bought a remapped car, what can I do about it?

Bodo · 13-10-2009 9:16am #1

Hey,

it seems I bought 2nd hand car with remapped ecu... only seller "forgot" to mention this tiny/little detail.... Now (6months later) problems with the car are starting to appear... what can I do to get the bastard who sold me the car?
I would probably first need sbd to do diagnostics and provide written confirmation/testimony this is the case. Then what legal/other steps I can take? Any hints from anybody who experienced sth like that would be appreciated.

Rgds,
B.

GalwayKiefer · 13-10-2009 9:18am

Did you buy privately or from a dealer?

Drummerboy08 · 13-10-2009 9:19am

What exactly are the problems, and how would they be related to a remapped ECU?

Alanstrainor · 13-10-2009 9:31am

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

What exactly are the problems, and how would they be related to a remapped ECU?

+1, a remap doesn't imediately mean that it will cause problems for the car.

Hogzy · 13-10-2009 9:31am

Caveat emptor if it was bought privatly afaik

Bodo · 13-10-2009 9:48am

Hey,

it was bought from the used car dealer.
caveat emptor - i dont think so, there are some insurance/road safety issues involved and how is a normal user to figure out his car has been tampered with?
problems - I am not going to clarify on this one (yet), as I said I first need to get a confirmation - can sbd advise a specialist who would be able to give a professional opinion about it?

Rgds,
B

Absurdum · 13-10-2009 9:50am

if you didn't realise it was remapped until 6 months later, it's quite possible that the dealer had no idea it was either

you should calm down and stop making silly threats on the internet

BlackWizard · 13-10-2009 9:53am

Quick check the tyres!! They might not be the same size as the originals. Sue the bas**rd dealer!! :pac:

People modify their cars. It's nothing new.

Hogzy · 13-10-2009 9:55am

Bodo wrote: »

it was bought from the used car dealer.
caveat emptor - i dont think so, there are some insurance/road safety issues

Hence why i said if it was bought privatly!

Bodo wrote: »

and how is a normal user to figure out his car has been tampered with?

An AA check or any diagnostics check would probably have shown it, did you get it inspected by a third party?

g5hn710m4xpdwy · 13-10-2009 9:56am

You could inform the insurance company and just enjoy the extra power/benfeits?

killwill · 13-10-2009 9:58am

What was it remapped for? Performance or economy? Both are very common and not major issues. I would be surprised if you had any case at all tbh.

EPM · 13-10-2009 10:02am

You'll get a lot more useful advice is you give an idea of the problems you are having. People here may be able to help you identify if they could be as a direct result of a remap. But usually a remap, if done correctly, wont do any harm.

What type of car is it and how do you actually know it is remapped?

Vegeta · 13-10-2009 10:04am

Hang on

Remapping a car is not that straight forward a process. It often involves switching out some hardware and either putting in a programmable unit or an off the shelf known component.

What kind of car do you have?

My girlfriend's dad is an indy mechanic and has a diagnostic tool and I have played around with it on a few cars. I have never seen any info on maps in there so not sure how much satisfaction you'd get running diagnostic software on it. Maybe main dealers would have more software/kit, could someone with more experience throw light on it.

There are lots of people who re-map cars for performance gains such as Track Day Performance (TDP) Couture Auto, Westward Engineering. They could all probably tell quite quickly.

Mr Benevolent · 13-10-2009 10:20am

OP what car is it? More importantly, is it a turbo? And how do you know it's been remapped?

kdevitt · 13-10-2009 10:26am

Vegeta wrote: »

Hang on

Remapping a car is not that straight forward a process.

Eh - its is that straightforward - a trained monkey could remap a car or fit a tuning box. Said monkey may require a manicure before attempting to chip a car though.

Unless the dealer was a main dealer for the brand of car purchased its unlikely they would have been able to find out, let alone know, it was remapped.

Gumbo · 13-10-2009 10:31am

Vegeta wrote: »

Hang on

Remapping a car is not that straight forward a process. It often involves switching out some hardware and either putting in a programmable unit or an off the shelf known component.

What kind of car do you have?

