Why I want everyone to vote no

The Corinthian

Let me first point out a few things. I'm Irish, but this is not my only nationality or citizenship. I also do not live in Ireland now. Haven't for a while. Not even in the EU. I move around. Moving again next month.

Anyhow the point of all that is to explain that while I have both cultural understanding and national sentiment, I have nothing to gain or lose from this vote directly. There is another reason, which I shall explain at the end.

The Lisbon Treaty is a treaty. The Treaty of Versailles was a treaty (a bad one as it turned out). The Hague convention is sort of a treaty (a good one). So the reality is that unless you're both a diplomat and lawyer (and even then, I would not be so sure), you're not going to figure out what it really means. I suspect no one does really.

But that's the nature of international diplomatic relations - you'll note the international bit, because as much as some would genuinely love to see a USE, it ain't going to happen. You think France wants a union with Germany? I'm not talking a photo-op joint session of their parliaments, I mean the real deal. Poland and Germany? France and the UK? Ha!

Of course it still could happen in time, but outside some major event forcing us all to unite, we will likely be waiting centuries.

A no vote will really piss everyone else off. It's a treaty. Everyone signs them all the time without asking permission from Joe Public. So not signing it now will piss people off. Irish diplomats will have to sit with the British ones at receptions. And any good will (a really important factor in EU negotiation) will be out the window. In such an event, my condolences to any farmers out there.

Of course the UK can be Eurosceptic and it's not harmed them. Other than the fact that Ireland is not on the same level internationally as the UK, the UK did and does suffer from its historically Eurosceptic stance. See how well EFTA panned out for them?

Nonetheless one should look at the people arguing on both sides of the equation. For the yes side, its largely the business and political establishment. Of course establishment also includes the unions, business associations, etc.

The no side is:

• A bunch of Far Left Nutcases. Obvious why they hate the idea. Anything that will make the economy worse is good for them. After all, "a man with a full belly seldom thinks of causing trouble". The revolution ain't going to magically start during an economic boom comrades.
• A Bunch of Nationalist and/or Catholic Nutcases. They've not gone away you know, although the Church has thankfully learned its lesson and avoids them now. Bit of an odd mix of kitchen committees and groups with Hispanic origins. All kinds of everything really.
• Sinn Fein. They're a funny one as they seem to incorporate elements of the previous two groups without actually being in either.
• Declan Ganley. My hero. Seriously. Complete chancer and opportunist. I have no idea what his motivation is (he could be totally genuine or this could be the greatest scam in Irish history) but definitely clued in (unlike the first two groups and frankly SF or the yes side ain't all that clued in either) in the art of getting the message across. He single-handedly defeated the first referendum, but unfortunately this was before people started asking, ahem, questions...

So those are the sides and my take on the treaty, so why do I want everyone to vote no?

The damage of a no vote will diplomatic (which will have consequences in future negotiations) and with business confidence (self fulfilling prophecy, I'm afraid). But how much damage - whether it will result in us returning to the stone age of De Valeran Ireland is a matter for debate. Probably won't be that bad, but it probably will make things worse to some degree and certainly won't improve things for us.. I mean you.

Which is kind of my point. I'd like to buy a house at some stage in Ireland, maybe to retire some day, but I would prefer if the prices could drop some more first.

So please vote no. I reckon its worth at least 20% more off the price of property.

My name is URL

<---- Humour forum is that way

The Corinthian

I'm either putting forward a serious argument directly or a serious argument in a satirical fashion. Either way it is not meant as humour.

Rb

I liked it.
Vote Yes for Jobs.
Vote No for Cheaper Houses.

hatrickpatrick

If this type of posting had come from a no campaigner it would've been locked within mere minutes.

Not saying this should be locked (it shouldn't), just pointing out the discrepancy.

prinz

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

If this type of posting had come from a no campaigner it would've been locked within mere minutes.

Not saying this should be locked (it shouldn't), just pointing out the discrepancy.

