Everybody against Cuts!

alentejo

I poise a question. Who is willing to take a cut which will effect them personally? Everybody is now coming out with " no cuts which effect me....etc".

What people don't understand that we will are all going to be less well off or poorer no matter what.

MG

alentejo wrote: »

I poise a question. Who is willing to take a cut which will effect them personally? Everybody is now coming out with " no cuts which effect me....etc".

What people don't understand that we will are all going to be less well off or poorer no matter what.

I agree with the sentiment but in fact the majority of us would be better off fairly soon if we accepted the right but painful decisions now.

gurramok

The taxpayer don't pay my wages so whatever you are getting at doesn't affect me. Unless you are specifying frontline services, it will affect me if I ever have to use them(strike action)

My wages are determined by market conditions which has been terrible lately, paycuts everywhere in the MNC i work in!!

gamblor1975

The Govt. took on too many people and gave them too much money in nthe good times and now cannot afford to pay them. Cuts will have to be made either in the number of people working in the PS or preferably by taking a small pay cut across the PS so as to maintain frontline services.
I see SIPTU were on this morning looking for a 3.5% pay increase for the HSE workers. It just goes to show how out of touch with reality these guys are.

If everyone took a little pain we would get out of this mess sooner but listening to some of the unions they would prefer to go with the nuclear option of all out strike.

I think everyone should prepare for a series of unneccessary strikes which will affect everyone but that the Govt. cannot afford to give in to.

gandalf

alentejo wrote: »

I poise a question. Who is willing to take a cut which will effect them personally? Everybody is now coming out with " no cuts which effect me....etc".

What people don't understand that we will are all going to be less well off or poorer no matter what.

The thing is a large number of people who work in the private sector have taken cuts. We didn't have a choice. Others have taken the ultimate cut and lost their jobs.

Cuts have to happen, the country is spending too much and something has to give. The Unions from my perspective are living in cloud cuckoo land and have lost all grasp of the reality of the situation.

irish_bob

gamblor1975 wrote: »

The Govt. took on too many people and gave them too much money in nthe good times and now cannot afford to pay them. Cuts will have to be made either in the number of people working in the PS or preferably by taking a small pay cut across the PS so as to maintain frontline services.
I see SIPTU were on this morning looking for a 3.5% pay increase for the HSE workers. It just goes to show how out of touch with reality these guys are.

If everyone took a little pain we would get out of this mess sooner but listening to some of the unions they would prefer to go with the nuclear option of all out strike.

I think everyone should prepare for a series of unneccessary strikes which will affect everyone but that the Govt. cannot afford to give in to.

the unions led by the likes of jack o connor are engaged in a broader idealogical war , for them, its about much much more than cuts to teachers , nurses or garda pay , they see capitalism is wounded and they have had to suffer through decades of prosperity since the berlin wall came down in 1989 , o, connor believes his time has come

techdiver

irish_bob wrote: »

the unions led by the likes of jack o connor are engaged in a broader idealogical war , for them, its about much much more than cuts to teachers , nurses or garda pay , they see capitalism is wounded and they have had to suffer through decades of prosperity since the berlin wall came down in 1989 , o, connor believes his time has come

Great to see that a guy like O'Connor who earns €120K + preaching about this crap. Complete hypocrite if you ask me. He is a member of this so called high paid elite that he so vehemently vilifies!

P. Breathnach

I'll give a straight answer to the original question, and not use it as an opportunity to bash other groups within society: I am prepared to tolerate some reduction in my income (whether by cuts or increased taxes) for the general good.

I might as well take that position, because it's going to happen whether I like it or not. Resenting it, or getting angry about it, or wanting to blame others for it, would only make me feel worse.

Dozen Wicked Words

I wouldn't bang on the Governments door asking for a pay cut but would accept a fair one without any desire for industrial action. (Can I just ask them they keep it a bit lower than IrishBobenomics desire for 25% ).

I am just slightly concerned that I am not only going to be hit by a pay cut, but by big reduction in my 3 kids childrens allowance, a big hike in tax, a raise in car tax and carbon tax. Individually they are all tolerable and I would be able to absorb them, but as single income family with moderate mortgage (not an insane one thankfully) I am a little bit worried, like the rest of the country, the figures aren't going to balance.

Diarmuid

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I'll give a straight answer to the original question, and not use it as an opportunity to bash other groups within society: I am prepared to tolerate some reduction in my income (whether by cuts or increased taxes) for the general good.

Would you be willing to take a reduction in your income of €x to see that €x being flushed down the toilet the following day?

Why do you believe your cuts will be used "for the general good"? I don't see any indication that the huge increases in government spending in the past 10 years have produced equivalent improvements "for the general good".

I'm not so gung ho about unconditional reductions in my income.

P. Breathnach

Diarmuid wrote: »

Would you be willing to take a reduction in your income of €x to see that €x being flushed down the toilet the following day?

That's a typical argument against paying any tax. Of course it is possible to identify some waste, some inefficiencies, and some corruption. But the greatest part of exchequer spending is used fairly well.

