Electric cars.

cards

Why is there not any decent electric cars available in europe? Is it some kind of a conspiracy theory with the people supplying oil paying the large car manufactures not to bring them out? I know it sounds a little ludicrous as they can hardly bribe 10 or so big companies but citroen had two ev's out before 2000 and not alone has this technology not been expanded on it's not being manufactured anymore! This ev was on bbc on sunday night and looks like a great car but is not in europe yet. http://evme.com.au/

I just wish toyota or someone would get up off their ass and do something and stop messing about with hybrids. I want an ev!

CJhaughey

cards wrote: »

Why is there not any decent electric cars available in europe? Is it some kind of a conspiracy theory with the people supplying oil paying the large car manufactures not to bring them out? I know it sounds a little ludicrous as they can hardly bribe 10 or so big companies but citroen had two ev's out before 2000 and not alone has this technology not been expanded on it's not being manufactured anymore! This ev was on bbc on sunday night and looks like a great car but is not in europe yet. http://evme.com.au/

I just wish toyota or someone would get up off their ass and do something and stop messing about with hybrids. I want an ev!

Why? The electricity in this state is primarily generated from burning fossil fuels anyway so when you plug in your Electric car it is using Coal to recharge it's batteries.
Maybe it makes you feel better that it is electric but it won't make any difference practically to Co2 emissions.

robtri

if you want an ev then go buy one, if you don't like the ones in Europe, import one

The reason you don't see many, is bacause there is virtually no demand for these types of cars...

the majority of road users, 200 km is good enough for daily use.... but what about the days/ weekends when you want to go on journey's over 200 k??

also the figure of 200km is not a true reflection of actual driving range in the real world.. it is based on flat road, continious driving at a specfic speed....

15 hours to charge at home.... that not good...

they aren't very green, when your fuel for electricity is from fossil fuels.

EV cars will not take off till they are as good as or better than petrol/diesel cars....

Round Cable

CJhaughey wrote: »

Why? The electricity in this state is primarily generated from burning fossil fuels anyway so when you plug in your Electric car it is using Coal to recharge it's batteries.
Maybe it makes you feel better that it is electric but it won't make any difference practically to Co2 emissions.

It makes a difference, even with ESB electricity.

For a Chevrolet Volt (64km all electric range) driving during electric mode and using ESB electricity (in 2007) it would release approximately 97g of CO2 per km. While using the Irish average electricity generation numbers (again in 2007), CO2 emissions are 73.5g/km.

For comparison, the Opel Insignia, has CO2 emissions starting from 136g/km for the ecoflex diesel model. So even with a dirty grid, there are CO2 savings to be made using electric cars. And hopefully if we shift to a renewable dominated grid, those figures could fall to 0.

probe

cards wrote: »

Why is there not any decent electric cars available in europe? Is it some kind of a conspiracy theory with the people supplying oil paying the large car manufactures not to bring them out? I know it sounds a little ludicrous as they can hardly bribe 10 or so big companies but citroen had two ev's out before 2000 and not alone has this technology not been expanded on it's not being manufactured anymore! This ev was on bbc on sunday night and looks like a great car but is not in europe yet. http://evme.com.au/

I just wish toyota or someone would get up off their ass and do something and stop messing about with hybrids. I want an ev!

Tesla Motors is opening "Apple Store" type shops to sell the Tesla in various European cities. I doubt if an Irish store is high on their list of priorities :-( And there is www.venturi.fr. Do a google search using "Frankfurt Motor Show electric cars" and you will see that there is a considerable pipeline of products from all the main car manufacturers due between 2010 and 2013. However I would be surprised if there will be many of these in Ireland anytime soon... While there is a lot of technology rolling off multi-national company production lines in Ireland, Irish culture is slow to embrace new technology.

The motorway system has finally arrived in Ireland (almost) - (it has been on the Continent since the 1940s), yet there are no motorway service areas to charge up, dine, have a coffee, use the toilets, etc.

[MOD_EDIT] Let’s keep posts on-topic please – no need for the long-winded spiel on your visit to a service station. [/MOD_EDIT]

If a country can't design clear consistent road signage, operate motorway service areas and service stations serving basic requirements to normal European standards with clean functional toilets, if I was responsible for marketing electric cars or any other state of the art stuff, I can't help but thinking that Ireland would be low on my list after a quick visit to the country.

If Irish people put up with such crap, and are so thoughtless when it comes to design and presentation of the most basic services, I can't see them queuing up to buy electric cars anytime soon..... Until the pumps run dry.