We're still mere minutes away, give it time

Riddle101

The Corinthian wrote: »

Let me first point out a few things. I'm Irish, but this is not my only nationality or citizenship. I also do not live in Ireland now. Haven't for a while. Not even in the EU. I move around. Moving again next month.

Anyhow the point of all that is to explain that while I have both cultural understanding and national sentiment, I have nothing to gain or lose from this vote directly. There is another reason, which I shall explain at the end.

The Lisbon Treaty is a treaty. The Treaty of Versailles was a treaty (a bad one as it turned out). The Hague convention is sort of a treaty (a good one). So the reality is that unless you're both a diplomat and lawyer (and even then, I would not be so sure), you're not going to figure out what it really means. I suspect no one does really.

But that's the nature of international diplomatic relations - you'll note the international bit, because as much as some would genuinely love to see a USE, it ain't going to happen. You think France wants a union with Germany? I'm not talking a photo-op joint session of their parliaments, I mean the real deal. Poland and Germany? France and the UK? Ha!

Of course it still could happen in time, but outside some major event forcing us all to unite, we will likely be waiting centuries.

A no vote will really piss everyone else off. It's a treaty. Everyone signs them all the time without asking permission from Joe Public. So not signing it now will piss people off. Irish diplomats will have to sit with the British ones at receptions. And any good will (a really important factor in EU negotiation) will be out the window. In such an event, my condolences to any farmers out there.

Of course the UK can be Eurosceptic and it's not harmed them. Other than the fact that Ireland is not on the same level internationally as the UK, the UK did and does suffer from its historically Eurosceptic stance. See how well EFTA panned out for them?

Nonetheless one should look at the people arguing on both sides of the equation. For the yes side, its largely the business and political establishment. Of course establishment also includes the unions, business associations, etc.


The no side is:

• A bunch of Far Left Nutcases. Obvious why they hate the idea. Anything that will make the economy worse is good for them. After all, "a man with a full belly seldom thinks of causing trouble". The revolution ain't going to magically start during an economic boom comrades.
• A Bunch of Nationalist and/or Catholic Nutcases. They've not gone away you know, although the Church has thankfully learned its lesson and avoids them now. Bit of an odd mix of kitchen committees and groups with Hispanic origins. All kinds of everything really.
• Sinn Fein. They're a funny one as they seem to incorporate elements of the previous two groups without actually being in either.
• Declan Ganley. My hero. Seriously. Complete chancer and opportunist. I have no idea what his motivation is (he could be totally genuine or this could be the greatest scam in Irish history) but definitely clued in (unlike the first two groups and frankly SF or the yes side ain't all that clued in either) in the art of getting the message across. He single-handedly defeated the first referendum, but unfortunately this was before people started asking, ahem, questions...

So those are the sides and my take on the treaty, so why do I want everyone to vote no?

The damage of a no vote will diplomatic (which will have consequences in future negotiations) and with business confidence (self fulfilling prophecy, I'm afraid). But how much damage - whether it will result in us returning to the stone age of De Valeran Ireland is a matter for debate. Probably won't be that bad, but it probably will make things worse to some degree and certainly won't improve things for us.. I mean you.

Which is kind of my point. I'd like to buy a house at some stage in Ireland, maybe to retire some day, but I would prefer if the prices could drop some more first.

So please vote no. I reckon its worth at least 20% more off the price of property.

So you want us to vote no so that you can buy a house here? And people say Micheal O Leary is self serving:rolleyes:

WeeBushy

The Corinthian wrote: »

The Lisbon Treaty is a treaty. The Treaty of Versailles was a treaty (a bad one as it turned out). The Hague convention is sort of a treaty (a good one). So the reality is that unless you're both a diplomat and lawyer (and even then, I would not be so sure), you're not going to figure out what it really means. I suspect no one does really.

That's not really true, you might not understand it, but a lot of people do.

The Corinthian wrote: »

You think France wants a union with Germany? I'm not talking a photo-op joint session of their parliaments, I mean the real deal. Poland and Germany? France and the UK? Ha!

Yes... they do. Why else would they have joined the EU in the first place?

