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Everybody against Cuts!

  • 30-09-2009 7:29am
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 946 ✭✭✭


    I poise a question. Who is willing to take a cut which will effect them personally? Everybody is now coming out with " no cuts which effect me....etc".

    What people don't understand that we will are all going to be less well off or poorer no matter what.


«1

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 823 ✭✭✭MG


    alentejo wrote: »
    I poise a question. Who is willing to take a cut which will effect them personally? Everybody is now coming out with " no cuts which effect me....etc".

    What people don't understand that we will are all going to be less well off or poorer no matter what.

    I agree with the sentiment but in fact the majority of us would be better off fairly soon if we accepted the right but painful decisions now.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    The taxpayer don't pay my wages so whatever you are getting at doesn't affect me. Unless you are specifying frontline services, it will affect me if I ever have to use them(strike action)

    My wages are determined by market conditions which has been terrible lately, paycuts everywhere in the MNC i work in!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 38 gamblor1975


    The Govt. took on too many people and gave them too much money in nthe good times and now cannot afford to pay them. Cuts will have to be made either in the number of people working in the PS or preferably by taking a small pay cut across the PS so as to maintain frontline services.
    I see SIPTU were on this morning looking for a 3.5% pay increase for the HSE workers. It just goes to show how out of touch with reality these guys are.

    If everyone took a little pain we would get out of this mess sooner but listening to some of the unions they would prefer to go with the nuclear option of all out strike.

    I think everyone should prepare for a series of unneccessary strikes which will affect everyone but that the Govt. cannot afford to give in to.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    alentejo wrote: »
    I poise a question. Who is willing to take a cut which will effect them personally? Everybody is now coming out with " no cuts which effect me....etc".

    What people don't understand that we will are all going to be less well off or poorer no matter what.


    The thing is a large number of people who work in the private sector have taken cuts. We didn't have a choice. Others have taken the ultimate cut and lost their jobs.

    Cuts have to happen, the country is spending too much and something has to give. The Unions from my perspective are living in cloud cuckoo land and have lost all grasp of the reality of the situation.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,271 ✭✭✭irish_bob


    The Govt. took on too many people and gave them too much money in nthe good times and now cannot afford to pay them. Cuts will have to be made either in the number of people working in the PS or preferably by taking a small pay cut across the PS so as to maintain frontline services.
    I see SIPTU were on this morning looking for a 3.5% pay increase for the HSE workers. It just goes to show how out of touch with reality these guys are.

    If everyone took a little pain we would get out of this mess sooner but listening to some of the unions they would prefer to go with the nuclear option of all out strike.

    I think everyone should prepare for a series of unneccessary strikes which will affect everyone but that the Govt. cannot afford to give in to.



    the unions led by the likes of jack o connor are engaged in a broader idealogical war , for them, its about much much more than cuts to teachers , nurses or garda pay , they see capitalism is wounded and they have had to suffer through decades of prosperity since the berlin wall came down in 1989 , o, connor believes his time has come


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,291 ✭✭✭techdiver


    irish_bob wrote: »
    the unions led by the likes of jack o connor are engaged in a broader idealogical war , for them, its about much much more than cuts to teachers , nurses or garda pay , they see capitalism is wounded and they have had to suffer through decades of prosperity since the berlin wall came down in 1989 , o, connor believes his time has come

    Great to see that a guy like O'Connor who earns €120K + preaching about this crap. Complete hypocrite if you ask me. He is a member of this so called high paid elite that he so vehemently vilifies!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    I'll give a straight answer to the original question, and not use it as an opportunity to bash other groups within society: I am prepared to tolerate some reduction in my income (whether by cuts or increased taxes) for the general good.

    I might as well take that position, because it's going to happen whether I like it or not. Resenting it, or getting angry about it, or wanting to blame others for it, would only make me feel worse.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,325 ✭✭✭✭Dozen Wicked Words


    I wouldn't bang on the Governments door asking for a pay cut but would accept a fair one without any desire for industrial action. (Can I just ask them they keep it a bit lower than IrishBobenomics desire for 25% :o).

