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Shock Collars

Whispered

I just wanted peoples opinions on this. Are they cruel? Is it ok to use them in certain circumstances? Is it ever a good idea to train your dog through pain?

I know of one woman who got one as her dog was misbehaving (barking) she out it on, dog barked, got a shock and emptied his bowels on the floor. How someone can say it is not cruel when seeing something like that is beyond me.

Personally I don't agree with them, and it saddens me to see them recommended as a training aid.

What do the rest of you think?

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peasant

Paul91 wrote: »

no where in what i have read have "brute" force methods been utilized, and to be honest i am against them, but that doesn't mean the training itself is wrong

This is getting OT now, but what the heck

Of course Schutzhund trainers don't advertise their training as being done with shock collars, choke chains or other more or less brutal methods ...they'd never get any customers otherwise.

But strangely enough ...if you do a little research on t'internet into buying a "training collar" almost all sellers have some link or another to Schutzhund training. Coincidence? I think not

Schutzhund training for family dogs is a topic in itself and for another thread, really ...all i'm trying to say is that in my opnion it is pointless to train a family dog to do things that it doesn't need to know.

You can read up on tracking on the internet and get your dog to track sausage trails in your back garden, increasing the difficulty as you go along.

The old fetch game can be trained to perfection ...with stay and down inbetween

You can teach your dog unique skills (like carrying notes as above or fetching the kids for dinner) that are actually useful in your daily life.

All that you can do without competitive pressure, without a rigid one-size-fits-all training schedule and without medals at the end...and you and your dog can have endless fun while doing so and actually get to know each other better instead of having to fight each other to get the training programme worked off.

Any training session that is carried out in earnest and with dedication will be "work" to the dog ...even if it only involves you and a squeeky toy.
"Work" doesn't have to be shouts and frenzied dogs attacking other poeple wrapped in protective armour, despite what the Schutzhund people say

Paul91

peasant wrote: »

"Work" doesn't have to be shouts and frenzied dogs attacking other poeple wrapped in protective armour, despite what the Schutzhund people say

read this and come back to me

Schutzhund: Theory and Training Methods - Stewart Hilliard Susan Barwig

in the training there is no shouting or frenzied activity involved, that would be counter productive - not saying that there aren't trainers whom do that - but that isn't what the training is about

peasant

I don't need to read the book, I know what Schutzhund training is about (I grew up next to a training ground

)

But I don't want to drag this thread further OT ...it's not about Schutzhund but about shock collars.

In my opinion they are counter-productive.
- getting the dog to to things in order to avoid pain is the wrong training method
- By putting the collar on the dog it will learn that as soon as it does something wrong it will get punished ...that's what the collar is there for. That does not further co-operation, just fear. Sensitive dogs will collapse altogether ...for fear of doing something wrong they will do nothing at all.
- Clever and strong dogs on the other hand soon learn that when the collar isn't on (or that if they bear the pain for a bit and run far enough as to be out of range) they can do whatever they like and you have no command over them
- and then there is the whole danger of wrong associations as mentioned previously.

Paul91

peasant wrote: »

I don't need to read the book, I know what Schutzhund training is about (I grew up next to a training ground )

I know OT - but whereabouts? where you able to learn anything productive?

peasant

Paul91 wrote: »

I know OT - but whereabouts? where you able to learn anything productive?

In Germany... and just by watching I decided for myself that that wasn't the kind of relationship I'd like to have with my dog. Too much regimented training going on. In Schutzhund the dog is a tool (or weapon) not a companion ...in my mind anyway

peasant

jimmyn wrote: »

We were discussing traditional training methods involving compulsion. I simply listed the common tools for the job. You seem to be suggesting that positive reinforcement should be the only thing used to train a dog. I agree for a pup under 6 months, for teaching tricks etc. For off-lead control outside among distractions, you need something more. Some kind of compulsion is needed.

There's a principle in learning theory called "negative thigmotaxis". It basically means that if you push an animal, it will naturally push back to resist. So if you push a dog into a down position, it will naturally resist, and it's body and mind will be thinking "push up". Opposite from what we want. This is why +R (positive reinforcement) uses treats to "lure" the dog into position. This is fine, but +R by its nature does not include any compulsion - no real method of delivering a correction. An ecollar is the only tool capable of delivering a correction without inducing netative thigmotaxis. That may also be a factor in why dogs learn so quickly with ecollar training.

Oh ...sorry ...but what a load of semi-scientific balderdash.

Of course you need to correct your dog every bit as much as praise/reward it in order to get your message across.

