News and views on Greystones harbour and marina [SEE MODERATOR WARNING POST 1187]

recedite

Its depressing to see good practice recommendations being overruled like that. It would be nice to have a clinic in the area, but why does it have to be in the middle of the harbour? There is plenty of spare land out towards Charlesland and the IDA site, and of course the infamous vacant land at Three Trouts Stream....

Admittedly the harbour is a hazardous place at the moment. There is one young lad in hospital, after getting his hand impaled on the palisade fencing while being chased off the pier by the harbourmaster. Once upon a time the youth of Greystones were renowned from Wicklow to Dublin for their pier diving skills, but this is slowly being beaten out of them.

Once the harbour is finished however, it will not be in particular need of a medical clinic.

The Durutti Column

I have read the entire Inspector's Report and the Board's decision, in the face of such a robust and densely argued case, is way beyond outrageous.

This is the same old sh1t — good planning made a mockery of, corrupt and incompetent officials and arrogant, overbearing developers connived with. Nothing has changed in this corrupt and benighted country, no lessons learned, no bad habits changed.

It's beyond infuriating or depressing. It tells me one thing — anyone advocating direct and radical action are the only people talking any sense. This state is irredeemable. It's f@cked.

This is an incredibly dispiriting reversal of the senior official's findings, all of which were based on planning considerations.

Nothing has changed in this country despite the experience of the crash. Confirms all my political instincts and my extreme views. This political/social culture can't be fixed, only thoroughly broken into tiny pieces and entirely replaced.

However, I'm too long in the tooth for that kind of thing. I'll have to leave it to the young uns. My GUBOH activity was my last shot...

:mad: :eek:

Fiachra2 wrote: »

It may be of interest to note that the inspector on this case very robustly recomended refusal both for the additional houses and the medical centre.
(For those unfamiliar with the process what happens is that a planning professional-the inspector-reviews that application and any submissions thereon and makes a reccomendation. The Board proper which consists of a set of essentially government appointees then makes a final ruling. They do not give reasons for disagreeing with the inspector)

I have included an extract from the inspectors report which makes interesting reading especially the very last sentence.


The Inspectors' report is available at:
: http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/JA0029.htm

8.0 RECOMMENDATION
I recommend that approval is refused for the proposed amendments to the scheme. It is wholly unsustainable to be seeking to increase the quantum of development on this site at this time and the proposed uses have not been justified. I do not consider that there is any merit in selecting parts of the proposed alterations and de-selecting others when the mix and balance of development previously permitted by the Board is being so materially distorted.

I recommend approval is refused as follows:

1. Having regard to the previous approval under An Bord Pleanála Ref. PL27.EF2016, the proposed significant increase in the quantum of residential development, and the lack of any justification for the introduction of a large-scale primary care centre, it is considered that the proposed development would constitute over-intensification of development on the site, would result in an unacceptable quantum of overall development and would significantly undermine the quality and quantity of public open space previously committed to which forms an integral component of the public realm within the scheme.

In addition, it is considered that the primary care centre would comprise a significantly oversized facility that is not in compliance with the requirements of the Greystones Harbour & North Beach Action Plan for these lands.

Furthermore, it is considered that the proposed development of the residential component comprising Terrace 12 and the development of surface car parking adjacent to Block D would result in a significant intrusion into, and erosion of, the scheme’s important parkland area and the civic amenity space in the vicinity of Block D, thus constituting a substantial reduction in the amenity value of the public spaces within the overall scheme.

