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Electric cars.
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Where are you getting your stats on "most motorists"?
Personally, if I ever had to buy a car, I would like to buy a small urban electric car and rent a diesel/petrol car for any long journeys that I decide to make. The cheaper cost of purchasing/running a smaller, more efficient, more environmentally friendly car would more than cover the rental cost on those odd occasions.
I am working from the following numbers, average mileage in ireland is 12,000 miles a year... average daily commute, 5 days a week @ 20 miles a day is only 7200 miles a year, thats 4800 miles in other driving besides daily commutes.
In ireland the electric cars aren't that more enviromentally friendly, due to our electricity supply being a big pollutant.
Rental Cars, ahh yes.... use them at weekends, so have to travel to rental depot, fill in paperwork and wait for car, then when finished have to return it, queue and wait for transport home... all of which adds an extra 1hour to the already short weekend... no thanks...
Especially as I like a lot of people outside Dublin, don't have access to proper public transport, so getting to a car rental location is not practical on a short weekend...
no more as efficient as buy a battery laden car for day to day commutes, and having to have a second car built for the odd extra day you will need it... that actually seems to be completely UN green to me....To buy a car whose full capacity you would only use a few times a year is very inefficient.
also with a petrol car if full capcity can be spread out over weeks...
For an eletric car to be successful, it has to be as good as, the standard petrol/diesel car.....0 -
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Can you provide sources for these stats?I am working from the following numbers, average mileage in ireland is 12,000 miles a year... average daily commute, 5 days a week @ 20 miles a day is only 7200 miles a year, thats 4800 miles in other driving besides daily commutes.
Actually, we're up to approx. 12% renewables in our electricity. Also, improvements in efficiency and carbon intensity of electricity permeates the electric car fleet almost immediately, compared to standard fuel cars that need 10-15 years or even longer to take full effect (time it takes for national fleet to be replaced)In ireland the electric cars aren't that more enviromentally friendly, due to our electricity supply being a big pollutant.
This is definitely an issue. Other cities have car rental schemes very similar to the bike rental schemes where a yearly membership card means quick access to rental cars. ie car clubs.Especially as I like a lot of people outside Dublin, don't have access to proper public transport, so getting to a car rental location is not practical on a short weekend...
Well there is always the option of a PHEV.no more as efficient as buy a battery laden car for day to day commutes, and having to have a second car built for the odd extra day you will need it... that actually seems to be completely UN green to me....
also with a petrol car if full capcity can be spread out over weeks...
Well..bring in things like carbon taxes it might change the landscape a bit.For an eletric car to be successful, it has to be as good as, the standard petrol/diesel car.....0 -
its a commuter car...
thats correct, the fluence has replaceable batteries for quick swap technology. Note the average commute in Ireland is 16KM ( esri source )that uses dirty electricity.
It uses electricity .. the grid can be cleaned up and when it is everything that uses it is cleaned up also.
Irrespective of that, using electricity from the dirtiest coal fired power station is greener than using a standard internal combustion engine. FACT0 -
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You might need an alternative, but that alternative does not necessarily involve the purchase of a second car.the car doesn't work as a normal car... its a commuter car... that uses dirty electricity, and you would need a second petrol or diesel car for when you not commuting to work or shops, and that not very green either is it....
Because your dismissal is based on your assumption that an electric vehicle would not work for you and is therefore completely useless.So please tell me... why my dismissal of this car is not right.
Smaller vehicles tend to do considerably less than that. And besides, that’s just the average.I am working from the following numbers, average mileage in ireland is 12,000 miles a year...
Or you could save yourself a whole load of hassle and book online? Any car hire depot that takes an hour to fix it’s customers up with a car isn’t going to stay in business very long.Rental Cars, ahh yes.... use them at weekends, so have to travel to rental depot, fill in paperwork and wait for car, then when finished have to return it, queue and wait for transport home... all of which adds an extra 1hour to the already short weekend...
And what about all the people who do live in Dublin? More than 10% of the population of the entire country lives within the administrative district of Dublin City – no market for an EV there at all?Especially as I like a lot of people outside Dublin, don't have access to proper public transport, so getting to a car rental location is not practical on a short weekend...
Only if the price is similar. Suppose an electric car is cheaper than a petrol/diesel car?For an eletric car to be successful, it has to be as good as, the standard petrol/diesel car.....0 -
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Such As???You might need an alternative, but that alternative does not necessarily involve the purchase of a second car.Because your dismissal is based on your assumption that an electric vehicle would not work for you and is therefore completely useless.
