At a time where people should unite

starbelgrade

... we are doing the complete opposite. On the radio, there have been numerous texts from private sector workers b*tching about public sector pay. There have been threads on Boards saying that taxi drivers should go to hell, that homeowners who default on their loans should be made homeless, that debt defaulters get what they deserve (up to jail time in some extremes).

Yes, we are angry at the government, yes, we are angry at having less to live on, yes we are angry.

But where are we directing our anger? A lot of the time, in the wrong direction. At a time like this, we need to unite, or we will fall apart..

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

starbelgrade

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It's usually the private sector workers who b*tch about that, not the other way around.

Either way, it still doesn't help.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

starbelgrade

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I dismissed nobody. I was simply pointing out that the bitchiness exists. I don't agree with it & like you, I see it as pointless. What we need to do is get behind the common cause, which is to make this society more equal, not to feed the fat cats - it has reached the point where everyone can see that this system has failed us, that we can no longer keep going along this path.

anonymous_joe

Unite against whom and for what purpose?

THe vast majority of people don't have common goals.

A civil servant right now is probably terrified that they're wages could be cut, someone in the private sector has probably seen a reduction in wages or lost their job. They want to see the public servant lose income so as to bring down the general cost of living/existing/operating in this country. Those two perspectives are mutually exclusive.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

starbelgrade

anonymous_joe wrote: »

THe vast majority of people don't have common goals.

The vast majority do have common goals. Most people want to have food, a plave to live & then eventually, somewhere to live, someone to share it with & then reproduce, so that the cycle keeps continuing. Most of us would like to do it in some modicum of comfort.

We're in hard times & all we seem to do is fight amongst ourselves for the crumbs instead of fighting to upheave the whole political system & the whole way we rule our own society.

"The oppressed are allowed once every few years to decide which particular representatives of the oppressing class are to represent and repress them."
Karl Marx

starbelgrade

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Workers arguing amongst themselves is bitchiness. A legitimates political grievance is when you take it to the bosses... ie. the government.

A legitimate political action however, is what is required. We need to take this into our own hands & not ask the mammy state what to do. We know what has to be done. We're just afraid of piping up about it.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

That would need to be agreed amongst the workers. Yes.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

We all need to meet half way - but on our own terms and in a united voice.

ardmacha

The public sector and their unions are the Ancien Régime of Ireland—they believe that they can live parasitically off the state

The public sector do not live parasitically off the state, they contribute service to the State. Your expression is better applied to the nearly half a million who are sitting around contributing nothing, while living of the public purse.

t public-sector workers should now be willing to take a pay cut of 25–30 percent

Perhaps a quarter of public sector workers should take a pay cut as a quarter of the private sector have taken a pay cut.

magicbastarder

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

surely if you're unemployed, you're neither a public sector nor a private sector worker?

Treora

The powers that be love it when the masses are at each others throats. Most people group to defend their stand point. IBEC, FF, SIPTU, industry lobby groups. The loosers are private sector people that cannot unite to protect their position.

The powers that be love a fractured society that lives in hope of a pimped out ride that they will never get. That is much easier to control than a series of highly motivated and active groups that can act cohesively. I say this with out fear as nothing will ever happen. There are many reasons, but imagine if 60% of the people walked on the Dail. I am sure that there would be an election in 24 hours, but have no fear as we live in a mé fein constituency.

magicbastarder

starbelgrade wrote: »

We need to take this into our own hands & not ask the mammy state what to do. We know what has to be done. We're just afraid of piping up about it.

what sort of action are you talking about?

starbelgrade

magicbastarder wrote: »

what sort of action are you talking about?

1. Education
2. Unity
3. Revolution


"The worker of the world has nothing to lose, but their chains, workers of the world unite."
Karl Marx

SkepticOne

Do people really think that if private sector workers become militant unionists like public sector workers, their position will become more secure?

If you work in an exporting business your security comes from the products your company produces appealing to an international market. How does striking for higher pay help make the company's products more attractive?

Only in state monopolies does militancy work for the workers since there is no danger of the public-sector organisation folding and the public have no choice but to give in to demands if they want services.

SkepticOne

starbelgrade wrote: »

1. Education
2. Unity
3. Revolution

4. Secret police.
5. Gulag concentration camps.

jimmycrackcorm

ardmacha wrote: »

The public sector do not live parasitically off the state, they contribute service to the State. Your expression is better applied to the nearly half a million who are sitting around contributing nothing, while living of the public purse.



Perhaps a quarter of public sector workers should take a pay cut as a quarter of the private sector have taken a pay cut.

