The Debate on the Lisbon Debate

marco_polo

And we are off and running in the great Boards.ie Lisbon Debate, it has officially commenced with the first post by FT.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055695799

An Fear Aniar

Strong (and very lengthy:eek:) start from Future Teeshock of the NO side. It will be interesting to see how the debate works out on a practical level. Will it be Wall of Text v Wall of Text or will it be in-close point and counterpoint?

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mikom

An Fear Aniar wrote: »

Strong (and very lengthy:eek:) start from Future Teeshock of the NO side. It will be interesting to see how the debate works out on a practical level. Will it be Wall of Text v Wall of Text or will it be in-close point and counterpoint?

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I'm holding out for LoL cats.

turgon

A good start by FutureTaoiseach for sure, and he has really put the pressure on immediately. It will now be up to the Yes side campaign to seriously address the concerns he has raised and to see if they are concrete and relevant. In terms of debating he has certainly opened well by commenting not only on what Lisbon does do but also what it doesn't do, ie the widening of the "democratic-deficit" merely by non-action is an interesting thought.

gerTheGreat

I'm certainly most interested in seeing how the Yes side counters FT's interperatation of QMV, as this I feel, is the key aspect of the Threaty.

Red Sleeping Beauty

What's the process here ? Are both sides just going to be posting on the one thread with a topic of subject throwing points and quotes back and forth and having a discussion a la the Euro forum or will each team write their own threads ? Why did FT make a debating post on a thread introducing the debate ?

Red Sleeping Beauty

stevenmartin99 wrote: »

Dont WASTE YOUR VOTE!
If your unsure of what to vote look at http://www.coircampaign.org/index.ph...actsandfigures

If your unsure of what to vote - VOTE NO!

Dont vote YES if you are unsure of why you are doing so

Page not found

:rolleyes:

Daftendirekt

Interesting opening by FT.

He seems to have put a lot of emphasis on the COFR. Too many eggs in one basket? If this point is successfully refuted, his main objection (in FT's own words) goes out the window.

It'll be interesting to see how the Yes side tackle his points about the Justice opt-out too.

marco_polo

Prertty solid start in all fairness, make some good points overall. I think the arguments based on the COFR will be vunerable however.

Alan Rouge wrote: »

What's the process here ? Are both sides just going to be posting on that one thread throwing points and quotes back and forth and having a discussion a la the Euro forum or will each team write their own threads ? Why did FT make a debating post on a thread introducing the debate ?

One mega thread I think.

andrew

Something I don't get is that often reasons are given for voting No which the person voting No sees as self explanitory, but which aren't. At least not to me.

Future Taoiseach mentioned that "Irish democracy is also undermined by the Charter of Fundamental Rights, which cannot be changed by the Irish people and statm on their own if Lisbon comes into force." Given the track record the EU has of giving Irish people rights we didn't have under our own law (such as the law against homosexuality, which was appealed to Europe), I want an explanation as to why having the ECHR decide our rights is a bad thing.

Also, I want to know why people object to voting power going in line with a country's population. I guarentee that were the shoe on the other foot we'd be complaining a lot about how smaller countries get a disproportnate influence.

I also despise the way in which the word 'democracy' is thrown around as if it had a single agreed upon meaning in every situation.

turgon

Thats actually a very good point andrew. FT opens with "The Lisbon Treaty undermines Irish sovereignty." What is not explained is why Irish sovereignty is so precious.

I dont where the Yes side are?

Lockstep

A very good start to the debate (There seems to be a lot of Yes voters on Boards so I was worried that the debate would be a bit lopsided.

Am looking forward to seeing the response.

K-9

turgon wrote: »

Thats actually a very good point andrew. FT opens with "The Lisbon Treaty undermines Irish sovereignty." What is not explained is why Irish sovereignty is so precious.

I dont where the Yes side are?

I'd say that will be the counter point alright.

He mentions less control over immigration and asylum too, which usually go down well with a lot of No voters.

Daftendirekt

When do the yes side post their first response? Or do they just post whenever they're ready?

marco_polo

turgon wrote: »

I dont where the Yes side are?

Judging by how often the four of them have posted in the EU forum today, they have all either been site banned, or are very busy

Soul Winner

I'm waiting over 6 months to hear any positives for voting Yes to the Lisbon Treaty, so a couple more days won’t hurt. All we get are promises that what we already have in Europe we will get, if Lisbon is ratified. Is it just me or is there something seriously wrong with the reasoning of the Yes side? Me thinks that fear his made them loose their marbles, all common sense has been kicked to the curb in this country and the shadow of fear is eagerly awaiting to rule the masses. I have a motto I teach my kids about bullies and bullying: "Don't stand for bullying - Be brave and confront it head on."

Be Brave and Vote NO to Lisbon!!!