    I am just slightly concerned that I am not only going to be hit by a pay cut, but by big reduction in my 3 kids childrens allowance, a big hike in tax, a raise in car tax and carbon tax. Individually they are all tolerable and I would be able to absorb them, but as single income family with moderate mortgage (not an insane one thankfully) I am a little bit worried, like the rest of the country, the figures aren't going to balance.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,981 ✭✭✭Diarmuid


    I'll give a straight answer to the original question, and not use it as an opportunity to bash other groups within society: I am prepared to tolerate some reduction in my income (whether by cuts or increased taxes) for the general good.
    Would you be willing to take a reduction in your income of €x to see that €x being flushed down the toilet the following day?

    Why do you believe your cuts will be used "for the general good"? I don't see any indication that the huge increases in government spending in the past 10 years have produced equivalent improvements "for the general good".

    I'm not so gung ho about unconditional reductions in my income.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Diarmuid wrote: »
    Would you be willing to take a reduction in your income of €x to see that €x being flushed down the toilet the following day?

    That's a typical argument against paying any tax. Of course it is possible to identify some waste, some inefficiencies, and some corruption. But the greatest part of exchequer spending is used fairly well.
    Why do you believe your cuts will be used "for the general good"? I don't see any indication that the huge increases in government spending in the past 10 years have produced equivalent improvements "for the general good".

    That depends on what you measure, and what you consider to be good.
    I'm not so gung ho about unconditional reductions in my income.

    There is a difference between being gung-ho and being resigned to the inevitable.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,981 ✭✭✭Diarmuid


    But the greatest part of exchequer spending is used fairly well.
    Really? Any proof of that?

    Here are the increases in the PS expenditure in the past 10 year.

    Have we seen a 10% year on year improvement in the education of our children? Have we seen a 10% yoy improvement in our health system?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭MaceFace


    alentejo wrote: »
    I poise a question. Who is willing to take a cut which will effect them personally? Everybody is now coming out with " no cuts which effect me....etc".

    What people don't understand that we will are all going to be less well off or poorer no matter what.

    IMO anyone who earns >50k is well paid.
    This includes me and I would advocate and accept the following:
    - child welfare abolished for well paid.
    - early childcare supplement/free early school year - abolished
    - 10 cents extra on petrol IF is is ringfenced to improve public transport
    - property tax of ~500 a year if stamp duty abolished

    Thats about €3200 a year out of my pocket (wow - thats a lot when I look at it that way).

    I will be willing to do this if:
    - senior public sector (including politicians) earning >150k have a 25% pay decrease, >100k=15%, >50k=10%, >35k=5%, >20k 3%
    - social welfare cut of 5%
    - minimum wage cut to western Europe average

    There is probably a lot more other things I would like to see, but I think that if we can reduce the wages across the board, prices would fall likewise and we would all be better off. Its all about competitiveness!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Diarmuid wrote: »
    Really? Any proof of that?

    Have a dig here: http://www.audgen.gov.ie/ViewDoc.asp?fn=/home.asp
    Here are the increases in the PS expenditure in the past 10 year.

    Have we seen a 10% year on year improvement in the education of our children? Have we seen a 10% yoy improvement in our health system?

    I have no idea. Neither, I suspect, do you.

    Anyway, I am not interested in continuing this conversation. As I said in my first post in this thread
    I'll give a straight answer to the original question, and not use it as an opportunity to bash other groups within society...
    You have chosen to do some government-bashing. I'm just not interested in that in the context of this thread.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,981 ✭✭✭Diarmuid


    You have chosen to do some government-bashing.
    If you want to see it like that, you're welcome. However when I spend my hard earned money I like to know that I'm getting value for it. Most people I know feel the same.

    Anyway, I am not interested in continuing this conversation
    Toys out of the pram time.