The proposed development would, therefore, constitute overdevelopment of the site, would seriously injure the amenities of the area, would produce an unviable mixed use scheme at a time when the quantum of development is not merited, and would, thereby, be contrary to the proper planning and sustainable development of the area.
________________________
Kevin Moore
Senior Planning Inspector
March, 2012

Blanchflower

Bord Pleanala is a political entity. Sustainable development is not on their radar. Ireland is a planning shambles with the countryside littered with abandoned ghost estates. This appalling state of affairs was facilitated by the bad planning decisions made by An Bord Pleanala as instructed by their political masters. Why waste money employing Planning Professionals and their support staff if their recommendations are completely ignored by the political appointees on the Board. This quango is a joke and should now be abolished.:mad:

The Durutti Column

Blanchflower wrote: »

Bord Pleanala is a political entity. Sustainable development is not on their radar. Ireland is a planning shambles with the countryside littered with abandoned ghost estates. This appalling state of affairs was facilitated by the bad planning decisions made by An Bord Pleanala as instructed by their political masters. Why waste money employing Planning Professionals and their support staff if their recommendations are completely ignored by the political appointees on the Board. This quango is a joke and should now be abolished.:mad:

Not the only thing that should be abolished, but you are certainly right, Blanch. What is appalling in this present case is the blanket over-ruling, politically and developer-motivated, of a strong, comprehensive argument based entirely on planning considerations.

People will have to read the entire 59 pages of the inspector's report for themselves, but just look at the unambiguous character of his conclusions:

1. ...the primary care centre would comprise a significantly oversized facility that is not in compliance with the requirements of the Greystones Harbour & North Beach Action Plan...
2. ...lack of any justification for the introduction of a large-scale primary care centre...
3. ...a significant intrusion into, and erosion of, the scheme’s important parkland area and the civic amenity space...a substantial reduction in the amenity value of the public spaces...
4. ...constitute over-intensification of development on the site...
5. ...significantly undermine the quality and quantity of public open space previously committed to...
   
6. The proposed development would, therefore, [be] contrary to the proper planning and sustainable development of the area.

You cannot state it more clearly than that. Yet this expert argument, based clearly on knowledge of the planning laws and process and grounded in the precise requirements of these laws and of our local area plans can be discarded as so much junk by this unelected, government-appointed board.

Rejoice, developers!! You've got the state, local authorities, NAMA and Bord Pleanala on your side. How can you lose?

pixbyjohn

Kayaking at the harbour 5th July 2012 by pixbyjohn, on Flickr

The Durutti Column

recedite wrote: »

Admittedly the harbour is a hazardous place at the moment. There is one young lad in hospital, after getting his hand impaled on the palisade fencing while being chased off the pier by the harbourmaster.

Yes, I heard of this. GUBOH has been telling Sispar and WCC since June 2011 and before that keeping the north pier fenced and off-limits was creating a safety hazard, and that because the site is totally permeable the only way to maximise safety is to open the north pier to the public, providing an access corridor through the site, and by removing the vast expanse of superfluous fencing they have installed.

But private property rights always trump public safety, in these greedy bastards' book. Will it take a death before our public reps get onto this? It WILL happen if measures are not taken.

F3

The Durutti Column wrote: »

Yes, I heard of this. GUBOH has been telling Sispar and WCC since June 2011 and before that keeping the north pier fenced and off-limits was creating a safety hazard, and that because the site is totally permeable the only way to maximise safety is to open the north pier to the public, providing an access corridor through the site, and by removing the vast expanse of superfluous fencing they have installed.

But private property rights always trump public safety, in these greedy bastards' book. Will it take a death before our public reps get onto this? It WILL happen if measures are not taken.

This is the dreadful reality. Dear God I hope what you say DC will never happen.

Cheeky Chops

http://www.greystonesguide.ie/sisk-group-acquiring-parks-interest-in-greystones-harbour/

What on earth does this mean? Why is it being presented as good news? I'm so confused at this stage.

The Durutti Column

Cheeky Chops wrote: »

http://www.greystonesguide.ie/sisk-group-acquiring-parks-interest-in-greystones-harbour/

What on earth does this mean? Why is it being presented as good news? I'm so confused at this stage.

The full text:

SISK Group acquiring Park’s interest in Greystones Harbour

Breaking News on Greystones Harbour via Cllr Ciaran Hayden on 11th July 2012


NAMA, the SISK Group and Park Developments have reached an agreement which will result in the SISK Group acquiring Park's interest in the project and the taking on full responsibility for the Project.
One outcome of this agreement is that there will no longer be any debt owed to NAMA by Sispar in relation to the project.
Sispar is continuing to work with Wicklow County Council on delivery of the project on a phased basis.
Sispar is also currently engaging with all relevant stakeholders to the Project in order to finalise issues arising out of this agreement.