Dinner

Soul Winner wrote: »

I'm waiting over 6 months to hear any positives for voting Yes to the Lisbon Treaty, so a couple more days won’t hurt. All we get are promises that what we already have in Europe we will get, if Lisbon is ratified. Is it just me or is there something seriously wrong with the reasoning of the Yes side? Me thinks that fear his made them loose their marbles, all common sense has been kicked to the curb in this country and the shadow of fear is eagerly awaiting to rule the masses. I have a motto I teach my kids about bullies and bullying: "Don't stand for bullying - Be brave and confront it head on."

Be Brave and Vote NO to Lisbon!!!

Seriously? You're going to turn the debating forum into soapboxing. If you want to have a debate on Lisbon go over to the EU forum this forum is to discuss the debate.

bonkey

K-9 wrote: »

I'd say that will be the counter point alright.

I expect the counter-point will also include how the potrayal of the QMV changes is inaccurate and incomplete....that it is a misrepresentation of what will happen that casts the changes in an unfavourable-but-inaccurate light.

He mentions less control over immigration and asylum too, which usually go down well with a lot of No voters.

Absolutely...they'll go down a storm with people who've already made their minds up to agree with FT's conclusions.

As an argument, though, I found the immigration/asylum slant unconvincing.

Soul Winner

Dinner wrote: »

Seriously? You're going to turn the debating forum into soapboxing. If you want to have a debate on Lisbon go over to the EU forum this forum is to discuss the debate.

Hey? You're not the boss of me! Just kidding. Sorry for the soapboaxing. I gets carried away sometimes. I think FT has made too strong an opening statement and the Yes siders are still like deers caught in the headlights. :pac:

Pride Fighter

Excellent opening by FutureTaoiseach. There are many reasons to vote no and he has not even used all of them.

ztoical

andrew wrote: »

Something I don't get is that often reasons are given for voting No which the person voting No sees as self explanitory, but which aren't. At least not to me.

Future Taoiseach mentioned that "Irish democracy is also undermined by the Charter of Fundamental Rights, which cannot be changed by the Irish people and statm on their own if Lisbon comes into force." Given the track record the EU has of giving Irish people rights we didn't have under our own law (such as the law against homosexuality, which was appealed to Europe), I want an explanation as to why having the ECHR decide our rights is a bad thing.

+ 1 I'd like an explanation as well...from womens rights to gay rights the EU has been better for us then our own government.

marco_polo

bonkey wrote: »

As an argument, though, I found the immigration/asylum slant unconvincing.

It seems clear that the British Protocols are unequivocal clarifications that the scope of the charter does not extend to the level of national law, rather than opt ouots and weakens its use as the foundation for the argument that it is does apply for Ireland.

Sully

FT generally says the same thing on repeat - a lot of which is not correct. Pinch of salt tbh. Yes side should easily shoot back and get the upper hand.

K-9

bonkey wrote: »

I expect the counter-point will also include how the potrayal of the QMV changes is inaccurate and incomplete....that it is a misrepresentation of what will happen that casts the changes in an unfavourable-but-inaccurate light.


Absolutely...they'll go down a storm with people who've already made their minds up to agree with FT's conclusions.

As an argument, though, I found the immigration/asylum slant unconvincing.

Indeed, very true. For all the talk about QMV we get no, or very poor examples of it affecting us.

While that will be a positive in the points for QMV, it will be a positive for FT's immigration and asylum points, regardless of how the EU had nothing to do with decisions on the derogation. People see that as the EU interfering in their lives, whether that is true or not.

BlitzKrieg

briefly done. I'm in the middle of drawing 30 storyboards and will be up all night so I shall keep picking at things until my post limit is empty.

(are debators allowed to post here?)

Daftendirekt

Good response to FT's opening, BlitzKrieg.

That takes care of the two most important points anyway.

K-9

Good post from Random Name bringing up the democracy point.

Ireland has arrived where we are at by Referenda.

SEA, Maastricht, Amsterdam, Nice 1 and Nice 2. They have been accepted by Referenda.

marco_polo

K-9 wrote: »

Good post from Random Name bringing up the democracy point.

Ireland has arrived where we are at by Referenda.

SEA, Maastricht, Amsterdam, Nice 1 and Nice 2. They have been accepted by Referenda.

I thought that this point was weak because the member states are the sole authorities on what powers are conferred upon the Union via the treaties, always have, and always will be. The Union does not get to choose anything in this process.

"We have pooled our individual sovereignty to create a single state, but now that single state is choosing to pool the sovereignty which we have granted it with like-minded governments"

Pride Fighter

No side ahead so far. Good points to blitzkrieg but FutureTaoiseach was just a bit better, my opinion though.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

K-9

The QMV could be crucial.

Even after FT's post, it still looks like 4 states is the normal blocking minority and not the 35%. This is a key point and seeing as nearly everybody was referring to the 35% blocking population as a big state power grab, could be crucial.

Is one of the No sides central points, not true or not as important as made out?