Are lgbt identities explored in the school curriculum?

Filan

They weren't during my day but I left school in 96, has that changed?.

number10a

I doubt it. I'm guessing you don't remember that small niggling fact that most schools in this country are run by that Roman institution that isn't too gone on LGBT matters to begin with. I left school in 2005, there were no LGBT issues being dealt with then and our religion teacher in Leaving Cert tried to teach us how not to use a condom (i.e. the rythm method) for proper married sex of course.

Iwasfrozen

Filan wrote: »

They weren't during my day but I left school in 96, has that changed?.

I'm a leaving Cert student so no, they aren't.

mobius42

They should be though, as the Dept. of Education just released a document on the teaching of LGBT issues in secondary schools.

http://www.glen.ie/education/pdfs/Guidance%20for%20School%20Leaders.pdf

Filan

I'm really disappointed at that, I'm actually a qualified albeit non practicing teacher and really thought the curriculum would have evolved with the rest of society.....

jady88

They weren't addressed in my school under the sex-ed class... if you could call it that. We did get a mention in history and English though. I finished secondary school in 06, to be honest I'm not sure how comfortable I would have been with homosexual themes in sex-ed... especially since in our school sex-ed was all taught according to "Catholic principles"....

mobius42

It's a disgrace that they don't address LGBT issues in some form in secondary schools. If they had in my school, it would have made such a difference for me.

cotwold

jady88 wrote: »

I would have been with homosexual themes in sex-ed... especially since in our school sex-ed was all taught according to "Catholic principles"....

Janey Mac! Catholic principles? Now that is an anachronism. I went to a fairly strict Catholic school and our sex ed was pretty good. Covered by the school in seminar type lectures when we were in first year and then we had sphe (social personal helath education) till third year which went over it all again. Gay sex wasnt adressed till 6th year tho when our biology teacher talked to us about it from a disease angle.

mobius42 wrote: »

It's a disgrace that they don't address LGBT issues in some form in secondary schools. If they had in my school, it would have made such a difference for me.

Yeah i think it would help every lgbt youth. I was talking to a friend studying primary teaching and she was saying its covered as part of some relationship workshops, can anyone confirm that?

Sorry

I remember some of the LGBT themes discussed when I was in sixth class. Our teacher told us Freddie Mercury and Kenny Everett died from being gay. And also that women only become lesbians after being mistreated by men. Bloated old windbag, I hated her so much.

cotwold

That sounds terrible but the lesbian comment totally deserves a lol.:pac:

Nebit

our school didn't teach us sex-ed at all! nothing was ever said!! thank feck for porn < that wasn't meant to sound bad btw. but seriously our school was run by the nuns, they only got used to the idea it was a mixed school!
and it was the first mixed school in ireland ffs!

jady88

cotwold wrote: »

Janey Mac! Catholic principles? Now that is an anachronism.

Well thats what our teacher said as she blushed...

cotwold wrote: »

I went to a well known private s.Dub Catholic school and our sex ed was pretty good.

What an unnecessary addition...

cotwold wrote: »

Gay sex wasnt adressed till 6th year tho when our biology teacher talked to us about it from a disease angle.

How positive... (no pun intended)

Aard

cotwold wrote: »

Gay sex wasnt adressed till 6th year tho when our biology teacher talked to us about it from a disease angle.

Same here. Cue half the class turning around to look at me when the teacher mentions "anal sex".

shoegirl

Sorry wrote: »

I remember some of the LGBT themes discussed when I was in sixth class. Our teacher told us Freddie Mercury and Kenny Everett died from being gay. And also that women only become lesbians after being mistreated by men. Bloated old windbag, I hated her so much.

Oh dear. I recall when I was at primary school, which was just after Rock Hudson's passing, that adults at home and school would switch station or turn off the radio if anything came on about his passing or HIV in front of us kids.

I think schools are issued guidelines but effectively can evade actually giving a secular non-homophobic viewpoint by exercising their right to educate according to their "ethos." Of course most teachers I know are a relatively conservative lot over here, and most I know would be deeply embarrassed mentioning it at all.

cotwold

jady88 wrote: »

What an unnecessary addition...

