Shock Collars

Whispered

I just wanted peoples opinions on this. Are they cruel? Is it ok to use them in certain circumstances? Is it ever a good idea to train your dog through pain?

I know of one woman who got one as her dog was misbehaving (barking) she out it on, dog barked, got a shock and emptied his bowels on the floor. How someone can say it is not cruel when seeing something like that is beyond me.

Personally I don't agree with them, and it saddens me to see them recommended as a training aid.

What do the rest of you think?

Ruu_Old

Never heard of them used for problems like barking, seems madness to me. Why not try to figure out why the dog is barking? Is he/she hungry, bored, upset, something else? My brother has one but it is just around the boundary (wire goes around the area) of his property to stop the dog going out onto the road or into the field of cattle.

Mollywolly

Seems barbaric to me and I can't imagine a time when I would ever consider using one. It's never a good idea to train a dog using threats/pain, or at least that's what I've always been told.

Sigma Force

Bark collars are cruel, dogs bark birds fly fish swim.
If a dog is barking non stop then owners should deal with the bones of the issue (scuse the pun).

Shock collars ie fence ones aren't ideal but a lot less painful then getting a crushed pelvis by a car and a last resort until proper fencing can be sorted but bark collars are another thing.

peasant

Never mind painful or cruel ...these things are dangerous as "training aids"

Dogs learn by association, meaning they combine sights, sounds, smells, and many other things into the learning experience. (This is also why they will perform a "trick" perfectly in your living room where you trained it and look at you with great puzzlement when you ask them to do it somewhere else where they've never done it before)

For particularly traumatic experiences the associations become very strong.

Now in theory it all sounds very dandy ...dog barks, dog gets shocked, dog shuts up.

In practice it might go one of the following ways though:

1) Dog barks ...dog gets shocked ...dog is frightened, feels it is under attack, barks even more, goes into a frenzy (until the dog drops dead from a heart attack or the shocker runs out of battery)

2) Dog barks ..dog gets shocked. But while it gets shocked a child was running past. Now the dog associates the pain not with the bark but with the running child and will hate running children from now on


These are just two simple examples for anti-barking training with shock collars ...now imagine the damage you could do while training complicated commands to your dog by means of a shock collar. Get the timing slightly wrong or create a wrong association and the dog could become totally confused and unhandleable within a few applications.

Things of the devil, they are.

roxiesmammy

Guineapigrescue wrote: »

Bark collars are cruel, dogs bark birds fly fish swim.
If a dog is barking non stop then owners should deal with the bones of the issue (scuse the pun).

Shock collars ie fence ones aren't ideal but a lot less painful then getting a crushed pelvis by a car and a last resort until proper fencing can be sorted but bark collars are another thing.

dont agree with the shock collars either. What happens if dog gets out he will prob be to scared to go through the fence again thats if the shock hasnt made him run in the opposite direction in pain. Also while the fence might stop your dog gettin out whats to stop a dog thief gettin your dog.

Jumpy

Has anyone actually tried these? They are not painful, they give you what feels like a pinch.

Its probably a surprise to the dog but there is no way I would consider the amount of shock they deliver to be cruel.

I have hurt myself more from touching a car door handle.

peasant

Jumpy wrote: »

I have hurt myself more from touching a car door handle.

Yeah ...but you didn't go and attack the next innocent bystander because of that pain ...your dog just might :pac:

smilerf

cruel no matter what the circumstances!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

9wetfckx43j5rg

Incredibly cruel, used by incredibly lazy people who don't bother to train their dog and see it as a quick fix. Can only understand possibly using them as a boundry device for a dog that lives in a very large place like a farm when it's possible they may get loose and onto a road.

There are other more humane methods lazy people can use like the lemon burster collar which sprays a burst of lemon scented air from a box on the collar. Dog dislikes it and stops barking. Can only be used in homes with one dog.

FAYESY

Ok lads - watching this thread closely as threads like this tend to get out of hand!

Also moving it to welfare!

Behave or I will be banning people!

Jumpy

peasant wrote: »

Yeah ...but you didn't go and attack the next innocent bystander because of that pain ...your dog just might :pac:

But there isnt any pain. Before you jump to conclusions on these collars put one on.
Its no taser. It causes a muscle twitch which I could definitely understand would be scary to an animal but its far from pain.
I would rather have one of these on than someone spraying citrus in my face.

Unless its satsuma, I love satsumas.

9wetfckx43j5rg

And I would much rather have citrus sprayed in my face than be electrocuted.

star-pants

Jumpy wrote: »

But there isnt any pain. Before you jump to conclusions on these collars put one on.
Its no taser. It causes a muscle twitch which I could definitely understand would be scary to an animal but its far from pain.