Good design and good planning. A holistic approach to the environment and everything else. Ireland's mental block.

You might read this thinking .probe is a "difficult customer", a picky *astard, whatever - but the same issues hit other people who come from an environment where infrastructure is properly organised.

To move back to your topic - there will be no shortage of electric cars on the European market - but I don't expect that there will be many sold in Ireland - until there is no alternative. Ireland will be dragged screaming and unprepared into the e-vehicle age ultimately.

*www.mitsubishijettowel.com

(several manufacturers make similar products)

zod

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM18BqlGyWI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZW0Ew6OWqw

derry

probe wrote: »

Tesla Motors is opening "Apple Store" type shops to sell the Tesla in various European cities. I doubt if an Irish store is high on their list of priorities :-( And there is www.venturi.fr. Do a google search using "Frankfurt Motor Show electric cars" and you will see that there is a considerable pipeline of products from all the main car manufacturers due between 2010 and 2013. However I would be surprised if there will be many of these in Ireland anytime soon... While there is a lot of technology rolling off multi-national company production lines in Ireland, Irish culture is slow to embrace new technology.

The motorway system has finally arrived in Ireland ....yada yada cofee yada yada bowel movements yada yada pontifications eeeekkkkkkk

finaly sorta about electric cars hope spings eternal

To move back to your topic - there will be no shortage of electric cars on the European market - but I don't expect that there will be many sold in Ireland - until there is no alternative. Ireland will be dragged screaming and unprepared into the e-vehicle age ultimately.

*www.mitsubishijettowel.com



and wrap it up with a piture on after bowel movements eeeeeekkkkkkkk




(several manufacturers make similar products)

I goona go bash my brains out

po0k

Hybrids are a joke, with their wasteful dual drivetrain and ugliness.

Onboard generation: Multi-fuel micro Gas Turbine, tuned for constant rpm per fuel type to generate power for batteries and motors ie. run on vegetable oil, natural gas, methane, whatever you have lying around, á la Mr. Fusion 2000. It's what tanks use, for a reason. Adopt, refine and repurpose this technology.
Power reclaimation: Regenerative braking, EM suspension, tft solar panel body, LED lighting etc.
Drivetrain: electric, 4 wheel+ drive hub motor.
Power storage: modular battery options to suit price/weight/denisty/range market segments.

Develop an industry standard/framework for each chassis type, with extendability for custom jobs.
Market competition derived by producing the best chassis (materials, efficiencies within the chassis frameworkparts to slot into component bay on the base chassis.

Mass produce (here, in Ireland perhaps?).
Sell by the bucket load.

IDA grants for developing/designing this and licensing?

zod

po0k wrote: »

Mass produce (here, in Ireland perhaps?).
Sell by the bucket load.

IDA grants for developing/designing this and licensing?

I think maybe we should focus on generating green electricity, we actually have a competitive advantage in our wind and wave resources.

djpbarry

derry wrote: »

probe wrote:

Originally Posted by probe View Post
Tesla Motors is opening "Apple Store" type shops to sell the Tesla in various European cities. I doubt if an Irish store is high on their list of priorities :-( And there is www.venturi.fr. Do a google search using "Frankfurt Motor Show electric cars" and you will see that there is a considerable pipeline of products from all the main car manufacturers due between 2010 and 2013. However I would be surprised if there will be many of these in Ireland anytime soon... While there is a lot of technology rolling off multi-national company production lines in Ireland, Irish culture is slow to embrace new technology.

The motorway system has finally arrived in Ireland ....yada yada cofee yada yada bowel movements yada yada pontifications eeeekkkkkkk

finaly sorta about electric cars hope spings eternal

To move back to your topic - there will be no shortage of electric cars on the European market - but I don't expect that there will be many sold in Ireland - until there is no alternative. Ireland will be dragged screaming and unprepared into the e-vehicle age ultimately.

*www.mitsubishijettowel.com



and wrap it up with a piture on after bowel movements eeeeeekkkkkkkk




(several manufacturers make similar products)

I goona go bash my brains out

This is the latest in a long line of utterly pointless contributions from derry, which has finally earned him a permanent ban from the forum.

