a Mac, is how much more superior they are. I *hate* them so much.

Just tell them Mac OS is Linux for those too stupid to pay for it :pac:

Naikon

Dartz wrote: »

Try opening a Ubuntu laptop surrounded by three Mac users..

"What version of Windows is that?"

-> "It's not Windows"

"You know Mac is better than that?"

No matter how bad Linux fanboys are, Macfans are worse. The first thing the say when you open up any laptop other than a Mac, is how much more superior they are. I *hate* them so much.

LMAO

The cult of Mac is headed solely by Steve Jobs:) Intolerence is the key.

At least the Linux/*NIX community is decentralised, which means everybody has
a say on a multitude of different matters.

The ignorent Windows heads(not the tolernet ones) piss me off
the absolute most though. Windows is not the solution for everything.

Dartz

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Just tell them Mac OS is Linux for those too stupid to pay for it :pac:

I must try them

I wouldn't mind.... except quite literally, my current laptop when I bought it, had the exact same hardware as a Macbook Pro. For the exact same features, I paid over a Grand less.

I suppose if you pay so much for something, you'll eventually delude yourself into believing it's awesome, for the sole purpose of saving face so you don't look like an idiot.

dlofnep

Ubuntu is great. I used Linux for a few years about 10 years back. The amount of hassle finding drivers, or decent software was a big issue. I spent a week alone finding drivers for my modem. It's progressed by leaps and bounds. Fair play to the developers of Ubuntu. They've taken linux into the mainstream.

As always, there are still elitists in the Linux community who frown upon a user friendly distro of Linux. This happened years back when I installed Mandrake, and I heard the same nonsense. Then I installed Slackware, and I heard the same from the BSD elitists. People were purposely installing the most crippled, and tedious distributions of linux to just be different. I want an operating system that has great support, that is efficient & secure and that is simple to update and use.

Naikon

Corporate approved products are essential to tricking people.
Marketing can be a very shady game.

Naikon

dlofnep wrote: »

Ubuntu is great. I used Linux for a few years about 10 years back. The amount of hassle finding drivers, or decent software was a big issue. I spent a week alone finding drivers for my modem. It's progressed by leaps and bounds. Fair play to the developers of Ubuntu. They've taken linux into the mainstream.

As always, there are still elitists in the Linux community who frown upon a user friendly distro of Linux. This happened years back when I installed Mandrake, and I heard the same nonsense. Then I installed Slackware, and I heard the same from the BSD elitists. People were purposely installing the most crippled, and tedious distributions of linux to just be different. I want an operating system that has great support, that is efficient & secure and that is simple to update and use.

The only reason *I* use Slackware, Gentoo, and soon Linux from scratch
is because I want a deeper knowledge of working from the command line
/scripting and understanding nuances of Linux. That is the only reason.

Giving slander to an inexperienced user is NOT on though in my book.
Every distro serves a purpose. I like the fact the UI's are not standardised
like Windows, where there is no command line by default, and you have
to put up with stupid animations and such.

The reason the *BSD community has not reached the same market share
as Linux is because they only care about making a solid server OS.

Linux has the potential to become mainstream, most other commerical
Unix flavors/*BSD/esoteric Linux distros do not. It's not their intention to be.

Eliot Rosewater

I suppose Mac is better than Windows? I havent talked to Mac people much, but one guy (not a fan) who uses Mac said "it just works." Which is pretty much what Id say of an installed Ubuntu, that it does what it supposed to do.

Macs commercial support, and the fact its preinstalled and that the OS is tailored to the hardware would be an advantage. Theyre supposed to have great support. Worth spending double on the same specs? Maybe if there was no such thing as Linux. But I really dont see the problem with getting a standard Laptop and throwing Ubuntu on it, and I cant see how Mac OS would be so much better.

I watched Steve Jobs keynote address for this year. It seems they all drool over it. I mean I sometimes drool over Ubuntu (when its working for me :pac:). But drooling over a corporate entity is kind of wierd. Like when he says "shipping for $199" over some external hardware and their all drooling. I mean, thats strange.

Dartz

Naikon wrote: »

Corporate approved products are essential to tricking people.
Marketing can be a very shady game.

I forget when I became aware of 'marketing', as opposed to just seeing the ad's as cool things to buy. It's so dissapointing to see other people spouting the same Mac -v- PC twaddle as on the ad's.... despite the fact that nowadays a Mac is a PC.... and yadda yadda yadda... I ain't going to bore you with it because it's off topic.

There are those people however.... who turn GNOME into an OSX lookalike, including bootsplashes.

WHY!?

But anyway, such things aren't for here either.

9/10 however, I've found the Linux community to be pretty helpful. The people who install a distro as a badge of honour.... they tend to be the ones who insist that helpfiles are for the weak and ignorant, and if you're ignorant you don't deserve to install my distro, because then that diminshes me and my ego.

Herbal Deity

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I suppose Mac is better than Windows? I havent talked to Mac people much, but one guy (not a fan) who uses Mac said "it just works." Which is pretty much what Id say of an installed Ubuntu, that it does what it supposed to do.