May I ask - would you use one on a child?

MistyCheese

Jumpy wrote: »

But there isnt any pain.
Its no taser. It causes a muscle twitch which I could definitely understand would be scary to an animal but its far from pain.

Okay, so you're not training your dog through pain, but you are training the dog through fear.

Jumpy wrote: »

I would rather have one of these on than someone spraying citrus in my face.

Well, I know I wouldn't like to get lemon juice in my eye!

aoife2k

I think bark collars are just the cruelest things you could get. However, I do have a Pet Safe Fence for my 6 month old boxer pup... She's been shocked twice and that was enough for her to learn where she can and can't go. She associates the little flags with the shock so within an hour of puttin the collar on she knew exactly where she couldn't go.

I think the good thing about it is that it does not shock straight away, there is a beep and it vibrates if she gets close, if she ventures further then it will shock (which she doesn't do!)

irish setter

there a device created to make quick results in dog training issues. in the wrong hands will do more damage than good. in the right hands they will work for someone who don't have the skill or patience to train a dog properly. in proper training the dog learns trust and respect for the handler and a proper dog / human bond is created. i can't see how an e-collar can do this

Jumpy

MistyCheese wrote: »

Okay, so you're not training your dog through pain, but you are training the dog through fear.



Well, I know I wouldn't like to get lemon juice in my eye!

I dont have a dog! I put on someone elses. I actually used to think they were cruel. I dont now.

ButterflyGirl23

Jumpy wrote: »

Has anyone actually tried these? They are not painful, they give you what feels like a pinch.

Its probably a surprise to the dog but there is no way I would consider the amount of shock they deliver to be cruel.

I have hurt myself more from touching a car door handle.

Probably a surprise?? Em no it is painful for the dog. I did a dog training course and we learnt how cruel these collars are and no decent dog trainer or dog owner would use them.

Also I would never spray a dog with citrus, that is very cruel. I deal with difficult dogs all the time and by remaining patient with them and using positive ways to rehabiliate them I got their unwanted behaviour to stop.

Discodog

I do not believe that it is clear cut. I know of many dogs who enjoy a lot of freedom due to electronic fences. I can think of one friend who has 4 setters that charge across the lawn to greet visitors & then stop in a perfect line - where the wire is buried. They never get a shock because they know where the boundary is.

I know of a dog that had a history of chasing livestock. Three different "trainers" including one TV celeb were paid a fortune with no effect. In desperation they resorted to a radio controlled shock collar & the dog can now be walked through a field of sheep off lead. The dog received two shocks in total.

I also know of several sight-hounds that could never be let off lead that now enjoy off lead walks every day.

jimmyn

I wasn't going to reply to this thread in the hope that it would die the death it deserves. But there's no sign of that, so here's my opinion (not that you're interested).

I find it interesting that the only people who will defend the use of an ecollar are also the only people who have any experience with them. Everyone else is giving an ignorant, emotionally charged "opinion" based on nothing more than their own "Oh no - think of the children!" bullsh1t hysteria.

I went to a lot of trouble in a recent thread to explain to helena.ryan (OP) and her ilk how these tools are properly used, and how they are not in any way cruel. How they effectively and clearly communicate to a dog what is expected, without causing pain or distress. I posted links to videos to show them being used in the proper manner. Those videos show the dogs enjoying their training. This is precisely how it was with my dog.

But now I realise my mistake. These people aren't interested in explanations. They don't want to be educated about these tools or how they work. They're not really asking questions. They just want to sit behind their keyboard, posting their "opinions" (based on nothing) and indulging in the <censored> that is the Animal Welfare forum.

I did a dog training course and we learnt how cruel these collars are and no decent dog trainer or dog owner would use them.

What dog training course was that? Obviously not one that had any experience with these collars, but still felt qualified to lecture on them. And by the way, almost all top competitive working dog trainers use these collars. Any that work in the real world that is. Schutzhund, field trials, sheep trials, even SAR. So how are you defining "decent dog trainer"?

Look, I was against these things in principle when I started out. But the dog training course I did opened my mind. I got to see, feel and use ecollars myself and it became very obvious that these things are not cruel. I used it on myself before I would ever let it near my dog, and that experience changed my mind completely. I now understand that ecollars are a very effective and humane tool when used properly. I still wouldn't like to see them sold to anybody willy-nilly. Used improperly, they have the potential to be cruel, but with training, they are a fantastic tool.