Doesn't quite work like that - the private secotr have taken a pay-cut where their employer cannot afford to pay them - hence as the state cannot afford to pay our public sector they must take a cut to match what can be paid.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

ei.sdraob

starbelgrade wrote: »

1. Education
2. Unity
3. Revolution


"The worker of the world has nothing to lose, but their chains, workers of the world unite."
Karl Marx

been there done that


communism and socialism is not the answer, neither is unfettered capitalism the solution

socialism (most generous welfare system and guaranteed generous public work) is whats getting us screwed now, while cowboy/gombeen capitalism got us here in first place



what we need is a centrist / level / balanced path, not to go swinging on some right wing or left wing path which as history shown time and time again are dead ends

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

MjcMurfy

I barely know where or how to start off this post so I guess I'll just jump straight in with:

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD PEOPLE, WHAT ARE WE DOING TO THE COUNTRY?

Before i forget, and this is important. If you are or have ever been obsessed with tiny fluctuations in your intra day stock portfolio, or are angry at having to pay the salaries of all those free loaders in the bloated public sector you hate so much, or in any way shape or form think that it is 'big government' and far-left socialist policies that have caused this mess, then i urge you just to please just click the back button now. You probably wont agree with much of what I have to say anyway, so why not just check out what the next thread is about?

This post is likely going to end up becoming an angry and frustrated tirade aimed at nobody in particular.

It is actually amazing though how many misinformed, illogical and in some cases - outright delusional - viewpoints I have been subjected to in the papers, on the radio, the tv, and various forums and blogs. All eagerly offer their own take on what's happening in the world around us.

But really what you get is the same couple of stories of recycled propaganda, twisted to suit a specific viewpoint and touted as if it were informed opinion, when it has all been derived from not much more than a cursory scan of the morning headlines. I guess it would probably be too much to ask for a bit of original thought that hasn't been mangled by political bias or self-interest. The mass media are experts in marketing bull**** as opinion, irresponsible twaddle devoid of anything factual. The masses lap it up, fuelling the fires of bull**** engulfing the country.

I do not understand how some of these people, with such an obvious lack of knowledge on the topic they spout on about, profess an opinion which is so blatantly vacuous to anyone who has even the smallest level of real knowledge as opposed to fear-mongering rhetoric from *insert vested interest here* regurgitated and presented as fact.

I wish people would do a bit more reading before advocating such hasty actions as massive cuts to the public services, jeez even a wikipedia article or two is better than nothing. Maybe these idiots should start off with a copy of 'economics even an eejit can understand' and then graduate up to a basic history lesson in the politics of the early 70s and mid 80s.

Remember the Thatcher years? This was the era in which deregulation of the financial institutions in the UK first took place. A hard-line push was made to shift towards the laissez faire economics of the free market, and in keeping with her newfound revelation, Thatcher refused to cave in to the 'socialist' demands of the Miner's Union, a group so powerful they had brought down a previous government. Thatcher was steadfast in her belief that the government would push ahead with closing the large and unprofitable mines in the north. The popular conservative doctrine championed the whole of Europe and the rest of the world into the global delusion that the light touch approach, with near-zero interference from the government, was the only possible socio-economic model that would ever work, ever, for always and in all circumstances no matter what.

All this info, and MORE, in books at your local library... until someone decides to cut their funding that is... better hurry! I suppose we can always just clock up more delicious credit card debt buying books off amazon.co.uk, perhaps reading them on the €250 kindle e-reader. Amazon deserve that money way more than the Irish public service. Amazon have lots of shareholders you know, and they have to keep them happy. Their children are distraught because they had to move down a whole price plan on their iPhone 3GS's, for crying out loud.

I do not mean to cause offence, but to all of you so vehemently opposed to particular decisions the government have been forced to make... just give it a rest will ye? I'm absolutely sick to death of hearing people criticizing the government on matters in which they had no other option but the unpopular one. They are not ruining their reputation for no reason, and I'm sure as hell the last thing Cowan needs to worry about now is the prospect of Taoiseach Kenny.

We all know struggling with debt is horrible. Especially if you have just lost your job. I know this because i have also lost my job and have levels of debt related stress that are probably increasing my risk of heart attack tenfold. We are all trying to stay afloat in the same river. Both public and private sectors alike.

But we still find ourselves in a situation which, prior to the events of late 2008 and the collapse of the financial giant Lehman Brothers, had previously been thought impossible by advocates of the invisible hand theory of the free-Market. It was widely held that it could only ever result in an overall net increase in wealth. Nothing like what we are now witnessing had ever occurred since the rise of global capitalism after the demise of communism in the middle of the last century. We are now in completely uncharted economic territory, with the fundamental principles capitalism was founded on starting to unravelling before our eyes.

