lets talk about lisbon treaty

gissmoo

Hi People of Ireland. I want to talk with you on this forum and want to know your opinion about the lisbon treaty that you will vote on in a few days.

I want to know pro and cons. Im a polish blogger, blogger of site <snip> - i want to know what you think about lisbon treaty and want to report that to my blogger fellows in poland.

We think that the way the lisbon treaty is established is some kind of totalitaristic way.. And believe me that we polish have historical points with that kind of treating people.

I was censored twice for my previous topics:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055694178
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055694215

I've made a talk with moderator Scofflaw and he told me privately that forum isnt a megaphone and that was a reason for closing the topics. Ok - he was right - lets talk than.

What do u think about Treaty of Lisbon. We - polish bloggers want to talk with you.

Rb

Stop spamming, if you're curious about how we feel read the many threads on the subject that are in this forum.

BlitzKrieg

i'm in favour of Lisbon.

Its productive, how it was established was via the process all european treaties were established, the EU has nothing to do with the ratification that was left to the individual soverign nations to do by their constitutional process. I dont know the constitutional process of Poland, maybe you could enlighten us. I have had a wonderful time reading up on the French and Dutch constitutional process, I guess it would be nice to learn how it works in all 27 member states (make a good video too.)

gissmoo

this is not a specialistic forum that only give knowlege (electronics) but that allow people to talk (politics are very close to philosophy) Right? I want to talk on international aspects of rejecting/accepting a lisbon treaty. I wanted to know aanswers for questions. I want to write my opinion - what is wrong if ill do that - thats spam?

1. what do you think about not respecting your will givent to EU once when you said NO
2. what do you think about this method - after rejecting Constitution in France and netherlands the changed the name and format of document and still trying to establish that law?
3. Dont you think the EU Commision doest have thin in common with democracy which is on mouths of every european politics?
4. Why EU is turning to central managed, ruled body? Where are ours independencies? bannanas cant be straight, cucumbers cant be round

Rb

1: I appreciate the EU addressing our concerns and asking us to vote on it again. It is a necessary reform treaty which will be good for the EU, they've spent an enormous amount of time and money on it and have provided us with a solution that actually should suit everyone.

2: Yes, the Constitution was rejected in France and Holland so they took out the parts France and Holland had a problem with, which also took out the parts requiring a referendum, and gave it to their democratically elected government representatives to choose to ratify or not. Now they've provided us with a solution and we are voting on it, I don't see any problem with it, especially since the No side can't find one reason based in the treaty to vote No this time.

3: What?

4: It's no doubt that the EU is becoming more policially integrated, however I believe you'll find we're still very independent nations which are ruled from the inside.

gissmoo

blitzkrieg - nice nick It reminds me totalitarisms of XX century.

In poland ratification of multilateral international act goes that way:

1. Parliament votes on that act of law
2. President signs this
3. act is established

In Poland as in Germany and Czech Republic president havent signed it yet.

Problem is that our constitution says that when international act is restricting our independence than it should be voted on referendum obligatory. We didn't.. Why? We dont know - we re helplessness (so my appeal - its voice of desperance) Our government is treating us like sheeps - they even hadnt read the Treaty. Law is being broken in Poland. They only see their own businesses in accepting treaty. They do the same (our goverment) as they in EU - there not asking us for nothing. Besides - all mainstream media in poland are in postcomunists hands. Postcomunists made own businesses on transformation and live well. Years ago they served Moscow - now they serve Brussels. We are helpless - understand me correct - please - and dont treat me like spammer or agent of someones organization or sth. Im only a bloger from polish bloggers community..

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

BlitzKrieg

1. what do you think about not respecting your will givent to EU once when you said NO

The EU had nothing to do with it, it was the decision of the Irish government. They felt they had gotten gaurantees that things that were not in the treaty were really not in the treaty (seems there was some confusion spread around in the prior campaign about issues like neutrality and abortion) and that this was substantial enough to ease the majority's doubts. Its not clear right now if this is true we will have to wait til Friday.