Oh, and please stop calling them "shock collars". It gives the wrong impression of the level of stim used. No, "stim" is not a euphemism. It's a mild use of electric static charge to stimulate nerves - like a physiotherapist's TENS machine. It's not an electric shock. These things are NOT Tasers.

In fact, did it ever occur to you that propagating these "shock collar" myths are probably the cause of the problem you are fighting against? There is so much "information" on the net from people like you about how these things are used that untrained people just assume that you're supposed to shock the crap out of your dog. So out they go, buy an ecollar, put it on their dog, turn it up and wait for him to do something wrong. Then blast the head off him. That is abuse and cruelty and it is your fault. You refuse to let clear, informed heads get the right information out there. If the correct information was widespread on the web, it would be easy for people to find out how to use ecollars properly. But for as long as you <snip> propagate all this crap, people will assume that "shock collars" are for "shocking" your dog when he misbehaves.

If you don't like ecollars, fine. Don't use them. Stick to your puppy training. But don't spout <snip> about things you know nothing about, and don't go slandering those of use that do use them effectively and humanely.

Discodog

As with most animal welfare issues there can never be a perfect answer. The problem is that the welfare community tend to react with emotion & that is often not in the best interest of the specific animal or animals in general. This causes polarisation & extreme views that can damage animal welfare.

Spaying is a classic example of where their are valid veterinary arguments for & against it. Zoo's are another example that polarise welfare groups. Clearly some zoo's should be shut but others do invaluable conservation work & research. The key factor is quality of life.

As Jimmyn has said the problem is when the wrong people use the wrong equipment the wrong way. Installing an electronic fence & training an animal to use it involves a lot of care. If it is done properly the dog will understand the pre-warning that the device gives.

Out of interest I spoke to an old friend who rehabilitates ex racing Greyhounds for rehoming. He is slated by the Greyhound rescue community for using electronic collars but the majority of dogs that he rehomes can safely be allowed off-lead. What is best for the dogs ?. Will a rehomed Greyhound be better being never let off lead or would it rather receive a few mild shocks & then have a life off lead ?.

If an electronic collar is used properly the animal should only ever receive a few shocks before it recognises the warning tone. I think that some people are under the misimpression that the dog is constantly getting shocked. The real problem is that ignorant people can buy an electronic collar & use it incorrectly.

I would urge anyone considering animal welfare issues to be open minded & consider both sides of any argument. Think about what is in the long term best interest of the animal not the emotional feeling of the human.

Whispered

jimmyn wrote: »

I went to a lot of trouble in a recent thread to explain to helena.ryan (OP) and her ilk how these tools are properly used,.

And my Ilk? Please do explain.

jimmyn wrote: »

How they effectively and clearly communicate to a dog what is expected, without causing pain or distress.

If used properly perhaps, but to hear of someone putting a collar on a dog to prevent barking, and the dog being so scared, a perfectly housetrained pet goes to the toilet in the house (it was described more dramatically to me, but you don't need details).

jimmyn wrote: »

But now I realise my mistake. These people aren't interested in explanations. They don't want to be educated about these tools or how they work. They're not really asking questions. They just want to sit behind their keyboard, posting their "opinions" (based on nothing) and indulging in the censored..

These people? You mean people who just wont take your word for it and want an actual discussion? There has been no slander in this or the other thread. Except for from you. As for opinions based on nothing, you don't know people on this forum or what their opinions are based on.

jimmyn wrote: »

Look, I was against these things in principle when I started out. But the dog training course I did opened my mind. I got to see, feel and use ecollars myself and it became very obvious that these things are not cruel. I used it on myself before I would ever let it near my dog, and that experience changed my mind completely. I now understand that ecollars are a very effective and humane tool when used properly. I still wouldn't like to see them sold to anybody willy-nilly. Used improperly, they have the potential to be cruel, but with training, they are a fantastic tool.

.

Fair play for using it on yourself. Most people dont bother. However, the problem begins when you have people recommend them for problems like barking. "Your dog barks - go buy a collar, that will sort them out" type stupidity. Which, even by your own post, you mustn't agree with. It's important to address WHY a shock collar should be used. For training, I don't understand negative reinforcement at all. It has never worked on any dog I've ever had experience with. For safety, a different matter, but still, not ideal. You have a responsibility to your pet to keep them safe, if this means a shock collar when walking to prevent them bolting, then so be it. But again, for usual training? Do you think they should be used for problems like barking or jumping up?

jimmyn wrote: »

Oh, and please stop calling them "shock collars". It gives the wrong impression of the level of stim used. .