What does it mean?

Well, first of all it shows that Ciaran Hayden is still Sispar's favourite son locally and their conduit for any PR announcement they wish to make. Why he does not just put his hands up and admit to being a PR flak for developers is beyond me.

At face value, such a takeover could be useful. Park Developments is broke and Sispar hardly a going concern in any real sense. Sisk would have a better reputation, and who knows, Sisk may be more willing to deliver something to the community at last, now that it is untrammelled from the dead weight of Park. We will see.

On the other hand, where has the €46m or so owed to NAMA disappeared to? If Sisk/Park have not paid it back, then NAMA has big questions to answer about what is, under its remit, a public asset to be protected and recovered for the taxpayer.

However, given the lies, deception, obfuscation and bad faith which regularly come our way from Sispar, we need a lot more than Ciaran Hayden's say-so to find any good news in this.

Annasopra

I'm really confused. I don't understand how sisk, sispar, nama and park are involved. Could someone explain who is doing what?

The Durutti Column

mango salsa wrote: »

I'm really confused. I don't understand how sisk, sispar, nama and park are involved. Could someone explain who is doing what?

Sispar owed about €46m to AIB when NAMA was set up and took over all developer loans above €20m.

Sispar is a joint venture SPV between Sisk and Park Developments.

Park is under severe financial pressure even if its boss is not and can swan about the Caribbean on his yacht. Park most likely cannot discharge its obligations under the JV agreement governing Sispar, which includes Park Developments being 50% responsible for all debts incurred by Sispar.

Park has been a millstone to the project since the crash, while Sisk, with its more cautious approach, is financially more robust.

This is why Sisk becoming the sole private partner in this Public Private Partnership may turn out to be good news. But that depends on Sisk's intentions now that it is free of the dead weight of Park's near-insolvency.

And it does not answer the question of where has €36m of debt to the taxpayer disappeared to... if it has (my caveat re pronouncements by our resident financial expert, Cllr Hayden, applies).

MyPerfectCousin

I don't understand how Sisk buying out Park makes the Sispar debt go away. Is Sisk paying back Sispar's debts?

The Durutti Column

MyPerfectCousin wrote: »

I don't understand how Sisk buying out Park makes the Sispar debt go away. Is Sisk paying back Sispar's debts?

I would not believe the debt has gone away without some proof, especially given the source of the statement.

The debt could only go away either by Sisk taking on all of Sispar's debt and paying it back, or by it being forgiven by NAMA as part of some deal.

As the debt is basically a public asset (in accounting terms) and is guaranteed by the parent companies Sisk and Park, NAMA could call it in anytime and expect full payment. So why should they forgive it?

If NAMA have done so, I would hope our TDs would probe for some straight answers on this. €36m forgiven is €36m less for schools, special needs kids, health, and all the other services being so savagely cut. Even for TDs pay...

recedite

If the debt owed to Nama has been discharged, then Sisk must have paid it off and gained full control of the project.
Bear in mind that Sisk are primarily civil engineering, and their end of things was the harbour. Park Developments are/were house builders, and they would have been primarily in charge of building the houses and apartments. Sisk can get another house builder when the time is right.

The Durutti Column

recedite wrote: »

Sisk can get another house builder when the time is right.

Ten years? 15? 20?

All are far too long to have a derelict site and ghost harbour under our noses, where nobody can moor or dock, instead of the "world class" development touted by local pols and the developers.

Plus: "when the time is right" omits the small matter that planning permissions expire. They got their approval in 2007, so in the normal course of events their planning permission expires in 2014. As far as I'm aware, approval for alterations to the original scheme do not change that...

tennisplayer

Its a fiasco alright. Basil, relax because eventually all this worrying will drive you to an early grave. Sure you have done your best but as you intimated in an earlier post there is no way to win against all this corruption. Leave it and find a new interest.

recedite

They can re-apply for planning using the same plans when the permission runs out. If there was no reason to refuse before, there would be no particular reason to refuse next time. And we know WCC are very much in favour of the project, even if the people of Greystones aren't.