The idea of the "invisible hand" of the almighty market is a concept similar to Darwinian survival of the fittest. The market determines the way the dice falls for a company based on supply and demand balance and a bunch of assumptions, such that a company will attempt at all times to maximise their profits and that the it will always act in the best interest of its shareholders, attempting to protect their investments by whatever legal, or not specifically illegal, means. The employee only benefits marginally from their productivity in the company... but it's OK, because "trickle down economics" will ensure a meagre percentage of the upper-class wealth trickles into the lower classes.

We rode into the latter part of this decade on a wave of unbridled excesses fuelled by the undeniable early successes of free trade. Some will argue that it was actually Thatcher's reform of the English banking system which was the one of the underlying causes of the 08/09 global recession, but I'm not fully convinced. Either way, her decision to deregulate the financial industry and privatise state owned businesses successfully lead Britain down the path to where they currently are, just behind the US in economic growth.

Yes, there is more...

For all of you infuriated at having to pay tax to fund public sector worker salaries, seriously what is your problem? I do agree that the public sector is overinflated and probably contains a lot of unnecessary employment, but what is the alternative? Would you rather see these people people lose their jobs? You still end up paying for their social benefit every week, but at least now you are getting a service in return for your money and keeping people with families to support in their jobs, as opposed to them becoming an even bigger drain on the public finances queueing up at the dole offices.

The underlying argument for cutting public sector jobs is typically one based on pure green-envy or else true blue conservative dogma which all too often is impervious to logic and reason. This same rhetoric has always, and will continue to be used as a shockingly transparent argument in support of the blatantly flawed right-wing ideology of reduced government, reduced public services, and the market's dominance over every aspect of our society.

We have seen how well guns-blazing capitalism has worked in The US. Privatised heathcare, private roads, bridges, arms manufacturers, almost every aspect of government is outsourced, and more and more things that would just take too long to list. America's healthcare system is well below the global average, and certainly well below the standard of care even the HSE provides to Irish citizens. I would gladly hand the rest of the free state back to the Queen again rather than see Ireland descend into the laissez faire chaos that is sung about by the republican party. They are just trying to live the dream I guess, but in reality it is a nightmare for all but the most affluent citizens.

In order for us to make any progress on our own economy, we need more educated and responsible public debates. Virtually the opposite of what you see in the Dail of late, and RTE is basically the PR branch of Fianna Fail. Bias is everywhere, and impatience, cynicism and belligerence run amok in the media. No sooner do we try and proceed in one direction, some group or union organise disruptive protests which seems to be the equivalent of holding a gun to the head of the government while making your demands. This subsequently polarizes public opinion on the matter, demonising either the Union or the Government depending on the situation, and ultimately just serves to distract the rest of our attention-deficient society away from the real issues.

Why do we really needs these these useless brains anyway when so few people actually use them in this media laden world. We have all those smart-sounding journalists to figure it all out and feed it to us through our favourite medium. It's easy to see why some journalists don't even waste their time with stupid facts. Pandering to populist opinion, by finger-pointing at anyone who smells like they have too much money is far better for the ratings.

What we achieve with these witch-hunts is a situation where politicians revel in the chaos, hoping to use it to their advantage and sway opinion to their side with tired rhetoric. You see it happening right now when Fine Gael basically forced O'Donaghue out the door, using him as a scapegoat for all the other eejits sitting on those benches who are probably worse offenders.

But facts, logic and the truth don't seem to be of much consequence in the world of political propaganda as long as it can sway the voter. We assist them at playing this dangerous game by our obsession with wanting to be up to date with every bowel movement Brian Cowen passes. The public are either too distracted by the chaos to remember the real issues, are biased by partisan politics or else too fuppin' stupid to understand the economic woes if Eddie Hobbs himself explained it in his thickest accent.

Every one of us needs to realise that this crisis can not be solely blamed on any one institution or individual.
It was not only the government who sat on the sidelines watching the show from court side seats yet did nothing, nor was it solely the fault of bank executives getting paid exuberant bonuses to entice them to lend recklessly, and nor was it even solely the fault of the greedy developers who bit off more than he could chew, spitting out the mess into a NAMA hankerchirf for the taxpayer to dryclean and iron out.

We can go after as many politicians as we like, but more equally useless eejits will take their place. This country needs to face the fact that both you and I are as much to blame, if not MORE so, as the bankers and developers who we gave our business to. It was the public who decided to go to the bank and apply for the loan, mortgage, equity loan or 5th credit card. It was us who flocked in the thousands to buy new homes we couldn't afford, creating the demand for developers to go bigger and bigger each time. And certainly nobody was forcing your hand to sign the contract for the new Audi or BMW, or when you maxed your credit card on one of your weekly shopping sprees buying goods which were obviously above your means... that big flatscreen TV, the iPhone, the Xbox or that top of the range PC.