    EDIT: And for the record there is plenty evidence that not only are we not getting a return for the huge investment in education but we are actually going backwards
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0919/1224254861540.html
    "On education, he suggested there had been a slippage in standards at the higher levels."
    The head of Google in Dublin said he could not fill positions due to lack of talent.
    And there's plenty more from where that came from


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Diarmuid wrote: »
    ... Toys out of the pram time.

    That's bollocks. You snipped both the reason I gave and the fact that it was specifically in this thread that I chose not to have the discussion.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,291 ✭✭✭techdiver


    Diarmuid wrote: »
    If you want to see it like that, you're welcome. However when I spend my hard earned money I like to know that I'm getting value for it. Most people I know feel the same.



    Toys out of the pram time.

    If I may step in between this little spat for one moment.

    I think the points about value for money and wise spending are valid, but I also believe that at this point in time the people of the country are getting bogged down and using this an excuse to not face reality. What is done cannot be undone unfortunately. We need to bridge the gap between revenue and expenditure and people arguing that they do not want to take the hit based on past or current wastage is not gong to solve any problems.

    Like it or not, we are in serious trouble as a nation. We are tinkering close to the edge from a financial standpoint, and if the Unions in this country oppose any changes they will be responsible for pushing us over the edge and into national bankruptcy. In this event the IMF will come in and people will not know what hit them as the IMF will not answer to unions and will operate a cold hard calculated fiscal adjustment on the public finances whether the people of the nation like it or not.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,729 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Nobody even wants to go outside to hold up a picket sign. What indication do you have that they are willing to endure cutbacks?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 806 ✭✭✭bonzos


    How can anyone public or privare sector have any respect of the Gov after the way the john o donoghue spendig spree was handled.he wasted a fortune on living the high life and only after weeks of pressure he gave in and said one word "sorry" . that was the end of it all is forgiven,these crooks deserve no respect and the fools who kiss their ass and treat them like king also have a lot to answer for.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,291 ✭✭✭techdiver


    bonzos wrote: »
    How can anyone public or privare sector have any respect of the Gov after the way the john o donoghue spendig spree was handled.he wasted a fortune on living the high life and only after weeks of pressure he gave in and said one word "sorry" . that was the end of it all is forgiven,these crooks deserve no respect and the fools who kiss their ass and treat them like king also have a lot to answer for.

    Once again I completely agree with you on these points, the f***er should be out on his ass now, but once again if you refer to my previous post above you will see that what I am saying is that regardless of the despicable behaviour of our elected representatives, we are still in a serious bind as a nation. Using these incidents as an excuse not to face the issues at hand is only cutting our nose off to spite our face.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    bonzos wrote: »
    How can anyone public or privare sector have any respect of the Gov after the way the john o donoghue spendig spree was handled.he wasted a fortune on living the high life and only after weeks of pressure he gave in and said one word "sorry" . that was the end of it all is forgiven,these crooks deserve no respect and the fools who kiss their ass and treat them like king also have a lot to answer for.
    Isn't it mad though. They feel secure enough in their power that even an apology is beneath them. Haughey taught them well.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭MaceFace


    techdiver wrote: »
    Once again I completely agree with you on these points, the f***er should be out on his ass now, but once again if you refer to my previous post above you will see that what I am saying is that regardless of the despicable behaviour of our elected representatives, we are still in a serious bind as a nation. Using these incidents as an excuse not to face the issues at hand is only cutting our nose off to spite our face.

    So I gather from the lack of details to the question posed in this thread that none of the posters are willing to accept any cutbacks?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    Diarmuid wrote: »
    However when I spend my hard earned money I like to know that I'm getting value for it. Most people I know feel the same.



    Toys out of the pram time.


    EDIT: And for the record there is plenty evidence that not only are we not getting a return for the huge investment in education but we are actually going backwards
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0919/1224254861540.html
    "On education, he suggested there had been a slippage in standards at the higher levels."
    The head of Google in Dublin said he could not fill positions due to lack of talent.
    And there's plenty more from where that came from


    I agree with you there. One area where cuts could and will come is in the area of public service pensions ; why do retiring p.s. on completion of service get one and a half years salary tax free, as well as 50% pension ?