Blanchflower

It is very strange that this news is only coming from one source. There is no mention of it on any of the Sisk, Park, Wicklow Co Co or NAMA websites. I think I'll be a Doubting Thomas for the moment.

However it would not surprise me at all if Park Development have now been taken out of the picture for obvious financial reasons. Perhaps NAMA have now forgiven monies owing by Park Developments on this - just add some more millions onto our already unsustainable national debt.

However as Sisks do not engage in speculative developments such as apartment blocks that nobody wants it would surprise me if they now took it over now. They were never going to build the apartment blocks on the reclaimed land. It looks like they have been left carrying the can for the insolvent Park Developments company and were forced into this.

The project (and Sispar) is not a going concern and the crazy income projections in the original business plan prepared during the Celtic property bubble era are now impossible to achieve. I cannot see how Sisks can possibly recover even a fraction of their costs let alone make a profit for their shareholders.

In the meantime Wicklow County Council bend over backwards to ensure that Sisks are allowed to leave the harbour area in a horrible mess for years and years to come. They have even released a €5 million performance bond despite the unfinished state of the place.

Kevin Moore, Senior Planning Inspector, of An Bord Pleanala stated in his report dated March, 2012 the following:

what should be pursued is a definite plan of down-scaling the development being pursued to seek to realistically achieve what is viable within the next five years and putting in place the arrangements that need to erode the blight caused by a building site that is not going to be a viable proposition for development into the foreseeable future, and hopefully with the intend of improving the state of the existing public realm.

The Durutti Column

tennisplayer wrote: »

Its a fiasco alright. Basil, relax because eventually all this worrying will drive you to an early grave. Sure you have done your best but as you intimated in an earlier post there is no way to win against all this corruption. Leave it and find a new interest.

Who?

The Durutti Column

recedite wrote: »

If the debt owed to Nama has been discharged, then Sisk must have paid it off and gained full control of the project.

Not quite true. Nama could have forgiven part or all.

Recall, Paraic Keogh of Sispar (on the board in his role as a regional director of Sisk) has been saying for around a year that the company was "in negotiations" with Nama. GUBOH was saying Sispar's application for funding had been refused. That's probably true, but forgiving part or all of the debt would have much the same effect and justify Sisk raising new funding by other means.

Then the question is, What happened to the public interest in recovering this money? Can Nama justify handing it over to this private entity?

Fiachra2

mango salsa wrote: »

I'm really confused. I don't understand how sisk, sispar, nama and park are involved. Could someone explain who is doing what?

As of December 2010 Sisk and Park jointly and severally owed NAMA €38M and that figure has proabably gone up a bit since. Park, by all accounts are as good as insolvent so Sisk were on the hook for full debt. Therefore they struck a deal with Nama. (Who would have taken the debt from AIB at well below its value of €38m and so could afford to do a deal).
Bear in mind that two TD's reported that Nama had "made an offer" to sispar back in february. It was presumed that this was in relation to the medical center. In reality it was proabably nothing to do with the medical center but to do with a settlement figure on the whole debt.
In return for discharging the debt Sisk now take ownership. It dioes leav a few questions though:
Whay is this information coming from a councillor and not WCC or the companies themselves?
Does this mean that Nama are out of the frame for the medical centre funding and if so will it be built?

Fiachra2

DONNELLY CALLS REVISED PLANS FOR GREYSTONES HARBOUR A DISGRACE
· Developer’s balance sheet prioritised over public interest
· Planning Inspector’s recommendations also ignored

Thursday, July 12, 2012 – Stephen Donnelly, Independent TD for Wicklow and East Carlow has condemned Wicklow County Council and an Bord Pleanala for expanding the Greystones Harbour scheme to 373 apartments and 1,002 parking spaces, while decreasing public parkland from 18 to 15 acres.