On the contrary, i take it you're not from dublin. The only reason i say it is because the church has more of a sway in private schools and their teaching practices. ive edited it though to ease up confusion.

jady88

cotwold wrote: »

On the contrary, i take it you're not from dublin. The only reason i say it is because the church has more of a sway in private schools and their teaching practices. ive edited it though to ease up confusion.

Em there are private schools outside of dublin... Taking your comment together with your location I'd estimate I have a few friends from your old school... the internet makes the world a lot smaller!

sierraecho

I do remember in religion class (of all classes) there was a small bit covered on it but not really enough to say its was explored in the school curriculum.

cotwold

jady88 wrote: »

Em there are private schools outside of dublin...

Again missing the point jady, I was explaining how relatively liberal sex ed in my school was despite being in a highly conservative and quite religious environment.

jady88 wrote: »

I'd estimate I have a few friends from your old school.

Now that was an "unnecessary addition...":pac:

jady88

cotwold wrote: »

Again missing the point jady, I was explaining how relatively liberal sex ed in my school was despite being in a highly conservative and quite religious environment.

No not missing the point just trying to point out that despite not being from dublin did not mean I wasn't aware of private schools

cotwold wrote: »

Now that was an "unnecessary addition...":pac:

I was just trying to point out that I am aware of what it is like in south dublin private schools... since you pointed out that you went to a "well known" one...

philologos

mobius42 wrote: »

They should be though, as the Dept. of Education just released a document on the teaching of LGBT issues in secondary schools.

http://www.glen.ie/education/pdfs/Guidance%20for%20School%20Leaders.pdf

Having flicked through that document it concerns how to deal with students who are gay, lesbian or bisexual and how to help them in situations where they may be experiencing homophobic bullying. That of course is entirely reasonable. It also goes into the diversity of different family structures that people should be aware of. Again, fair enough.

If they did teach about LGBT structures in schools, I would expect an impartial assessment rather than one that panders to either viewpoint on the matter. Particularly in relation to the concept of family, and the concept of marriage.

This is an example of how it shouldn't be done:

Sorry wrote:

I remember some of the LGBT themes discussed when I was in sixth class. Our teacher told us Freddie Mercury and Kenny Everett died from being gay. And also that women only become lesbians after being mistreated by men. Bloated old windbag, I hated her so much.

The same applies to the other side of course.

cotswold wrote:

On the contrary, i take it you're not from dublin. The only reason i say it is because the church has more of a sway in private schools and their teaching practices. ive edited it though to ease up confusion.

It depends on the religious ethos of said school. The school I went to was of a CoI ethos and rather liberal on the subject.

Aard

Tbh, I wouldn't like to go all affirmative-action on it, and start teaches kids that "it's OK to be gay". :rolleyes: Rather, I'd be happy with a couple of safe-sex classes. Condoms, lube, STDs, that kind of thing. And yes, teach about anal sex ffs - it's not just the gay kids that do it!

cotwold

Aard wrote: »

Tbh, I wouldn't like to go all affirmative-action on it, and start teaches kids that "it's OK to be gay". :rolleyes: Rather, I'd be happy with a couple of safe-sex classes. Condoms, lube, STDs, that kind of thing. And yes, teach about anal sex ffs - it's not just the gay kids that do it!

I have to disagree i think it should be covered but at a younger age, junior or senior infants. Kids should be taught at these ages about the different kind of relationship adults have as well as sex ed.

Aard

I think we're getting our lines crossed: I was referring to the sex-ed side of things; I doubt you think senior infants kids should be taught about sex!


My "It's OK to be gay" comment was in regard to teaching a group of teenagers. I agree, young kids should be aware of the many different types of families out there.

Aoifums

Nothing has ever been said. I'm a 5th year and apart from my religion teacher's horrible comments, nothing has ever been mentioned.