2. what do you think about this method - after rejecting Constitution in France and netherlands the changed the name and format of document and still trying to establish that law?

I answered this in detail in a prior thread, but the process that was done to create Lisbon adheared to the wishes of both the French and the Dutch, the constitutional element of the EU constitution (its context) has been completely removed. They approved it via their own constitutional methods.

a longer detailed breakdown of the difference between constitution and Lisbon here:http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055693585

3. Dont you think the EU Commision doest have thin in common with democracy which is on mouths of every european politics?

I'm sorry I'm not sure what you are asking here.

4. Why EU is turning to central managed, ruled body? Where are ours independencies? bannanas cant be straight, cucumbers cant be round

The banana's cant be straight myth is an urban legend it has no truth behind it. The EU is a system of cooperation between soverign nations nationally laws are still applied via the national government and national governments have direct control of half of the institutes of the EU and the third is nominated by them. Only the EU parliament is not under the direct control of national governments.

gissmoo

Rb wrote: »

1: I appreciate the EU addressing our concerns and asking us to vote on it again. It is a necessary reform treaty which will be good for the EU, they've spent an enormous amount of time and money on it and have provided us with a solution that actually should suit everyone.

Yes they spent millions of euro on propaganda. Right And it works - i think. Money/media win every campaigns. But what they really done? What they changed. have you red that treaty? It was changed in a lees than a percent..

Rb wrote: »

2: Yes, the Constitution was rejected in France and Holland so they took out the parts France and Holland had a problem with, which also took out the parts requiring a referendum, and gave it to their democratically elected government representatives to choose to ratify or not. Now they've provided us with a solution and we are voting on it, I don't see any problem with it, especially since the No side can't find one reason based in the treaty to vote No this time.

Concretely - what was changed in constitution as treaty?? Cosmetical changes.. Merkel said true that the sense is being kept.

Rb wrote: »

3: What?

Members of EU Commission are not elected in a democratic way..

Rb wrote: »

4: It's no doubt that the EU is becoming more policially integrated, however I believe you'll find we're still very independent nations which are ruled from the inside.

But the tendency? Its not threating? Dangerous? Dont you now cycles of aristoteles? Democracies turn into...??? Now we hve still controll. But what will be later? We had comunism in our country ;/ Its not good when you cant say a word.. Centralisation is not good for communities..

BlitzKrieg

Problem is that our constitution says that when international act is restricting our independence than it should be voted on referendum obligatory.

not according to article 90 of your constitution

Article 90 []

(1) The Republic of Poland may, by virtue of international agreements, delegate to an international organization or international institution the competence of organs of State authority in relation to certain matters.
(2) A statute, granting consent for ratification of an international agreement referred to in Paragraph (1), shall be passed by the House of Representatives (Sejm) by a two-thirds majority vote in the presence of at least half of the statutory number of Deputies, and by the Senate by a two-thirds majority vote in the presence of at least half of the statutory number of Senators.
(3) Granting of consent for ratification of such agreement may also be passed by a nationwide referendum in accordance with the provisions of Article 125.
(4) Any resolution in respect of the choice of procedure for granting consent to ratification shall be taken by the House of Representatives (Sejm) by an absolute majority vote taken in the presence of at least half of the statutory number of Deputies.

source: http://www.servat.unibe.ch/icl/pl00000_.html


EDIT: article 125:

Article 125 []

(1) A nationwide referendum may be held in respect of matters of particular importance to the State.
(2) The right to order a nationwide referendum shall be vested in the House of Representatives (Sejm), to be taken by an absolute majority of votes in the presence of at least half of the statutory number of Deputies, or in the President of the Republic with the consent of the Senate given by an absolute majority vote taken in the presence of at least half of the statutory number of Senators.
(3) A result of a nationwide referendum shall be binding, if more than half of the number of those having the right to vote have participated in it.
(4) The validity of a nationwide referendum and the referendum referred to in Article 235 (6) shall be determined by the Supreme Court.
(5) The principles of and procedures for the holding of a referendum shall be specified by statute.