Why do you believe your cuts will be used "for the general good"? I don't see any indication that the huge increases in government spending in the past 10 years have produced equivalent improvements "for the general good".

That depends on what you measure, and what you consider to be good.

I'm not so gung ho about unconditional reductions in my income.

There is a difference between being gung-ho and being resigned to the inevitable.

Diarmuid

P. Breathnach wrote: »

But the greatest part of exchequer spending is used fairly well.

Really? Any proof of that?

Here are the increases in the PS expenditure in the past 10 year.

Have we seen a 10% year on year improvement in the education of our children? Have we seen a 10% yoy improvement in our health system?

MaceFace

alentejo wrote: »

I poise a question. Who is willing to take a cut which will effect them personally? Everybody is now coming out with " no cuts which effect me....etc".

What people don't understand that we will are all going to be less well off or poorer no matter what.

IMO anyone who earns >50k is well paid.
This includes me and I would advocate and accept the following:
- child welfare abolished for well paid.
- early childcare supplement/free early school year - abolished
- 10 cents extra on petrol IF is is ringfenced to improve public transport
- property tax of ~500 a year if stamp duty abolished

Thats about €3200 a year out of my pocket (wow - thats a lot when I look at it that way).

I will be willing to do this if:
- senior public sector (including politicians) earning >150k have a 25% pay decrease, >100k=15%, >50k=10%, >35k=5%, >20k 3%
- social welfare cut of 5%
- minimum wage cut to western Europe average

There is probably a lot more other things I would like to see, but I think that if we can reduce the wages across the board, prices would fall likewise and we would all be better off. Its all about competitiveness!

P. Breathnach

Diarmuid wrote: »

Really? Any proof of that?

Have a dig here: http://www.audgen.gov.ie/ViewDoc.asp?fn=/home.asp

Here are the increases in the PS expenditure in the past 10 year.

Have we seen a 10% year on year improvement in the education of our children? Have we seen a 10% yoy improvement in our health system?

I have no idea. Neither, I suspect, do you.

Anyway, I am not interested in continuing this conversation. As I said in my first post in this thread

I'll give a straight answer to the original question, and not use it as an opportunity to bash other groups within society...

You have chosen to do some government-bashing. I'm just not interested in that in the context of this thread.

Diarmuid

P. Breathnach wrote: »

You have chosen to do some government-bashing.

If you want to see it like that, you're welcome. However when I spend my hard earned money I like to know that I'm getting value for it. Most people I know feel the same.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Anyway, I am not interested in continuing this conversation

Toys out of the pram time.


EDIT: And for the record there is plenty evidence that not only are we not getting a return for the huge investment in education but we are actually going backwards
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0919/1224254861540.html
"On education, he suggested there had been a slippage in standards at the higher levels."
The head of Google in Dublin said he could not fill positions due to lack of talent.
And there's plenty more from where that came from

P. Breathnach

Diarmuid wrote: »

... Toys out of the pram time.

That's bollocks. You snipped both the reason I gave and the fact that it was specifically in this thread that I chose not to have the discussion.

techdiver

Diarmuid wrote: »

If you want to see it like that, you're welcome. However when I spend my hard earned money I like to know that I'm getting value for it. Most people I know feel the same.



Toys out of the pram time.

If I may step in between this little spat for one moment.

I think the points about value for money and wise spending are valid, but I also believe that at this point in time the people of the country are getting bogged down and using this an excuse to not face reality. What is done cannot be undone unfortunately. We need to bridge the gap between revenue and expenditure and people arguing that they do not want to take the hit based on past or current wastage is not gong to solve any problems.

Like it or not, we are in serious trouble as a nation. We are tinkering close to the edge from a financial standpoint, and if the Unions in this country oppose any changes they will be responsible for pushing us over the edge and into national bankruptcy. In this event the IMF will come in and people will not know what hit them as the IMF will not answer to unions and will operate a cold hard calculated fiscal adjustment on the public finances whether the people of the nation like it or not.

Overheal

Nobody even wants to go outside to hold up a picket sign. What indication do you have that they are willing to endure cutbacks?

bonzos

How can anyone public or privare sector have any respect of the Gov after the way the john o donoghue spendig spree was handled.he wasted a fortune on living the high life and only after weeks of pressure he gave in and said one word "sorry" . that was the end of it all is forgiven,these crooks deserve no respect and the fools who kiss their ass and treat them like king also have a lot to answer for.

techdiver

bonzos wrote: »

How can anyone public or privare sector have any respect of the Gov after the way the john o donoghue spendig spree was handled.he wasted a fortune on living the high life and only after weeks of pressure he gave in and said one word "sorry" . that was the end of it all is forgiven,these crooks deserve no respect and the fools who kiss their ass and treat them like king also have a lot to answer for.

Once again I completely agree with you on these points, the f***er should be out on his ass now, but once again if you refer to my previous post above you will see that what I am saying is that regardless of the despicable behaviour of our elected representatives, we are still in a serious bind as a nation. Using these incidents as an excuse not to face the issues at hand is only cutting our nose off to spite our face.