Macs commercial support, and the fact its preinstalled and that the OS is tailored to the hardware would be an advantage. Theyre supposed to have great support. Worth spending double on the same specs? Maybe if there was no such thing as Linux. But I really dont see the problem with getting a standard Laptop and throwing Ubuntu on it, and I cant see how Mac OS would be so much better.

As has been mentioned earlier on this thread, what OS is right for you depends entirely on the task(s) you want to use it for.

As ntlbell said:

ntlbell wrote: »

Your OS of choice doesn't define you, it's not who you are, it's not a lifestyle choice.

Naikon

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I suppose Mac is better than Windows? I havent talked to Mac people much, but one guy (not a fan) who uses Mac said "it just works." Which is pretty much what Id say of an installed Ubuntu, that it does what it supposed to do.

Macs commercial support, and the fact its preinstalled and that the OS is tailored to the hardware would be an advantage. Theyre supposed to have great support. Worth spending double on the same specs? Maybe if there was no such thing as Linux. But I really dont see the problem with getting a standard Laptop and throwing Ubuntu on it, and I cant see how Mac OS would be so much better.

I watched Steve Jobs keynote address for this year. It seems they all drool over it. I mean I sometimes drool over Ubuntu (when its working for me :pac:). But drooling over a corporate entity is kind of wierd. Like when he says "shipping for $199" over some external hardware and their all drooling. I mean, thats strange.

It's simply human nature to put blind faith in corporate entities.
Most people don't need to research alternatives because they
have "faith" in that company/brand producing a product.

It's kind of like people who choose to use a simple text editor but
choose not to look at something else because there current editor
does the job/they were told to. It's all marketing tricks really...

Apple take away the hard "task" of actually having to look at
other OS's, because it's percieved as mainstream.

On the other hand, there are a very small number of cases where
people need to stick to a platform because of program availibility.
All of the software I use is cross platform. Not everybody has this
luxury though.

Eliot Rosewater

Indeed that something being discussed on the other thread. Final Cut Pro for Apple is really the standard for Film editing with orgs like BBC using it.

But Im of the opinion (and open to correction) that many computer users only use if for standard cross-platform tasks such as IM'ing, web, browsing, managing photos and music and creating documents. These tasks could be accomplished with either Mac, Windows or most variants of Linux.

Gaming would probably be the biggest thing stopping people from being able to use alternative OS's?

Naikon

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

The biggest thing stopping people from being able to use alternative OS's?

I agree fully here, I only play native games like Quake Live and World of Good ect.
WINE is a crutch that will not help game application support in the long term.

The limited games selection is perfect for me, but gamers will be scolded.
It's slowly changing, but people need to insist on more Linux native games.

dlofnep

Naikon wrote: »

The only reason *I* use Slackware, Gentoo, and soon Linux from scratch
is because I want a deeper knowledge of working from the command line
/scripting and understanding nuances of Linux. That is the only reason.

I don't doubt your intentions at all. I wasn't pointing fingers at anyone specific. It's good to want to understand an operating system at a lower level. But not everyone is like you, and the amount of condescending nonsense I've heard over the years from Linux users was disgusting. It's almost as if they didn't want it to become popular, so they could carve out their own niche hobby for themselves.

But with popularity has come great things - More software development, more hardware support, better interface design, and more user feedback.

I'm glad to have got back into Linux. I'm always learning something new, and it runs like a dream on my laptop - although I do find KDE and Gnome a little bloated - but nothing new there.

Slightly off topic - Just took a look at the Slackware website. It hasn't changed in a decade!

Herbal Deity

Naikon wrote: »

On the other hand, there are a very small number of cases where
people need to stick to a platform because of program availibility.
All of the software I use is cross platform. Not everybody has this
luxury though.

It's not a very small number of cases at all, it's quite a large number of cases and one of the main reasons why a linux distro simply cannot, at present, even begin to compete with Windows or Mac in any real sense.

I used to buy a lot of the rhetoric which made use of words like "corporate" and "marketing" in a negative manner, but I don't really buy it anymore. If Ubuntu had full support for a wide range of the latest games, decent music production software, decent video editing software etc. and a new laptop cost less with it on it than to buy one with Windows, you can bet that a lot of people would opt for it.

Naikon

dlofnep wrote: »

I don't doubt your intentions at all. I wasn't pointing fingers at anyone specific. It's good to want to understand an operating system at a lower level. But not everyone is like you, and the amount of condescending nonsense I've heard over the years from Linux users was disgusting. It's almost as if they didn't want it to become popular, so they could carve out their own niche hobby for themselves.

But with popularity has come great things - More software development, more hardware support, better interface design, and more user feedback.

I'm glad to have got back into Linux. I'm always learning something new, and it runs like a dream on my laptop - although I do find KDE and Gnome a little bloated - but nothing new there.

Slightly off topic - Just took a look at the Slackware website. It hasn't changed in a decade!

True. More support is great for the community as we know.
My ideal future for Linux is that it will cater for all groups combined.

The nerdy image of Linux is being slowly thrashed by Ubuntu.
I feel this is a great step forward. Ubuntu is an excellent distro.

@Slackware - simplicity is key. I like the fact they are not
using any old trendy web tech to tarnish the look. Oldschool:D