The Corinthian wrote: »

A no vote will really piss everyone else off. It's a treaty. Everyone signs them all the time without asking permission from Joe Public. So not signing it now will piss people off. Irish diplomats will have to sit with the British ones at receptions. And any good will (a really important factor in EU negotiation) will be out the window. In such an event, my condolences to any farmers out there.

Correct me if I'm wrong but it really sounds like you're advocating a no vote just to piss people off. Not very mature.

The Corinthian wrote: »

Of course the UK can be Eurosceptic and it's not harmed them. Other than the fact that Ireland is not on the same level internationally as the UK, the UK did and does suffer from its historically Eurosceptic stance. See how well EFTA panned out for them?

You can't just dismiss one of the fundamental reason why the UK would survive far better than we would without the EU. You can't seriously be claiming that because the UK can be euroskeptic that we would survive as well with such a stance.

The Corinthian wrote: »

The damage of a no vote will diplomatic (which will have consequences in future negotiations) and with business confidence (self fulfilling prophecy, I'm afraid). But how much damage - whether it will result in us returning to the stone age of De Valeran Ireland is a matter for debate. Probably won't be that bad, but it probably will make things worse to some degree and certainly won't improve things for us.. I mean you.

Which is kind of my point. I'd like to buy a house at some stage in Ireland, maybe to retire some day, but I would prefer if the prices could drop some more first.

So please vote no. I reckon its worth at least 20% more off the price of property.

So what I can gather from this is that your main reason for voting no is because you think it'll lower housing prices... right.

Either that or you're being incredibly selfish saying a no vote will damage our economy, lowering house prices, and because you live abroad in a better economy will be able to buy a house here more easily.

free-man

The Corinthian wrote: »

Let me first point out a few things. I'm Irish, but this is not my only nationality or citizenship. I also do not live in Ireland now. Haven't for a while. Not even in the EU. I move around. Moving again next month.

Anyhow the point of all that is to explain that while I have both cultural understanding and national sentiment, I have nothing to gain or lose from this vote directly. There is another reason, which I shall explain at the end.

The Lisbon Treaty is a treaty. The Treaty of Versailles was a treaty (a bad one as it turned out). The Hague convention is sort of a treaty (a good one). So the reality is that unless you're both a diplomat and lawyer (and even then, I would not be so sure), you're not going to figure out what it really means. I suspect no one does really.

But that's the nature of international diplomatic relations - you'll note the international bit, because as much as some would genuinely love to see a USE, it ain't going to happen. You think France wants a union with Germany? I'm not talking a photo-op joint session of their parliaments, I mean the real deal. Poland and Germany? France and the UK? Ha!

Of course it still could happen in time, but outside some major event forcing us all to unite, we will likely be waiting centuries.

A no vote will really piss everyone else off. It's a treaty. Everyone signs them all the time without asking permission from Joe Public. So not signing it now will piss people off. Irish diplomats will have to sit with the British ones at receptions. And any good will (a really important factor in EU negotiation) will be out the window. In such an event, my condolences to any farmers out there.

Of course the UK can be Eurosceptic and it's not harmed them. Other than the fact that Ireland is not on the same level internationally as the UK, the UK did and does suffer from its historically Eurosceptic stance. See how well EFTA panned out for them?

Nonetheless one should look at the people arguing on both sides of the equation. For the yes side, its largely the business and political establishment. Of course establishment also includes the unions, business associations, etc.

The no side is:

• A bunch of Far Left Nutcases. Obvious why they hate the idea. Anything that will make the economy worse is good for them. After all, "a man with a full belly seldom thinks of causing trouble". The revolution ain't going to magically start during an economic boom comrades.
• A Bunch of Nationalist and/or Catholic Nutcases. They've not gone away you know, although the Church has thankfully learned its lesson and avoids them now. Bit of an odd mix of kitchen committees and groups with Hispanic origins. All kinds of everything really.
• Sinn Fein. They're a funny one as they seem to incorporate elements of the previous two groups without actually being in either.
• Declan Ganley. My hero. Seriously. Complete chancer and opportunist. I have no idea what his motivation is (he could be totally genuine or this could be the greatest scam in Irish history) but definitely clued in (unlike the first two groups and frankly SF or the yes side ain't all that clued in either) in the art of getting the message across. He single-handedly defeated the first referendum, but unfortunately this was before people started asking, ahem, questions...