It did all seem so innocent at the time, though!! But thinking about it for a minute it is clear that we did this to ourselves!

"Wait? Did he just say this was MY fault?"

Correct...

If tomorrow you feel like criticizing a politician for his expenses, just look at the 56" plasma hanging on your wall and think again. Next time you want to point the finger at anyone, maybe you should have a long hard look in the mirror first and ask yourself if its right to lay blame on easy targets. It is also exactly what the opposition are hoping you will do.

Just stop and think why it is you can't afford your mortgage repayments, or why your credit card interest leaves you no money to buy basic necessities. Yes, we were enabled by greedy bankers, and yes we were taken advantage of by developers and corporations who were only really giving us what we wanted at the time, and YES we were badly let down by those who were supposedly in charge of watching over the country. BUT, when it all boils down, and the layers are peeled away, it is obvious that it was ultimately ourselves who ruined the economy. Each one of us, all living our own little delusion.

No amount of criticizing the government, who are now trying to pick up all the pieces of this mess, will change that fact!

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

MjcMurfy

Lol. Sorry, no excerpt available!

You should probably just ignore it alltogether, I was just venting after being pushed past breaking point this morning listening to some fool going on about issues he blatently had no clue about.

MjcMurfy

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I completely agree with you regarding the cartels... I mean unions. They just cannot be persuaded to see reason, and those who are able to think in 2009 terms as opposed to 2007 get an equal share of the negative rep. Unions come across as arrogant and unyielding, but then again, they are dealing with the experts.

Seriously thogugh, there was no need for all those fuppin tractors. That was insane.

ednwireland

MjcMurfy wrote: »

Lol. Sorry, no excerpt available!

You should probably just ignore it alltogether, I was just venting after being pushed past breaking point this morning listening to some fool going on about issues he blatently had no clue about.

dont see any solutions in there just a load of stuff about how unfair the free market is, unless your proposing getting rid of the current economic system and replacing it with what ?

the current problem is gov outgoings twice their income how do YOU propose squaring that circle. i dont see carrying on as if nothing happended as a solution.

SO what do you do, I dont know either but i know if the company i work for doesnt invoice 35k a month i dont get paid.

starbelgrade

MjcMurfy wrote: »

I


BUT, when it all boils down, and the layers are peeled away, it is obvious that it was ultimately ourselves who ruined the economy. Each one of us, all living our own little delusion.

That was my point entirely. What's happening these days however, is that everyone seems to be pointing the finger in whatever direction they seem fit - except at themselves.

And it's getting us nowhere. At a time when we need a united front, we are anything but.

ardmacha

They contribute shoddy, inefficient services, wasting billions of revenue every year with their paper-pushing and bureaucracy.

Eliminate the paper pushers and bureaucrats, then.

The number of secondary-school students doing honours maths for the Leaving fell to an all-time low of 16 percent last year, despite a Department of Education budget that has now ballooned to over €9 billion. This is an example of the great job being done by the public sector.

Perhaps these students didn't wish to do maths. You cannot flog them now to make them do what you want, you know.

dvpower

starbelgrade wrote: »

That was my point entirely. What's happening these days however, is that everyone seems to be pointing the finger in whatever direction they seem fit - except at themselves.

And it's getting us nowhere. At a time when we need a united front, we are anything but.

Yes. Lets forget about the finger pointing and deal with our problems.

Problem 1: We cannot sustain the current cost of our public services.
Solution 1: We need to dramatically cut what we spend on our public services.

starbelgrade

dvpower wrote: »

Yes. Lets forget about the finger pointing and deal with our problems.

Problem 1: We cannot sustain the current cost of our public services.
Solution 1: We need to dramatically cut what we spend on our public services.

I don't disagree. However, I do disagree with the general vile that's expressed on texts from private sector workers directed to public sector workers weekly on talk-show radio programs. Not everyone in the public sector is overpaid, not everyone in the public sector does f*ck all for their wages & not everyone in the public sector is on a pensionable job.

Sure, some are - but that also happens in the private sector. What's needed is a balanced debate. Something HAS to give, but in order for that to happen, the finger pointing has to stop.

Look what happened when the taxi drivers blockaded O'Connell Street in Dublin - there was f*cking uproar on Boards - the amount of vile tirrades that was thrown at them was horrendous. Now, I'm not the biggest fan of Dublin taxi drivers, but they DO have a right to protest. We all have a right to protest, but the sad fact of the matter is, that we don't exercise this right enough & put far too much energy into b*tching & whining which achieves nothing.