    These are the sort of pensions people retiring now (a) public service people retiring now have never contributed anything like the full cost of (b) private sector people can only dream of. There was a report a while ago of the Garda taking early retirement having an average pension pot of over 1 million euro. Eddie Hobbs said on Frontline the other evening that Gardai would need to be paying 48% of their salary towards their pension if they were paying the full economic cost.
    There are massive savings to be made there.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    MaceFace wrote: »
    So I gather from the lack of details to the question posed in this thread that none of the posters are willing to accept any cutbacks?

    In fairness, P. Breathnach, a retired public servant, wrote he would " tolerate some reduction in my income (whether by cuts or increased taxes) for the general good.";)

    If I was on a p.s. pension so would I.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,271 ✭✭✭irish_bob


    MaceFace wrote: »
    IMO anyone who earns >50k is well paid.
    This includes me and I would advocate and accept the following:
    - child welfare abolished for well paid.
    - early childcare supplement/free early school year - abolished
    - 10 cents extra on petrol IF is is ringfenced to improve public transport
    - property tax of ~500 a year if stamp duty abolished

    Thats about €3200 a year out of my pocket (wow - thats a lot when I look at it that way).

    I will be willing to do this if:
    - senior public sector (including politicians) earning >150k have a 25% pay decrease, >100k=15%, >50k=10%, >35k=5%, >20k 3%
    - social welfare cut of 5%
    - minimum wage cut to western Europe average

    There is probably a lot more other things I would like to see, but I think that if we can reduce the wages across the board, prices would fall likewise and we would all be better off. Its all about competitiveness!


    not a single thing in this post that i disagree with


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    jimmmy wrote: »
    In fairness, P. Breathnach, a retired public servant, wrote he would " tolerate some reduction in my income (whether by cuts or increased taxes) for the general good.";)

    If I was on a p.s. pension so would I.

    Somehow, jimmmy, you managed to invest that with an unpleasant tone. What I said is entirely unrelated to the source of my income.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    Somehow, jimmmy, you managed to invest that with an unpleasant tone. What I said is entirely unrelated to the source of my income.
    No unpleasant tone was given or intended. I was merely clarifying Macefaces post where he / she wrote just before that about " none of the posters are willing to accept any cutbacks? "


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭MaceFace


    jimmmy wrote: »
    No unpleasant tone was given or intended. I was merely clarifying Macefaces post where he / she wrote just before that about " none of the posters are willing to accept any cutbacks? "

    Has anyone else said what they would be willing to accept?
    Be honest and open - its not like someone will track you down and say you posted this and therefore we are taking it off you.

    I am trying to get a sensible discussion going not the usual slagging off of each other which these discussions always descend into.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    MaceFace wrote: »
    Has anyone else said what they would be willing to accept?

    I am willing to accept huge cutbacks in government spending....virtually every dept. I would prefer this than further excessive govt borrowing for my children + grandchildren to repay with interest. If the govt departments had the same budgets to spend as 5 or 6 years ago many billions could be saved....let them decide how to spend it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    MaceFace wrote: »
    Has anyone else said what they would be willing to accept?
    Be honest and open - its not like someone will track you down and say you posted this and therefore we are taking it off you.

    I am trying to get a sensible discussion going not the usual slagging off of each other which these discussions always descend into.

    I've already answered here:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62327983&postcount=33


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    jimmmy wrote: »
    One area where cuts could and will come is in the area of public service pensions ; why do retiring p.s. on completion of service get one and a half years salary tax free, as well as 50% pension ?
    Because when they took the jobs this was part of the terms and conditions. At the time, those T&Cs were quite normal when compared to similar work.

    In the same way as up to a year ago, people signed up to huge mortgages and still must pay them off.

    So, you make a deal with someone you keep to it, right?


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 9,035 Mod ✭✭✭✭mewso


    I am a public servant and I will accept a pay cut with one proviso.