So those are the sides and my take on the treaty, so why do I want everyone to vote no?

The damage of a no vote will diplomatic (which will have consequences in future negotiations) and with business confidence (self fulfilling prophecy, I'm afraid). But how much damage - whether it will result in us returning to the stone age of De Valeran Ireland is a matter for debate. Probably won't be that bad, but it probably will make things worse to some degree and certainly won't improve things for us.. I mean you.

Which is kind of my point. I'd like to buy a house at some stage in Ireland, maybe to retire some day, but I would prefer if the prices could drop some more first.

So please vote no. I reckon its worth at least 20% more off the price of property.

Do you really have nothing better to do than misrepresent yourself as someone from the No side?

w00t

The Corinthian wrote: »

Let me first point out a few things. I'm Irish, but this is not my only nationality or citizenship. I also do not live in Ireland now. Haven't for a while. Not even in the EU. I move around. Moving again next month.

Anyhow the point of all that is to explain that while I have both cultural understanding and national sentiment, I have nothing to gain or lose from this vote directly. There is another reason, which I shall explain at the end.

The Lisbon Treaty is a treaty. The Treaty of Versailles was a treaty (a bad one as it turned out). The Hague convention is sort of a treaty (a good one). So the reality is that unless you're both a diplomat and lawyer (and even then, I would not be so sure), you're not going to figure out what it really means. I suspect no one does really.

But that's the nature of international diplomatic relations - you'll note the international bit, because as much as some would genuinely love to see a USE, it ain't going to happen. You think France wants a union with Germany? I'm not talking a photo-op joint session of their parliaments, I mean the real deal. Poland and Germany? France and the UK? Ha!

Of course it still could happen in time, but outside some major event forcing us all to unite, we will likely be waiting centuries.

A no vote will really piss everyone else off. It's a treaty. Everyone signs them all the time without asking permission from Joe Public. So not signing it now will piss people off. Irish diplomats will have to sit with the British ones at receptions. And any good will (a really important factor in EU negotiation) will be out the window. In such an event, my condolences to any farmers out there.

Of course the UK can be Eurosceptic and it's not harmed them. Other than the fact that Ireland is not on the same level internationally as the UK, the UK did and does suffer from its historically Eurosceptic stance. See how well EFTA panned out for them?

Nonetheless one should look at the people arguing on both sides of the equation. For the yes side, its largely the business and political establishment. Of course establishment also includes the unions, business associations, etc.

The no side is:

• A bunch of Far Left Nutcases. Obvious why they hate the idea. Anything that will make the economy worse is good for them. After all, "a man with a full belly seldom thinks of causing trouble". The revolution ain't going to magically start during an economic boom comrades.
• A Bunch of Nationalist and/or Catholic Nutcases. They've not gone away you know, although the Church has thankfully learned its lesson and avoids them now. Bit of an odd mix of kitchen committees and groups with Hispanic origins. All kinds of everything really.
• Sinn Fein. They're a funny one as they seem to incorporate elements of the previous two groups without actually being in either.
• Declan Ganley. My hero. Seriously. Complete chancer and opportunist. I have no idea what his motivation is (he could be totally genuine or this could be the greatest scam in Irish history) but definitely clued in (unlike the first two groups and frankly SF or the yes side ain't all that clued in either) in the art of getting the message across. He single-handedly defeated the first referendum, but unfortunately this was before people started asking, ahem, questions...

So those are the sides and my take on the treaty, so why do I want everyone to vote no?