My girlfriend's dad is an indy mechanic and has a diagnostic tool and I have played around with it on a few cars. I have never seen any info on maps in there so not sure how much satisfaction you'd get running diagnostic software on it. Maybe main dealers would have more software/kit, could someone with more experience throw light on it.

There are lots of people who re-map cars for performance gains such as Track Day Performance (TDP) Couture Auto, Westward Engineering. They could all probably tell quite quickly.

remapping a car through the obd port is as simple as plugging in the laptop and hitting enter!

garage diagnostic equipment cannot pick up on this either iirc
BMW cannot pick up on my remapped ecu.

Vegeta · 13-10-2009 10:33am

kdevitt wrote: »

Eh - its is that straightforward - a trained monkey could remap a car or fit a tuning box. Said monkey may require a manicure before attempting to chip a car though.

EDIT: Apologies, I assumed the OP went for a full custom map, head is in race car mode. yeah if it was off the shelf map and a diagnostic port job then it is pretty straight forward

So removing the standard ECU, inserting a socket or soldering a programmable ECU to the car, hooking that new ECU up to a laptop, knowing how to work the mapping software, owning a dyno, knowing how to use the dyno to map the car compared to just doing a power run, knowing the theory involved in mapping so that you get a safe map and don't run it too lean or advance reatard the ignition timing to a dangerous area, that's straight forward is it?

If you have monkeys of this calibre for sale then send me a PM as I'd be interested in a few of em

Vegeta · 13-10-2009 10:39am

kceire wrote: »

remapping a car through the obd port is as simple as plugging in the laptop and hitting enter!

Apologies I thought the OP was talking about a remap a kin to what a modified car may get.
Yours is obviously an off the shelf map, which is a much more straight forward than what I outlined above

Bodo · 13-10-2009 10:45am

if you didn't realise it was remapped until 6 months later, it's quite possible that the dealer had no idea it was either you should calm down and stop making silly threats on the internet

and how would I be able to realize this? I am not a mechanic, and I bought the car, imagine this, just to drive and perhaps to enjoy it

I wasn't making any threats to anybody here or so I at least thought :eek: I am actually very surprised to see that many of you took it so personally

car is with the main dealer atm, mechanics there are slightly surprised to say the least, some of the additional problems seem to have started after software upgrade done as part of normal maintenance, I did some additional diagnostics and I see that my car has a lot more torque than it should have and also a few other bits are also well above the normal marks, so basically first I need sbd to confirm the suspicion I have. yeah, it's a car with turbo and as I said I am not 100% sure about the remap thing either, that's why I need an advice - for a dealer if it's a remap it does not seem to be easy to figure it out, either.

...but I am getting the idea that I am talking here mostly to a cartuners fanclub here (with some noble exceptions), so this might just be my last post in the thread

Henry Ford III · 13-10-2009 10:49am

kceire wrote: »

....garage diagnostic equipment cannot pick up on this either iirc
BMW cannot pick up on my remapped ecu.

Why not? A remap is essentially a software upgrade changing some ecu settings/limits. It is easy to compare manufacturers settings against those to be found in any remapped ecu surely?

Darsad · 13-10-2009 10:49am

Yeah your best option is to go vent on a solicitor ! if as you were asked you supplied some back up info people might have been a little more receptive to you !!

Stevie Dakota · 13-10-2009 10:53am

Can you explain how a remap, after 6 months has made your car dangerous? Genuinely curious as I am considering a remap myself.

Darsad · 13-10-2009 10:56am

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Why not? A remap is essentially a software upgrade changing some ecu settings/limits. It is easy to compare manufacturers settings against those to be found in any remapped ecu surely?

A dealer may not be able to see if a remap has been performed but a distributor can . Most OE ECU maps have an identification code which can be down loaded as part of a ram down load ( a little above the average dealer ) or will be attached as part of a data file if logged and e mailed to a distributor . It is basically a sum calculation of the program and if parameters are changed this sum will be different !

Owen · 13-10-2009 10:59am

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Why not? A remap is essentially a software upgrade changing some ecu settings/limits. It is easy to compare manufacturers settings against those to be found in any remapped ecu surely?