Capt'n Midnight

Two conspiracies on the batteries


one is patents on larger than D cell NiMH batteries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_encumbrance_of_large_automotive_NiMH_batteries

D Cell is the size of torch batteries btw.
one way around this is to use higher voltages, though this means that the standard fireman procedure of cutting the battery cable in the event of a car crash could now be lethal to them.


the other conspiracy is that Bolivia is the main supplier of Lithium and they have been shafted so many times by foreigners exploiting their natural resources that for some reason they aren't agreeing to get shafted once again our behalf.

quentingargan

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Two conspiracies on the batteries


one is patents on larger than D cell NiMH batteries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_encumbrance_of_large_automotive_NiMH_batteries

This Wiki reference is excellent. The film referred to in it "Who Killed the Electric Car" is a kind must-see for EV enthusiasts. When California introduced the "Zero Vehicles Emission Mandate" stipulating that 10% of new cars must be zero-emission by 2003, the auto industry did two things;

1) They rolled out electric car production, making some excellent cars, particularly GM's EV1
2) They lobbied like crazy.

When their lobbying got the mandate effectively overturned, they not only cancelled their EV programmes, but recalled all cars made and crushed them. The only exception in terms of crushing was Toyota who allowed leaseholders to keep their Electric RAV 4s.

It all goes to show that when legislation forces a solution, human ingenuity shines through. Ironically, GM will be able to use the expertise gleaned then to produce the VOLT - an EV with an on-board generator.

It is perhaps a sad reflection on our society that the motivation for this will be fuel prices and not climate change.

Capt'n Midnight

quentingargan wrote: »

The film referred to in it "Who Killed the Electric Car" is a kind must-see for EV enthusiasts.

They had electric cars that could do over 105Kmph back in the nineteenth century. With modern aerodynaics it could go even faster.

The ONLY thing stopping electric cars replacing the internal combustion engine are poor batteries. Lead Acid batteries have the second lowest power to weight ratio of batteries , so any technology based them is doomed to fail. Batteries also take a long time to refill compared to fossil fuel.

Fuel cedlls running on something like methanol could be the answer, if they can be cheap realiable.


Peugeot are supposed to be working on a Diesel hybrid , that would be interesting, especially if they set the diesel to run in it's most efficient energy band and rely on the electric motor to provide indicental acceration. Would mean a larger battery though.


And remind every motorist out there that with electric motors they would not be able to start their cars

Jimbo Slice

Has anyone actually bought an electric car? I've seen a couple of those Reva's around but thats it. I'd like to get an electric car (not a Reva) but there seems to be too much drawbacks, I can't think of any reason to get one other than it's environmentally friendly - if anyone can think of any other reason let me know.

That V2G technology seems pretty cool - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5639ceWg0us

quentingargan

Jimbo Slice wrote: »

I can't think of any reason to get one other than it's environmentally friendly

That may be reason enough for some. It depends on your pattern of use. Many houses have two cars, one of which does less than 50 miles a day, and that car could be an EV. We've had a Berlingo Electrique for a few years - works well for us, but we have a second car for the long trips.

Pity Citroen doesn't support their EV here - we have a battery problem at the moment which we have to fix ourselves, but if I lived in Dublin I would certainly look closely at the Riva or others.

Jimbo Slice

quentingargan wrote: »

That may be reason enough for some. It depends on your pattern of use. Many houses have two cars, one of which does less than 50 miles a day, and that car could be an EV. We've had a Berlingo Electrique for a few years - works well for us, but we have a second car for the long trips.

Pity Citroen doesn't support their EV here - we have a battery problem at the moment which we have to fix ourselves, but if I lived in Dublin I would certainly look closely at the Riva or others.

That Prius 2010 looks great no need for two cars - vote green says you

quentingargan

Jimbo Slice wrote: »

That Prius 2010 looks great no need for two cars - vote green says you

As far as I know, Toyota is only leasing 500 of those world-wide, and selling none in 2010. Afraid 20km on a full charge isn't what I would call a plug-in hybrid.

Cal Cars offer a plug-in conversion for the current model Prius which does better than this. However, it doesn't work with our Prius which is the older 2003 model.

Not sure if the GM Volt won't have better plug-in capability. Q

Capt'n Midnight

Jimbo Slice wrote: »

I can't think of any reason to get one other than it's environmentally friendly - if anyone can think of any other reason let me know.

At present petrol hybrids aren't much better than the best diesels, when you take into account whole life inputs.

The batteries used aren't that environmental - allegations about Nickel mining - and they aren't huge. 60Kg Prius, Vs. 15Kg for a normal Lead Acid battery for a car




BTW
Actually replacing the lead acid battery in a car with NiMH or Li could reduce the weight by 1% giving a similar immprovement in fuel econony. Changing all the bulbs to LED's or CF for interior lights would save about 100W - not huge but over the life of the car should pay for itself.