My assumption is based on the real world and mr. average driver. and to back up my point, I have sales figures.... if the electric car suited the majority of people, people would buy it... guess what people aren't buying it because it doesn't work for them...Smaller vehicles tend to do considerably less than that. And besides, that’s just the average.
Yes an average, for an average person, I am saying for the average joe soap the electric car doesn't fulfill all there needs, therefore it won't work.
Yes there are people who the electric car would work for, I don't deny that and if i was one of them I would have one in a heart beat.Or you could save yourself a whole load of hassle and book online? Any car hire depot that takes an hour to fix it’s customers up with a car isn’t going to stay in business very long.
Really.... so can you tell me how long it would take the average person, to 1. book online,
2. on the saturday morning find transport into the rental branch
3. Fill out paperwork
4. Get car and return home to pick up items needed for trip
5. on return trip drive out of there way to the rental branch
6. return car, wait for it to be inspected
7. Find transport home and use to get home.
If you think all that takes less than an hour... well enough said...
So are you saying electric cars are only suitable for 10% of the population??? which would be not the majority of drivers or the average joe soap then...And what about all the people who do live in Dublin? More than 10% of the population of the entire country lives within the administrative district of Dublin City – no market for an EV there at all?
Won't make a blind bit of difference... people will only buy them if they work for all their needs...Only if the price is similar. Suppose an electric car is cheaper than a petrol/diesel car?
take the REVA for example.... cost to Buy €11,500 ..... great savings to be made by using one...
cheaper than some super mini cars.... does it sell????? ehhhh NO I think is the answer.0 -
replaceable batteries.... don't get me wrong is a faboulous idea.... but at the moment impratical... because each manufacturere uses different types arrangements ect... so stations would need to hold many different types... while petrol is the same in every station..thats correct, the fluence has replaceable batteries for quick swap technology. Note the average commute in Ireland is 16KM ( esri source )
Yes the Grid can be cleaned up.... but the problem is, thats its not clean... so puching this cars as enviromentally perfect is a load of crap here in Ireland...It uses electricity .. the grid can be cleaned up and when it is everything that uses it is cleaned up also.
Irrespective of that, using electricity from the dirtiest coal fired power station is greener than using a standard internal combustion engine. FACT
A Blog... sorry if I don't even bother reading it.
I do agree that the ev cars are cleaner, I never said they wern't , all I said was they wheren't very green....
for example a nissan Leaf under our Electricity supply grid emits at source 83g of CO2 per mile, this does not take into account any other factors except generating eleccy for the car charge.
and a smart cabrio is rated at 88g CO2 per KM....
Seriously not a good saving....
and please work out the calcs for yourself from a single coal fired station... I bet the smart car wins;)0 -
I got info from a few sources, like SEI and that, let me see if I can dig it out again.Can you provide sources for these stats?
As per previous post...Actually, we're up to approx. 12% renewables in our electricity. Also, improvements in efficiency and carbon intensity of electricity permeates the electric car fleet almost immediately, compared to standard fuel cars that need 10-15 years or even longer to take full effect (time it takes for national fleet to be replaced)
Nissan leaf... 83g per KM...... Smart Cabrio 88g per KM....
sucks doesn't it...
how long before we are 100% renewable?? or even 50% renewable?? takes a long time as well to change our electricity generating habits as well...
I fail to see how having a membership to a car rental club will help peopl who live say 15 miles from the rental location, with no transport to get there to pick up a car...This is definitely an issue. Other cities have car rental schemes very similar to the bike rental schemes where a yearly membership card means quick access to rental cars. ie car clubs.
it is a burning issue.
yep, and thats a great option, I do like these options.Well there is always the option of a PHEV.
but we are talking full EV car in this thread..Well..bring in things like carbon taxes it might change the landscape a bit.
So let me get this right, what you are saying is, because people aren't buying them, probably because they don't suit them, we should force and bully them into buying them.......
Sorry but I thought we had freedom of choice here in this country0 -
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As per previous post...
Nissan leaf... 83g per KM...... Smart Cabrio 88g per KM....
sucks doesn't it...
how long before we are 100% renewable?? or even 50% renewable?? takes a long time as well to change our electricity generating habits as well...
It's not as simple as that. What circumstances were those stats found - are they averages and if so, averages of what? What % of renewables was assumed?
Our national target is 40% renewables by 2020.
Oh sure, they won't suit everyone. But that doesn't mean they won't work for some people.I fail to see how having a membership to a car rental club will help peopl who live say 15 miles from the rental location, with no transport to get there to pick up a car...
So you think a carbon tax is bullying. You think internalising the cost that is currently externalised to tax payers, even those like me who cycle everywhere is acceptable? Why should I pay for the carbon credits of someone who runs around town in an SUV for no good reason? Carbon taxes are about the polluter paying.So let me get this right, what you are saying is, because people aren't buying them, probably because they don't suit them, we should force and bully them into buying them.......