Ffs though, we haven't even had sex ed in secondary. We got a puberty talk in primary and then covered the biological aspect in Biology and Home Ec. Everything else came from parents/google/porn.
We did have a pregnant second year last year. And they wondered how that happened :rolleyes:

jady88

In my primary school the class above us got a sex ed talk when they were in 6th class apparently it was very embarrassing... however when we were in 6th class the teacher walked in after secretly listening to us discussing sex on our break and screamed at the top of her voice with tears in her eyes "We were going to give you a sex ed class but it seems you don't need it!" before running out again.:)

I'm not sure how effective sex ed can be nowadays.

Fad

I never got any sex ed in school........

I think the basics need to be overhauled before people start pushing for the inclusion of lgbt content (This probably seems harsher than I intend, but I'm in a hurry!)

KnifeWRENCH

We had a couple of SPHE classes but it wasn't until third year, and all we pretty much learned about was "where babies come from" :rolleyes: Sex was assumed to be between men and women. On the plus side, we never had "sex is bad, abstinence is the only answer" or any anti-LGBT crap thrown at us.

In 6th year our Biology teacher went on maternity leave and a young subsititue in her early 20's was teaching us. She was shocked that we never had any sex ed and spent a class talking to us about it. By that time, everyone had pretty much figured everything out themselves anyway, but it was still good to get some bit of conversation going. (She made a brief reference to anal sex, but the thing I most remember arising from that discussion was the rumour that some people use empty crisp packets as condoms! )

There was never any LGBT issues raised anywhere; at the same time I don't think homophobia was a big issue in my school, so it didn't strike me as odd at the time. There should definitely be reference and exploration of LGBT identities, but the standard of sex ed in Irish schools seems quite poor anyway (pretty sure this came up in C&H at some point) so lack of LGBT issues isn't the only deficiency of the current system.

philologos

KnifeWRENCH wrote: »

On the plus side, we never had abstinence or anti-LGBT crap thrown at us.

Dealing with the text in bold alone, I don't see how that is positive in the slightest. In any sex-ed course, abstinence should always be put across as the most effective way of ensuring against catching STD's or teen pregnancy. Contraception methods should also be taught, but it's plainly wrong to leave out something as important as abstinence and indeed what differing people feel about it. Waiting until one has a structured relationship and being monogamous seems the most logical thing to teach.

KnifeWRENCH

Sorry, didn't explain myself too well. I meant teaching abstinence as the only form of sex ed. (i.e. sex before marriage is wrong because you'll get pregnant and die, etc...)

Will edit my post.

hot2def

Jakkass wrote: »

In any sex-ed course, abstinence should always be put across as the most effective way of ensuring against catching STD's or teen pregnancy.

They should also mention that homosexual sex is completely teen pregnancy proof as well....I mean, while we are talking agendas...

philologos

hot2def wrote: »

They should also mention that homosexual sex is completely teen pregnancy proof as well....I mean, while we are talking agendas...

I would have thought that was obvious. I have no issue teaching about LGBT sexuality in the classroom at about 6th class age. What could also be improved is a discussion of the common arguments of why people hold issue with premarital sex, and the counterargument. Likewise why people hold issue with LGBT sexuality and the counterargument. It would allow people to hear both sides and make up their mind more effectively.

I also think people should know how exactly abortions are carried out.

Nevyn

Sex education is badly handled in most school and it's a topic most parents are awkward about around thier kids.

The crisis pregnancy agency did take the time to do research and produce booklets and a dvd but due to the ethos of the majority of schools they can not be distrubed but they can be gotten on line or posted to parents for free.
http://www.crisispregnancy.ie/parentresource.html


I do they they are hetrocentric, there seems to be a fear of telling kids about anything other then that co they may get strange notions in thier heads.

Personally I was open about it from the start with my two, and thier attitude is reflected to thier class mates and they refuse to be riled or consider it a slur and challege people who try that.

They know that I will love them no matter who they grow up and want to kiss be it
boy, girls, boys and girls.

Fad

Jakkass wrote: »

I also think people should know how exactly abortions are carried out.

If that is going to be taught, all the procedures should be explained, not just the conveniently horrific ones

It has a long way to go before anything LGBT related will be mentioned.

KnifeWRENCH

Fad wrote: »

If that is going to be taught, all the procedures should be explained, not just the conveniently horrific ones

+1.