    When the good times roll back in and you get your xmas bonus while public servants are still on a pay freeze and paid below the international average etc. you will all start threads asking why the Government won't pay public servants more.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 9,035 Mod ✭✭✭✭mewso


    mikemac wrote: »
    Very few staff get Christmas bonuses. I swear a lot of public servants (not you) reckon the private sector is made up of hot shot traders and dot com millionaires

    It seems you are right and nobody in the private sector was making good money during the boom. Amazing really.
    mikemac wrote: »
    I did a bonus for a few years as in banking it's the done thing. But feck it, you work 14 hours days every month end to get it.
    Do you work these hours in your job? I hope not :)
    Outside of banking I'm not sure who else gets a bonus

    I'm not targeting people who got bonuses. I'm talking in general about those non-existent people in the private sector who made good money but it seems they didn't. Who knew?
    mikemac wrote: »
    Anyway, benchmarking was supposed to address your point. You get raises and we will see if any cuts happen. When the good times roll you can lobby for more raises

    I'm a Web Developer who has developed very large scale applications both for in-house use and our external websites. We don't have project teams because we are small scale so we do these applications on our own. Benchmarking meant a few extra bob but it was never going to compare me to a project dev in the private sector just whatever office grade I was analogous to.

    That was fine. I made my choice and stayed in the public sector when it was quite possible I could earn much more doing contract work in the private sector. Someone is bound to claim the money wasn't that good but it was. As I said I made a choice. Enough of a salary to live reasonably well (second-hand car, affordable housing etc.) and be home by 6 most evenings to have some time to myself. Fair swap to me.

    Now we have tough times and I am completely serious when I say I will take another pay cut if necessary but what irritates me is the general tone of bile towards the PS. I lost my pension so should you and so on.

    I give far more credence to those who may have criticised the PS during the boom as it was obvious to many then that it was ridiculous how bloated it was just as it was obvious that grabbing every patch of grass to build something on was a bad idea.

    I don't like the way the unions are talking because I can see it's a simple case of maths. The cost of the PS has to go down. No two ways about it and I hope some sense will prevail and people will talk it out.

    Yes I will take a pay cut again despite the fact that I feel I am well worth the salary I am currently on while many others aren't so it will be a bitter bill either way and it's just salt on the wound when you see the bile being thrown around on the continual threads about the PS.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    I voted FF, I dont even deserve to get paid at all...:o


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 9,035 Mod ✭✭✭✭mewso


    Hmm seems odd now but mike mac did have a post in between my two above. Trying to make me look bad eh :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    Mewso I bet the most useless f**kers in your PS office would be the ones to wail about the cut loudest if it came.

    Your last piont is what would crush me if I saw employee x who was useless. Keep his job and be retained while everyone who carried him gets their wages cut as well. Instead of just cutting the chaff.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,986 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    I retracted my post, posted on the spur of the moment.

    You made several fair points, can't realy disagree with any of it :)


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 9,035 Mod ✭✭✭✭mewso


    Zambia232 wrote: »
    Your last piont is what would crush me if I saw employee x who was useless. Keep his job and be retained while everyone who carried him gets their wages cut as well. Instead of just cutting the chaff.

    Overtime is the real laugh. Bin men on ridiculous sums (100k for some). I kid you not. Even though overtime is now gone they are getting a deal on it (OT being bought out).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    mewso wrote: »
    Overtime is the real laugh. Bin men on ridiculous sums (100k for some). I kid you not. Even though overtime is now gone they are getting a deal on it (OT being bought out).

    Think you have it right there a country where A public bin man can be paid that figure is doomed to fall. :(


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,729 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Bin men on ridiculous sums (100k for some)

    I want to see a breakdown of this figure.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,123 ✭✭✭stepbar


    The reality is that, in every passing week, the Government has to borrow 400million to keep the show on the road. Coupled with that, people in the private sector are taking paycuts of anywhere between 10 - 50%, which results in less tax to the state. In addition those very same people are being hit with levies and various other increases in tax in accordance to their personal suitations. Now, this has the result in reducing spending power amoungst those very people and this in turn reduces the amount of tax the Government collects.