GPS
There are potential savings too from GPS green routes, those that aren't shortest or fastest but are flatter, and with fewer lights and other potential stop-starts and more likely to have constant driving speeds.


Tax
Thing is , we are on an island, so fuel tax is a very easy to encourage people to reduce CO2 emissions.

Round Cable

quentingargan wrote: »

Cal Cars offer a plug-in conversion for the current model Prius which does better than this. However, it doesn't work with our Prius which is the older 2003 model.

There is a French company offering to convert a Prius into a plug-in Prius for €3000 (10 mile range) or €4000 (20 mile range). The latter is a 4kW/hr Lithium Iron Phosphate battery, one of the safest and most modern lithium formulations.

The problem with conversions is the limitation of the OEM electric motor, which has a top speed of about 30MPH, go over this and the engine comes on, no matter what the battery size.

Surely Toyota could build a plug-in Prius with a 20 mile range, cheaper than an aftermarket conversion company? But the most recent rumblings has been a Prius with a 12-18 mile all electric range, that may be released to the general public in the next decade!

zod

there are about 4 or 5 electric cars coming out in 2010 - 2011.

First of the blocks will be the nissan leaf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jjro24YpM-I

magma69

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39K36Rw7LYc

Who Killed the Electric Car? is a 2006 documentary film that explores the creation, limited commercialization, and subsequent destruction of the battery electric vehicle in the United States, specifically the General Motors EV1 of the 1990s. The film explores the roles of automobile manufacturers, the oil industry, the US government, the Californian government, batteries, hydrogen vehicles, and consumers in limiting the development and adoption of this technology.

(description from wiki)

cnocbui

After batteries just not cutting it and not likely to in the foreseeable future, the second huge problem with electric cars is that not many homes have three phase power supplied to them, they have single phase.

With single phase power, you are looking at recharge times measured in days.

I believe there are substantiala ESB charges to supply three phase power to a house, which is what you would need to get charging times down to hours/overnight.

quentingargan

cnocbui wrote: »

With single phase power, you are looking at recharge times measured in days.

Not so. Our Berlingo charges in 8 hours, all off-peak. And its a hungry beast, because with its lead-acid batteries, it weighs 1.5 tonnes. Batteries are 28KwHrs.

But even 50 or 60KwHrs could be recharged overnight on single phase, but not off a 13A socket.

zod

cnocbui wrote: »

After batteries just not cutting it and not likely to in the foreseeable future, the second huge problem with electric cars is that not many homes have three phase power supplied to them, they have single phase.

With single phase power, you are looking at recharge times measured in days.

I believe there are substantiala ESB charges to supply three phase power to a house, which is what you would need to get charging times down to hours/overnight.

the nissan leaf ( due out next year ) will charge from a 220V standard supply in 8 hours. At a quick charge station about 25 minutes ( about the same time it takes to have a cup of tea and a sandwich at a motorway filling station ( where they are likely to be)

source http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/#/charging

as will the renault fluence .. due out next year.

source : http://www.topspeed.com/cars/renault/2010-renault-fluence-ze-concept-ar79185.html

As the batteries get better ( about 10% every year - conservative estimate ) the range will increase beyond 160KM

robtri

zod wrote: »

the nissan leaf ( due out next year ) will charge from a 220V standard supply in 8 hours. At a quick charge station about 25 minutes ( about the same time it takes to have a cup of tea and a sandwich at a motorway filling station ( where they are likely to be)

source http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/#/charging

as per the website, the quick charge is to only 80% capacity....

the range is UP TO 100miles.... like a petrol it depends on how you drive them... so unless you plan on driving like Miss Daisy, which lets be honest no one will... cause they don't do it in petrol cars... you can probaly say the range is only 80miles... now your quick charge only gives you 64 miles.....

a return trip from Dublin to Cork, you would spend half as much time in garages as you would driving..

travel time (@ an averaging of 60mph, trip is 320 miles) 320 mins, re-charging time 150 mins....

so a normal car would be a total travel time of 320 mins, 5.3 hours

a nissan leaf would be 7.8hours.......

all this for a car that is not that much more enviromentally friendly than an internal combustion engine... sorry thats a joke and a waste of time..

quentingargan

All these discussions seem to pre-suppose a few things;

1) That we can go on driving petrol cars forever, and oil will never again go into short supply
2) The the first version of electric cars should be able to replace the entire fleet.