Amhran Nua

bonzos wrote: »

How can anyone public or privare sector have any respect of the Gov after the way the john o donoghue spendig spree was handled.he wasted a fortune on living the high life and only after weeks of pressure he gave in and said one word "sorry" . that was the end of it all is forgiven,these crooks deserve no respect and the fools who kiss their ass and treat them like king also have a lot to answer for.

Isn't it mad though. They feel secure enough in their power that even an apology is beneath them. Haughey taught them well.

MaceFace

techdiver wrote: »

Once again I completely agree with you on these points, the f***er should be out on his ass now, but once again if you refer to my previous post above you will see that what I am saying is that regardless of the despicable behaviour of our elected representatives, we are still in a serious bind as a nation. Using these incidents as an excuse not to face the issues at hand is only cutting our nose off to spite our face.

So I gather from the lack of details to the question posed in this thread that none of the posters are willing to accept any cutbacks?

jimmmy

Diarmuid wrote: »

However when I spend my hard earned money I like to know that I'm getting value for it. Most people I know feel the same.



Toys out of the pram time.


EDIT: And for the record there is plenty evidence that not only are we not getting a return for the huge investment in education but we are actually going backwards
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0919/1224254861540.html
"On education, he suggested there had been a slippage in standards at the higher levels."
The head of Google in Dublin said he could not fill positions due to lack of talent.
And there's plenty more from where that came from

I agree with you there. One area where cuts could and will come is in the area of public service pensions ; why do retiring p.s. on completion of service get one and a half years salary tax free, as well as 50% pension ?

These are the sort of pensions people retiring now (a) public service people retiring now have never contributed anything like the full cost of (b) private sector people can only dream of. There was a report a while ago of the Garda taking early retirement having an average pension pot of over 1 million euro. Eddie Hobbs said on Frontline the other evening that Gardai would need to be paying 48% of their salary towards their pension if they were paying the full economic cost.
There are massive savings to be made there.

jimmmy

MaceFace wrote: »

So I gather from the lack of details to the question posed in this thread that none of the posters are willing to accept any cutbacks?

In fairness, P. Breathnach, a retired public servant, wrote he would " tolerate some reduction in my income (whether by cuts or increased taxes) for the general good.";)

If I was on a p.s. pension so would I.

irish_bob

MaceFace wrote: »

IMO anyone who earns >50k is well paid.
This includes me and I would advocate and accept the following:
- child welfare abolished for well paid.
- early childcare supplement/free early school year - abolished
- 10 cents extra on petrol IF is is ringfenced to improve public transport
- property tax of ~500 a year if stamp duty abolished

Thats about €3200 a year out of my pocket (wow - thats a lot when I look at it that way).

I will be willing to do this if:
- senior public sector (including politicians) earning >150k have a 25% pay decrease, >100k=15%, >50k=10%, >35k=5%, >20k 3%
- social welfare cut of 5%
- minimum wage cut to western Europe average

There is probably a lot more other things I would like to see, but I think that if we can reduce the wages across the board, prices would fall likewise and we would all be better off. Its all about competitiveness!

not a single thing in this post that i disagree with

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

In fairness, P. Breathnach, a retired public servant, wrote he would " tolerate some reduction in my income (whether by cuts or increased taxes) for the general good.";)

If I was on a p.s. pension so would I.

Somehow, jimmmy, you managed to invest that with an unpleasant tone. What I said is entirely unrelated to the source of my income.

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Somehow, jimmmy, you managed to invest that with an unpleasant tone. What I said is entirely unrelated to the source of my income.

No unpleasant tone was given or intended. I was merely clarifying Macefaces post where he / she wrote just before that about " none of the posters are willing to accept any cutbacks? "

MaceFace

jimmmy wrote: »

No unpleasant tone was given or intended. I was merely clarifying Macefaces post where he / she wrote just before that about " none of the posters are willing to accept any cutbacks? "

Has anyone else said what they would be willing to accept?
Be honest and open - its not like someone will track you down and say you posted this and therefore we are taking it off you.

I am trying to get a sensible discussion going not the usual slagging off of each other which these discussions always descend into.

jimmmy

MaceFace wrote: »

Has anyone else said what they would be willing to accept?

I am willing to accept huge cutbacks in government spending....virtually every dept. I would prefer this than further excessive govt borrowing for my children + grandchildren to repay with interest. If the govt departments had the same budgets to spend as 5 or 6 years ago many billions could be saved....let them decide how to spend it.

Dannyboy83

MaceFace wrote: »

Has anyone else said what they would be willing to accept?
Be honest and open - its not like someone will track you down and say you posted this and therefore we are taking it off you.

I am trying to get a sensible discussion going not the usual slagging off of each other which these discussions always descend into.

I've already answered here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62327983&postcount=33

NewDubliner

jimmmy wrote: »

One area where cuts could and will come is in the area of public service pensions ; why do retiring p.s. on completion of service get one and a half years salary tax free, as well as 50% pension ?

Because when they took the jobs this was part of the terms and conditions. At the time, those T&Cs were quite normal when compared to similar work.

In the same way as up to a year ago, people signed up to huge mortgages and still must pay them off.

So, you make a deal with someone you keep to it, right?