News and views on Greystones harbour and marina [SEE MODERATOR WARNING POST 1187]

Blandpebbles

loyatemu wrote: »

I was down there last week when there was a serious easterly blowing, waves were crashing very high over the rocks at the cove, but nothing was going over the harbour wall, the slope on the seaward side seemed to be doing its job.

There better be some massive waves, its part of a winter storm in Greystones.

On another note, did anyone spot the painting of a really obscure part of the old harbour in the art gallery on the main street.

10 BP points for anyone who sees it and knows where on the harbour it was.

Blanchflower

Fiachra2 wrote: »

That wasn't a serious Easterly! The conditions that will lead to wave overtopping have hardly happened at all in the last four years. However If you check the GUBOH facebook page gallery you will see a picture of what I mean.
You will also see it in a slideshow on Derek Mitchells website.

The developers themselves have acknowlegded that these conditions will occur. They have suggested that buildings in the vicinity of the walls will need to have a special bunker-like construction. However this is not enough. As many unfortunate homeowners around the country will tell you. A developers assesment of flood risk is often not adequate and when you have been flooded once insurance is problematic at best.
Put youself in the boat yard owners shoes. Would you locate out there if there was any risk of inundation by waves?

The serious easterly you refer to loyatemu was but a mere squal!

Section 1.2.3 of the EIS Flood risk assessment states......

"Overtopping of the north and south breakwater, the groyne and the marina pier will cause a flood risk in these areas. The pier and breakwater areas will be unsuitable for pedestrian or vehicle access during extreme storm events. Signage will be put up to warn the public that access is unsafe during these events.:eek:

The buildings situated in the marine areas of the development at risk of
overtopping and run-up are block M (Coastguard station), block O (club houses), and block K (bar/ISA building). These will be water compatible and of robust construction.:eek:

Wave overtopping and run-up will impact the harbour (boat storage area), the access to the Coastguard building and the club houses.:eek:

In extreme events this area will be subject to wetting of the pavements due to runupfrom waves, throughout the design life of the development.":eek:

With the increase in the intensity and frequency of extreme storm events arising from climate change together with rising sea levels the situation will get worse.:eek:

Tabnabs

Overtopping and Greystones Harbour are an interesting bedfellow - from the ABP Inspectors Report

Overtopping has been referred to by the Greystones Sailing Club. This does occur in extreme conditions. It will occur along the southern breakwater. The club buildings will also be subject to overtopping at these times however they are designed and engineered to withstand the impacts of potential overtopping with particular attention to the outer wall elements and roof areas of the single-storey buildings while the upper floor structure of the sailing club along the exposed north, south and west facades is designed against potential overtopping. It will include other protective measures such as raised cills, reinforced glazing and protective shutters.

The location for the clubhouse is essentially on the sea walls. In some conditions the club would be subjected to inundations by overtopping waves. The architects have agreed that the buildings would have to be designed and engineered to withstand the impacts of overtopping. This is not acceptable, appropriate nor sustainable.

The club insurers have informed them that the likelihood of overtopping would be likely to preclude flood cover from any insurance policy taken out on the new clubhouse. This would be a very serious matter for the club which must then be addressed by adequate provisions being included in the design phase to safeguard the clubhouse from flood damage.

Mr. F. Etchingham stated that the developers have accepted that the north and south breakwaters will be prone to severe wave overtopping during extreme storms. They also stated that physical model tests were commissioned, at the time of the original oral hearing and would be completed within 3 months. That was March 2006. In December 2006 the Greystones Protection and Development Association became aware that the modelling had been completed. The developers had stated that the modelling showed that the fundamental design of the harbour breakwaters are robust.

Due to the fact that the developers have stated that there will be serve wave overtopping it would seem that the results of modelling are essential to any appraisal of the design of the harbour. The harbour design with severe ware overtopping has potential to be very dangerous. It is unreasonable therefore not to make this information available to the public in particular and to An Bord Pleanála.

It is also apparently possible that there may be flooding of the public space during severe weather conditions.