If there was no referendum you better check who voted against it in your own national parliament and who voted for it. If it was even brought up to begin with.

referendum is an option its not necessary. Your constitution has a similar layout to the French constitution in that there is no requirement for referendum.

This is a national issue for Poland and I recommend if it is important to you that you bring it up in the next general election.


And my nick is irrelevent on the discussion at hand.

Scofflaw

gissmoo wrote: »

blitzkrieg - nice nick It reminds me totalitarisms of XX century.

In poland ratification of multilateral international act goes that way:

1. Parliament votes on that act of law
2. President signs this
3. act is established

In Poland as in Germany and Czech Republic president havent signed it yet.

In fact, Germany has ratified.

gissmoo wrote: »

Problem is that our constitution says that when international act is restricting our independence than it should be voted on referendum obligatory. We didn't.. Why? We dont know - we re helplessness (so my appeal - its voice of desperance) Our government is treating us like sheeps - they even hadnt read the Treaty. Law is being broken in Poland.

I'm afraid you don't have such a requirement:

Constitution of Poland wrote:

Article 89

1. Ratification of an international agreement by the Republic of Poland, as well as denunciation thereof, shall require prior consent granted by statute - if such agreement concerns:

1) peace, alliances, political or military treaties;
2) freedoms, rights or obligations of citizens, as specified in the Constitution;
3) the Republic of Poland's membership in an international organization;
4) considerable financial responsibilities imposed on the State;
5) matters regulated by statute or those in respect of which the Constitution requires the form of a statute.

2. The President of the Council of Ministers (the Prime Minister) shall inform the Sejm of any intention to submit, for ratification by the President of the Republic, any international agreements whose ratification does not require consent granted by statute.

3. The principles of and procedures for the conclusion and renunciation of international agreements shall be specified by statute.

Article 90

1. The Republic of Poland may, by virtue of international agreements, delegate to an international organization or international institution the competence of organs of State authority in relation to certain matters.

2. A statute, granting consent for ratification of an international agreement referred to in para.1, shall be passed by the Sejm by a two-thirds majority vote in the presence of at least half of the statutory number of Deputies, and by the Senate by a two-thirds majority vote in the presence of at least half of the statutory number of Senators.

3. Granting of consent for ratification of such agreement may also be passed by a nationwide referendum in accordance with the provisions of Article 125.

4. Any resolution in respect of the choice of procedure for granting consent to ratification shall be taken by the Sejm by an absolute majority vote taken in the presence of at least half of the statutory number of Deputies.

What you have is the option for a referendum, not a requirement, same as the French.

gissmoo wrote: »

They only see their own businesses in accepting treaty. They do the same (our goverment) as they in EU - there not asking us for nothing. Besides - all mainstream media in poland are in postcomunists hands. Postcomunists made own businesses on transformation and live well. Years ago they served Moscow - now they serve Brussels. We are helpless - understand me correct - please - and dont treat me like spammer or agent of someones organization or sth. Im only a bloger from polish bloggers community..

I'm certainly not assuming you're anybody's agent, but it remains the case that this is not your referendum. Do please bear that in mind.

[EDIT]Blitzkrieg FTW![/EDIT]

cordially,
Scofflaw

BlitzKrieg

I ACTUALLY BEAT SCOFFLAW TO A NERDY RESPONSE!!!


WHOOT!


I am the king nerd now.

DO THE DANCE!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXK9ShllebQ

hatrickpatrick

I'm opposed to absolutely anything which sees the creation of any sort of federal government or is seen as a step towards this. I am in favour of smaller regional government, not bigger supernational government. The Lisbon Treaty transfers new competences to the EU in the area of foreign policy and this is one of my main reasons for opposing. Each nation should be free to decide its international allegiances and positions.