Sorry but I thought we had freedom of choice here in this country
They are also preferable to subsidies, IMO.0 -
It's not as simple as that. What circumstances were those stats found - are they averages and if so, averages of what? What % of renewables was assumed?
Our national target is 40% renewables by 2020.
Yes it is, that simple.... please explain otherwise...
either the Leaf produces this amount of pollution or it doesn't
likewise, either the smart car produces this amount of pollution or it doesn't
Stats are from the ESB and Smart manufacturer..... so I would say they are fairly reliable....
I never said they wouldn't work for some people, just as a whole they don't suit the average motorist right now.Oh sure, they won't suit everyone. But that doesn't mean they won't work for some people.So you think a carbon tax is bullying. You think internalising the cost that is currently externalised to tax payers, even those like me who cycle everywhere is acceptable? Why should I pay for the carbon credits of someone who runs around town in an SUV for no good reason? Carbon taxes are about the polluter paying.
They are also preferable to subsidies, IMO.
YES.... the way you put it forward....
Motorists contribute billions a year already in taxes... from VRT to Annual Road taxes, Taxes on insurance premiums, taxes and custom duty on petrol and diesel....
They are already paying for their polluting... why should motorists pay more for a sham tax... and lets be honest it is a sham.. there is nothig green about the tax, the tax its there to raise money for the government... be all and end all
EV cars already are cheaper to run... but still no-one buys them, why will this tax make a difference0 -
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Peak Oil , is just the peak of CHEAP OIL. Alberta Oil Sands / Ocean Floor Methane Hydrates / Coal / Oil left in the wells are very abundant.quentingargan wrote: »The age of Peak Oil has well and truly arrived, and they simply can't pump it out of the ground at any faster rate than we are doing at present, and indeed the flow is probably going to decline by 3% per annum in the coming years. This is complicated by countries like India and China wanting their share of the stuff.
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. I would hope that our public transport network will grow to the point that taking the car to Cork would be unthinkable. At €72 per person for the train ticket, we're a bit off that at the moment. :mad:
€72 Dublin to Cork :eek:
€44 Train+Ferry from any UK station to Dublin , One ticket works on Arriva , Virgin , [ Irish ferries OR Stenna ] and the other train operators.
Of course to get from Dun Laoghaire to Home you have to catch a DART to Connelly , a LUAS to O'Connell Street and then a Dublin Bus , three different tickets :rolleyes:0 -
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I didn't say they weren't reliable but the CO2 produced depends on the renewable energy mix in the electricity the distance and speeds used - this is basic stuff.Yes it is, that simple.... please explain otherwise...
either the Leaf produces this amount of pollution or it doesn't
likewise, either the smart car produces this amount of pollution or it doesn't
Stats are from the ESB and Smart manufacturer..... so I would say they are fairly reliable....
Who is the average motorist? I'm still waiting for a source on your stats.I never said they wouldn't work for some people, just as a whole they don't suit the average motorist right now.
Let's be honest - if you're going to call it a sham, why don't you explain your position. Simply calling it a sham does not make it so. The "polluter pays" principle has been part of the EU since the 1970s and one that we have adopted ourselves with waste charges based on weight, rather than blanket charges. Motorists contribute a lot but they do not cover what they cost and there are significant costs to motoring that many motorists seem to prefer to ignore. I ask again: why should I, someone why cycles everywhere, pay for the cost of the carbon emitted by someone who drives everywhere? I don't pay for your petrol, I don't pay for your car, I don't pay for your food or electricity - why should I pay for your carbon?Motorists contribute billions a year already in taxes... from VRT to Annual Road taxes, Taxes on insurance premiums, taxes and custom duty on petrol and diesel....
They are already paying for their polluting... why should motorists pay more for a sham tax... and lets be honest it is a sham.. there is nothig green about the tax, the tax its there to raise money for the government... be all and end all
And I have to say, I'm really tired of motorists calling it a "road tax" it isn't: it's a motor tax.
Because they cost more up front and the charging infrastructure is not in place.EV cars already are cheaper to run... but still no-one buys them, why will this tax make a difference0 -
Yes it is, that simple.... please explain otherwise...
either the Leaf produces this amount of pollution or it doesn't
likewise, either the smart car produces this amount of pollution or it doesn't
Stats are from the ESB and Smart manufacturer..... so I would say they are fairly reliable....
We are at the start of the move to electrical vehicles, this is to allow us the ability to clean up our emmissions and to avoid the inevitable rise in oil prices.