I've heard students from other schools saying they were shown an abortion video at school, but we were never shown it. I don't think the word was ever even mentioned in any class.

Spark Boy

Are you kinding me?? LGBT the letters alone were never uttered once during my second level education. The only use of the word homosexual was in history class when we were told that hitler tried to irradicate them (too which there was a snigger n the class (from the obvious **** stirrers))..that was it. as for sexual education obviuosly its a good thing but how helpful is it to LGBT students??? Times are moving too slowly and until the church is removed fully from influencing educational policies all young LGBT pupils will be basically non existent in the eyes of the school:(

Buceph

It's a bit shocking reading what most of you posted, but I have to say my school, or at least the teacher we had was very progressive. It was an all boys private Catholic school in Cork. In third year the science teacher said that for a month or two one of our free classes would be taken up by something outside the curriculum. So he conducted sex ed classes for about two months.

A lot of it was basic biology, going over puberty, menstruation, pregnancy and that kind of thing. Then we dealt with relationships, and how that relates to sex. They basically tried to tell us to think clearly about what we want to do, and how sex shouldn't be a simple mechanical thing (although I'm not too sure on that.) Then he went on to say that in the class of thirty chances were that at least one of us was gay (still don't know who it was, but I have met people from other years who came out in University.) And then he went on to say that chances are at least one person in the school is transgendered. After that he spoke about how he knows a few graduated students who are gay and one who is now a women. All of this was dealt with matter of factly, simply saying this exists and that chances are we will have to deal with it over the course of our life. Then we had a discussion about how we would deal with it if one of our friends were gay. Progressing to how we would deal with it if we saw them kiss another guy, before asking how we'd deal with seeing two men holding hands on the street. I thought it was a good way of dealing with it all, and because it started out quite scientifically it stayed fairly mature.

I have no idea if the entirety of his teaching was sanctioned by the school or if he just glossed over the details with the Christian Brothers on the board, but every class had the same education on it.

Aard

That's great to read, Buceph. I wish more schools were as pro-active.

Lo_Ha

Not a bit of it.
A good friend tried to put up a poster, a belong2 one I think, one of those "she's gay and i'm okay with that" kind of things and she was forbidden because its a catholic school.

Infact the only times it was brought up, in my memory was when two teachers said they hoped we would have boyfriends not girlfriends and in english when studying lesbian poets and the merchaint of venice.

Sad state of affairs.

almostnever

No,they're not.
I'm repeating my Leaving Cert this year and I'm attending an all boys' school (I'm a girl.) Last year in my all girls' school anything LGBT related was addressed at all. This year...whoa.
Lets just say that the Debs is in January and the boys aren't allowed to take lads (even as friends) and us girls can't take our female friends. Because "this is a Catholic school with a Catholic ethos." Which to me makes no sense,but whatever. I think that says a fair bit about the school's attitude and what a fight they'd put up against improved sex education :rolleyes:
I don't think it's going to happen anytime soon,which is a great shame.

philologos

almostnever wrote: »

Because "this is a Catholic school with a Catholic ethos." Which to me makes no sense,but whatever. I think that says a fair bit about the school's attitude and what a fight they'd put up against improved sex education :rolleyes:

Logically it does make sense. Homosexuality is considered to be sinful in Catholicism and in many other Christian denominations, as such if they want to keep a Roman Catholic ethos, I can understand why that is the case.

BUT (the big but)

I think it is better that LGBT identities should be taught, but in an entirely neutral manner with no liberal bias chucked in.

Iwasfrozen

Jakkass wrote: »

I think it is better that LGBT identities should be taught, but in an entirely neutral manner with no liberal bias chucked in.

But that's where the problem lies.
It's nearly impossible to teach about Homosexuality without being liberally biased

mobius42

Jakkass wrote: »

I think it is better that LGBT identities should be taught, but in an entirely neutral manner with no liberal bias chucked in.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

But that's where the problem lies.
It's nearly impossible to teach about Homosexuality without being liberally biased

Reality has a well known liberal bias.
:P

Iwasfrozen

mobius42 wrote: »

Reality has a well known liberal bias.
:P

Wow, what a good come back, you sure showed me.

mobius42

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Wow, what a good come back, you sure showed me.