    Now on the other side, the Private sector is paid out of the taxes that the Private sector generates. The only real cut I can see that public servants have taken is a Pension Levy, which I may add is being paid towards a STATE GUARENTEED PENSION!!!!! I'd love to pay 10% of my salary to the Government for a STATE GUARENTEED PENSION!!!! Are you telling me that this is sustainable considering that the age profile of the nation is increasing year on year?

    Some public sector unions (and their members) need to cop the FCUK on. The public sector pays for EVERYTHING. Absolutely EVERYTHING.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,262 ✭✭✭✭Joey the lips


    alentejo wrote: »
    I poise a question. Who is willing to take a cut which will effect them personally? Everybody is now coming out with " no cuts which effect me....etc".

    What people don't understand that we will are all going to be less well off or poorer no matter what.


    Does not mean we have to roll over and accept it like lambs.

    No more cuts.The goverment has taken so much off me already and the economic downturn has taken my job. If they leave me alone I will just scrape by. If they take any more... They will have to rehouse me.... Its there choice.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 458 ✭✭I_am_Jebus


    I am a PS Worker.

    If Gov decide to continue their current policies, I am happy to take a 5% pay cut from January 2010.

    If Government stop stoking this public versus private debate and stop focusing media attention on public sector pay solely and focus equally on other elements financial controls

    and

    The Government come out with serious plans to reduce public sector numbers as whole, but increase numbers in other areas (front line staff in justice, health etc..), proper staff deployment policies, proper initiatives/policies for long-term reductions in resource wastage

    and

    they address policitical financial corruption seriously

    I would be willing to take a 10% pay cut from Jan 2010. That is, in parallell with any other tax etc... changes.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    mewso wrote: »
    It seems you are right and nobody in the private sector was making good money during the boom. Amazing really.

    Specify who tho?
    You've seen the figures which prove the public sector earn 25% more relative to positions in the private sector?

    You know who was cleaning up in the private sector, it was the auctioneers, bankers etc.
    The vast majority of people in the IT sector were certainlly not cleaning up since DCB in 2001, public or private.

    I worked for a major German and a major American company who make profits in the hundreds of millions until 2008. I never broke 25k and I never got an xmas bonus either!
    I'm not targeting people who got bonuses. I'm talking in general about those non-existent people in the private sector who made good money but it seems they didn't. Who knew?
    I refer you to a more specific post of mine:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61269897&postcount=93

    That was fine. I made my choice and stayed in the public sector when it was quite possible I could earn much more doing contract work in the private sector. Someone is bound to claim the money wasn't that good but it was. As I said I made a choice. Enough of a salary to live reasonably well (second-hand car, affordable housing etc.) and be home by 6 most evenings to have some time to myself. Fair swap to me.

    I wouldn't claim the money for contractors wasn't good.
    It certainly was!
    But how many of those jobs were there?
    Outside of Dublin, there was nothing. I know because I was looking and because my friends were emigrating.
    Inside of Dublin, you're talking about a few hundred jobs at the max and I turned down jobs in Dublin because I utterly refuse to live there.

    The point is, there are many people in the private sector who would also have loved to have gone into contracting aswell. You are paid well in contracting for a variety of reasons, of which I'm sure you're aware, thats the trade off for security, pensions etc.

    You should be happy you're in the public sector, most of the contractors I know have left Ireland! Speaking for the private sector workers I know, most of them are quite pleased now that they are permanent.

    Also, speaking of the market in London, rates for contractors have halved.
    I know a project manager who is currently unemployed.
    He was complaining about having to work for £200 a day when he was making £400 per day in London.

    Now we have tough times and I am completely serious when I say I will take another pay cut if necessary but what irritates me is the general tone of bile towards the PS. I lost my pension so should you and so on.

    I give far more credence to those who may have criticised the PS during the boom as it was obvious to many then that it was ridiculous how bloated it was just as it was obvious that grabbing every patch of grass to build something on was a bad idea.