We shouldn't be complaining about taxi drivers protesting - the more important question is - how come only 100 or so actually DID protest?

During the week, farmers blockaded 27 towns in Ireland. No-one complained about that. In fact, it was virtually ignored by the media. Block one street in the capital however, and it's headline news. Why so?

Our priorities are all over the place.

Amhran Nua

SkepticOne wrote: »

Only in state monopolies does militancy work for the workers since there is no danger of the public-sector organisation folding

I'd say there is a very real danger at the moment.

MjcMurfy wrote: »

"Wait? Did he just say this was MY fault?"

Correct...

Incorrect. Probably less than 15% of the population took out mortgages in the period 2000 to 2006, so the "majority are to blame" argument is groundless. Short term unsecured loans are nothing compared to the mortgage issue.

daithicarr

ardmacha wrote: »

The public sector do not live parasitically off the state, they contribute service to the State. Your expression is better applied to the nearly half a million who are sitting around contributing nothing, while living of the public purse.



Perhaps a quarter of public sector workers should take a pay cut as a quarter of the private sector have taken a pay cut.

and another 12 % or so should just loose their jobs? just like the private sector

MjcMurfy

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Incorrect. Probably less than 15% of the population took out mortgages in the period 2000 to 2006, so the "majority are to blame" argument is groundless. Short term unsecured loans are nothing compared to the mortgage issue.

Leaving aside my questions about the accuracy of that 15% figure, how exactly do you conclude the argument is groundless when you do not provide a single logical step to take us from the observation to the conclusion?

Can you please explain WHY you think that because only 15% of our population took out mortgages between 00-06 that the "majority are to blame" argument is groundless? What makes it groundless exactly?

From my reading of your post, the only way your argument would even make sense, never mind whether it is valid or not, is that you think that the cause of the Irish recession was "somehow" this 15% and their mortgages! Surely this cannot be the assumption you are operating under, can it?

It would have required countless thousands of homeowners to default on their loan agreements at virtually the same time to deliver a blow powerful enough to de-capitalise the banks so rapidly, and to such an extent, that they were essentially bankrupt if not for the government bailout. Even if 1,000 people default with an average mortgage of say €250,000, it is still only a loss of €250 million, spread between all the banks. This is mere pennies compared to the bailout they ultimately required, a whopping €7 billion.

I don't remember ever hearing anything about these mass foreclosures on the news last October?!?

Oh wait... that's because it didn't happen! Need I remind you that just before this crisis started, most people in this country had been successfully meeting their mortgage repayments. Heck, most of us are still managing to fend off foreclosure even now, if it means we have to eat bread and water for dinner!

I do not intend to waste my time rebutting your argument when what you are saying is obvious nonsense.

Also, to keep this post a readable length, I'll just pretend I didn't see that final statement you made, to the effect that "short term unsecured loans" have nothing to do with this mess.

Amhran Nua

MjcMurfy wrote: »

Leaving aside my questions about the accuracy of that 15% figure,

Thats a rough guesstimate at the number of houses sold plus top up mortgages etc in that period. Hence the number of mortgages.

MjcMurfy wrote: »

Can you please explain WHY you think that because only 15% of our population took out mortgages between 00-06 that the "majority are to blame" argument is groundless?

15%<85%

MjcMurfy wrote: »

It would have required countless thousands of homeowners to default on their loan agreements at virtually the same time to deliver a blow powerful enough to de-capitalise the banks so rapidly, and to such an extent, that they were essentially bankrupt if not for the government bailout. Even if 1,000 people default with an average mortgage of say €250,000, it is still only a loss of €250 million, spread between all the banks. This is mere pennies compared to the bailout they ultimately required, a whopping €7 billion.

First of all they stopped lending largely because of upstream lenders shutting off the cash spigot. This was in a time when banks just stopped trusting one another, that whole toxic debt subprime debacle. Second of all they do not need €7 billion, the bank bailouts are a farcical exercise that has failed to achieve its objective anywhere in the world. The banks have over €100 billion in their retail mortgage books which they are happily selling just as fast as they can right now.

MjcMurfy wrote: »

I don't remember ever hearing anything about these mass foreclosures on the news last October?!?

You might have picked up the odd bit of news about a credit crunch though. This means banks weren't lending, even to one another.

MjcMurfy wrote: »

Heck, most of us are still managing to fend off foreclosure even now, if it means we have to eat bread and water for dinner!

