Are the No side conceding defeat?

Firefox10

I think we can thank our lucky stars that the religious and socialist loons have been kicked to touch. Thankfully people woke up and all it took was a economic collapse of this country.

dixiefly

Personally I am delighted that those most objectionable of people Ganly and Patricia McKenna have been put back in their box by this YES vote.

PaulieD

Firefox10 wrote: »

I think we can thank our lucky stars that the religious and socialist loons have been kicked to touch. Thankfully people woke up and all it took was a economic collapse of this country.

Lisbon will do sweet feck all to help our economic woes.:rolleyes:

Boskowski

dixiefly wrote: »

Personally I am delighted that those most objectionable of people Ganly and Patricia McKenna have been put back in their box by this YES vote.

Are you working for BBC Sports by any chance?

Sam Vimes

realcam wrote: »

Lol, here we go again...
What does the criminal conduct in Irish politics, business & banking and complete abandoning of risk mitigation practices have to do with Lehmann? I mean our banks don't need a bailout because they're sitting on billions of dodgy US investment papers. They need one because they are effin greedy criminals and the problem is entirely homegrown.

Jesus you really have the FF party line down to a fine art.

I hate Fianna Fail and have never voted in my life actually. The point I'm making here is that you're never going to win the argument that none of the business leaders and economic experts in our country know anything about what might help the economy because a few people in one sector didn't predict a recession and the people who don't want Lisbon passed do. It's a ridiculous, baseless ad hominem attack

Sam Vimes

realcam wrote: »

Well, we're splitting hairs now aren't we?

No we're pointing out the difference between a reasonable economic prediction based on experience and the support of a multitude of experts and a manipulative lie, such as the lie that the guarantees aren't legally binding

Boskowski

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I hate Fianna Fail and have never voted in my life actually.

Wow. This isn't an attack now!

But, how could someone who is obviously politically interested and also educated and also very adamant about certain political aspects not participate in the democratic processes?

I'm genuinely interested. How old are you?

Edit: And since we're getting personal now (not in a negative way I hope). Do you identify yourself with the character of Sam Vimes? Only asking cos I think its a great character myself, one of my favourites actually.

dixiefly

realcam wrote: »

Are you working for BBC Sports by any chance?

If were listening to the results on the radio you would realise that almost all boxes opened so far are YES. These would not be significant individually but COLLECTIVELY they tell the story - so your sarcastic comment is without foundation!

dlofnep

This isn't defeat for the no side. It's a defeat for democracy. I didn't hear one positive thing from the Yes campaign about the good aspects of the treaty. All I saw was this "I'm safer in Europe" bullshít - implying that we'd not be in Europe after rejecting the Treaty - or threatening that we would lose jobs and so forth.

Don't scaremonger the public - Tell them exactly what the good parts of the treaty are. And the no side is just as much to blame for scaremongering.

Nobody wins. It's just a population of confused and scared people who are voting out of confusion and fear. If even 5% of the population made an educated vote, based on the merits or lack of in the actual Treaty, I'd be very surpised.

ei.sdraob

dlofnep wrote: »

This isn't defeat for the no side. It's a defeat for democracy. I didn't hear one positive thing from the Yes campaign about the good aspects of the treaty. All I saw was this "I'm safer in Europe" bullshít - implying that we'd not be in Europe after rejecting the Treaty - or threatening that we would lose jobs and so forth.

did you even bother reading threads here?

i know all the positive YES threads with reasons got buried by endless repetitive drivel from a certain side, there was plenty of threads from the YES here about the positive aspects of the treaty

please show me 1 single thread or poster from NO side about anything positive, just endless lies, negativity and scaremongering, if there is a YES win then yee only have yourselves to blame

/

Boskowski

ei.sdraob wrote: »

please show me 1 single thread or poster from NO side about anything positive, just endless lies, negativity and scaremongering

Well as it happens I made several attempts but I also got drowned by a 'certain side'. Actually no one ever replied in a meaningful way to my one 'biggy' on Lisbon.

Sam Vimes

realcam wrote: »

Wow. This isn't an attack now!

But, how could someone who is obviously politically interested and also educated and also very adamant about certain political aspects not participate in the democratic processes?

I do vote but not for Fianna Fail

realcam wrote: »

I'm genuinely interested. How old are you?

I'd rather not give my age exactly, I'm between 22 and 29

realcam wrote: »

Edit: And since we're getting personal now (not in a negative way I hope). Do you identify yourself with the character of Sam Vimes? Only asking cos I think its a great character myself, one of my favourites actually.

Well the assassins guild has never tried to kill me and I've never gone back in time.....

dlofnep wrote: »

This isn't defeat for the no side. It's a defeat for democracy. I didn't hear one positive thing from the Yes campaign about the good aspects of the treaty. All I saw was this "I'm safer in Europe" bullshít - implying that we'd not be in Europe after rejecting the Treaty - or threatening that we would lose jobs and so forth.

I saw lots. Yes there was a lot of that stuff but they talked about the treaty too

And honestly, do you really think the last one was a shining beacon of democracy? Do you really think it would have been a no without the Libertas lies?