The first electrical vehicles will not suit everyone, in fact may not suit the average motorist. No one is forcing anyone to buy these. But as they become more popular and cheaper the appeal of legacy internal combustion engines will diminish.
Just as the move from horses to cars met with scepticism and resistance, the future is electric - you can change now or later, but you will change.0 -
I didn't say they weren't reliable but the CO2 produced depends on the renewable energy mix in the electricity the distance and speeds used - this is basic stuff.
Your right it is basic stuff. so whats hard to understand that driving an electric car in ireland right now produces 550g pf CO2 per KWH... thats at our current renewable energy mix... so driving an ev car like the LEaf produces 83g/km..... seriously easy stuff here..
Please re-read my post... I go the figures from the ESB and Smart Car.. I was infering they where reliable sources. not the products.Who is the average motorist? I'm still waiting for a source on your stats.
Stats here for average miles on SEI
http://www.sei.ie/energymap/transport/commitLet's be honest - if you're going to call it a sham, why don't you explain your position. Simply calling it a sham does not make it so. The "polluter pays" principle has been part of the EU since the 1970s and one that we have adopted ourselves with waste charges based on weight, rather than blanket charges. Motorists contribute a lot but they do not cover what they cost and there are significant costs to motoring that many motorists seem to prefer to ignore. I ask again: why should I, someone why cycles everywhere, pay for the cost of the carbon emitted by someone who drives everywhere? I don't pay for your petrol, I don't pay for your car, I don't pay for your food or electricity - why should I pay for your carbon?
And I have to say, I'm really tired of motorists calling it a "road tax" it isn't: it's a motor tax.
why is it sham... 2 reasons,
1.the high taxs already put on motorists to drive, should cover their carbon outputs,
2. lets be honest.. the money recieved is not going on credits or other green things, it will be used to bolster the economy...
thats why its a sham...
Yes lets call it a motor tax... thats just splitting hairs.Because they cost more up front and the charging infrastructure is not in place.
But you can charge from home... thats not a big infrastructure change..
no they don't cost more.... thats horse crap... read my earlier post about the cost of a reva ......0 -
We are at the start of the move to electrical vehicles, this is to allow us the ability to clean up our emmissions and to avoid the inevitable rise in oil prices.
The first electrical vehicles will not suit everyone, in fact may not suit the average motorist. No one is forcing anyone to buy these. But as they become more popular and cheaper the appeal of legacy internal combustion engines will diminish.
Just as the move from horses to cars met with scepticism and resistance, the future is electric - you can change now or later, but you will change.
Zod, I am 100% behind you on the part that electric cars are the future ...
and look forward to it...
But at this moment in time... like now... they are not green, they are no more enviromentally friendly than a good equilivant petrol/diesel car...
they cannot do what a normal cars does in terms of distance and ease of use, i.e filling up vs recharging.
can i ask a question.... do you own a car??? what is it?0 -
OTThe "polluter pays" principle has been part of the EU since the 1970s and one that we have adopted ourselves with waste charges based on weight, rather than blanket charges.
To be honest this is not a good argument, once they put the PBW and people started recycling more they increased the blanket charges and started charging people to recycle.
Instead of tackling the problem at source and demanding that packaging be reduced at the point of sale.
Thats what Repak is there for, to shelter pollution causing companies from having to take the stuff back from the consumer.0 -
That's just the target for ESB workers! As you know, earlier this year Eamon Ryan set a target of 10% of all private vehicles to be electric by 2020. This will amount to around 230,000 EVs by 2020!!! Replacing those 60,000 cars that only do short trips will not bring us anywhere near the target. Given the average age of vehicles in the country, we would need to be buying 23,000 EVs per year from now until then to achieve it. (Total new car sales this year will only be around 60,000). This is completely unrealistic given the current state of technology and infrastructure.quentingargan wrote: »The plan in Ireland is to have about 6,000 cars electric initially. They don't do everything that your petrol car can do, but there are at least 60,000 cars out there that never ever do more than 50 miles a day.
The primary aim of this 10% EV target according to the Green Party is to reduce GHG emissions. Private cars are responsible for 7.5% of greenhouse gases in Ireland. Even if the target were achievable, replacing 10% of cars with EVs will only reduce GHGs by about 0.3%, given that the cars you're removing are the the smaller ones anyway and you're still consuming electricity. So achieving the 10% target will have little effect on our emissions. The policy is all rather pointless really...
....unless one is selling EVs.0 -
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You really haven't addressed the logic of the argument for polluter pays. What you're talking about is bad implementation. Where are people being charged to recycle, (unless they decide to go private)?To be honest this is not a good argument, once they put the PBW and people started recycling more they increased the blanket charges and started charging people to recycle.
