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Libertas ad in the Sindo...?

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2

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    #32
    ixtlan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,209 ✭✭✭ixtlan


    finbar10 wrote: »

    There's perhaps some wiggle room here. Maybe with the new wording a QMV voting could in theory push through a commission list, which of course would have to have an Irish national, but the Irish national on it might not be same as the Irish "suggestion"? It could perhaps be an Irish national suggested by other EU countries who objected to the Irish "suggestion"?

    Thanks for the research! Interesting. I have enough confidence in the EU to believe that it means that each state will pick their commissioner, and at worst they may have to find another that would be acceptable.

    Certainly though the phrase is open to some interpretation. It would be interesting to see the treaty translations in other languages to see it the phrase might be clearer.

    Edit: One might even argue that the Irish commisioner need not be Irish... Why should the Irish government not nominate for example Declan Ganley. I don't think it specifies an Irish citizen. So I think realistically one should assume the Irish will get to suggest their own candidate.

    Ix.


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    #33
    Max Power1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,272 ✭✭✭✭Max Power1


    --Kaiser-- wrote: »
    Don't have it to hand but here are some from the Libertas website, pretty much the same;

    Gives exclusive competence to Brussels over International Trade & Foreign Direct Investment

    Halves Ireland’s voting weight while doubling that of Germany

    Creates an unelected President & a Foreign Minister of Europe

    Hands over power in 60 areas of policy to Brussels - on everything from transport to employment and some aspects of foreign policy

    Enshrines EU law as superior to Irish law

    The Treaty can be changed without another referendum

    Diminishes Ireland's power to nominate our European Commissioner - Changes from 'nominate' to 'suggest'

    Cheers
    Thats funny. EU law is already superior to Irish law.


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    #34
    finbar10
    Registered Users Posts: 97 ✭✭finbar10


    ixtlan wrote: »
    Thanks for the research! Interesting. I have enough confidence in the EU to believe that it means that each state will pick their commissioner, and at worst they may have to find another that would be acceptable.

    Certainly though the phrase is open to some interpretation. It would be interesting to see the treaty translations in other languages to see it the phrase might be clearer.

    Edit: One might even argue that the Irish commisioner need not be Irish... Why should the Irish government not nominate for example Declan Ganley. I don't think it specifies an Irish citizen. So I think realistically one should assume the Irish will get to suggest their own candidate.

    Ix.

    It'll likely work the same way in practice. But the wording in Lisbon does seem somewhat weaker to me, less watertight, than the wording in Nice.


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    #35
    Tarobot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 181 ✭✭Tarobot


    Max Power1 wrote: »
    Thats funny. EU law is already superior to Irish law.
    Incorrect through omission. The ECJ rules on EU law and national law that has its origins in EU law. It has no say over Irish law.

    Think of it like 27 teams signing up for a football tournament. No point in every team having their own referee on the pitch at the same time. There wouldn't be any point playing and it would descend into chaos.

    Oh and no one is forcing us to play, but we realise that by playing with the other teams we're better off!

    Edit: while we're on the football analogies, the Lisbon Treaty has 200-odd pages and the FAI rule book has over 600. Yet the Lisbon Treaty is 'totally unreadable and too long' but everyone seems to understand the rules of football.


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    #36
    LookingFor
    Registered Users Posts: 2,682 ✭✭✭LookingFor


    I was hoping this thread would be about a rumoured ad Libertas was preparing for this Sunday's Independent in which they'd apologise and announce that they're disbanding after Friday's yes vote ;):p
    Tarobot wrote: »
    That's funny - you haven't been able to do it once yet.


    Seriously - that is just total nonsense. If the YES side are such good liars, why did someone take it upon themselves to make up a NO poster generator:

    http://www.netsoc.tcd.ie/~theorie/nogenerator/


    Wow, just seeing that green-eyed, red-haired girl ad background again - did she have a tear under her right eye in the original too? :eek:


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    #37
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    finbar10 wrote: »
    It'll likely work the same way in practice. But the wording in Lisbon does seem somewhat weaker to me, less watertight, than the wording in Nice.

    I presume the changed wording has something to do with the fact that the commission was originally supposed to have been reduced in size after Lisbon to two thirds?


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    #38
    smokingman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,740 ✭✭✭smokingman


    LookingFor wrote: »
    Wow, just seeing that green-eyed, red-haired girl ad background again - did she have a tear under her right eye in the original too? :eek:

    Have to admit, I think libertas is actually beginning to get cocky putting that poster up.