Yes, thats why the banks can resell your mortgage.

erictheviking

Irish people unite? Its an "I'm all right Jack" society. Everybody looks after their own interests, everybody wants other sections of society to pay for the economic crash.
The self employed want to pay less tax and see the public sector take massive pay cuts and job losses. People with no children want to see Child Benefit slashed and education budgets cut to the bone. Non union members blaming union members because they lost their jobs. IBEC wants the PAYE worker to shoulder the burden by having their standard of living cut dramatically while the well off take no cuts, People everywhere bitching about the bloke up the road who "got more out of the celtic tiger than I did".
Everybody wants someone else to pay. EVERYONE should make some sacrifice.What is really astonishing is nobody is blaming the real culprits or even asking them to pay for the damage they have caused.
By real culprits I mean corrupt politicians, greedy bankers and developers, speculators,
Then lower down the scale you have the greedy self employed who through the celtic tiger years helped raise costs of services to unsustainable levels, making us one of the most expensive countries in the world to live in. ( I should stop as its turning into a rant now):)
In the words of Gay Byrne...."You wanted your independence........Now pay for it!"

SkepticOne

erictheviking wrote: »

What is really astonishing is nobody is blaming the real culprits or even asking them to pay for the damage they have caused.
By real culprits I mean corrupt politicians, greedy bankers and developers, speculators,

Plenty threads on here about those people and why they should be held accountable. I'm certainly against the sort of bailouts that are being handed to some of these groups.

musicmonky

erictheviking wrote: »

Irish people unite? Its an "I'm all right Jack" society. What is really astonishing is nobody is blaming the real culprits or even asking them to pay for the damage they have caused.
By real culprits I mean corrupt politicians, greedy bankers and developers, speculators,
Then lower down the scale you have the greedy self employed who through the celtic tiger years helped raise costs of services to unsustainable levels, making us one of the most expensive countries in the world to live in. ( I should stop as its turning into a rant now):)
In the words of Gay Byrne...."You wanted your independence........Now pay for it!"

Totally true. Every one speculating many people did very well over the passed 10 years. Never hear about them.
I know lots of people sold up in Dublin moved to Galway/Cork now mortgage free. Or moved houses a few times, ended up mortgage free. Or the farmers who sold land make tons of money , Or the Guards with 5 houses.
Or the people who recently put lump sums on 13cent bank shares

Look what happened before the €100,000 guarantee. Suddenly all these people I thought where very middle (even low) income was worried about where to put their nest egg.

No one REALLY gaves a shi t and everyone loves moaning even if they have done well.

dvpower

I see a survey in today's sindo where 50% of people want a cut in public sevice pay, another 38% want a pay freeze and just 12% think that public servants should get pay increases.

Given this and recent comments by Lenihan, Harney, Cowen, O'Dea..., it looks like the writing is on the wall for public servants; expect an across the board pay cut coming down the tracks.

solas geal

To MjcMurphy - I probably agree with the majority of your post but I do take issue with your contention that everyone is to blame. What about all the ppl who didn't indulge in such excesses as you claim they have during the Celtic Tiger? For example, my parents don't even have 1 credit card, never mind 5, didn't buy any unaffordable car, house, tv whatever. Yet with indiscrimiate tax increases, spending cuts etc they will still be forced to pay for the situation. There are plenty others like them.
I know booms and busts are the nature of economic cycles and we do have to deal with it, most likely involving tax increases, but I think your painting of EVERYBODY as greedy-limo-driving-5 maxed credit cards-with so many plasma tvs they don't know where to put them-hardly helps the situation, and certainly will make it difficult for you to find favour with the masses for your argument as it is simply untrue.

starbelgrade

solas geal wrote: »

To MjcMurphy - I probably agree with the majority of your post but I do take issue with your contention that everyone is to blame. What about all the ppl who didn't indulge in such excesses as you claim they have during the Celtic Tiger? For example, my parents don't even have 1 credit card, never mind 5, didn't buy any unaffordable car, house, tv whatever. Yet with indiscrimiate tax increases, spending cuts etc they will still be forced to pay for the situation. There are plenty others like them.
I know booms and busts are the nature of economic cycles and we do have to deal with it, most likely involving tax increases, but I think your painting of EVERYBODY as greedy-limo-driving-5 maxed credit cards-with so many plasma tvs they don't know where to put them-hardly helps the situation, and certainly will make it difficult for you to find favour with the masses for your argument as it is simply untrue.

It's not a question of who was frugal or who was living on credit. It's not a question of who is in the public service or who is in the private sector. It's not even a question of who is employed or who is unemployed.

Everyone is feeling the pain to some degree albeit, different degrees. The question is, that when the sh*t hits the fan, why does everyone seem to think that they & they alone are the victim & that they are not the ones who are to take any of the blame or the responsibilty.