The north and south breakwaters proposed are lower than the breakwaters at Dun Laoghaire Harbour. The east pier in Dun Laoghaire is overtopped during storm conditions.

The location of the clubhouses is exposed. It would be regularly overtopped by waves during storms. The Environmental Impact Statement concedes this point.

And my personal favourite

Wave disturbance modelling is covered in point 11. The significant wave heights in
the wave modelling in the marina were 0.25 metres whereas the British standard is
0.15 metres for a significant wave height in a marina.

So if the wave over topping doesn't wreck your boat, the swell in the marina will do for it...

Blanchflower

It gets even worse people.....:eek:

Section 7.3.3 "North breakwater and seawall" states........:eek:

"

Severe overtopping will take place on the north breakwater in extreme storm events. Some of this overtopping water will reach block K situated behind the breakwater.:eek:

Design implications
Overtopping rates of the magnitude shown above render the breakwater unsuitable for pedestrian or vehicle access immediately behind the parapet walls during 1- year storm events with sea level rise. The excessive overtopping has no direct effect on the operation of the breakwater during extreme weather other than to allow more water into the marina basin.:eek:

Mitigation
To inform users of the dangers of overtopping in this area, public warning signs will be placed at appropriate locations along the breakwater and seawalls. The building located behind the seawall at the north end of the marina (block K) will be vulnerable to overtopping. This building will be constructed of extremely robust construction. No doors or windows will be included facing the sea or within 20 m of the breakwater crest at ground floor level."

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

Tabnabs

That's not really worse though is it?

BTW, Dun Laoghaire's east pier becomes unusable in the same weather. And as for Howth, you ask the locals what happened to the Coast Guard 4x4 that drove down the pier in a severe storm.

What you also have to remember is that it's not just the waves, in severe storms the wind will be equally significant and the spray generated will whip across the marina and right onto the shops, businesses, apartments and cars parked in the vicinity. At least the window cleaners will be kept busy...

Fiachra2

Its worse in that -even with that information- they are still proposing to locate clubhouses on the wall. The yacht clubs in DL and howth are a safe distance from anywhere the waves or spray might go.

recedite

Common sense needs to be applied here. Nobody should walk along any seafront during an extreme storm event. That does not mean the same place is unsafe at other times.

If anyone wants to see a bunker type building capable of withstanding extreme events, take a walk down to the end of the east pier at Dun Laoghaire; the yard of the old lighthouse buildings is now publicly accessible. The roofs are made of big granite blocks, as are the walls. The buildings are derelict, presumably nothing valuable can be kept inside due to water infiltration.

It may be technically possible, using modern materials, to build a waterproof bunker structure on Greystones pier, but whether it would be economically feasible is another matter.

Blanchflower

Tabnabs wrote: »

That's not really worse though is it?

BTW, Dun Laoghaire's east pier becomes unusable in the same weather. And as for Howth, you ask the locals what happened to the Coast Guard 4x4 that drove down the pier in a severe storm.

What you also have to remember is that it's not just the waves, in severe storms the wind will be equally significant and the spray generated will whip across the marina and right onto the shops, businesses, apartments and cars parked in the vicinity. At least the window cleaners will be kept busy...

Block K is to be a ISA (Irish Sailing Association) Building and BAR!!!!:eek:

Picture the scene......huge waves overtopping the North Breakwater as tipsy punters emerge from the Block K BAR. :eek:

Also is a robust bunker style building which will be flooded by the sea a suitable location for the headquarters of the ISA?

The Durutti Column

Blanchflower wrote: »

Block K is to be a ISA (Irish Sailing Association) Building and BAR!!!!:eek:

Picture the scene......huge waves overtopping the North Breakwater as tipsy punters emerge from the Block K BAR. :eek:

Also is a robust bunker style building which will be flooded by the sea a suitable location for the headquarters of the ISA?

Are you sure it's the Irish Sailing Association?

Could be the Integrated Sispar Archives....

tennisplayer

These posts are becoming ridiculous now, you guys should stay on facebook
I am sure there is some merit in what you keep repeating in your posts but we have got your message now.