Data_Quest

dixiefly wrote: »

Personally I am delighted that those most objectionable of people Ganly and Patricia McKenna have been put back in their box by this YES vote.

I wholeheartedly agree: the unlikely alliance of extreme left and right was enough to swing it for me. I felt compelled to vote Yes on that basis alone. In a parliamentary election this bunch of misfits (Sinn Fein, Socialists, ex-Greens, UK-IP, Coir) would hardly get 10% of the vote. It is amazing that they will probably get about 40% of the vote. My only gripe is that in typical Irish fashion we have spent millions on this re-vote that could have been spent on hostipals or education.

Sam Vimes

realcam wrote: »

Well as it happens I made several attempts but I also got drowned by a 'certain side'. Actually no one ever replied in a meaningful way to my one 'biggy' on Lisbon.

Which was...

turgon

Its looking like the Irish voters have in fact rejected the ignorance, lying and euroskepticism that defined the No side.

PaulieD

Data_Quest wrote: »

I wholeheartedly agree: the unlikely alliance of extreme left and right was enough to swing it for me. I felt compelled to vote Yes on that basis alone. In a parliamentary election this bunch of misfits (Sinn Fein, Socialists, ex-Greens, UK-IP, Coir) would hardly get 10% of the vote. It is amazing that they will probably get about 40% of the vote. My only gripe is that in typical Irish fashion we have spent millions on this re-vote that could have been spent on hostipals or education.

You voted Yes simply because of who was on the No side. Un-fecking-believable.

PaulieD

turgon wrote: »

Its looking like the Irish voters have in fact rejected the ignorance, lying and euroskepticism that defined the No side.

It seems they voted for "jobs", "prosperity" and "recovery". None of which, have anything to do with Lisbon. Oh ho ho I cannot wait to use this as a stick to beat all the major parties with.

turgon

PaulieD wrote: »

It seems they voted for "jobs", "prosperity" and "recovery". None of which, have anything to do with Lisbon. Oh ho ho I cannot wait to use this as a stick to beat all the major parties with.

Business confidence has a lot to do with Lisbon, which is why Intel and Ryanair joined the fray.

But PD: which do you think is more misleading Yes for Jobs or No because Democracy will Die? At least the former has some rational economic reasoning behind it.

Kalashnikov_Kid

PaulieD wrote: »

You voted Yes simply because of who was on the No side. Un-fecking-believable.

You're absolutely right - they were indeed unbelievable.

DarkJager

The government squanders an unbelievable amount of OUR money, then uses it as a tool to scare people in voting Yes. Lisbon isn't going to save the economy here, unless its planning to remove the government. If it really is a Yes result, I won't be surprised. It just confirms how gullible the voters in this country are.

PaulieD

PaulieD wrote: »

You voted Yes simply because of who was on the No side. Un-fecking-believable.

What about those who voted purely to spite FF et al?

Sam Vimes

PaulieD wrote: »

You voted Yes simply because of who was on the No side. Un-fecking-believable.

Well a lot of people voted no because of who was on the yes side. The difference is that the people who voted no for that reason had to focus on the government and ignore all the reputable organisations and people who were also calling for a yes vote but there weren't really any reputable organisations on the no side, they were all extremists who represent the views of very few people. The only ones with reputability were the two unions but there were a lot more unions on the yes side

Boskowski

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I do vote but not for Fianna Fail

Well, your first answer sounded more like as if you never ever voted at all.

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I'd rather not give my age exactly, I'm between 22 and 29

That's fair enough, I was only wondering did you not vote because you're not eligible yet. So that point goes away then.

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Well the assassins guild has never tried to kill me and I've never gone back in time.....

I take it as a 'Yes' then.

Sam Vimes wrote: »

And honestly, do you really think the last one was a shining beacon of democracy? Do you really think it would have been a no without the Libertas lies?

No I don't. But I believe also that Irish people (and most Europeans for that matter) aren't ready for the thought of a political union yet and are still in denial about it. They rather quib about fishery and abortion and stuff.
If they were aware of the significance of Lisbon with regards to the above and would be allowed to make an informed decision based on that premise I think their answer would again be 'No'. Same as for most other Europeans.

That's why peoples participation throughout Europe was avoided at all costs.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not against political integration. I just don't like the way its taking shape.

What I'm saying is:
Last time they voted 'No' for all the wrong reasons, this time they will probably have voted 'Yes', again for all the wrong reasons. All the while a true debate over the process of political integration and democracy in a future Europe never happened. And I'm wondering why the hell that is?

OldJay

PaulieD wrote: »

It seems they voted for "jobs", "prosperity" and "recovery". None of which, have anything to do with Lisbon. Oh ho ho I cannot wait to use this as a stick to beat all the major parties with.

As opposed to the following lies?
- Abortion on the way
- Conscription on the way
- Euthanasia to follow
- Commissioner no more
- EU decides Irish taxation policies
- Militarisation of Ireland (a claim in a movement spearheaded by a Defence Contractor :rolleyes:)
- Unemployment will increase post-ratification (yes, a gem)

. . . and of course the lies that Europe has been democratic since 1945 plus the alarmist 'question' of minimum wage being as low as €1.84 designed to get you thinking that minimum wage will be as low as €1.84.