I am also opposing on the grounds that the people have spoken. I refuse to be bullied. The Constitution has already been voted down by several countries, it was rewritten to bypass the will of the people. the people once again rejected it and they are now being asked to vote again with promises of armageddon for their country if they vote no. Such unbelievable coercion is utterly inexcusable and if it's any sign for what a future federal Europe would behave like, I want no part in it.

I am in favour of an economic union, but internal domestic politics should be reduced to the smallest region possible to give the citizens the fullest possible direct control. Not only am I opposed to a federal Europe, I support decentralization from the national government to the local councils, and further along until we have a situation where elected officials are much more directly accountable to their electorate, and therefore must follow the will of the people rather than their own policies.

sceptre

gissmoo wrote: »

Yes they spent millions of euro on propaganda. Right And it works - i think. Money/media win every campaigns. But what they really done? What they changed. have you red that treaty? It was changed in a lees than a percent..

Might not help your case but even assuming your one percent to be accurate, I believe it was only earlier today that there are still significant differences between me and a chimpanzee, despite having only about the same difference in DNA. I've got lots of DNA (plenty to spare as it happens) but the Lisbon treaty and earlier proposed constitution both have lots of words. Even a one percent difference (and let's be honest, it's more) is a significant difference when that includes additional optouts, not having the flag, motto and anthem legally binding, the delay on the new voting procedure for five years (incidentally through pressure from your own government), additional clauses on climate change, retention of directives as directives, the old naming procedure for institutions retaining the EU as a confederation more so than a new state and that the Lisbon treaty is an amendment to previous treaties as opposed to a refounding of the entire institution with one new document.

Such small things, this small percent or two, confirm that neither I nor you are chimpanzees.

Have a position on the Lisbon Treaty, whichever it is - yes or no. Personally I couldn't give a damn which as long as it's informed, which unfortunately it doesn't seem to be. But that whole "ZOMG, only a tiny amount has changed" is ignoring the significance of the bits that are changed. Concentrating on the amount of words rather than the content is misdirection and time-wasting. I'm not a fan of either misdirection or timewasting. You shouldn't be either - think of all the time you'd save.

And as I've said countless times to people from other states who post here and disappear, I'm voting for me, as an Irish voter accepting or rejecting the Lisbon treaty for Ireland. I'm sorry that your constitution isn't developed enough that you get an individual vote on issues of sovereignty but that's not my problem. I didn't have much of an opinion apart from a giggle with my Polish friends when you guys voted in Tweedledee and Tweedledum to run Poland, I respect your country's decision and method of decision on the Lisbon treaty and demand and deserve the same respect from you guys to be able to cast my vote as I want to, not how you'd like me to. That's democracy.

gissmoo

Scofflaw wrote: »

In fact, Germany has ratified.

Not fully - they stopped on Constitutional Tribune
See that: http://www.youtube.com/v/ETxkUf2U0rk&hl=pl&fs=1&

Scofflaw wrote: »

I'm afraid you don't have such a requirement:
What you have is the option for a referendum, not a requirement, same as the French.

You're right i made a mistake:

Art. 90.

1. Rzeczpospolita Polska może na podstawie umowy międzynarodowej przekazać organizacji międzynarodowej lub organowi międzynarodowemu kompetencje organów władzy państwowej w niektórych sprawach.
2. Ustawa wyrażająca zgodę na ratyfikację umowy międzynarodowej, o której mowa w ust. 1, jest uchwalana przez Sejm większością 2/3 głosów w obecności co najmniej połowy ustawowej liczby posłów oraz przez Senat większością 2/3 głosów w obecności co najmniej połowy ustawowej liczby senatorów.
3. Wyrażenie zgody na ratyfikację takiej umowy może być uchwalone w referendum ogólnokrajowym zgodnie z przepisem art. 125.
4. Uchwałę w sprawie wyboru trybu wyrażenia zgody na ratyfikację podejmuje Sejm bezwzględną większością głosów w obecności co najmniej połowy ustawowej liczby posłów.