    No argument there.
    I don't like the way the unions are talking because I can see it's a simple case of maths. The cost of the PS has to go down. No two ways about it and I hope some sense will prevail and people will talk it out.

    Again I agree.
    Yes I will take a pay cut again despite the fact that I feel I am well worth the salary I am currently on while many others aren't so it will be a bitter bill either way and it's just salt on the wound when you see the bile being thrown around on the continual threads about the PS.

    And yet again I agree.
    In fact I think those in the IT sector are vastly underpaid compared to other less knowledge intensive and less stressful jobs!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 823 ✭✭✭MG


    Zambia232 wrote: »
    I voted FF, I dont even deserve to get paid at all...:o

    I actually think you owe me money for voting FF


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    MG wrote: »
    I actually think you owe me money for voting FF

    In my defence I was going to get shot the only choice I had was the bullet.

    Nobody on the ballot was any good


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    stepbar wrote: »
    I'd love to pay 10% of my salary to the Government for a STATE GUARENTEED PENSION!!!!
    Unless you're self-employed or just not working and not paying PRSI, you're already paying for a state guaranteed pension, the very same one most public sector and private workers get.

    As for the guarantee, do bear in mind that the state was putting this money into the National Pension Reserve Fund but recently took a large chunk out of the fund to bail out the banks.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    stepbar wrote: »
    I'd love to pay 10% of my salary to the Government for a STATE GUARENTEED PENSION!!!!
    Funnily enough our pensions policy suggests something along those lines.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    Unless you're self-employed or just not working and not paying PRSI, you're already paying for a state guaranteed pension, the very same one most public sector and private workers get.

    As for the guarantee, do bear in mind that the state was putting this money into the National Pension Reserve Fund but recently took a large chunk out of the fund to bail out the banks.

    Still going on about the banks.
    I am a realist, and I consider a live banking system to be of paramount importance to a healthy economy. We need new regulations... but since the unionised, non-productive Public Sector runs that... look what it got us!

    The banks are to blame
    The regulators are to blame
    The government are to blame
    We, who bought at the peak, are to blame

    Now can we move on from the petulant blame-game and save this country please!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 141 ✭✭Inconspicuous


    MaceFace wrote: »
    IMO anyone who earns >50k is well paid.
    This includes me and I would advocate and accept the following:
    - child welfare abolished for well paid.
    - early childcare supplement/free early school year - abolished
    - 10 cents extra on petrol IF is is ringfenced to improve public transport
    - property tax of ~500 a year if stamp duty abolished

    Thats about €3200 a year out of my pocket (wow - thats a lot when I look at it that way).

    I will be willing to do this if:
    - senior public sector (including politicians) earning >150k have a 25% pay decrease, >100k=15%, >50k=10%, >35k=5%, >20k 3%
    - social welfare cut of 5%
    - minimum wage cut to western Europe average

    There is probably a lot more other things I would like to see, but I think that if we can reduce the wages across the board, prices would fall likewise and we would all be better off. Its all about competitiveness!

    I have read countless threads like these over the past while on Boards and usually I wouldn't bother replying but this post really caught me.

    I presume that the poster is a private sector worker. I am a worker in the Public sector and one of the few who would fall into the the same category as the poster above as earning >50K per year. And yes I would consider myself to be fairly well paid

    I have to agree with all the cuts below:
    - child welfare abolished for well paid.
    - early childcare supplement/free early school year - abolished
    - 10 cents extra on petrol IF is is ringfenced to improve public transport
    - property tax of ~500 a year if stamp duty abolished
    [\quote]

    In fact I'd probably go one further and abolish child welfare payments altogether.

    I agree that loosing €3200 extra a year is fairly substantial! This got me thinking as to what all of the recent levies and taxes have done to my take home pay. So, today being pay day I took my payslip and compared it to the payslip I received dated the 2/10/08 to see what the difference would be.

    I was actually surprised to see that my net take home pay has been reduced by exactly 17% since this time last year! This is even more surprising when you take into consideration that I have actually received a pay increment in that time!