At the point of sale?Instead of tackling the problem at source and demanding that packaging be reduced at the point of sale.
REPAK is the exact opposite of the polluter pays principle, IMO.Thats what Repak is there for, to shelter pollution causing companies from having to take the stuff back from the consumer.0 -
no VRT on electric cars would be a great start0
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no VRT on electric cars would be a great start
Electric cars and bikes are exempt from VRT until 31.12.2010 - order your Tesla now!
There is a long waiting list (up to two years) - might be too late even now:mad:
www.teslamotors.com0 -
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Just on the subject of electric vehicles in Europe, the German post office ran a fleet of electric Opel combo vans and Mercedes vans in and around Bremen fitted with zinc-air batteries back in the mid 90's.
The vehicles showed promising range, and the batteries were swapped out of the vans automatically and replaced by fully charged ones at the end of each shift.
I remember reading it in Commercial motor at the time, probably not the answer for the family car though as the battery charging and replacement unit was quite specialised. The technology was more like a type of fuel cell than batteries in the traditional sense, IIRC.0 -
Electric cars and bikes are exempt from VRT until 31.12.2010 - order your Tesla now!
There is a long waiting list (up to two years) - might be too late even now:mad:
www.teslamotors.com
yes what better way to spalsh out 50k
buy a small eco friendly diesel car.... much better for the enviroment0 -
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Driving up/down ramps would be a recipe for disaster. Have you seen the state of some people's driving?
Driving into a bay similar to a car-wash type set-up (without the brushes naturally) could be an alternative runner though0 -
Having watched "Who Killed the Electric Car", I say GM is the only thing stopping electric cars. Stan Ovshinsky pioneered a new battery, but GM bought controlling shares of his company, and stopped him from going public with it.Capt'n Midnight wrote: »The ONLY thing stopping electric cars replacing the internal combustion engine are poor batteries.
Also, they note how much the oil companies financed anti-electric-car groups in California. It's in their interests to see the electric car fail.0 -
If you look at the life cycle CO2 emissions of an electric car versus a good modern diesel car, the diesel car wins at the moment.
Firstly electricity is mainly generated by the burning of fossil fuels.
Coal fired plants are generally 40% efficient with gas being better(have the figures some where) , then you have a loss of power over the transmission system.
So generally an electric car will produce more CO2 per kilometre than a diesel.
Then if you take the CO2 to produce the batteries for the electric car plus the car and compare that to the CO2 for the diesel, the modern diesel is better for the enviroment.
In short tho to make electric cars viable they need to sort out the way electricity is generated in the country0 -
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CptMackey, do you have sources for these claims?
Also, what about other forms of pollution, not just CO2?0 -
If you look at the life cycle CO2 emissions of an electric car versus a good modern diesel car, the diesel car wins at the moment.
Firstly electricity is mainly generated by the burning of fossil fuels.
Coal fired plants are generally 40% efficient with gas being better(have the figures some where) , then you have a loss of power over the transmission system.
So generally an electric car will produce more CO2 per kilometre than a diesel.
I am sorry but thats horsecarp...
An EV produces less CO2 at source (i.e generating station) in Ireland than any Diesel....
Using the figures from the ESb on the amount of Co2 emmisions for every KWH produced ... working out how much KWH an EV car does per Km and compare it to a Diesel.
as per my previous example, the Nissan leaf, standard EV, produces 83g Co2 per Km..... name a diesel that does better ???0 -
If you look at the life cycle CO2 emissions of an electric car versus a good modern diesel car, the diesel car wins at the moment.
Firstly electricity is mainly generated by the burning of fossil fuels.
Coal fired plants are generally 40% efficient with gas being better(have the figures some where) , then you have a loss of power over the transmission system.
So generally an electric car will produce more CO2 per kilometre than a diesel.
Then if you take the CO2 to produce the batteries for the electric car plus the car and compare that to the CO2 for the diesel, the modern diesel is better for the enviroment.
In short tho to make electric cars viable they need to sort out the way electricity is generated in the country
This is not true. Energy efficiency is not a problem for electric vehicles. Even the high performance Tesla that probe mentions has an efficiency of 0.11kWh per km (source). Using Irish electricity emissions figures and accounting for transmission losses this would be equivalent to aroung 55g/km. What diesel engine currently matches this?
Emissions are not the issue. A bicycle creates zero emissions - but that won't make it a viable alternative for most kilometres traveled.0 -
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Here's one of the big problems that needs to be tackled though:
California’s Push for Electric Cars May Raise Costs for Power0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfdYU7gk8fs
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