Art. 125.

1. W sprawach o szczególnym znaczeniu dla państwa może być przeprowadzone referendum ogólnokrajowe.

But restricting our independencie is serious thing. People are SOVEREIGN. Politics only work for us - in fact they are cheating us!

Mozart1986

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

The banana's cant be straight myth is an urban legend it has no truth behind it.

You don't know what you are talkin' about. That is common knowledge. It is a way to stop the African Nations from flooding the EU with food and putting European farmers out of business. It is actually a good policy, even if it is hypocritical in the sense that we advocate free trade and then deny it when it isn't in our interests. Unfortunately the Irish government is selling its farmers down the river which middle class, university educated people don't understand. They don't understand that you can't relearn the skills involved in farming as quick as you can destroy them, and with the coming international food crisis it isn't just foolish, it is f&$kin' dangerous.

They did a piece on that malformed produce issue on the BBC a few weeks ago. It was a long running series about world food production. You are full of facts but you don't see fit to research them. Typical arrogant Yes voter.

Johnboy1951

I noticed a quotation attributed to Jean Monnet on your blog ... in a comment maybe

‘Europe’s nations should be guided towards the super-state without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation.’

It appears from this site
http://eurealist.co.uk/archives/676

that the attribution is incorrect.

Monnet may well have agreed with the sentiments but the attribution apparently is incorrect.

Seems this is quoted in lots of blogs/sites ........

BlitzKrieg

You don't know what you are talkin' about. That is common knowledge. It is a way to stop the African Nations from flooding the EU with food and putting European farmers out of business.

They require banana's not to be straight to stop african farmers???

list of euromyths from the BBC, you will find the straight banana on there

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6481969.stm

gissmoo

sceptre wrote: »

Might not help your case but even assuming your one percent to be accurate, I believe it was only earlier today that there are still significant differences between me and a chimpanzee, despite having only about the same difference in DNA.

We and animals differ in a such symbolic way as the lisbon treaty and constitution?? I dont think so. Entity is the same.. Flag, motto etc - its symbolic. What for is symbolics to men at power? Sense is the same.. Superstate. We and monks have different CPUs - great difference

Do yopu think that in a new five years they again will ask you for Your Vote...?
(retoric) They never ask

My constitution is not your problem? What for then we are uniting? If my fate is not your problem???? Youre egoist - than say NO twice!!

Thats similar to my "thats not my problem" for my neigbour comleining a problem of our "common leaky roof.." Cant u see that we live in the same Europe? And your Yes or NO will affect Us!!

gissmoo

Mozart1986 wrote: »

You don't know what you are talkin' about. That is common knowledge. It is a way to stop the African Nations from flooding the EU with food and putting European farmers out of business. It is actually a good policy, even if it is hypocritical in the sense that we advocate free trade and then deny it w

Im a lawyer. EU law is full of stupid directives. What for that all sh*t? An we pay for that..

Mozart1986

Substitute straight banana for malformed fruit and veg. It is the same argument and completely true. It isn't a myth its a fact. You can't import malformed produce into the EU from Africa, whether the straight banana example was wrong or not. It is a misrepresentation or misstatement of EXACTLY the same argument.

gissmoo

Mozart1986 wrote: »

Substitute straight banana for malformed fruit and veg. It is the same argument and completely true. It isn't a myth its a fact. You can't import malformed produce into the EU from Africa, whether the straight banana example was wrong or not. It is a misrepresentation or misstatement of EXACTLY the same argument.

There are norms on food. So you cant buy too big or too smal vegetable like tomato.. Becouse its a norma. Lets say - if you like too small tomatoes, apples? Lucky in poland this normas are not respected properly. We dont have not much artifficial (uniformed and united) food

BlitzKrieg

but they are not banned. THey are classed as a lower quality fruit. NO BANANA'S HAVE BEEN BANNED!