Most manufacturers can't diagnose map issues, because what happens is the map is extracted from the ECU, altered, and the map is downloaded into the ECU, with the same filenames and chassis numbers as the original. So the manufacturers diagnostic software looks to see if the original map is there, sees the filename/chassis number, assumes all is okay, and that's that.

A friend of mine had the MTH franchise for Ireland, and they used to be certain when creating the new files that the checksum, etc was the same when downloading the new map to the car.

I would be very very very surprised if a remap caused an issues. If there was a mechanical weak point in the car, it would be weak with or without the map and would have eventually failed regardless.

smcgiff · 13-10-2009 11:05am

Bodo wrote: »

...but I am getting the idea that I am talking here mostly to a cartuners fanclub here (with some noble exceptions), so this might just be my last post in the thread

Nope - You're dealing with people that are knowledgeable about and in love (There - I said it!

) with cars. Sorry if your assumptions weren't backed up. :rolleyes:

Darsad · 13-10-2009 11:08am

I think you mean most distributors as all manufacturers can see where a file/program has been altered even if the check sum is unaltered.

Owen · 13-10-2009 11:11am

Darsad wrote: »

I think you mean most distributors as all manufacturers can see where a file/program has been altered even if the check sum is unaltered.

Most manufacturers don't do mechanical work. They have service representatives which they send to Dealerships who will have a lot of mechanical experience, who will then discuss the important issues with the master technicians and both then come to their conclusions.

The only real way to diagnose for certain if a car has indeed been remapped is to stick it on a rolling road, or use (And I've seen it done), Dynolicious on the iPhone.

Bodo · 13-10-2009 11:21am

Stevie Dakota wrote: »

Can you explain how a remap, after 6 months has made your car dangerous? Genuinely curious as I am considering a remap myself.

not the remap itself, rather the fact that the seller didn't inform me about it, meaning you expect the car to work the way manufacturer configured it, where in fact you should be perhaps expecting the unexpected...

more importantly if accident happens insurer will deny any claims if they found out about it, so basically you pay and get blamed for everything even if it wasn't your fault.

also when you buy a 2nd hand car like this, then you have to be aware that it was tuned because you will very likely have to :
- replace fuel injectors as they were working above conditions they were designed for, thus reducing their time of life
- replace the turbo as it died because it was working above the conditions specified by manufacturer
- replace the clutch as it was forced to transfer more torque than it was designed to

Darsad · 13-10-2009 11:22am

PaintDoctor wrote: »

The only real way to diagnose for certain if a car has indeed been remapped is to stick it on a rolling road, or use (And I've seen it done), Dynolicious on the iPhone.

Im sorry but Dynolicious its basically just a G sensor reading with fancy graphics and is no more useful to diagnosing a cars performance than my kids toy steering wheel is for steering my car

Owen · 13-10-2009 11:25am

Darsad wrote: »

Im sorry but Dynolicious its basically just a G sensor reading with fancy graphics and is no more useful to diagnosing a cars performance than my kids toy steering wheel is for steering my car

There's a youtube vid, where guys take Dynolicious, and compare it to a rolling road, and it's only a few bhp out. It's surprisingly accurate. And even if it were just a fancy G meter, surely a remapped car would pull a little more g than a car that wasn't? So it would work regardless.

smcgiff · 13-10-2009 11:33am

Bodo wrote: »

also when you buy a 2nd hand car like this, then you have to be aware that it was tuned because you will very likely have to :
- replace fuel injectors as they were working above conditions they were designed for, thus reducing their time of life
- replace the turbo as it died because it was working above the conditions specified by manufacturer
- replace the clutch as it was forced to transfer more torque than it was designed to

Google's great isn't it...

Your original post was to do with your suspicion that a remap has caused you problems. Has this been ascertained?

And as been said above I would not expect a 2nd hand dealer to check a car to see if it has been remapped.

A proper remapped car should still be well within the boundaries of what a car is capable of putting up with. Case in point....

SAAB 93 2.0t and 1.8t - Same engine, same turbo, but the 2.0t is tuned for greater BHP. Everything else is the same.