There is a great sense these days that we have been divided by the ruling class & that divided, we are once again conquered. Our community spirit to me, is dead & little that anyone has posted in this thread has done anything to convince me otherwise.

North_West_Art

My Dad was in Croatia a few years back, and was staying in a guest house where he became aquainted with the landlord and his friends who were all local men. They told him that a friend of theirs needed a life saving operation a year previously, and that 20 local men took a 50% wage cut for 4 months to pay for it. A cold day in hell before that gesture would ever be witnessed in this land of saints and scholars...

starbelgrade

North_West_Art wrote: »

My Dad was in Croatia a few years back, and was staying in a guest house where he became aquainted with the landlord and his friends who were all local men. They told him that a friend of theirs needed a life saving operation a year previously, and that 20 local men took a 50% wage cut for 4 months to pay for it. A cold day in hell before that gesture would ever be witnessed in this land of saints and scholars...

20 years ago, that might have been a different story in Ireland - I doubt we would have been THAT giving, but it seems that all sense of community, solidarity & even basic empathy went out the window with the Celtic Tiger.

Nobody's entitled to a 500mile wide plasma screen, no-one's daughter is entitled to ballet lessons & ugh boots, no-one's son is entitled to be picked up from school in a Chelsea tractor. But everyone should be entitled to at least some compassion and if needed, the help & support of their peers.

SkepticOne

starbelgrade wrote: »

Everyone is feeling the pain to some degree albeit, different degrees. The question is, that when the sh*t hits the fan, why does everyone seem to think that they & they alone are the victim & that they are not the ones who are to take any of the blame or the responsibilty.

No, the public sector have largely escaped the pinch to date. What proportion of the recently made unemployed are from the publc sector, do you think?

What have the public sector done to deserve unity with the private sector that pays their wages?

A lot of the anger against the public sector and the reason there is little unity stems from about a year ago when the cuts in pay such as the pension levy were first proposed. Back then the reaction from the representatives of public sector workers was "why should we take all the pain?", completely oblivious as to what was happening in the real economy that generates tax to pay their wages.

Now there is a call for unity. But what does this unity mean? I don't want to see anyone starve but why should I unite with workers who get approximately 25% better pay on a job for job basis, which comes out of the wage packets of private sector workers, when supporting that means that the underlying economy (that, ironically the public sector depend on) is weakened.

The only sort of unity I want to see is the level of public sector pay should be unified (i.e. brougtht to the same level immediately) with the equivalent private sector pay levels. Then we can talk about other forms of unity.

mikemac

There is no unity OP.
Every sector is looking out for themselves and nothing wrong with that.
Some sectors like public service workers and farmers are very organized and can organize protests quickly.
And some sectors like private sector PAYE workers feel disillusioned and don't see anyone representing and may well struggle to speak up.

It'll be those who speak loudest or who can guarantee a vote that get the preferential treatment. So speak up

Me, I wasn't to blame, average job, don't work overtime anymore due to 41% tax and levies, it ain't worth my while and that's less tax collected!
Didn't buy an overpriced house, never got 25% from an SSIA and ok, I'll pay for NAMA!
But my savings go to Rabobank a Dutch bank, and yes I pay DIRT tax on that again so don't worry, Minister Lenihan get's his share

starbelgrade

SkepticOne wrote: »

No, the public sector have largely escaped the pinch to date. What proportion of the recently made unemployed are from the publc sector, do you think?

What have the public sector done to deserve unity with the private sector that pays their wages?

A lot of the anger against the public sector and the reason there is little unity stems from about a year ago when the cuts in pay such as the pension levy were first proposed. Back then the reaction from the representatives of public sector workers was "why should we take all the pain?", completely oblivious as to what was happening in the real economy that generates tax to pay their wages.

Now there is a call for unity. But what does this unity mean? I don't want to see anyone starve but why should I unite with workers who get approximately 25% better pay on a job for job basis, which comes out of the wage packets of private sector workers, when supporting that means that the underlying economy (that, ironically the public sector depend on) is weakened.

The only sort of unity I want to see is the level of public sector pay should be unified (i.e. brougtht to the same level immediately) with the equivalent private sector pay levels. Then we can talk about other forms of unity.

I don't know what the average public sector gets paid. Neither do I know what their personal circumstances are - some are probably in negaative equity, some of them probably have partners who were once in the private sector who are now unemployed, some are probably struggling to pay the bills, feed the kids etc etc

And some are probably loaded. I don't know. None of us do - what I'm debating /arguing for is an honest deabte on it... I hate to use cliches, but a levelling of the playing field to see where we all really are - without the hyperbole, without the vitriole, without the fighting for corners, so that we can see once and for all where (excuse cliche MA-SSS-IFE) where the goalposts are really & truly and how and if they can be moved to make a more honest, open & ultimately, just society.