Now on the matter of importing products (specifically agriculture) from Africa, that is a different matter and is not restricted to bananas.

We are getting multiple different laws from different departments mixed up here.

Do yopu think that in a new five years they again will ask you for Your Vote...?
(retoric) They never ask

Whether they ask has nothing to do with the EU, all amendments to the European Treaties are required to go through the constitutional process of the member states, which means its *again* up to your national government. Considering you have an election for your national assembly in 2011 that gives you 2 years to get it on the manifesto of one of your major parties that referendums must be used for all international treaty amendments.

gissmoo

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

Whether they ask has nothing to do with the EU, all amendments to the European Treaties are required to go through the constitutional process of the member states, which means its *again* up to your national government. Considering you have an election for your national assembly in 2011 that gives you 2 years to get it on the manifesto of one of your major parties that referendums must be used for all international treaty amendments.

I have on mind that NO is temporary, but YES is for ever. Get this? If you have freedom they will try to get it from You until they get it. Once they have your freedom, they wont ask you.. You like it? EU is rising totalitarism.. Once they will have our all freedoms they wont ask anymore.. Its all about globalizing - making their own business more profitable. See that only the profit counts.. Human rights, freedoms are only slogans.

BlitzKrieg

...


you know I'm beginning to see a circuler issue here with this discussion.

So to break the flow and to point out the glaringly obvious.

We have a thread called Lets talk about Lisbon treaty.

And we havnt actually had a single post in the thread about the lisbon treaty.

We got banana laws, polish constitution, eu constitution and the possible totalitarism of the EU (though pointing out that the issues you have all tie directly back to your national government seems to have no effect here.).

SO I'll ask the question which I get the feeling I might regret.

What in the Lisbon Treaty do you have issues with?

sceptre

gissmoo wrote: »

We and animals differ in a such symbolic way as the lisbon treaty and constitution?? I dont think so. Entity is the same.. Flag, motto etc - its symbolic. What for is symbolics to men at power? Sense is the same.. Superstate. We and monks have different CPUs - great difference

Sigh.

I shouldn't have bothered, the analogy was wasted. Feel free to re-read my post above at some later point when it becomes clearer.

Do yopu think that in a new five years they again will ask you for Your Vote...?
(retoric) They never ask

Under our constitution they'll have to if it involves any surrender of sovereignty. Unlike yours but then that's a protection we gave to ourselves. I'd recommend it highly.

My constitution is not your problem? What for then we are uniting? If my fate is not your problem???? Youre egoist - than say NO twice!!

Dude, my ego at times could fill a whole house but that's irrelevant. I would suggest that you take care of your own constitution. I don't have the legal standing to do it. You do. Asking me to take care of your constitutional issues is a waste of your time. You guys should really have changed it so you'd have to vote. But you chose not to.

Thats similar to my "thats not my problem" for my neigbour comleining a problem of our "common leaky roof.." Cant u see that we live in the same Europe? And your Yes or NO will affect Us!!

I wasn't complaining when your government decision affected me. You elected them. Don't come crying to me if they didn't follow your wishes. Take it up with them. Just like we have to do with ours when they sell the country down the river. They've been doing it for about a decade and I'm sore about it but other people voted them in. That's democracy. Unfortunately. I can offer you a bit of help if your roof is leaking but if your government doesn't do what your citizens want? Get another one. But you'll have to do that yourselves as I don't have a Polish vote. But I have one next Friday. A better Polish constitution would sort out all your problems. Fix article 90 subsection 3 for a start. Offering you that advice is the best help anyone in this country can offer you. And it's free.