The damage of a no vote will diplomatic (which will have consequences in future negotiations) and with business confidence (self fulfilling prophecy, I'm afraid). But how much damage - whether it will result in us returning to the stone age of De Valeran Ireland is a matter for debate. Probably won't be that bad, but it probably will make things worse to some degree and certainly won't improve things for us.. I mean you.

Which is kind of my point. I'd like to buy a house at some stage in Ireland, maybe to retire some day, but I would prefer if the prices could drop some more first.

So please vote no. I reckon its worth at least 20% more off the price of property.

Brilliant. Really enjoyed that. Possibly the most honest. non agenda, post I have read here in the last few weeks. Your post mirrors a conversation that took place in a kitchen I was in about an hour ago. Minus that part about cheaper housing.

I look forward to ei.sboard or what ever its name is bombarding you with links debunking your post as they just "won't get" it

The Corinthian

WeeBushy wrote: »

That's not really true, you might not understand it, but a lot of people do.

Nope, a lot of people think they do, but I suspect that very few understand it all, although there would be many who have a deeper understanding of parts of it.

But Joe Public doesn't and never really will, which is kind of the point.

Yes... they do. Why else would they have joined the EU in the first place?

There's a jump in logic - how did you arrive at that blinding insight?

Correct me if I'm wrong but it really sounds like you're advocating a no vote just to piss people off. Not very mature.

I'm not. That it'll piss people off is an inevitable consiquence, everyone agrees on this. Where did you get how I'm advocating a no vote just to piss people off though?

You can't just dismiss one of the fundamental reason why the UK would survive far better than we would without the EU. You can't seriously be claiming that because the UK can be euroskeptic that we would survive as well with such a stance.

I didn't. Read the passage again.

Either that or you're being incredibly selfish saying a no vote will damage our economy, lowering house prices, and because you live abroad in a better economy will be able to buy a house here more easily.

Give the boy a cigar.

So either this was the satirical punchline or I'm serious. I'm not telling.

turgon

I love when satire goes over peoples heads

Anyway, very enjoyable post. Its good in that your "stance" is the same as most No campaigners in that there is probably an underlying agenda, although unlike you and your house they aren't so open about it.

Rb

Why am I not surprised that went straight over certain people's heads?

The Corinthian

free-man wrote: »

Do you really have nothing better to do than misrepresent yourself as someone from the No side?

Touchy. You're not invited to my housewarming.

hatrickpatrick

The Corinthian wrote: »

The no side is:

• A bunch of Far Left Nutcases. Obvious why they hate the idea. Anything that will make the economy worse is good for them. After all, "a man with a full belly seldom thinks of causing trouble". The revolution ain't going to magically start during an economic boom comrades.
• A Bunch of Nationalist and/or Catholic Nutcases. They've not gone away you know, although the Church has thankfully learned its lesson and avoids them now. Bit of an odd mix of kitchen committees and groups with Hispanic origins. All kinds of everything really.
• Sinn Fein. They're a funny one as they seem to incorporate elements of the previous two groups without actually being in either.
• Declan Ganley. My hero. Seriously. Complete chancer and opportunist. I have no idea what his motivation is (he could be totally genuine or this could be the greatest scam in Irish history) but definitely clued in (unlike the first two groups and frankly SF or the yes side ain't all that clued in either) in the art of getting the message across. He single-handedly defeated the first referendum, but unfortunately this was before people started asking, ahem, questions...

So those are the sides and my take on the treaty, so why do I want everyone to vote no?

The yes side includes Fianna Fail. So I guess by your logic I should vote no since I don't agree with them and they are corrupt nutcases in my view?

WeeBushy

Oh... I get satire.

w00t

ei.sdraob wrote: »

I hope you never have to read a history book

Not that brought out a genuine LOL out of me

Something tells me he did have to during his life time

oscarBravo

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

If this type of posting had come from a no campaigner it would've been locked within mere minutes.

Not saying this should be locked (it shouldn't), just pointing out the discrepancy.

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055627762

P. Breathnach

free-man wrote: »

Do you really have nothing better to do than misrepresent yourself as someone from the No side?

Haven't you been doing that?