“By prioritising apartments over public parks, Wicklow County Council and an Bord Pleanala have shown how little concern they have for the community. This decision has been taken to make the development more commercially viable for the new developer. Throughout this process, the County Council has placed the balance sheet of the developer ahead of the wishes of the people of Greystones.

“The recommendations of Kevin Moore, an Bord Pleanala's Senior Planning Inspector were also overlooked. He said this development constituted: ‘overdevelopment of the site… and would, thereby, be contrary to the proper planning and sustainable development of the area’.

“It was announced this week that SISK has taken full responsibility over the development from Sispar. Regardless, it’s still unclear when work will begin again on the harbour. What is certain is that what will now be built will be of less benefit to the people of Greystones.”

The Durutti Column

I've a nagging feeling that I have heard Derek from Mitchell-land at it again recently, talking about our "world-class harbour and marina" which we have been waiting for "for over a hundred years".

Am I right about this?

It could be just one of my recurring nightmares.

To lay the f@cker to rest, I trawled this thread and found this from Tabnabs: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68408497&postcount=269

Originally Posted by Fiachra2

Councillor Hayden commented “The reality is that we are getting a world class maritime center in 12 short months delivered on our doorstep. This project is unrivalled in the British Isles and is being provided for the community free of charge”.

With all due respect, Councillor Hayden needs a reality check on that statement. A selection of small club houses, an average size marina, a slipway and a variety of retail (non marine related most likely), does not a world class maritime centre make.

I visited Marina Punta Faro in Italy, a large marina facility in the Northern Adriatic. Very much a destination harbour as many leisure marine harbours are in the Med. Their facilities include -

In the centre of the port, in a characteristic island, are located the sport activities, soccer, tennis courts and the swimming pool, the amphitheatre for the shows in the open air, the pub and the restaurant on the Sporting Club and the new wellness center.

Besides it is possible to found various types of services: brokers, charter service, nautical agency, Nautical equipment and clothing shops, bars and restaurants.

Now that's a world class maritime centre.

Is there even a boatyard to be built in Greystones? Drystack storage maybe?

As for unrivalled in the British Isles (where BTW?), a quick look at Port Solent marina on the south coast of England;

There is a fully serviced boat yard with storage ashore for 500 boats, 24-hour fuel, top quality showers and toilets, plus free car parking.

Patrols, CCTV and the lock, which allows 24-access to the marina, provide excellent security for Port Solent, which celebrates its 21st anniversary this year. Helpful and professional staff are around 24 hours a day to help you refuel, negotiate the lock, advise on good cruising destinations or assist with any problems.

Further services for berth holders include a free pump out, yacht brokerage, engine servicing, marine engineers, maintenance and repair specialists, sail training companies and the south coast's largest chandlery.

Just because Greystones is new doesn't make it special I'm afraid.

[/QUOTE]

I feel better already. Thank you, Tabnabs, thank you.

You have to admit, though, that Greystones has produced some world-class idiots.

Amazing how these sort of folk can get a few hundred punters to put a mark on a ballot paper for them and acquire a minor honorific that way.

Annasopra

The Durutti Column wrote: »

Amazing how these sort of folk can get a few hundred punters to put a mark on a ballot paper for them and acquire a minor honorific that way.

oh well. next time it'll be a few thousand given that town councils are going to be abolished.

Macy0161

The Durutti Column wrote: »

Amazing how these sort of folk can get a few hundred punters to put a mark on a ballot paper for them and acquire a minor honorific that way.

Similarly "world class" voters?

Maudi

The Durutti Column wrote: »

I've a nagging feeling that I have heard Derek from Mitchell-land at it again recently, talking about our "world-class harbour and marina" which we have been waiting for "for over a hundred years".

Am I right about this?

It could be just one of my recurring nightmares.