Blanchflower

The Copenhagen physical modelling tests reveal major flooding and inundation from the sea of the breakwaters during a North East gale for all to see:eek: And note that the waves outside the harbour breakwaters don't even look too big in this test!

Blandpebbles

Nice and sad to see the old harbour on George Gently on Watch tonight.

Fiachra2

It seems despite lighting the place up like a christmas tree they left a few bits out. (Actually christmas tree is the wrong expression as it implies something pleasantly lit. the consensus seems to be that the harbour is not.)


http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.greystonesguide.ie%2Fharbour-slipways-are-an-accident-waiting-to-happen%2F&h=bAQH9FM99AQF9JRTr9Idu4A_JcI6_cdaQuk92WB9DbQkWxQ

Cookie_Monster

the above article but not through facebook
http://www.greystonesguide.ie/harbour-slipways-are-an-accident-waiting-to-happen/

legrand

Whatever about slipway lighting the lighting in general is a 'great' example of how to introduce light pollution.

It appears the wall mounted lights are using CFL (okay - someone thought about that) but they act like CAR headlights - not pleasant at all. As for the street lamps - the units themselves don't look too bad (imo). Not sure but I think these may be using halogen bulbs.

Assuming no change to lighting type we can only expect things to get worse once the other parts of the development are lit up. Aside from the good decision to use CFL I wonder was the light pollution aspect considered at all.

Blandpebbles

The harbour looks fantastic lit up, both up close and from Windgates.

As for the slipways having no lights and that article... how did a lifeboat get launched back in the old days with no lighting and come to think of it how did any boat get launched when there was no slip way during construction?

A bit of perspective is needed here for sure.

Also Councillor James O'Sullivan will be using his position to chase something or other... more flim flam

Fiachra2

My original post was a bit tounge-in-cheek. I have stumbled around plenty of dark wet and slippery slips in my life and generally managed to get on and off them in reasonable order. However given the amount of lighting that was put in place they might as well have lit the slips.

There will always be differences of opinion on lighting and I would agree that the harbour does look well from Windgates (at night). But I think, whatever your taste, the colour and extent of the lighting could have been much better. Soft lighting and less of it would reduce the "ferry port" appearance. Also if you live down there, trust me, it is a huge imposition.

In addition the point about light pollution is well made. Its an issue that is largely ignored by Local Authorities in Ireland (WCC no exception) but in more enlightened societies (pardon the pun) it receives a great deal more attention.

INUTERO

I find it unreal that folk are now complaining here about lighting at the harbour some people are never ever happy and winge and moan for the sake of it,the fact is what is there is a massive improvement end of,one or two people need to get out more me thinks.End of rant.

Macy0161

Just for an additional moan and whinge for the sake of it, would it have killed them to put a few benches around the place?

Fiachra2

INUTERO wrote: »

,the fact is what is there is a massive improvement end of,.

In your opinion!

Good rant though. And good to see a new ranter! This thread needs new blood. Keep the rest of us from getting stale.

pixbyjohn

Greystones Harbour 27/11/2011 by pixbyjohn, on Flickr

vinpaul

Macy0161 wrote: »

Just for an additional moan and whinge for the sake of it, would it have killed them to put a few benches around the place?

A few benches would be great.
On a different note, how about a few litter bins. The last few times I've walked the harbour beach, I've picked up remains of cable-ties used for tying steel fencing together during the "blockade", also the odd steel clip used for same. A lot of plastic bits and pieces are blowing in from outside and there is no where to put them. I brought them home for disposal.
If each walker took the trouble to bring some piece of litter away with them we could keep the place tidy at no cost.
The chippings from the parking bays are now becoming a problem, being scattered onto the tarmac. This is caused by cars turning sharply when entering or leaving parking spots. Pedestrians could easily kick a few back as they pass at no cost to anyone and keep the place tidier at the same time.
I have seen trucks come in for rest breaks and drivers having lunch in their cabs. This is not a lay-by for truckers. They also scatter chippings onto tarmac.