The Corinthian

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The yes side includes Fianna Fail. So I guess by your logic I should vote no since I don't agree with them and they are corrupt nutcases in my view?

Sure, why not? I did touch on the political establishment and we all know what they're like.

Actually I think both sides are dreadful. Except Declan Ganley. I was serious about him. Love him or loath him he proved to be far more politically competent in the last referendum than anyone else on either side - like Michael O'Leary; total bastard, until you have to pay for flights in region where Ryanair didn't drive the price down.

w00t wrote: »

Not that brought out a genuine LOL out of me

LOL. Me too. Looks like he decided to delete the post. Sometimes I wonder if some out there are not actually just the best poster boys for Intelligent Design.

bonkey

The Corinthian wrote: »

But Joe Public doesn't and never really will, which is kind of the point.

Is it?

Without detracting from your aspirations as a property mogul, could I ask why Joe Public should understand the Treaty?

Before everyone gets all outraged....

Joe Public doesn't understand half the laws of the land. He doesn't understand the economics behind budgets. There is, bluntly put, an absolute ****load of stuff that the government takes care of that Joe Public doesn't understand.

Joe Public, however, elects that government.

Joe Public is not being asked to ratify the Lisbon Treaty. Joe Public isn't being asked to understand the Lisbon Treaty. Joe Public is being asked to give the government permission to act on his behalf with regard to the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty, and to allow the alteration of the Constitution to that effect.

There are any number of valid reasons why Joe might agree or disagree to that, only some of which would require an understanding of the Treaty...and even fewer have anything to do with Corinthian Properties Inc.

So honestly...is Joe Pubic's lack of understanding really the point?

<edited to change ***** to Corinthian...stupid swear filter>

ei.sdraob

The Corinthian wrote: »

LOL. Me too. Looks like he decided to delete the post. Sometimes I wonder if some out there are not actually just the best poster boys for Intelligent Design.

i got all mad, but then i seen the light!

you made a NO voter out of me

:eek:

Quality

You usually put forward a good argument OP.. So thought I would have a look to see if your post was going to sway my decision.....

Stupid reverse psychology!!

free-man

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Haven't you been doing that?

I've no idea what your talking about. I've posted many reasons for voting no, it's not exactly a secret.

metrovelvet

The most alluring point here about voting no is thinking about the Irish diplomats being sent to sit at the kiddie table with the Brits.

SkepticOne

The argument presented in a satirical way is that the consequence of voting No is isolation from EU countries wanting a Yes vote and the possible economic consequences of that.

Fairly obvious you are going to piss off the likes of France and what have you if you vote against them. Most people realise this. However I suspect that Ireland has always been at the kids table when it comes influencing Europe. I remember reading somewhere that the strategy of Irish negotiators is to hang back and let the core EU countries hammer out the main deal. After that we Irish step in and try for whatever concessions we can get. Nobody cares what we think one way or the other except that we have a veto on certain issues and a vote on certain others. We never have had the sort of influence France or Germany has and never will.

In the event that there is a no vote, therefore, I would expect a bit of posturing from the French and perhaps one or two other countries, but that this would die down after a few months. They will still need us to agree to things and vote in particular ways. That will not change.

The Corinthian will get his 20% reduction in house prices but he's probably going to get that anyway due to economic mismanagement and a likely rise in Euro interest rates next year as the economies of Germany and France improve.

metrovelvet

^ thats true, we dont matter that much anyway, why would a no vote piss them off?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

jotom

i could be wrong but i think yer all missing the point, cause i don't think yer observing the landscape behind the mona.

Sam Vimes

The Corinthian wrote: »

So either this was the satirical punchline or I'm serious. I'm not telling.

Either way you've given me a silver lining in the event of a no vote. I'd prefer a yes of course but I'm looking into buying a house and I could do with 20% off. You nearly had me swayed good sir :pac:

P. Breathnach

free-man wrote: »

I've no idea what your talking about. I've posted many reasons for voting no, it's not exactly a secret.

Of course you don't understand: this is the irony thread.