To lay the f@cker to rest, I trawled this thread and found this from Tabnabs: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68408497&postcount=269

Originally Posted by Fiachra2

Councillor Hayden commented “The reality is that we are getting a world class maritime center in 12 short months delivered on our doorstep. This project is unrivalled in the British Isles and is being provided for the community free of charge”.

With all due respect, Councillor Hayden needs a reality check on that statement. A selection of small club houses, an average size marina, a slipway and a variety of retail (non marine related most likely), does not a world class maritime centre make.

I visited Marina Punta Faro in Italy, a large marina facility in the Northern Adriatic. Very much a destination harbour as many leisure marine harbours are in the Med. Their facilities include -

In the centre of the port, in a characteristic island, are located the sport activities, soccer, tennis courts and the swimming pool, the amphitheatre for the shows in the open air, the pub and the restaurant on the Sporting Club and the new wellness center.

Besides it is possible to found various types of services: brokers, charter service, nautical agency, Nautical equipment and clothing shops, bars and restaurants.

Now that's a world class maritime centre.

Is there even a boatyard to be built in Greystones? Drystack storage maybe?

As for unrivalled in the British Isles (where BTW?), a quick look at Port Solent marina on the south coast of England;

There is a fully serviced boat yard with storage ashore for 500 boats, 24-hour fuel, top quality showers and toilets, plus free car parking.

Patrols, CCTV and the lock, which allows 24-access to the marina, provide excellent security for Port Solent, which celebrates its 21st anniversary this year. Helpful and professional staff are around 24 hours a day to help you refuel, negotiate the lock, advise on good cruising destinations or assist with any problems.

Further services for berth holders include a free pump out, yacht brokerage, engine servicing, marine engineers, maintenance and repair specialists, sail training companies and the south coast's largest chandlery.

Just because Greystones is new doesn't make it special I'm afraid.

I feel better already. Thank you, Tabnabs, thank you.

You have to admit, though, that Greystones has produced some world-class idiots.

Amazing how these sort of folk can get a few hundred punters to put a mark on a ballot paper for them and acquire a minor honorific that way.[/Quote]
a world class concrete eyesore.provided free of charge to the people of greystones...thanks...please stop giving us stuff..please..

Blanchflower

Now that NAMA has refused to fund this speculative development the BIG question is where will the spondulicks come from. Perhaps Sisks will now be seeking funding from the economic powerhouse in the far east. Their next excuse for leaving Greystones Harbour in the state of an out of bounds, abandoned building site will most likely be someone like the Triads and their Dragon Master. :eek: Perhaps an Bord Pleanala will then be getting yet another planning application from Sispar and Wicklow County Council to construct a Chinese themed village with tastefully designed pagoda style buildings and submarine naval base.:eek: Our traditional status of neutrality may be compromised by this planning decision but that woulden't stop Wicklow County Council or An Bord Pleanala. Indeed, a controversial prominent Irish politician was recently quoted as saying that "for too long Ireland has sat on the fence of neutrality with nothing to show but a hell of a sore arse!"

The Durutti Column

Blanchflower wrote: »

Indeed, a controversial prominent Irish politician was recently quoted as saying that "for too long Ireland has sat on the fence of neutrality with nothing to show but a hell of a sore arse!"

Who said that, Blanch?

I'd like to know so I can stuff a ballot box or two against them next time out.

Being saved from having to spend billions on US or Brit weps would surely be one good consequence of neutrality, no?

Or the fact that the 26 Cos remains a nuclear-free zone?

Mind you, there are some around here who would have no problem welcoming a nuclear sub to our 'world class' harbour. Oh, sh1t, I forgot. You can't moor a boat there. Buggah!!

Setun

What is the current state of the harbour area at the moment? How open is it to the public? I'm from near greystones originally but have been living abroad for the last two years, only occasionally when I'm home do I see the updates on the harbour. Am due a visit back home in the next two weeks and want to prepare my eyes for the monstrosity :P

pixbyjohn

Daddio, have a look at these links >>>
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8632585@N06/7143047079/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8632585@N06/6726810917/in/photostream/
and yesterday at the harbour here >
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8632585@N06/7574078284/