But ...correction rarely has to be physical and certainly never painful.

You communicate with your dog instead. Youv'e got a voice, hands, eyes, body language ...use them to signal your approval or disapproval. If proper communications are established, your dog will learn just as well and just as fast (if not better) than with any sort of intermediate gadget.

The only difficult issue in this process is not the dog ...but our human inability to blank out our erratic emotions. Our signals are inconsistent, contradictory, coloured by our moods ...and we talk too much nonsense instead of clear, consistent instructions.

That's why we are so tempted to use training aids and gadgets. Some of them are comparatively harmless, others not so ...but all of them remove us one step from direct communication with the dog. And woe be the day when we and our dog find ourselves in a difficult situation and left the gadget at home

For what it's worth ...I object not just to shock collars ...I find solely food-reward based training or clicker training just as bad (only that the dog usually isn't in pain when using these methods).

Throw away the gadgets, learn doggy language ...talk to your dogs !

Discodog

I had left this debate & I have supported Jimmyn but I have to comment on his last post. Until now I have supported to use of e-collars for specific difficult issues like recall in a potential chase situation but:

The idea of using an e-collar to get a dog to sit is insane.
The idea of continually punishing the dog until you get the right reaction is insane.
The idea that you shock the dog until you get the right response is barbaric.
In these situations I would deem an e-collar to be cruel.

I would strenuously oppose anyone using such methods.

The sole justifiable reason for using a radio controlled e-collar is when the dog is at distance from you & will not pay attention. When the dog is on a lead or close by there is absolutely no reason to use discomfort to get correct behaviour.

I have been with dogs who have been trained for Hare Coursing who will, with training, obey most recalls. The problem comes when there is an external influence like a cat or rabbit. I have seen e-collars used successfully in these situations.

The warning tone is critical. As soon as most dogs realise that a shock (not stim !) is preceded by a tone & on good collars a vibration, they will stop running at this warning. Greyhounds are very intelligent & it seems that most only ever get one or two shocks. Now I am not happy about that but I can justify it if it means that the dog can enjoy life off lead.
I would never support giving repeated shocks.

I have suggested that e-collars should only be available to trainers but if they are using them as Jimmyn suggests then I would rather see a total ban.

I totally agree with Peasant regarding the constant need for new fads & gadgets. Give your dog masses of love & affection. Give them a reason to obey you because they want to. Yes talk to your dogs & even more importantly listen to them. They may not be able to speak but when you have good relationship with your dog you will understand most of what they are trying to say. Why should they have to make all the effort to understand us ?. Being able to understand your dog makes the relationship so much better.

EDIT: I have just had a phone conversation with an old friend who works with the RSPCA regarding legal advice. He has said that such "training" as described in Jimmyn's last post would likely constitute a criminal offence in the UK.

macshadow

jimmyn when i read your first post i thought great, someone with experience of using an e collar and can give a good account of how exactly it should be used, then you say you use it to teach a dog to sit:(
I don't have experience of the e collar only a radio fence, which has been broken about a year now, don't tell my dogs that though:D
One thing i do know 100000000000000000000000000% is that a dog should never be given a correction for not doing something it doesn't know how to do.
I just hope you made an error explaining how you use an e collar.

john p

What are the other options, Quit job stay home with dog so he does not bark, let dog bark when at work not really fair on the neighbours, or Irelands no 1 soloution take dog to the pound or to the vet to be put asleep, I use bark collar when i am out he doen not get shocked got it once or twice at first yes its not nice but my Dog is 5 years older lives a very happy life and is STILL ALIVE, and before anyone says if you cant be home with dog yo should not have a dog, That is not the real world,

Discodog

Take a few days off or a long weekend & with the help of a trainer (if you need one) find out why the dog barks & then correct it's behaviour. One possible solution is to get a second dog. It took me many years to see the benefit of two dogs & now I would never go back to one.

Two easy ways to assess how much a dog barks when you are away are a cctv camera - now really cheap or a voice activated recorder like a dictation machine. I once had a neighbour who commented that a rescue dog that I was fostering barked. The tape recorder revealed that it did for a total of 3 minutes !. If the dog is barking at outdoor noises then try leaving the radio on.

If needed I can leave my two for 12 hours in the kitchen with no mess or noise. They were both rescues that had not even been in a house until I got them. Mine never get left until they have had a 45 minute off lead walk. It means that I am up early & walking in the dark. When I get home they get another 45 minute walk. But the key is that they have each other for company.

My cctv revealed what I already knew - they sleep all day !

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