I might sound like I'm uncaring but I hold Irish sovereignty dear. And Polish sovereignty dear. I wouldn't want to go interfering in your country as treaty ratification is within the domain of the individual member states. We make our decision our way, you make your decision your way. I'm sorry you didn't get your own vote on it but that's the way your country is run. I think monarchies are silly myself but I'm not going to go asking the UK or the Netherlands to get rid of theirs as it's their own business. Ditto with regard to how the treaty is ratified or refused. We have our method of decision, you have yours. You should really consider adopting our method in future. I think it's better, apparently so do you.


See, you came here saying that you were looking for opinion. You get offered some and you argue with them. I don't believe you when you say you're looking for feedback to take back to your nation of bloggers. Not a bit. Not if all you're going to do is trip over provisions in your own constitution and try to convince me that the way you constructed your roof is actually my problem when you guys are the only people who can pass a constitutional amendment to fix your "roof" in the first place. Don't get me wrong, you're as welcome to come here and discuss as anyone else. But don't misrepresent your purpose. It makes people here think you regard them as fools when they're the guys who know your own constitution better than you do. And it's faulty. It doesn't give you the protection you think you deserve. Fix it.

BlitzKrieg

I wasn't complaining when your government decision affected me.

what about when their government decision paid what was it? 56 million euros for dell to move to poland away from Ireland?

did you complain then?

you know if we are going to talk about all this brotherly love between eu states

(disclaimer this is not a dig at any EU state or a call to bitch about dell/poland etc just pointing out Polish decisions have affected Ireland and we had no say either.)

gissmoo

Our - country Poland is run by comunist traitors, thieves etc. Mass media are in hands of them. They are manipulating whole society (and democratic system is not really good - read Aristoteles) If you tjink tha real polish people, sons of that who gave their lives for freedom of Poland, have something to say youre wrong. If WE Poles could run our country for ourselves, we wouldnt appeal to Irish People. The problem is that from '89 we havent got a real independency. In 2007 Poland shut down post soviet Secret Service (!) and that was a politic of ridiculed in all over the world PIS and Kaczyński brothers. Do u know what that mean?? Poland is infiltrated by foreign secret services - they only care for thei bussinesses.. Lech Wales walesa was UB, SB (comunist) agent calle Bolek and whole pierestroika, whole transformation was designed by comunists. That are facts tha we couldnt see untill now - untill 2006-2009. Thats almost 20 year period - weve been manipulated.

I wouldnt be here if the things in my country hadn't go wrong. maybe your constitution is good enough. Polish politics elite isnt good and our constitution isnt good. I dont interfere with your own politics but i ask You - people of Ireland to do us - real polish people a favour. If a EU Superstate wuld come true Poland will be sold.. Thats true.. Now we havent got much - they sold everything.. Now they're trying to sell our independance. In our times there wuld be no wars as we ve seen them. There would be a economic partitions of countries. Ireland is also weak enough to deassemble your independence.. What would you do if thay one day will have next idea to implement? maybe the'll ask? maybe not?

I see that elite of this forum (mods, admins) is stricte PRO EU. Users rather not.. Its sad. Whre is your political conciousness? maybe some other arguments have place?

BlitzKrieg

soooooo


we are not gonna talk about the treaty?

meglome

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

soooooo


we are not gonna talk about the treaty?

And I don't think he had ever any intention of.

gissmoo

There are no others users as mods and admins? I feel a little bit cernered. I feel like you only see for reason to close the topic. Let me discuss with users - not mods or admins. My friends whose are trying to write her are telling me that they are banned so fast that they cn talk with you. Wats the problem with you? Someone has paid you to do that????

You dont get my argumentation? The methods of elite of EU have nothing with democracy.. If they mustnt they wouldnt be asking for your vote. Thats not even deformed democracy.. Democracy is dialog. See what they ve done with transparents "refferendum" in EU Parliamnt? Persons as Shultz, Poetering, and others lef-hand "politics" are comunists, totalitarists - theyre trockists. Thats why the lisbo ntreaty making superstate of EU isnt good thing. We cannot vote but we can beg you to vote to NO. You cant see dangers? Must go sleep - see u tomorrow.