Darsad · 13-10-2009 11:45am

PaintDoctor wrote: »

There's a youtube vid, where guys take Dynolicious, and compare it to a rolling road, and it's only a few bhp out. It's surprisingly accurate. And even if it were just a fancy G meter, surely a remapped car would pull a little more g than a car that wasn't? So it would work regardless.

Ok just to explain neither a dyno or the i pod thingy can be used as difinitive indicators that an engine ECU has been tampered with ! a print out from either will not stand up in a court for the following reasons.
> The same car will measure differently on different Dynos
> The same car will measure differently on the same dyno on different days
> Dynos measure power at the wheels and manufacturers figures are at the flywheel therefore the calculation back to the flywheel is an estimate and as nobody could possible know the actual loss the running gear creates the % drop figure is an estimate also.
> There are many more such as heat soak atmospheric pressure and on .
Dynos are only useful to determine a power increase or modification benefit on a given day thats it no more. The only people who can categorically stand up in a court of law and state that an ECU was tampered with is the manufacturer.
Dynos are little more than toys for boys and are not used by manufacturers

Vegeta · 13-10-2009 12:04pm

Darsad wrote: »

Dynos are little more than toys for boys and are not used by manufacturers

Do they not qualify the engines with engine dynos no?

Graham_B18C · 13-10-2009 12:21pm

Bodo wrote: »

basically first I need sbd to confirm the suspicion I have

sbd...silent but deadly???

Absurdum · 13-10-2009 12:22pm

Bodo wrote: »

and how would I be able to realize this? I am not a mechanic, and I bought the car, imagine this, just to drive and perhaps to enjoy it I wasn't making any threats to anybody here or so I at least thought :eek: I am actually very surprised to see that many of you took it so personally

nobody accused you of making threats to anybody here but...

Bodo wrote: »

what can I do to get the bastard who sold me the car?

...sounds threatening to me.

Bodo wrote: »

...but I am getting the idea that I am talking here mostly to a cartuners fanclub here (with some noble exceptions), so this might just be my last post in the thread

and since you haven't bothered to tell us what the car actually is or what these problems are, and what the dealer has actually told you (assuming you went back) don't expect any specific advice.

Nonoperational · 13-10-2009 12:32pm

Wow it was hardly like the dealer sneaked a remap on there just to get at you. It's very simple to reprogramme the ECU with an original map again, all tuning companies have the original maps as do main dealers as far as I know. I would also be curious to know what the remap actually did to the car.

Matt Simis · 13-10-2009 12:40pm

Bodo wrote: »

also when you buy a 2nd hand car like this, then you have to be aware that it was tuned because you will very likely have to :
- replace fuel injectors as they were working above conditions they were designed for, thus reducing their time of life
- replace the turbo as it died because it was working above the conditions specified by manufacturer
- replace the clutch as it was forced to transfer more torque than it was designed to

"Very likely have to..." !? For the love of god please stop spouting about something you clearly have no idea about. You still havent provided any details or facts. I think you were under the impression Remaps are something the "bad" people do in Fast and Furious, not something as off the shelf and casual as it has become.

eddieham · 13-10-2009 12:43pm

sorry OP but from what you have posted so far, IMHO you should just pay for the repairs yourself.

You have had the car for over six months so I presume your warranty from the garage is now up.

You stated "bought a remapped car" and currently you have no proof of this.
You will require the cooperation of the manufacturer to prove this in court. Original source code and remap code will have to be presented or at least a suitably qualified professional will have to testify to this

Even then, if you can prove a remap, whats to stop the garage saying you had it done after purchasing the car from them.

The onus is on you to prove that on the date you purchased the car that it was remapped.
IMHO this is almost impossible to prove, all things considered.
Others here are far more knowledgeable than me on motor issues and I am open to correction on the above

ianobrien · 13-10-2009 12:48pm

Grahamo999 wrote: »

sbd...silent but deadly???

Im thinking of SBD in the UK. They are a company that "specialise in designing and manufacturing of engine components and management systems for the Vauxhall, Ford Duratec & Suzuki hayabusa engines for motorsport use."