Thanks. Its been fun.

Sam Vimes

realcam wrote: »

What I'm saying is:
Last time they voted 'No' for all the wrong reasons, this time they will probably have voted 'Yes', again for all the wrong reasons. All the while a true debate over the process of political integration and democracy in a future Europe never happened. And I'm wondering why the hell that is?

Personally I think it's because people aren't as bothered about it as you think. I'm quite for political integration and so are a lot of people. There's always a hard core of voters who are against it but they've never been the majority. The EU and political integration has been extremely beneficial for Ireland and most people support it

Boskowski

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Personally I think it's because people aren't as bothered about it as you think. I'm quite for political integration and so are a lot of people. There's always a hard core of voters who are against it but they've never been the majority. The EU and political integration has been extremely beneficial for Ireland and most people support it

Ye, but my point is people give out a lot about Europe. About how Europe brings all those silly laws about how much bended a banana is supposed to be and how it takes away fishery subsidies and so on and so on.

And yet they don't debate about how European political institutions are being reshaped in a way that gives the European Executive a lot more power to do more of that stuff in the future - expand the areas of its responsibilities big time beyond economical matters even - with a lot less parliamentary controls in place than in their home country?

If FF proposed tomorrow that the Dail should only have controlling functions on 'some' legislation and that the cabinet can do a lot of stuff on their own there'd be outrage. But in Europe that's not a bother.

Sam Vimes

realcam wrote: »

Ye, but my point is people give out a lot about Europe. About how Europe brings all those silly laws about how much bended a banana is supposed to be and how it takes away fishery subsidies and so on and so on.

And yet they don't debate about how European political institutions are being reshaped in a way that gives the European Executive a lot more power to do more of that stuff in the future - expand the areas of its responsibilities big time beyond economical matters even - with a lot less parliamentary controls in place than in their home country?

If FF proposed tomorrow that the Dail should only have controlling functions on 'some' legislation and that the cabinet can do a lot of stuff on their own there'd be outrage. But in Europe that's not a bother.

Not to go too far off the point but the bendy bananas thing was made up as a joke by journalists in Brussels :P

And I don't really know what's going on with the fisheries. I'm sure there's some bureaucratic problems but I know the fish would now be extinct if the fishermen were left to their own devices and with misinformation like the 600 billion figure coming out (yes it's 600 now, the real figure is 8.5 in total including the Irish catch), it's hard to know what's going on. Basically people talk about these silly EU rules but usually when you sweep away the misinformation there's a logical basis behind it.

I don't see it being self-evidently better to have every decision made in Leinster House, for a lot of stuff, for example food safety regulations, there's absolutely no need to have them separate and it makes sense to have one central body doing it instead of 27 organisations all doing the same thing

Rebelheart

Europe: 1

British eurosceptics: 0


A success by any standard.

The only pity is that the Yes side has been largely made up of parasitical, conservative and profoundly anglocentric people who have, at best, a remote affinity to the European project. For them, it is all about the money. Mícheál Martin has been a noble exception and a genuine European leader throughout. He has been one of the few patriots who can see clearly that a eurocentric Ireland will be a remarkably more healthy place than the currently profoundly anglocentric Ireland.

The day the Irish start to open their minds to the best examples across Europe and learn from them rather than the current slavish copying of everything British will be a genuine, healthy, open-minded and progressive development in the history of modern Ireland.

That sort of development is, alas, far too radical for most of the 'Yes' voters, never mind those misguided 'No' voters who genuinely believed they were defending Irish freedom by pushing us further away from Europe (and thus, whether they accept it or not, back into that suffocating relationship with Britain).

Rebelheart

The European Union is the best thing to have happened Irish society since the Easter Rising. I want higher standards, I want strong environmental legislation, I want better human rights protection and I welcome EU watchdogs on political performance and spending in Ireland. Most of all, I want more social justice. I want Ireland to move away from its current Thatcherite economic "No such thing as society" model. And yes, I am willing to pay more income tax to achieve this. This motivation is, sadly, a minority on the 'Yes' side in this deeply parochial backwater of British ideas and values.

Boskowski

It's more of a political theory thing I imagine.

Today practically all our western democracies are shaped after the ideas of the great political theorists of the era of elightenment, heading towards the french revolution. These ideas effectively go back to ancient Greece and Rome.

There are a few cornerstones between all those ideas that basically shape all modern western constitutions.

Why are we going away from it in that we're watering down the separation of powers? Why are we cutting down on the powers of the legislative? Why are we cutting down on the independence of the judicative? Why does such a system think it can instate itself without a full-blown legitimation by the people of Europe?

There may be valid reasons for that and maybe there is no malice at all and maybe I'm a tinfoil hat wearer, but why weren't we ever talking about these things? These things are much more important to me than implementation details on abortion. These are the foundations of a supposedly democratic 'best ever' system that will eventually govern all of us. This is what we should be talking about. Not how we get out of the current recession. The recession will be all forgotten about in 50 years. How democratic Europes shape is won't.