    "Hmmm, we don't have any actual facts to support ourselves (us having no policies to begin with), let's put a crying little one that looks like that Maddie girl up with some slogan, sure the Irish will buy any ole lie just like last time"

    :rolleyes:


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    #39
    cornbb
    Registered Users Posts: 6,790 ✭✭✭cornbb


    LookingFor wrote: »
    Wow, just seeing that green-eyed, red-haired girl ad background again - did she have a tear under her right eye in the original too? :eek:

    She is so goddamned creepy. She looks demonic or something. Someone went way overboard with the photoshoppage. And the background looks like the aftermath of a nuclear holocaust.


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    #40
    Max Power1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,272 ✭✭✭✭Max Power1


    Tarobot wrote: »
    Incorrect through omission. The ECJ rules on EU law and national law that has its origins in EU law. It has no say over Irish law.

    Think of it like 27 teams signing up for a football tournament. No point in every team having their own referee on the pitch at the same time. There wouldn't be any point playing and it would descend into chaos.

    Oh and no one is forcing us to play, but we realise that by playing with the other teams we're better off!

    Edit: while we're on the football analogies, the Lisbon Treaty has 200-odd pages and the FAI rule book has over 600. Yet the Lisbon Treaty is 'totally unreadable and too long' but everyone seems to understand the rules of football.
    Perhaps you should actually read the irish constitution then? Article 29 to be precise
    EU law is superior to Irish law. If there is a conflict between the 2, EU law supercedes Irish law


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    #41
    Tarobot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 181 ✭✭Tarobot


    Max Power1 wrote: »
    Perhaps you should actually read the irish constitution then? Article 29 to be precise
    EU law is superior to Irish law. If there is a conflict between the 2, EU law supercedes Irish law
    Yes, but only when the Irish law originates in EU law!

    Are you suggesting that ALL Irish law is superseded by EU law?


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    #42
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Max Power1 wrote: »
    Perhaps you should actually read the irish constitution then? Article 29 to be precise
    EU law is superior to Irish law. If there is a conflict between the 2, EU law supercedes Irish law

    since 1973 .....


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    #43
    Max Power1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,272 ✭✭✭✭Max Power1


    Tarobot wrote: »
    Yes, but only when the Irish law originates in EU law!

    Are you suggesting that ALL Irish law is superseded by EU law?
    when there is a conflict between the 2, yes


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    #44
    Max Power1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,272 ✭✭✭✭Max Power1


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    since 1973 .....
    thats my point!!!!!


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    #45
    Tarobot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 181 ✭✭Tarobot


    Max Power1 wrote: »
    when there is a conflict between the 2, yes
    But that is just incorrect! Why are you lying, or is this what you actually believe and you don't think you're lying?


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    #46
    LookingFor
    Registered Users Posts: 2,682 ✭✭✭LookingFor


    smokingman wrote: »
    Have to admit, I think libertas is actually beginning to get cocky putting that poster up.

    "Hmmm, we don't have any actual facts to support ourselves (us having no policies to begin with), let's put a crying little one that looks like that Maddie girl up with some slogan, sure the Irish will buy any ole lie just like last time"

    :rolleyes:


    So wait, she had the tear in the original too?

    lol, that's facking shameless! That would take the top-spot for me from another flyer ad we got in the door from some no group with a "take a closer look at lisbon" tagline, under a picture of a not unattractive looking girl. This campaign has been so full of awful, awful marketing cliches, like stuff out of the simpsons.


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    #47
    Max Power1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,272 ✭✭✭✭Max Power1


    Tarobot wrote: »
    But that is just incorrect! Why are you lying, or is this what you actually believe and you don't think you're lying?
    did you read article 29 of the constitution of Ireland?
    Heres the link http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/attached_files/Pdf%20files/Constitution%20of%20Ireland.pdf


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    #48
    sceptre
    Registered Users Posts: 19,608 ✭✭✭✭sceptre


    Tarobot wrote: »
    But that is just incorrect! Why are you lying, or is this what you actually believe and you don't think you're lying?
    If he actually believes it to be true, then by definition he can't be lying.


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    #49
    Tarobot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 181 ✭✭Tarobot


    sceptre wrote: »
    If he actually believes it to be true, then by definition he can't be lying.

    That's why I said is he lying or is it just that he believes it to be true...!

    MaxPower1, you are wrong.