Basically they get crazy power from Opel/Vauxhall C20XE, Ford Duratec and Hayabusa engines.

http://www.sbdev.co.uk/Main.htm

Nonoperational · 13-10-2009 12:48pm

Sounds pretty much spot on to me. I can see the OPs point maybe if the remap was excessive and it shot the clutch in a few months or something to that effect. Still almost impossible to get any satisfaction I owuld imagine. But as we don't know whats wrong its pointless going any further!

Blazer · 13-10-2009 12:52pm

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Why not? A remap is essentially a software upgrade changing some ecu settings/limits. It is easy to compare manufacturers settings against those to be found in any remapped ecu surely?

Try hitting Cntrl+Enter+Delete...there's nothing the magic reboot won't fix

If that doesn't work check to see if you can do a system restore

Darsad · 13-10-2009 12:56pm

Vegeta wrote: »

Do they not qualify the engines with engine dynos no?

Apologies I was of course talking about rolling road dynos ,

Mr.Diagnostic · 13-10-2009 4:12pm

Bodo wrote: »

car is with the main dealer atm, mechanics there are slightly surprised to say the least, some of the additional problems seem to have started after software upgrade done as part of normal maintenance,

I am guessing here, because the OP will not give details, but it is possible the dealer has flashed the ECU software and that has caused an issue which is now being blamed on a previous remap?

If it had a remap before then the flashing by the dealer has wiped any evidence of it.

I would think it very likely that if it was running ok and only has problems since the dealer flash then the flash is to blame. These type of problems are common enough.

I wonder if the OP has been suckered into a blame game by those who are actually responsible?

Owen · 13-10-2009 4:14pm

Darsad wrote: »

Apologies I was of course talking about rolling road dynos ,

Fair enough, but if you were trying to figure out if a car had been remapped, the differences between dynos wouldn't be that much out in order to establish whether a car for example a 320d had 115Bhp, or 150Bhp. Even if the dyno misread, and showed 140Bhp, you'd still know it was mapped - especially if you had access to a standard car to run against on the same dyno.

tossy · 13-10-2009 4:48pm

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Fair enough, but if you were trying to figure out if a car had been remapped, the differences between dynos wouldn't be that much out in order to establish whether a car for example a 320d had 115Bhp, or 150Bhp. Even if the dyno misread, and showed 140Bhp, you'd still know it was mapped - especially if you had access to a standard car to run against on the same dyno.

Yes but most Turbo diesels (at least every VAG diesel i've seen on a dyno) read higher as standard anyway,it wouldn't be beyond impossible for a 320d to putting out up to 130bhp from the factory,so where does that leave you bad remap or just running more than quoted from the factory.

Dealers/mechanics generally don't have the diagnostic equipment to read the parameters that need to be changed to remap a car - it is a totally different program.

It sounds like the OPs car could have been victim to a cowboy mapper,i'e he just turned up the fueling to the max (hence the injectors going) and he turned up boost to the max (hence the turbo going) the clutch could just be an unfortunate coincidence - hard ot say without knowing the mileage.

smcgiff · 13-10-2009 6:48pm

tossy wrote: »

It sounds like the OPs car could have been victim to a cowboy mapper,i'e he just turned up the fueling to the max (hence the injectors going) and he turned up boost to the max (hence the turbo going) the clutch could just be an unfortunate coincidence - hard ot say without knowing the mileage.

He didn't say the above faults occurred, just that he expects they will.

Matt Simis · 13-10-2009 7:36pm

Berkut wrote: »

Try hitting Cntrl+Enter+Delete...there's nothing the magic reboot won't fix

If that doesn't work check to see if you can do a system restore

Ctrl Enter Del... somethings wrong with your PC if that reboots it.

tossy · 13-10-2009 8:01pm

smcgiff wrote: »

He didn't say the above faults occurred, just that he expects they will.

My bad - the vagueness of the OP doesn't help the thread in fairness.

Darsad · 14-10-2009 9:47am

We had long given up on helping the OP but were having a good debate regardless.

Vegeta · 14-10-2009 11:48am

Darsad wrote: »

We had long given up on helping the OP but were having a good debate regardless.

Indeed

It has shown me just how difficult it is to say with certainty if some cars have been mapped or not.

jayotala · 16-10-2009 8:03pm

Do we know what car he has, details, problems????

bought a remapped car, what can I do about it?

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