It's asking a lot, but it's not impossible.

starbelgrade

mikemac wrote: »

Me, I wasn't to blame, average job, don't work overtime anymore due to 41% tax and levies, it ain't worth my while and that's less tax collected!
Didn't buy an overpriced house, never got 25% from an SSIA and ok, I'll pay for NAMA!

You're not part of the problem, but you are part of the solution. By paying for NAMA & if you choose, by working overtime. At least, that's what the government line is. You should be angry. Everyone should be angry. Everyone is feeling gimped these days.

But where should we vent this anger? At each other & fight amongst ourselves for the scraps or aim for the pie that's been unfairly divided for years between the elite & the super elite?

jetfiremuck

Excellent food for thought. I think most people let the government do what it liked when things started to take off as everyone was happy. Now they are the object of scorn. My self I think it was about 1997 when I felt things lift. Bank Of Scotland with competitive mortgage rates and remember MBNA credit card company which gave credit cards to anyone who had a job. This and the cheaper money led to the Celtic Tiger as I see it. Anyone who remembers the PAYE marches in the 80s when the car sales for the year 50k, expensive interest rates on houses etc. did not buy into the Celtic Tiger and these are the folks who feel shafted. The "I told you so" is no consolation to them.

mega man

starbelgrade wrote: »

... we are doing the complete opposite. On the radio, there have been numerous texts from private sector workers b*tching about public sector pay. There have been threads on Boards saying that taxi drivers should go to hell, that homeowners who default on their loans should be made homeless, that debt defaulters get what they deserve (up to jail time in some extremes).

Yes, we are angry at the government, yes, we are angry at having less to live on, yes we are angry.

But where are we directing our anger? A lot of the time, in the wrong direction. At a time like this, we need to unite, or we will fall apart..

Why dont we give the banks the two fingers!They cant jail the whole country...

ghost_ie

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

The public sector haven't been trumpting their divine right to guaranteed jobs, guaranteed pensions and 25% higher salaries. The media has done this.

My daughter is a nurse. She pays towards her pension just like a private sector employee, and also pays a levy for having this pension (the levy does not contribute to her pension).

She works 5 days a week, 8.30am-4.30pm - and frequently works overtime for no pay - in an endoscopy unit for €35,000 per annum. She has never taken a sick day. How much more work do you want her to do? She does her job well, and her salary and pension won't come anywhere close to those of the politicians, higher civil servants and bankers who have got us into this mess.

Diarmuid

ghost_ie wrote: »

She does her job well, and her salary and pension won't come anywhere close to those of the politicians, higher civil servants and bankers who have got us into this mess.

I think you are missing the point of comparing job descriptions when comparing salaries. She should not be on the same salary as someone (supposedly) running the country. However she should be on a similar wage to someone doing her job in the private sector. She probably isn't.

Noreen1

OP - I see the logic in what you are saying. I can't see it ever achieving anything, unfortunately.

The fact is, we have a media that prefers sensationalist headlines to balanced reporting, a lot of the time.

Add the fact that a lot of people, when highly stressed, react with antagonism/anger, and you have a situation where peoples justifiable anger can be exploited and manipulated by vested interests and their expensive marketing teams.

The main fault her lies with the Banks - they broke the Golden rule of Banking (Never lend more than you have in Deposits!)

Those who buy shares in any Company worldwide take a loss if those shares fall in value. There is no question about that.
I see no reason why Bank shareholders shouldn't expect to take at least some loss.
I absolutely fail to see why many Bank Managers still have a job, never mind fat bonuses.

My anger is directed at the greedy Banks who caused the crises, and the Government who, at best, failed utterly to manage the economy - at worst, colluded with the elite to safeguard the interests of the few, at the expense of Joe Public - and rolled out "qualified professionals" to strengthen their case, when needed.

Joe Public, whether he/she works in the Public sector or Private sector, took out mortgages or loans based on their income. Joe Public is not required to be an economist - that's why we have professional services.

Therefore there is no point in Joe Public blaming the guy next door because the professionals made a complete mess of things.

When we play the Public vs. Private sector game, we are just letting the real culprits off the hook.

Noreen

jetfiremuck

To rely on the Gov and it's ilk to guide us is in itself lunacy. The easiest way the gov use to implement policies is by keeping sides pitted against each other. Look at how the pensioners medical card climbdown happened when Biddy and Tom put pressure on. Time to deal with carbon tax, water rates, etc and create incentives for the private sector to create jobs.