Sheesh, it was just a joke.:rolleyes:

Iwasfrozen

mobius42 wrote: »

Sheesh, it was just a joke.:rolleyes:

Someone doesn't recognise sarcasm without a smily face.

Annasopra

Jakkass wrote: »

I think it is better that LGBT identities should be taught, but in an entirely neutral manner with no liberal bias chucked in.

Neutral how? I'd like to understand more of what you are suggesting

philologos

Johnnymcg wrote: »

Neutral how? I'd like to understand more of what you are suggesting

The school is a place of education, not a place for advocacy. That can be done on the street.

If it is taught in a matter a fact manner:
There are people who differ in sexual orientation to others. A community has been formed around this concept and it is a worldwide movement. etc etc

Moving on to discuss the history of LGBT orientation from decriminalisation, Stonewall riots to the present.

Discussing how LGBT sexuality expresses itself.

Bring in the debate over the ethical issues surrounding homosexuality from religious sources, secular sources, and anything else that is necessary, and then allow the students to decide for themselves rather than shoving an agenda on them.

Lame Lantern

Jakkass wrote: »

Bring in the debate over the ethical issues surrounding homosexuality from religious sources, secular sources, and anything else that is necessary, and then allow the students to decide for themselves rather than shoving an agenda on them.

Yeah, it was ludicrous when those equal protection, miscegenation-huggers started shoving their anti-hatred agendas down the throats of schoolchildren without providing a voice in schools for esoteric, arbitrarily acquired ideologies like religion or general, unintelligent dislike. Just look what happened there.

Iwasfrozen

Lame Lantern wrote: »

Yeah, it was ludicrous when those equal protection, miscegenation-huggers started shoving their anti-hatred agendas down the throats of schoolchildren without providing a voice in schools for esoteric, arbitrarily acquired ideologies like religion or general, unintelligent dislike. Just look what happened there.

I often find it funny how so called liberals refuse to accept any other opinion then their own. The concerns Jakkass posted are shared by a great many people and deserve to be given weight.
I am personally an Atheist but I recognise the great work the different religious movements do with regards to lobbying for the prevention of the civil rights bill.
It seems religious belifes have become an easy target on this forum, which is a shame.

Lame Lantern

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I often find it funny how so called liberals refuse to accept any other opinion then their own. The concerns Jakkass posted are shared by a great many people and deserve to be given weight.
I am personally an Atheist but I recognise the great work the different religious movements do with regards to lobbying for the prevention of the civil rights bill.
It seems religious belifes have become an easy target on this forum, which is a shame.

The difficulty lies not with religious belief but with the insistence that religious belief should be afforded a voice in a public education. Religious views on homosexuality are demonstrably wrong: that is my opinion. Religious opinions on homosexuality should not be afforded a weight in the classroom alongside fact: that is a moral imperative if we live in a society where church and state are to remain seperate.

Presenting religious opposition in the classroom in the form of "some religious institutions object to LGBT rights on esoteric grounds" is fine, as is discussing homophobia. However, stating that "religious institutions have identified the following moral issues with homosexuality that need to be taken seriously" would be a crazy invasion of education by the church.

The comparison I made earlier still stands. In a civics class in the US it would not be tolerated for students to be taught about religious claims as to the dangers of miscegenation. Homophobia should not be normalised in schools just as opposition to civil rights more generally should not be either.

You can preach hatred in Sunday schools if you wish, but let's not pretend the dislike of LGBT people is based on anything but an arbitrarily accepted ideology (in the form of religion, white supremacy, whatever) no matter how ubiquitous homophobic opinion might be.

Nebit

y does it always have to turn to religion :rolleyes:

LGBT is an issue to be dealt within civics class
Religious views are issues to be dealt within religion class

you can talk about church oppositions in religion class where it would be understandable that the church will say its bad mkay but h8 the sin not the sinner.

But LGBT has to be taught in a liberal atmosphere so people can properly be taught tolerance.