If you google shock collar, you get online shops and outdoor suppliers calling them "shock" collars.

jimmyn wrote: »

In fact, did it ever occur to you that propagating these "shock collar" myths are probably the cause of the problem you are fighting against? There is so much "information" on the net from <snip> like you about how these things are used that untrained people just assume that you're supposed to shock the crap out of your dog. .

Nice, perhaps it takes a certain type of person to recommend these "training aids"? Your post would certainly suggest so.

jimmyn wrote: »

If you don't like ecollars, fine. Don't use them. Stick to your puppy training. But don't spout <snip> about things you know nothing about, and don't go slandering those of use that do use them effectively and humanely.

Nobody slandered anybody till you came in all guns blazing making yourself look agressive.

Whispered

Discodog wrote: »

I do not believe that it is clear cut. I know of many dogs who enjoy a lot of freedom due to electronic fences. I can think of one friend who has 4 setters that charge across the lawn to greet visitors & then stop in a perfect line - where the wire is buried. They never get a shock because they know where the boundary is.

I know of a dog that had a history of chasing livestock. Three different "trainers" including one TV celeb were paid a fortune with no effect. In desperation they resorted to a radio controlled shock collar & the dog can now be walked through a field of sheep off lead. The dog received two shocks in total.

I also know of several sight-hounds that could never be let off lead that now enjoy off lead walks every day.

I think it's very important to look at WHEN they should be used. You have a responsibility to your pet to keep them safe, and I believe it is very important for a dog to get walked off lead and explore. So if a shock collar prevents them from bolting, then so be it. I don't think it is ideal. But for training for things like barking/jumping up etc, I don't see how it could every be considered a good idea.

ISDW

I work mainly with siberian huskies and alaskan malamutes and won't rehome to a home that uses e fences to contain them, as most of them will take the pain and just keep running:D

However, having read jimmy and discodog's posts, I can see how there may be a place for them when used properly and under trained supervision. Again, with my breeds, I still wouldn't trust the dogs off lead even with them on, I don't know if the thick fur also hinders them or the urge to run is just too strong, but I don't think they'd work on the northern breeds.

But, discussion forums are meant, I believe, to help people to think about things in a way that maybe they hadn't considered before. And then, if you're interested in whats been discussed, to go and do proper research.

This discussion, especially jimmy and discodogs posts, have made me think and I will be looking into them further. I have used a spray collar to try and stop a dog from barking incessently, but feel that I wouldn't use an e collar for the same thing. Maybe I need to think about what difference it actually is to a dog, getting the shock of something sprayed in their face, or the shock of a buzz, or whatever on their neck.

jimmyn

Hi guys, no I didn't delete it. Haven't heard anything from the mods either.

It doesn't matter I suppose. I got through to at least 2 open-minded people who are willing to look into it further and find out the facts. Ecollars may not be for everyone, but at least make an informed decision. Leave the emotionally charged hysteria behind and as Disco said, think of the long term quality of life of the dog.

Discodog

Ok I do not want to take this off topic but for an "opposing opinion" thread to disappear raises very serious questions. Can we have an answer please from the Mods ?. PM's sent

I except that Jimmyn went on a little bit if a rant but it is seriously frustrating when people refuse to, at least, consider other opinions. This divide is one of the prime reasons why animal welfare in Ireland is so bad. People spend more time arguing with each other than fighting for animal rights. For example at the moment everyone should be lobbying to get the AWB through the Dail.

Mod edit: Do not question mod decisions on thread.

Whispered

jimmyn wrote: »

. Leave the emotionally charged hysteria behind.

yes good idea....

Whispered

jimmyn wrote: »

bullsh1t hysteria.... helena.ryan (OP) and her ilk .........But now I realise my mistake. These people aren't interested in explanations...... They just want to sit behind their keyboard, posting their "opinions" (based on nothing) and indulging in the <censored> that is the Animal Welfare forum....muppets like you ...... But for as long as you dumbasses propagate all this crap.....

this is ok to post? I asked a question - I was not at all emotive or insulting in the question, and I get this torrent of abuse back and it's ok?

Our man in Havana

The next back seat mod gets a permanent ban from here.
Report offensive posts, DO NOT RESPOND TO THEM! unless you want a ban also.

Debate in a civilised manner or you know where the door is. Understand? I think a lot of people here do not read charters or understand the rules.

I have had enough of the back seat modding and people who cannot accept criticism.

Cop on or else.

Whispered

Discodog wrote: »

This divide is one of the prime reasons why animal welfare in Ireland is so bad. People spend more time arguing with each other than fighting for animal rights.

+1 Discodog, you're always so level headed. And very right on this point IMO.

There does of course need to be some modicum of respect from both sides of any debate too.