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    #50
    Max Power1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,272 ✭✭✭✭Max Power1


    Tarobot wrote: »
    That's why I said is he lying or is it just that he believes it to be true...!

    MaxPower1, you are wrong.
    I would implore you to read the constitution before continuing this


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    #51
    finbar10
    Registered Users Posts: 97 ✭✭finbar10


    marco_polo wrote: »
    I presume the changed wording has something to do with the fact that the commission was originally supposed to have been reduced in size after Lisbon to two thirds?

    That's a good point. Possibly a reason for this. But the Nice treaty does allow for a reduction in the number of commissioners. But admittedly that was because of a later amendment to that effect in the Bulgaria/Romania accession treaty. The original wording wouldn't have envisaged a reduction. But in Lisbon the wording is still the wording regardless of original reasons for it.


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    #52
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    Eu law: Areas in which the EU can Legislate. Much of this is transposed into Irish legislation.

    National Only Legislation: Areas in which EU cannot legislate (Criminal justice, Family Law, Health, Budget, etc).

    I can see why anyone would vote no if they were not aware of this most basic fact.


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    #53
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    Tarobot , EU law does supersede ours and in a conflict it would win but the thing is that when they ratify treaties they make sure there's no conflict. It's only superior in the areas covered by the treaties


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    #54
    Max Power1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,272 ✭✭✭✭Max Power1


    marco_polo wrote: »
    Eu law: Areas in which the EU can Legislate. Much of this is transposed into Irish legislation.

    National Only Legislation: Areas in which EU cannot legislate (Criminal justice, Family Law, Health, Budget, etc).

    I can see why anyone would vote no if they were not aware of this most basic fact.
    i was not saying this was my reasoning to vote no, i was correcting an earlier no voter's inferral that lisbon if passed would make EU law more powerful than irish law


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    #55
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    Max Power1 wrote: »
    i was not saying this was my reasoning to vote no, i was correcting an earlier no voter's inferral that lisbon if passed would make EU law more powerful than irish law

    Apologies, indeed you did. I jumped in with two feet mid conversation :o


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    #56
    Max Power1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,272 ✭✭✭✭Max Power1


    marco_polo wrote: »
    Apologies, indeed you did. I jumped in with two feet mid conversation :o
    no bother :D
    Now if only the Yes and No sides could retract all the lies and misinformation on both sides we would be in business:rolleyes:


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    #57
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    Max Power1 wrote: »
    no bother :D
    Now if only the Yes and No sides could retract all the lies and misinformation on both sides we would be in business:rolleyes:

    But then we'd have nothing to talk about :D


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    #58
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    Vote Yes and the recession will disappear. After all, after the last vote we left the EU (the reason for the recession). Otherwise Spain will invade Ireland for its continued cheek, and enslave us.

    However, if you don't vote No, we will all become enlisted into an army of manic abortionists. Besides which, if you are a socialist, you will want to vote no in order to stay outside of the EU.


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    #59
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    finbar10 wrote:
    There's perhaps some wiggle room here. Maybe with the new wording a QMV voting could in theory push through a commission list, which of course would have to have an Irish national, but the Irish national on it might not be same as the Irish "suggestion"? It could perhaps be an Irish national suggested by other EU countries who objected to the Irish "suggestion"?

    As far as I recall, that's been clarified by the Commission - nobody can put forward the "Irish" Commissioner except Ireland. Have to dig around to find confirmation, though.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #60
    Tarobot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 181 ✭✭Tarobot


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    Tarobot , EU law does supersede ours and in a conflict it would win but the thing is that when they ratify treaties they make sure there's no conflict. It's only superior in the areas covered by the treaties

    Oops, egg on my face. :o

    My sincere apologies MaxPower1, I really thought you were incorrect. It was slightly more complex than I thought. *shakes fist at complicated EU treaties*


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    #61
    finbar10
    Registered Users Posts: 97 ✭✭finbar10


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    As far as I recall, that's been clarified by the Commission - nobody can put forward the "Irish" Commissioner except Ireland. Have to dig around to find confirmation, though.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    The commission clarification would be interesting to see. But I guess the actual meaning of the treaty article would be ultimately up to the European Court to decide rather than the Commission. Suppose a QMV decision is taken on a new commission that doesn't include Ireland's suggestion. Ireland can then appeal this to the ECJ. Only then would we know for certain the actual legality of the matter. This is a situation unlikely to happen in practice. But it's nevertheless an interesting "what if?" situation.


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