The plan in Ireland is to have about 6,000 cars electric initially. They don't do everything that your petrol car can do, but there are at least 60,000 cars out there that never ever do more than 50 miles a day.

We have our heads in the sand (or worse!) if we think that we can go on using oil for the next forty years the way we used it for the last forty. The age of Peak Oil has well and truly arrived, and they simply can't pump it out of the ground at any faster rate than we are doing at present, and indeed the flow is probably going to decline by 3% per annum in the coming years. This is complicated by countries like India and China wanting their share of the stuff.

The solutions are not mutually exclusive - some folks will be trading their cars for some of the super economical diesels that are coming on the market, others will be happy to have a plug-in hybrid that does 20 miles on the ESB and use the petrol engine the odd time they have to drive to Cork. Others will buy EVs and take the train or bus for longer journeys.

But I find it hard to believe that we will all be using individual transport for long journeys in 20 years time. I would hope that our public transport network will grow to the point that taking the car to Cork would be unthinkable. At €72 per person for the train ticket, we're a bit off that at the moment. :mad:

djpbarry

robtri wrote: »

a return trip from Dublin to Cork, you would spend half as much time in garages as you would driving..

That’s a pretty ridiculous dismissal – how many cars in this country make regular round trips of 500km? I’m going out on a limb here, but I’m guessing the typical commute in this country is substantially less than that.

Macha

djpbarry wrote: »

That’s a pretty ridiculous dismissal – how many cars in this country make regular round trips of 500km? I’m going out on a limb here, but I’m guessing the typical commute in this country is substantially less than that.

This statement by Dempsey is in relation to cycling but is relevant for the discussion on electric vehicles and range:

Over 50% of commutes in Galway city are less then 4 kilometres - that city could become a mecca for cycling and walking. In Dublin city, 40% of commutes in the area between the canals are less than 4 kilometres. Nationally, over 200,000 use their cars to commute less than 4 kilometres every day.

http://www.noeldempsey.ie/index.php/national/cycle-to-work-day-and-urban-commuting-national-bike-week-14-21-june-2009

robtri

djpbarry wrote: »

That’s a pretty ridiculous dismissal – how many cars in this country make regular round trips of 500km? I’m going out on a limb here, but I’m guessing the typical commute in this country is substantially less than that.

Well riddiculous dismissal meets idiotic....
I would guess you are right about the typical work or shopping commute... but strangely enough and maybe I am on my own here, but on my days off, every now and then I like to go and visit friends and family and other places, just to be arkward for these UN-green cars manufacturers... that take me on trips over 250K in a day....

how does this car fit in here... answer it doesnt.... and I like most motorists, use our cars for longer journeys than shopping or work, a few times a year...
the car doesn't work as a normal car... its a commuter car... that uses dirty electricity, and you would need a second petrol or diesel car for when you not commuting to work or shops, and that not very green either is it....

So please tell me... why my dismissal of this car is not right.

Macha

robtri wrote: »

how does this car fit in here... answer it doesnt.... and I like most motorists, use our cars for longer journeys than shopping or work, a few times a year...
the car doesn't work as a normal car... its a commuter car... that uses dirty electricity, and you would need a second petrol or diesel car for when you not commuting to work or shops, and that not very green either is it....

So please tell me... why my dismissal of this car is not right.

Where are you getting your stats on "most motorists"?

Personally, if I ever had to buy a car, I would like to buy a small urban electric car and rent a diesel/petrol car for any long journeys that I decide to make. The cheaper cost of purchasing/running a smaller, more efficient, more environmentally friendly car would more than cover the rental cost on those odd occasions.

To buy a car whose full capacity you would only use a few times a year is very inefficient.

Shiny

robtri wrote: »

Well riddiculous dismissal meets idiotic....
I would guess you are right about the typical work or shopping commute... but strangely enough and maybe I am on my own here, but on my days off, every now and then I like to go and visit friends and family and other places, just to be arkward for these UN-green cars manufacturers... that take me on trips over 250K in a day....

how does this car fit in here... answer it doesnt.... and I like most motorists, use our cars for longer journeys than shopping or work, a few times a year...

In fairness, you are right that most people would make at least a couple
of journey's a year that would be longer than the range of the car. Perhaps
in these cases you could rent an additional battery pack which would
increase the car's range for these situations?

It doesn't make sense to fill every car with a load of capacity that isn't
going to be used which increases cost and weight significantly.