    I do agree that there needs to be cuts, but I don't agree with the poster above who states that all those public servants earning >50K should automatically take a further 10% of a pay cut. Everyone is saying that EVERYBODY needs to take cuts. Well the message coming through loud and clear above is that the poster is willing for everyone to take cuts but only as long as those in the public sector take a substanial amount more.

    Why should I take a 10% further hit on my salary while you don't?

    What people in the private sector (and I have worked there) don't realise, is that it is not possible for an individual employee in the public sector to negotiate individual terms and conditions the way it is possible in the private sector.

    For example, in the company I worked in prior to working in the public sector I am still in contact with a number of employees. A number of them have told me that they have had to take a 10% pay cut this year despite the fact the company is still making huge profits. However there are one or 2 people in the company who have managed to negotiate 5-10% pay increases! The reason for this is that A) they have the ability to do so because they are not tied into a generic grading system like those of us in the public sector and B) they are seen as valuable staff worth holding onto.

    By imposing an arbitrary 10% paycut across the board all staff are treated the same regardless of thier abilites and skills and regardless if they actually work in a department which actually generates a net revenue for the Government.

    The same thing is rehashed in all these arguements though about the simple fact of the numbers not adding up! Well yes that's true! So let's take a look at these numbers.

    It we treat Ireland as a company like so many like to do, let's have a look at the total expenditure of the company. It is generally accepted that just over a third of total expenditure goes on public sector pay and that the numbers employed in the public service are not hugely out of sync with other developped countries (although probably slightly more than average). A little amount more than a thrid is spent on social welfare payments and then the remainder (a little under a third) is spent on capital projects.

    Having talked to a number of accountants and professionals in the business world, they have generally accepted amongst them that a company can spend as low as 10% of total expenditure on employees' wages (in the online retail business) to up as much as 50-60% in the hotel trade. So, the government spending 33-38% of total expenditure on employees wages falls within business norms.

    In return for this it probably receives approximately 20-30% of the expenditure back in the form of taxes therefore actually reducing the total expenditure. It also receives the services of its employees who carry out the functions of the government's business which strive to ensure the smooth running of services, which in turn attract investment and developpment of the economy and give a return to the government in the form of taxes and revenue as well as creating employment in the private sector.

    The money it spends on capital projects helps to improve the infrastructre of the country and encourage investment and developpment of the country's economy therefore generating a further return for the government.

    So far, so good. The government is spending money in areas which see a return for its investment.

    The money it spends on social welfare is the largest portion of its expenditure. It does not receive any taxes back which cut the bill and it receives no return in terms of services provided by the recipients. In business terms it is throwing money into an area for which it makes absolutly no returns at all.

    So, looking at this in a cold hearted purely business point of view in terms of numbers that so many people on boards like to do, I think it's fairly obvious where any right thinking company exec in the private sector would start making cuts!

    Now, I don't believe that a government should operate in a cold hearted business manner. But, if so many people here and in the media (Eddie Hobbs springs to mind) wish to keep comparing the government and public sector to a business and how one would operate in the "real" world then they should step up and say it as it is. Social Welfare needs to be hugely slashed as it is the one place where the business is hemorraging money with absolutly no return. No other business in the private sector would accept those losses or that business model!

    Sorry for deviating from the original post. Would I be willing to accept further cuts on the 17% I've already taken? Yes, I would. How much would I be willing to accept? Well really that depends on what they cut. I've already taken a paycut and don't wish to take a further one. I would accept the cutting of allowances such as child benfit, rent allowance, mortage intrest relief, medical relief etc. I would accept a reasonable property tax of up to €1000 a year. These are the sort of cuts which truely affect everyone and as such keeps us all in the same boat!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    Does not mean we have to roll over and accept it like lambs.

    No more cuts.The goverment has taken so much off me already and the economic downturn has taken my job. If they leave me alone I will just scrape by. If they take any more... They will have to rehouse me.... Its there choice.

    I'm sorry you are suffering Joey... but I do have to point out that you seem to be doing well enough to have internet connectivity!


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