The Durutti Column

vinpaul wrote: »

A few benches would be great.
On a different note, how about a few litter bins. The last few times I've walked the harbour beach, I've picked up remains of cable-ties used for tying steel fencing together during the "blockade", also the odd steel clip used for same. A lot of plastic bits and pieces are blowing in from outside and there is no where to put them. I brought them home for disposal.
If each walker took the trouble to bring some piece of litter away with them we could keep the place tidy at no cost.
The chippings from the parking bays are now becoming a problem, being scattered onto the tarmac. This is caused by cars turning sharply when entering or leaving parking spots. Pedestrians could easily kick a few back as they pass at no cost to anyone and keep the place tidier at the same time.
I have seen trucks come in for rest breaks and drivers having lunch in their cabs. This is not a lay-by for truckers. They also scatter chippings onto tarmac.

One way to deal with the migrating chippings problem is for kids to throw them into the water...

Seriously, though, I'm told Sispar were warned about this problem at a Town Council meeting but said, No, we'll do it our way. Like they were warned about other problems / were given sound advice but of course just ignored it...

Mullie

Thats my theory on the beach. With everyone throwing stones into the water from the beach area we should have a sandy, stone free beach in about 4 years.
Whanever you're down there, throw a few in!

Blandpebbles

Macy0161 wrote: »

Just for an additional moan and whinge for the sake of it, would it have killed them to put a few benches around the place?

<<snip>>

Better yet, why not sponsor a bench for the area?

F3

Why is the fact that it is now December important?

Sispar categorically stated At the last harbour liason meeting that if the Medical Centre is not started by December, it will not be built at all.

F3

F3 wrote: »

Why is the fact that it is now December important?

Sispar categorically stated At the last harbour liason meeting that if the Medical Centre is not started by December, it will not be built at all.

Well, may I be completely accurate for a moment ( no smart comments please mr moderator!) Sispar have 46 minutes to commence work on the Medical Centre. :):)

The Durutti Column

F3 wrote: »

Well, may I be completely accurate for a moment ( no smart comments please mr moderator!) Sispar have 46 minutes to commence work on the Medical Centre. :):)

The Med Centre block plus the extra dwellings approved by WCC last year are subject to a Bord Pleanala ruling on the Environmental Impact Statement which Sispar carried out.

Full details from WCC here: http://www.wicklow.ie/apps/wicklowbeta/SpecialProjects/Part10_Oct.aspx

Maybe Sispar meant December 2012? Didn't they say something about being here for 30 years? MO: five years of Sispar is more than enough — if they can do the damage they've done in 5, what would Greystones be like in 30?

F3

The question that is on my mind is, what exactly WCC stood to gain out of the Greystones Harbour PPP? I understand that the revenue stream was substantial. Very Substantial.[and the financial model was designed that way at the time of contract] So much so I strongly suspect that WCC had included this revenue stream in their projected budgets over the next number of years and to simply admit publicly that the project is a complete financial disaster has enormous consequences for WCC. i.e. they would come under pressure to cut back on Civil Servant staffing levels.[do I recall a county manager stating 'its the only game in town' [this has taken on a new meaning in my minds eye] It would seem that the theory is to bury ones head in the sand and "keep kicking the tin can down the road". Maybe its not Sispar that are desperately trying to keep this white elephant alive but WCC! It does raise a serious question however, about who is independently administering this contract and safe guarding the People of Greystones? We have seen Sispar as the big bad speculator that refuses to lie down, but my thinking now is that they could be caught between a rock and a hard place and that the real 'nasty' is WCC. The problem here [as it has been always in this country] is one of transparency.

tennisplayer

Hi Guys, How about trying to get into the spirit of the Festive season now that December is here and give up the negative attitude and comments. A truce would be nice at least until after the new year. All your comments upto now have been repeatedly negative and going round and round. Please call it a day for now and get out and enjoy life, don't let Sispar or the Council turn you into sour old men.
Have a happy Christmas everyone.
TP.